4K REDCODE™ RAW + Final Cut Studio 2 red.com announcement

[Tonaci Tran]

Just noticed this at red.com

4K REDCODE™ RAW video can be opened directly in the upcoming release of Final Cut Studio 2. Additionally, REDCINE™ can export files to the Apple ProRes Codec 10-bit codec for broadcast quality production.

So I wonder if this confirms immediate support out of the box?

[Graeme Nattress]

No, not in FCS2, but a post-shipping update for full functionality. FCP, being a quicktime app, will work with REDCODE data today. Remember "crossing the line" was cut on FCP 5.1.4.

Graeme

[Antoine Baumann]

Hello Graeme,

I don't really get the difference between what you can do now in FCP 5.1 (apparently edit directly with the 4k REDCODE RAW files) and what you will be able to do with FCP 6.x

Thanks,
antoine.

[Graeme Nattress]

RT enabled, FXplug for RAW control & import interface. Things like that.

Graeme

[Antoine Baumann]

Thanks a lot Graeme,

But just to play real time and edit (cut) one stream 4k REDCODE RAW, you can do it in FCP 5.x?

antoine.

[Graeme Nattress]

Sure - Thats what they did for Crossing the Line.

Graeme

[Emery Wells]

It has been a source of confusion for myself as well, thanks for clearing this up Graeme.

[Stephen Gentle]

I thought that the QT file doesn't have the partial decompression (where it automatically makes a 1 or 2K proxy at playback time), but FCP 6.x will. So you'll be able to edit 4K on a laptop with FCP 6, but you'll need a pretty beefy machine to edit with 5.1.4. And the FXplug gives you the kind of image control you get in REDCINE.

Is this right?

[Graeme Nattress]

No. Remember that Crossing the line was done in 5.1.4 with the rapid 1k downconvert in Quicktime.

Graeme

[Stephen Gentle]

No. Remember that Crossing the line was done in 5.1.4 with the rapid 1k downconvert in Quicktime.

Does that mean that we'll be able to, say, use RED footage in After Effects.. on a laptop?

[OwenR]

Still confussed it still seems less than clear

Was crossing the line edited at 4K Or 1k?? "with the rapid downconvert...."

[david farland]

Owen....explained here! (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=32565&postcount=11)......traditional offline/online

cheers,

[Brook Willard]

I'm guessing [guessing!] that the rapid downconvert takes the 4K REDCODE RAW file and debayers it to 1K on the fly... so you can see the 1K even though the 4K is there "behind" it.

[Graeme Nattress]

Good answer Brook! That's exactly right. It's the concept of built-in proxyness.

Graeme

[Brian D. Goff]

Good answer Brook! That's exactly right. It's the concept of built-in proxyness.

Graeme

If I had let's say a 4k screen atached to my macbook pro, then it would be possible to edit "online" in 4k, is that correct?

[Simon Blackledge]

No. Not correct.

From a 4k file/clip on your macbook/red drive, FCP is reading 1K files.. so your monitor will show 1k.

If you need to monitor the camera at a high res take a feed straight out.

If you need to check after, something like the AJA io/hd would be useful. Use 2K in FCP from redcode (poss not realtime) and use the IO/HD to downsample to 1080P into a 1080 monitor.

Hey Graeme, you know what would be cool.. an option to monitor in RedCine. Like final cut can output using aja/blackmagic.. is this possible?

s

[Brook Willard]

Good answer Brook! That's exactly right. It's the concept of built-in proxyness.

Graeme

*whew* I got it right! Now will it base the proxy scale upon the beefiness of one's machine? 1K, 2K?

[Ralph Oshiro]

I heard the phrase, "REDCODE has . . . embedded QT 1K and 2K proxies," at NAB. Now, I certainly may have that screwed up somehow. Please correct, elaborate, anyone.

[Petr Dvorak]

I am just unsure where is the slowest part in workflow and how it differ for 1080p, 2K and 4K output? And how slow it is?

[Chris Gearhart]

*whew* I got it right! Now will it base the proxy scale upon the beefiness of one's machine? 1K, 2K?

I assumed it was user set. If you set it too high, the machine will bog.

[Chris Gearhart]

I heard the phrase, "REDCODE has . . . embedded QT 1K and 2K proxies," at NAB. Now, I certainly may have that screwed up somehow. Please correct, elaborate, anyone.


Just contributing my ignorance, here, but Redcode is wavelet based--of the same stripe as map/satelite imaging technology. So, if you go to google maps, for instance, then hit satelite image, then zoom in, it will automatically re-resolve the image for that level of detail. (You can usually see a delay where your house looks pixelated for a moment after zooming).

So, unless there is some automatic step/increment value-limit in the code, the scale should be, well, scalable. I assume most times you will choose industry standard scales, but theoretically you can just dial in the detail and get almost instantaneous re-resolving.

The QT stuff, and someone correct me, is more for re-coding to another codec, no?

[Cail Young]

*whew* I got it right! Now will it base the proxy scale upon the beefiness of one's machine? 1K, 2K?

From what I've seen elsewhere, the camera generates QT reference movies with preset proxy settings for you - you open one of those and it performs the partial debayer at the specified size.

[P Andersson]

looking at 1K rushes on a laptop, do you zoom in to show the full 4K resolution when the time line is stopped
or is it a simple right click or something that pulls up that frame at full res to view detail in another viewer window

[Simon Blackledge]

suspect you need to re-connect ya media to show full 4k..

mind.. it would be great to have a proxy/dynamic setting for recode in fcp.. plays at 1k but on stop shows another you select 2k or 4k etc..

[Brook Willard]

...that pulls up that frame at full res to view detail in another viewer window

Something like this isn't useful at this point... because no monitor can display the full resolution.

Unless you're just talking about zooming in, but that's a Graeme question.

[Graeme Nattress]

I don't have an answer on that for you yet.

Graeme

[Mark L. Pederson]

I don't have an answer on that for you yet.

Graeme


crazy idea:

you could do a seperate utility (let's call it CHECK 4K FRAME) - specifically designed for viewing an individual frame(s) and PORTIONS of frame(s) on set - in full res - based on limitations of monitor you have - this way you could side-step building more goodies into the QT component -

You would use QT to scrub or play the 1K extraction (which is referencing the 4K RAW media) - when you find the frame you want - you would enter (or cut and paste) the TC into a window on the CHECK 4K FRAME APP -

this APP would then display as much of the frame in full res as your on-set monitor would support - and allow you to move and position the frame so you sould inspect the entire frame in full res even if your monitor is less than 4K (they all will be for a "while") -

just thinking out loud - but I would like the ability to easily "check" or "inspect" a frame in full res on set -

[Nick Shaw]

Great idea. How about building this kind of functionality into another FXPlug for FCP? If the REDFX plugin can access the original 12-bit RAW data in FCP, could an FXPlug also access the 4k hidden in the reference proxy?

If within the FCP time line you could temporarily drop an effect on a clip which would let you see the image pixel for pixel from the 4k, and maybe also pan it around in your 2k/1k proxy frame, that could be very useful.

[Rob Lohman]

Nick: the FCP architecture does not allow for such things


The QT stuff, and someone correct me, is more for re-coding to another codec, no?

Why? I'm using it to review stuff shot (in QT player), edit offline or perhaps edit an online in a lower resolution

[Mark L. Pederson]

Nick: the FCP architecture does not allow for such things

I like it as a seperate utility app -

Rob, can you knock that out in your spare time (LOL!)

[Rob Lohman]

What spare time(*)? :)



* no, alcoholic ingest during NAB does not count ;)

[Mark L. Pederson]

I wish I could CODE - I'd pitch in ....

(oh my GOD ... did I just say I wish I could .... CODE .... somebody just shoot me now!!!)

[Simon Blackledge]

So what applet reads the 1k image from the 4k ? redcode? fcp ? redcode in fcp ?

Can't you just load the 4K and set playback to dynamic then ? so when you stop playhead its 4k.. hit play runs 1/4 rez ?

[Nick Shaw]

So what applet reads the 1k image from the 4k ? redcode? fcp ? redcode in fcp ?

Can't you just load the 4K and set playback to dynamic then ? so when you stop playhead its 4k.. hit play runs 1/4 rez ?

I think the proxy generation is done by the codec during the Quicktime decode. So dynamic resolution is not possible. The app (eg FCP) needs to see the QT movie as having a fixed resolution. Correct me if I'm wrong Rob/Graeme.

[Simon Blackledge]

Ahh got ya. Something to put in Apple's side of the court ? ;)

[P Andersson]

maybe it simply exported the particular frame to jpg or tiff over to photoshop

but the best would be to do the simple "apple option 0" to get pixel by pixel view that you then could move around in by holding down the spacebar in full screen "F-F-F" view and zoom back by "apple 0" like in photoshop

(" " = quick commands in photoshop)

[Mark L. Pederson]

maybe it simply exported the particular frame to jpg or tiff over to photoshop

but the best would be to do the simple "apple option 0" to get pixel by pixel view that you then could move around in by holding down the spacebar in full screen "F-F-F" view and zoom back by "apple 0" like in photoshop

(" " = quick commands in photoshop)

Pretty damn sure that if you export a frame from FCP while cutting in 1K extraction mode - you'll get a 1K file - the ref QT is working at a fixed resolution -

That's why I was suggesting a seperate app that would access the 4K REDCODE RAW frame via TC

[Nick Shaw]

If somebody feels like coding it, it might be possibe to have FCP source clip midi timecode routed to a background application (like Digital Heaven's 'Big Time' does) and you could flip over to that app and press a 'refresh' key, and it would display the 4k pixel for pixel.

Any programmers out there feel like having a go?

[Mark L. Pederson]

that's cool - but I think it's much more useful to see pixel for pixel on set - rather then in the edit room - and I don't intend to run FCP on set -

so, for me, if I could just play/scrub a lower res QT extraction on a laptop - stop on the frame I want to see in 4K - if I can just copy and paste that TC into another app that pulls up the frame in full res - and allow me to move the frame around to view any part of the frame pre monitors resolution - I'm rockin - but you could make this little utility application be able to run fully independent and ALSO allow it to chase FCP TC ...

p.s. - I dig Digital Heaven's stuff -

[P Andersson]

I think it's much more useful to see pixel for pixel on set - rather then in the edit room - and I don't intend to run FCP on set -

yes absolutely as fast and easy to get as deep into the image as possible,

that would mean you scrub through a take on set, in REDCINE or QUICKTIME or what.

So you stop the timeline, and then that image would perhaps automatically get loaded full res into RAM in case you choose to view it, kind of like adobe bridge or aperture. That lupe thing is cool to for an even faster detail view.

I guess really what you want is to check the focus on somebody's eye.

If there was a fast way to flip through a couple of different presaved curves or look settings, just by hitting a quick key that would be extra sweet. (push L you get a flat look that shows all the color information, push L again you get an approximation of the final color, push L again it is BW or just the green channel or whatever)

[Mark L. Pederson]

yes absolutely as fast and easy to get as deep into the image as possible,

that would mean you scrub through a take on set, in REDCINE or QUICKTIME or what.



Okay, I was just thinking this through while at the Apple store on 59th Street changing a bogus laptop battery.

FORGET what I said about a seperate app -

YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE PIXEL FOR PIXEL IN 4K IN REDCINE -

You could PLAY in RT on set in a proxy extraction (1K should work fine on a Mac Book Pro) - but you can SCRUB the actual 4K REDCODE RAW in REDCINE, and make your adjustments - look at the highlight and shadow detail, etc. - so, as long as REDCINE can display the 4K image in "ACTUAL SIZE", pixel fo pixel - and you can move the image around to see all of it in full res - then we are all golden - everything we need on set in REDCINE - and I would not be surprised if that is already the case - if not, should not be much code to fix -

so dismiss my earlier posts!

[Rob Lohman]

Yes, that is already in REDCINE. You can hit a toggle to switch between 1:1 and fit to screen for example. Obviously you can pan around and zoom in / out.

[Mark L. Pederson]

That rocks!

Man, you gotta work hard to think of stuff the RED Team doesn't have covered already.

You guys really do kick ass!

[Nick Shaw]

It would still be cool though if there was a quick and easy way to match frame instantly from the FCP time line back to the same frame in REDCINE

[P Andersson]

It would still be cool though if there was a quick and easy way to match frame instantly from the FCP time line back to the same frame in REDCINE

yeah making sure the details are OK and stuff will happen on set

then you will do the same from the NLE, this time you might have a window open in REDCINE and another in your FCP and how awesome if they mirrored each other when you stopped the timeline

best would be if it happened within FCP directly

[lance617]

RT enabled, FXplug for RAW control & import interface. Things like that.
Graeme

Graeme could you point me to someone who has a comprehensive understanding of the RED 4K and Apple FCP workflow. Apple is waiting for my signature on an order but I haven't gotten a clear answer on the workflow. I can's seem to get a comprehensive workflow from them using RED image capture. Here's the background for our project:

We're shooting (film equv. 860,000 ft) a feature for theatrical release and will be doing a film-out. I expect to be using 6-8 Reds (24 fps) and two Phantom HD (50, 90, 112 fps overcrank). I will push the dynamic range limits of the Red for some INT dark night scenes with dark complected African-Amer actors along with muzzle flashes and need the as much detail as possible so I can stretch the blacks in post if I need to do so. This means capturing 4K 4:4:4 Raw or 4K 4:4:4 w/lossless or near lossless compression.

Obviously, we'll be editing 2K/metafiles, but we need to render the 4K files. We intend to use 6 G5 DuelQuad w/FCP, Shake, Maya, Motion, and Color and have a 140TB SAN to house the data. What I'm looking for is the mechanisms to build the render command lines w/EDLs, etc. to submit to a render farm w at least 32 64bit processors. Since we will be editing and rendering during the shoot we can make quick adjustments to LUTs and scene/camera profiles (the whole point in shooting digital).

Thanks for your help.

Lance Flores
Mockingbird Films

[Tonaci Tran]

" I can's seem to get a comprehensive workflow from them using RED image capture."

Maybe because everything is still under development and the camera isn't shipping yet?

[lance617]

" I can's seem to get a comprehensive workflow from them using RED image capture."
Maybe because everything is still under development and the camera isn't shipping yet?

Just got a message from the Apple engineering people a moment ago to work the issue, we should have a solution by the end of next week.

I thought I addressed Graeme Nattress though. But thanks for your rude non-informative answer Mr. Tonaci who ever you are. Should I ever need a non-productive solution to an issue I'll be sure to ask you directly.

Anyway, Graeme, we should have this issue resolved shortly and will share any information with you not covered by an NDA, but I suspect you may have the same.

Thanks

[Finner]

I thought I addressed Graeme Nattress though. But thanks for your rude non-informative answer Mr. Tonaci who ever you are. Should I ever need a non-productive solution to an issue I'll be sure to ask you directly.

Yo lance617, you post twice here and your second post treats someone this way???. People on this forum help each other and Tonaci is very knowledgable and has helped many other new to the forum like yourself before. In this forum others pass on the info they know and often it covers the bases of that question. There are a lot of highly talented people on here and you have no idea who you may be talking to.

By the way if you treat others this way best of luck with your film because I figure you will have a tough time attracting anyone with skill and self respect willing to work for or with you.

[Graeme Nattress]

At the moment the entire FCP workflow is fluid, and not tied down. We're still working on a number of aspects of it, so cannot give definate answers at this time.

[lance617]

" I can's seem to get a comprehensive workflow from them using RED image capture."

Maybe because everything is still under development and the camera isn't shipping yet?


Yo Dickhead617, you post twice here and your second post has this crap in it. People on this forum help each other and Tonaci is very knowledgable and has helped many other newbees like yourself before.


I see that your eloquence in speech certainly defines you as does your comprehension of the Mr. Tonaci's message. If Mr. Tonaci is as knowledgeable as you advance, then his glibness is all the more trite. He provided no usable knowledge in his post other than he had no solution nor could he point me to someone who did, to a question I posed directly to Graeme, not he.



In this forum others pass on the info they know and often it covers the bases of that question. You can come here talking big about how many cameras you will be using and that you are some kind of big time guy but you should try and find a little class. There are a lot of highly talented people on here and you have no clue who you are talking to.


My my. Do you have to put a brick on the other shoulder to balance that big chip you're carrying on the other side? Or do you just use yo vulgarities to compensate? Seems like the unsolicited respondent should have used a little class when interjecting himself into the conversation and simply said that he was not aware of any published solutions, rather than issuing such a rude interjection.

Again, the question was posed to a RED corporate member; and for him, as well as for Apple management & engineering, describing the complexity of the shoot which includes resources and the demands is essential to understanding the problem to be resolved. As I did not pose either the questions nor the shoot specifications to you or Mr. Tonaci I don't know why the specs of our production should evoke such childish emotional responses from people I have not engaged in conversation. You're right about having no clue. Don't have a clue who you are. Don't know you Mr. Finner nor have I ever heard of you in the context of digital technology, semiconductors, computer technology, nor mathematics, the fields of my career. So why would I pose the question to either of you. I didn't.



By the way if you treat others this way good luck with your film because I doubt you will have anyone with skill and self respect willing to work for or with you.

I have met Graeme and he is a class act something you could learn from and I hope he see's what a waste of time answering any question for you would be.

Actually I have the respect of my crew who are all among the finest and well experienced in the industry. I have only met Mr. Nattress in other forums where he was being frustrated from unprovoked personal attacks by a few yahoos. But I'm sure he knows our Cinematographers or at least our DoP.

Ahh ... but it appears that Mr. Nattress has answered my inquiry with a civil and professorial response.

It was interesting getting to know you Mr. Finner. I hold no animosity toward you, but I must say, those are some interesting briefs you wear, looks uncomfortable.

[Graeme Nattress]

Thing is, if you ask me personally a question via email or PM, you'll get an answer. On the forum, if you direct a question at me, others will answer also to help out the RED team because we're really busy. If I catch the post, I'll try and answer myself, but the whole idea of the forum is that it's public, and that means answers from forum members as well as me or other RED people.

Graeme

[lance617]

At the moment the entire FCP workflow is fluid, and not tied down. We're still working on a number of aspects of it, so cannot give definate answers at this time.

Thanks Graeme. That's all I needed. Our DoP is on the list to get his REDs in one of the first production runs so we can begin working on a solution. I was hoping you guys and Apple had already worked out the 4K render issue. We have a solution from another project we built a Linux render farm for a set of 8K cameras for a client. We'd have to begin converting the software in the next couple of weeks to have it ready on time. Maybe next week we can find a solution with the Apple folks. I hope so, don't look forward to going through software & firmware cycles, yuck. I'll use personal correspondence in the future. Best to you. Lance

[Graeme Nattress]

Anyone with an early RED will, I'm sure, get great help to make it work. It's in our best interest for it to be that way.

Yes, if you need ME, best to email graeme@red.com or PM or if you want to put it out public for a wide range of answers and discussions as I don't know everything, post it here.

Thanks,

Graeme

[Finner]

I see that your eloquence in speech certainly defines you as does your comprehension of the Mr. Tonaci's message.
Tonaci gave you the same information as Graeme did.



why the specs of our production should evoke such childish emotional responses from people I have not engaged in conversation. You're right about having no clue. Don't have a clue who you are.

It was emotional yes and thats why I edited it and a little childish but hey I call a "spade a spade" and a ... (you get the idea).



Don't know you Mr. Finner nor have I ever heard of you in the context of digital technology, semiconductors, computer technology, nor mathematics, the fields of my career. So why would I pose the question to either of you. I didn't.

I see, you have had a job that you have not had to deal with others and never learned to "play nice".




Ahh ... but it appears that Mr. Nattress has answered my inquiry with a civil and professorial response.
Again, he gave you the same answer tonaci did.



You are right I was rude and thats why I edited it. In fact I wish I would have worded it differently off the bat. As far as pretentious attitudes and simply looking down on others I'll leave you their on your perch.

I really think you lashed out and took tonaci's post poorly as he was only trying to help.



It was interesting getting to know you Mr. Finner. I hold no animosity toward you, but I must say, that's some interesting briefs you wear, looks uncomfortable.

No animosity here either. In fact if you would like to borrow a pair of my briefs I would be happy to send some your way. Let me warn you though they drive the ladies mad!:turned:

[Tonaci Tran]

"thanks for your rude non-informative answer Mr. Tonaci who ever you are. Should I ever need a non-productive solution to an issue I'll be sure to ask you directly."

It is interesting when people throw in "whoever you are" as if to suggest that because I am not a famous director/dp that I am all of a sudden inferior in some way.

It's ironic that you accuse me of being rude and childish. I suppose you follow an "eye for an eye" philosphy.

I didn't feel the need to get into details, but considering your pissed off reaction, I might as well explain.

If you notice I started my sentence with "maybe" since I am not a RED employee, I am not in a position to answer straight away that everything is still under development... but "maybe" this is the reason for the lack of a COMPREHENSIVE WORKFLOW. As Finner pointed out, Graeme confirmed that I was correct.

Finner, thanks for getting my back!