Red Final Cut workflow

[Chris Kenny]

I've got another post (http://www.indie4k.com/archives/42) up on Indie4K, this one summarizing what I've been able to pick up (and a bit of speculation) about how a finishing a Red project in FCP might work. As with last time, I'd be interested in any corrections from Red folks.

Thanks.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Chris, thanks. Very good.

[Billy McCannon]

Thanks Chris, that’s very concise and very useful.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Great post Chris. I'd like to add the following observations:

#1: We all know that "1K extraction (1/4 scale)" QT reference files are created for FCP RT editing - we do not know if we are going to get, or can just create ourselves - "2K extraction (1/2 scale)" QT reference files - I assume it is possible, and assume we should be able to do it - but it would be nice to get a confimation on that from Graeme

#2: The other variation of the 2K workflow I would recommend for the short term, while various things shake out in Apple/Red land - is to "develop" in REDCINE and TRANSCODE all your footage to 2K ProRes - now, all your orginal 4K REDCODE RAW sits on a Raid 3 or 5 protected storage (or onto AIT5 or LTO3 tape, etc.) and you can cut away in 2K off of any firewire drive - you could still pull effects shots via REDCINE in 4K and export to DPX, etc. for FX shots and then render out your final comps in 2K Prores - the reason I would suggest this workflow for 2K is that I suspect that FCP/Color will be optimized and stable in ProRes - sure, you will be 422 until you are in Color - then you will be color grading in 32 bit float and you can render your final output to 444 SR if you wanted to

#3: What you intend to color grade in has the biggest impact in workflow IMHO. As far as Color:

A. As you said, we don't know if Color will (or even intends to) support a REDCODE RAW timeline - I suspect they will want to get there - they would be crazy not too - but considering at NAB they could not get faster than 18fps in HD with only ONE secondary - I can assure you, unless they change hardware and lots of code - adding the de-bayering - it's gonna be SLOW - but I have learned to "never say never" - and if Apple sees the light and heads down the Nvidia path .... until then - 2K - not real time

B. IMHO the biggest issue with Color (other than speed performance - but for the price, I guess you can't complain) is the fact that if you choose the workflow you describe on your blog, or a 2K ProRes workflow - and you color grade in Color - you do not have any EASY option for RE-RENDERING the film in 4K with the grades you made in color - now, yes, I know it's TOTALLY possible for them to do it - and I can think of a HACK ot two to make it work - and it's DONE if they support a REDCODE RAW TIMELINE (which SCRATCH already does) - but right now, we don't know, they haven't shipped the app and I am sure they are still coding away. I just want to point out that based on current info - If you use Color and then sell your movie and want to film out or project at a major festival in 4K (I predict that this will be the case by 2009) ... you may have an issue getting all that work that took you FOREVER in Color to 4K renders ... we will see ...

#3: I am going to assume that the Kona 3 will PLAY OUT the 1K extraction from FCP in real time - I MUST HAVE THAT - (if not - they should hook that up asap) because for "screeners" and "layoffs" during a long for edit - I suspect that a DVD ENCODE from a 1K extraction timeline referencing 4K Redcode Raw will take ... a long time ....

[Rob Lohman]

Chris: looks okay. Some (little) details might change, but for now it looks good.

Mark, to answer some of your questions:

1) we haven't fully nailed down which resolution reference files will be created. Any input from anyone is appreciated.

4) [your second #3] yes it does, if you have a fast enough machine. I have this running here at home and at the office. I would expect a 1K to DVD encode shouldn't take that long, will be interesting to try that some day :)

[Jeremy Newmark]

1) we haven't fully nailed down which resolution reference files will be created. Any input from anyone is appreciated.

1k and 2k right out of the gate would be great, with more options in future updates.

jeremy

[Mark L. Pederson]

1) we haven't fully nailed down which resolution reference files will be created. Any input from anyone is appreciated.


1/16th, 1/8th, 1/4th, 1/2 scales!!!

100% should have 1/2 (2K) and 1/4 (1K) -

but 1/8th + 1/16th will be VERY handy for quick reference on laptops, etc. -

Not sure what CPU is needed for realtime 1/8th vs 1/16th playback from QT - obviously, I would nix 1/16th and be happy with 1/8th - assuming you don't need much CPU power for 1/8th -

[Chris Kenny]

Chris: looks okay. Some (little) details might change, but for now it looks good.


Thanks to for the input, Rob.



1) we haven't fully nailed down which resolution reference files will be created. Any input from anyone is appreciated.


1K, 2K, and of course the full 4K (to feed into Shake, etc.), would seem like the obvious choices. Lower resolution options probably aren't really necessary these days.

Well, actually... does extracting lower resolution frames require less information to be read from disk, or does it still require reading the entire ~27 MB/s from disk, before information is discarded? If the former, I could see low resolutions being pretty useful for people who want to e.g. work with a lot of simultaneous streams from a slow hard drive (cutting multicam stuff on a laptop in the field, for instance).

[Adrian T.]

1) we haven't fully nailed down which resolution reference files will be created. Any input from anyone is appreciated.

Let the user decide which reference files he wants to be created right on camera.

But I expect REDCINE to be able to create missing or additional QT reference files from REDCODE native files.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

1) we haven't fully nailed down which resolution reference files will be created. Any input from anyone is appreciated.

:)

I think 1K for your laptop and 2K for the desktop would be just fine. I'd like to monitor the 2K full res on a mac 30" screen. Ideal FCP workflow would be to cut using 1K reference files, and playback full screen using 2K

[Simon Blackledge]

Is there a specific reason why all these as 1/2's 1/4's etc ? Is this just a fact of skipping every other sample point.. then every 2 etc..

I take it proxy at 1080 and then 720 is not going to happen ?

If so is 2k full 2k ? or actually 2000 dead on?
s

[Rob Lohman]

It's divided by half on the horizontal & vertical each time. That's how wavelets work.

[Simon Blackledge]

ah got ya..

cheers

\\s