updates for PC workflow?

[keghnan]

hello,
any AVID updates for PC workflow?
if not, are we going to see any relief in PC workflow anytime soon?

Thanks

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

hello,
any AVID updates for PC workflow?
if not, are we going to see any relief in PC workflow anytime soon?

Thanks

Not sure what you mean by relief? The SDK is out and many 3rd parties have it. CineForm has had a working solution for a long time now for Mac and PC.

R3D's can now be imported natively into Premiere Pro CS4.

Here is a link to the page for Red/Avid support, on the bottom right there is a tab you can click on to receive updates.

http://www.avid.com/red/

[keghnan]

yeah, but SDk is for Premier right?
I am talking about Avid.
my concern is that I have a PC workstation MC2.6 software only and I will shoot a music video next month, and my concern is that my equipment can't handle it.
my workstation is 670 precision, 4GB ram, quadro FX 4500, 500Boot and 500SATA raid1.
I heard that for better quality image, redrushes is much better than Redcine, and Redcine works for PC only. so what is the best solution for me? shoot 4K or 2K, I know for undercrank I will go 2K, what about steady or tracking shots?
note that the output will be DVD.
I really appreciate your advices.

Thanks in advance

[Christopher Grant Harvey]

SDK is for all vendors not only Premiere. Besides the plugin is not 100% Adobe, it is more a RED plugin but with a lot of help from Adobe.

Read through the AVID workflow guide included in the link I gave you, it will answer your questions and more.

[MichaelP]

We are working with SDK to get some PC solutions out soon. MetaFuze will be the first to get the treatment to create DNxHD directly and natively rather than go through QuickTime first. We just received SDK with audio support so we decided to delay a bit to include that as well. If you want to start getting familiar with MetaFuze in its original version go to www.avid.com/metafuze

Michael

[keghnan]

is there step by step guide using Metafuze?
cause now I got more confused.
so let me get this straight for SD DVD output:
1-Load R3D into Redcine.
2-Color correct, decide aspect ratio then Export as DPX.
3-Import into Metafuze.
4-Export as MXF or DNxHD? here I am confused.
5-Import into Avid MC.
6-Edit, ad visual effects if needed.
7-Export to Sorenson Squeeze.
8-Compress to MPEG 2.
9-Burn to DVD.

am I in the right track? is ALE or XML involved in this process?
please advise me.

Thanks

[MichaelP]

Once MetaFuze supports R3D directly you will most likely skip steps 1-3. MetaFuze will create MAX wrapped DNxHD directly. You drop these into your MediaFile folder and start editing. MetaFuze will take LUTs and an RLX file from Red Alert.

If your needs today are to only work in HD for SD DVD delivery I would create DNxHD 175x QT from REDCINE, use either MetaCheater to create an ALE or the XML to ALE convertor from Avid. The metadata is only there if you need to conform out to another system If you are doing everything in Avid, then just import the QT DNxHD files without XML or ALE. For now, all the timecodes will be 00:00:00:00 but that may not be an issue for you.

Michael

[keghnan]

Great, I feel much comfort now.
one quick question though, is the quality going to be the same as the original shot or I would expect some loss of resolution?

I appreciate your help.
Thanks

[keghnan]

I'm sorry loss of quality what I meant to say.
And when do you think Metafuze will launch to do the job that you described above?

Thanks

[MichaelP]

There is a resolution reduction since you are going from a 3K/4K image to an HD size image then compressed to an SD MPEG2 format. You have to expect some reduction of comparitive quality along the way.

Can't when MetaFuze will be available - being a public company, we can't speak beyond current quarter boundaries.

Michael

[keghnan]

I know the resolution loss when you go Mpeg2, but my question was from
3k,4K to HD 1080. export as DNxHD do we lose resolution or quality?

another question. some local TV stations ask for the file of the project that they air through their editing suite timeline. in this case what is the best format we can get them, lossless and small file? any ideas?

I understand the corporate policies. but do you think there is a hope with in a month? sorry to be pushy.

Thanks in advance

[MichaelP]

From 2K to 1080 is not too much of a resolution loss. You also lose some color information since HD in Avid is 4:2:2 unless you want to finish in HD-RGB in Avid DS. Avid DS will also let you finish in 2K and 4K but you will still need to deliver an HD or SD broadcast master anyway. Much like television programs shooting film, you are protecting your assets as a high resolution RGB format to create better HD/SD image by a concept called super-sampling and you have an archive for future use that will meet whatever broadcast standard comes down the road in the next decade or so.

When you say "air through their editing suite timeline" what system are they using? Usually "small and lossless" don't go hand in hand.

As far as MetaFuze, I would guess in Q1 of 2009.

Michael

[keghnan]

I did learn something new here, super-sampling. is this the same situation in FCP? cause I know some studios use FCP systmes for their editorial, or even some movies have been cut with FCP, but do they finish in FCP?

so basically if we want to reserve the quality and colors, we send from MC to DS, right?
well my question would be, do we open the same MC project with DS? or do we have to export the project as EDL or any other format?

finishing 2K or 4K in DS, does this mean you export the project from DS as file (reserving the resolution and the quality), and where do you export to?

another question, for future use of any project, lets say you finsihed in MC, but you need to finish in other NLE in the future, what format do you export and save the sequence as?

I think some stations use FCP and some use Premier.

sorry guys if I ask too much question, but I am so hungry for answers.

Thanks in advance

[Christoffer Glans]

For the moment I think the best workflow is the one I use at the moment for a feature film.

1. Import R3D in redcine and do the corrections needed before exporting everything to DNxHD in a resolution and debayering of choice.

2. Import every rendered clip into MetaCheater and create an ALE.

3. Import the ALE into Avid and batch import all the clips.

4. Import audio and sync, work and edit.

5. Export an XML through filmscribe

6. Use cineXML to create an XML timeline for RedCine

7. Export 2K or 4K DPX-files from the edited timeline in redcine.

8. Export EDL from Avid and online, grade, post etc.

This is by far the most easy workflow for PC and it's really fast.
It also has a number of advantages compared to mac workflow because when you do the DPX export after editing you can reframe and do a first color correction right on your offline computer.

Only drawback is that the import of DNxHD into Avid seems to be a bit too long when the file is the same as Avid uses = shouldn't be any transcoding at all.

[Henrik Cednert]

As far as MetaFuze, I would guess in Q1 of 2009.

Michael

Anythging new about the beta of MetaFuze Michael. Have gotten a couple of "i'll get back to you asap" from Vincent. But nothing concrete. We're prepping a show here and I start to get a bit nervous that we might have to look at something else then metafuze. :glare:

[MichaelP]

With the last release of the SDK, we now have access to the audio within the R3D files so we went back to support an audio workflow within MetaFuze. Please give your contact details to Vincent to forward to me and as soon as we have something "beta'ble" I will send along.

Michael

[Henrik Cednert]

Hey man =)

Sweet! He has my details already. =)


With the last release of the SDK, we now have access to the audio within the R3D files so we went back to support an audio workflow within MetaFuze. Please give your contact details to Vincent to forward to me and as soon as we have something "beta'ble" I will send along.

Michael

[Sean]

Will this lead to the much-anticipated R3D to DNxHD converter with audio? That wouldn't be through Metafuze as well, would it?

[MichaelP]

Yes, it would be through metafuze - R3D picture and sound to DNxHD...

Michael

[Sean]

Ah, okay. Will we have to go through the XML to ALE step to get DNxHD files? Or will we be able to simply select the R3D files directly and then batch convert to DNxHD?

[MichaelP]

They will be MXF wrapped DNxHD files where all the pertinent metadata will already be in the MXF. Additional metadata if desired that go beyond what MXF currently described can be exported directly as ALE and merged within the Media Composer. The latter is optional if all you want it timecode, filename, tape, etc. The ALE will have such things as RLX file used, UNC paths, etc.

Michael

[Henrik Cednert]

To me this sounds more and more like the holy grail! I so much hope that it'll be out for tests in a few days. Other wise we'll have to look at another solution. But i still hope and pray. =))))

[Kristin Stewart]

Yes, I agree with Henrik. Being able to batch convert to MXF wrapped DNxHD files (with audio tracks !) would be so practical on the PC side ! Come on Avid guys, hurry up !:usd:

[Henrik Cednert]

Hohohoho! :w00t:

Why don't I throw out some number!

Computer: 8 core Xeon 3.2 Ghz (2x5482)
Source on 2.5TB RAID 0 (8 drives).
A 4k 2:1 R3D @ 00:01:04:23 and 25fps
Transcoded to DNxHD40 (guess they mean 36?)
Debayer Low
Burn in TC and key
Letterbox Center

minutes:seconds (rouded to closest second)

Eight good: 00:49
CPU @ 70-75%

Quarter good: 01:34
CPU @ 70-75%

Half good: 08:51
CPU @ 50-55%

Half premium: 08:55
CPU @ 50-55%

Full premium: 29:24
CPU @ 40-50%

Seems to be something funky about the multithreading. Maybe that limit is in the RED-code? What do you think about the numbers folks?

Have not taken the MXF's into the Avid yet. Will soon. And then edit something and throw out an EDL and network conform it in the eQ. :shiftyph34r:

[MichaelP]

DNxHD 40 is the 25fps data rate of DNxHD 36 @ 24fps.

Michael

[Henrik Cednert]

DNxHD 40 is the 25fps data rate of DNxHD 36 @ 24fps.

Michael

Aaaah! Okay.

You have any insight in MetaFuze and how it works with the threading? I mean why the utilization of the cores go down on some of the conversions...? Have not had the time to look to deep into it yet.

[MichaelP]

I'll ask. What are you transcoding from?

Michael

[Henrik Cednert]

I'll ask. What are you transcoding from?

Michael


You mean what red files or what kid of harddrives?

Computer: 8 core Xeon 3.2 Ghz (2x5482)
Source is on 2.5TB RAID 0 (8 drives).
Sourde red-file is a 4k 2:1 R3D @ 00:01:04:23 and 25fps
Transcoded to DNxHD40 (guess they mean 36?)
Debayer Low
Burn in TC and key
Letterbox Center

[Henrik Cednert]

Might have found a bug or something. Dunno what it is really. But it seems like it cripples all the tape names for REDfiles. It removes the C in the file name so the tape name for A003_C001_071120_0001.R3D becomes A003_001_071120. That's pretty devastating once the EDL from the Avid goes to the eQ since it can't find the tape... Sure, we could manually edit the EDL's but it seems like a bug or something I'm missing out... Any clues? =)

[MichaelP]

How are you making the ALE to start with? Are you using yher Avid RECINE to ALE XSL file? Make sure you have the latest version (for now) on www.avid.com/red

Michael

[Henrik Cednert]

How are you making the ALE to start with? Are you using yher Avid RECINE to ALE XSL file? Make sure you have the latest version (for now) on www.avid.com/red

Michael

ALE? I don't do any ALE's... MetaFuze takes r3d to MXF. MXF goes in the appropriate Avid folder on the media disks and then media tool to import in the Avid. Then cut in the avid, use edl manager and the RED16 template to export to EDL. Then network conform in the eQ. :weight_lift:

Another potential bug I might have stumbled on was that MetaFuze seems to have change the timecode in the MXF's for two clips. That's why they couldn't be conformed in the eQ. And the third last clip was open on another computer and that seemed to have locked it from reading. Still investigating this though.

[MichaelP]

MetaFuze has not been released with native R3D support. Are you using some interim plug-in support with MetaFuze?

Michael

[Henrik Cednert]

MetaFuze has not been released with native R3D support. Are you using some interim plug-in support with MetaFuze?

Michael

I got it from V. After some nagging. =) We did discuss it earlier here in the thread, remember. =) It's 1.2 (Ship). Works like a charm, except the few things I wrote about here. :matrix:

[MichaelP]

I'll stick to my assessment - MetaFuze has not yet shipped for native R3D support for the very reasons you mention and a few more that I have on my list. ;)

Thanks for the early alpha feedback though.

Michael

[Henrik Cednert]

I'll stick to my assessment - MetaFuze has not yet shipped for native R3D support for the very reasons you mention and a few more that I have on my list. ;)

Thanks for the early alpha feedback though.

Michael

Oh... Early alpha. Damn. :wink: Think V also thought it was the finished product I got. If that's the case then I don't know if we dare to use it for the production as we had hoped. I guess I have to take it for a real test drive and see.

I'll send whatever bugs I find to V.

[keghnan]

MetaFuze takes r3d to MXF. MXF goes in the appropriate Avid folder on the media disks and then media tool to import in the Avid. Then cut in the avid, use edl manager and the RED16 template to export to EDL. Then network conform in the eQ.

hmm is it out?
are we missing something here?

Keghnan

[MichaelP]

It is not out. Still in development.

Michael

[Henrik Cednert]

hmm is it out?
are we missing something here?

Keghnan

It's my bad. I thought that what I got was the final release (...since that was what I was told), but as seen it wasn't. So I might just have pissed of some people even talking about it. :unsure: So my apologies for jumping the boat on this one and talking about stuffs that I might not have been allowed to talk about. :poster_oops: If it's any comfort I can only say that this application will truly roxxor you boxxor and totally streamline the pc workflow! :w00t:

And since it was an alpha I might just chime in with a wish for the final? Would be sweet if the LUT function in metafuze would work in the R3D to MXF transcode to. :tongue:

[Henrik Cednert]

Wooohooo! So the final 1.2 is out! Dunno when it was released but the build date is back in february but the folders in the zip says 2009-03-02. Been nagging on Vincent for it for quite a while but found it on their www today. =)

Some changes from the alpha regarding how it builds up tapename and so. But this new way works for us to. We add the clip name as a comment in the EDL and choose that as clipname in the eQ and choose to limit it to 16 char to get rid of the extra "_" metafuse adds.

Also seems to be some issues with the threading. It does not utilize all 8 cores to 100%. Total CPU usage is around 50-55% (dual Xeon 5482). It also feels a lot slower then the alpha version. Which I find a bit odd.

Will test more! :w00t:

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

Henrik go home have a beer ;-) , I really want to look at the tapename issue because the camroll is what I export EDL's as later in our process. Really dont want to have to change that. Looking forward to seeing results next week...

mahvo (you know who I am :-))

[Henrik Cednert]

Henrik go home have a beer ;-) , I really want to look at the tapename issue because the camroll is what I export EDL's as later in our process. Really dont want to have to change that. Looking forward to seeing results next week...

mahvo (you know who I am :-))

Hehehehe. =) Yeah the camroll is used in the RR approach if I'm not mistaken. But if we go metafuze instead of RR it wouldn't really be a problem. Then the camroll is never involved and the only real issue I can see is that we would have two different looking EDL's. But that's probably no biggie and sounds fixable. =) I might be overlooking something here though. :nerd:

I'm more worried over the speed issues. Might be a workaround if one can run it from command line and run several instances of it on same computer. That will be next weeks joy. :ninja:

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

ok cool, not at all an issue, but as I said before the clipname will be changed in the logging. So some other info would be nice that points back to the original R3D, especially with 16 charcaters then you can not go wrong

am going to check it out a bit myself on my slow but intel PC at home :-)

mahvo

[MichaelP]

I have asked that RED use the 16 char in the TAPE field rather than the Camroll moving forward. The short REEL can then be put into the Camroll. I edit the ALE file before import and swap TAPE and CAMROLL in the column section of the file.

MetaCheater allows you to select TAPE ID based on how it parses the file name.

Michael

[M Forrest]

MIchael. this little webapp will do the same thing to RedRushes ALEs automatically, you can also modify the ALE to include audio channels so you don't have to worry about doing it in MC. Thanks to Bob Maple for puting this together.
http://idolum.com/redrushes-ale.php

[MichaelP]

Very nice - we will be changing the way MetaFuze works for reel ID. The issue is that MetaFuze uses the file name found in the R3D file not the one at the directory level (which can be changed). Unfortunately, they do not match. The last two characters are made to make the filename unique only exists at the filename level.

We will change MetaFuze to give you the choice so you can match workflows.

Michael

[Marcus Vasques Osorio]

After my testing I think that Tapename is good enough, you can still get this out in an EDL and it works on most ONLINE conform and grading suites

mahvo