Plan B if there is a major delay with Red.

[Jag Sandhu]

If the Red delay is 6 months or more then I would need to put a plan B in place.

Plan A is very clear in my head.
Plan B is weak & not thought out, at the moment it is no better than sit & wait twiddling my thumbs. I think I need a better plan B.

I will hold my reservation for as long as Jim wants to build & sell the camera.

Anyone with a better plan B please share.

Jag

[Robert Sanders]

Yeah, we have an big feature film shoot schedule to start production August 1st. We're in the same boat.

We're already in massive "contingency" mode right now as it's not looking too promising to get our hands on units by our start date. We'd be willing to push our shoot dates a week or two, but my producer(s) won't budget beyond that.

So, we're looking a F900's, Vipers or an XLH1 connected to an AJA IO HD right now. Rentals on the bigger guns are WAY too high. And the DoF on the XLH1 sucks (as well as the noise floor).

So what to do?

[Laco Zamba]

My plan B: don't panic!

[Gbabymogul]

That's something i've been thinking about recently too. Plan B will probably be a wee bit more involved for me because we're seguing bizness stuff now anyway, so...Fortunately, i built in some lee way to a few projects i want to do with RED but the longer they're on an engineering hold, the more i'll have to rethink shooting with RED. They're non-conventional/shooting projects so it could get expensive to rent.

As long as RED doesn't get to be like Kinetta (don't think it will at all) then the hold should be cool.

If we're talking about a long hold then... look at renting 35mm, purchasing a used 35mm camera? I really can't justify purchasing an overpriced crappy HVX, or any other 1/3" camera when right around the corner is a 35mm sensor one.

RED is a business, so as long as they produce a great product in a decent timeline, then we'll wait as a customer. But, the project comes first. I'm excited to do more personal projects, so i hold them to a high standard. Regardless, cheerleading needs pragmatism to be a useful barometer

So, Plan B? Rent 35mm and/or marry rich. One is far more likely :)

btw, who said the hold would be a long one? I need some RED footy to keep me occupied.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgfrxZlrYR4

:beer:

[Clayton Harper]

Yeah, we have an big feature film shoot schedule to start production August 1st. We're in the same boat.

We're already in massive "contingency" mode right now as it's not looking too promising to get our hands on units by our start date. We'd be willing to push our shoot dates a week or two, but my producer(s) won't budget beyond that.

So, we're looking a F900's, Vipers or an XLH1 connected to an AJA IO HD right now. Rentals on the bigger guns are WAY too high. And the DoF on the XLH1 sucks (as well as the noise floor).

So what to do?

I think Silicon Imaging's 2K is still preferable to the F900 or Viper if it comes down to it.

http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/products.html

There's also good old Super 16. Love me some Super 16. Go Super 16 and lay off to HDCAM-SR and do a poor man's DI when Apple ships Color. I have seen a good many low-budget films onlined at 1920X1080 and then printed back to film. Check out 12 and Holding directed by Michael Cuesta.

[Kevin Halverson]

I have a few plan B's in the works...

"offhollywood" I would love to learn about your 2 pref conversion experience. I have been lusting after the new Aaton Penelope ever since it was announced, but its delivery dates are also still a bit uncertain.

Perhaps it is time to look into plan C...

[Robert Sanders]

I think Silicon Imaging's 2K is still preferable to the F900 or Viper if it comes down to it.

http://www.siliconimaging.com/DigitalCinema/products.html

There's also good old Super 16. Love me some Super 16. Go Super 16 and lay off to HDCAM-SR and do a poor man's DI when Apple ships Color. I have seen a good many low-budget films onlined at 1920X1080 and then printed back to film. Check out 12 and Holding directed by Michael Cuesta.

It didn't even occur to me to consider the SI2K. Thank you for that. We'll be looking into it first thing Monday morning.

[Mike Prevette]

Wow, I can't believe you guys would base your project around a piece of gear. I love the idea of the Red and all, but at the end of the day it is just another hammer in your belt. I know a ton of rental houses that will give you a killer deal on some super16 packages. They aren't shooting off the shelves right now.

_mike

[Rick Darge]

PLAN B: HVX + Brevis35


yum

[jaadgy akanni]

PLAN B: HVX + Brevis35


yum

Plan B: GY-HD200U + Brevis

[Chris Burket]

Check out the Silicon Imaging/PS Technik 2k camera. The Arri D20 goes for around $3,500/day for the body. Genesis is around $12,000/week fully kitted. They are pricey... I think the Viper makes the best images I've ever seen from a 2/3 inch camera. If you want something cheaper, I will say that the panavised F900 + digi primo zooms will give you some beautiful images. You could also use a Varicam, or HDX900 with fujinon cine lenses. Their 10x is beautiful. George Lucas and Rodriguez used it frequently. I think the HDX900 and Fujinon cine lesnes would be the most bang for your buck.

I would never hold off production to wait on a camera. I doubt anyone who would buy it/distribute it/watch it will care what you shot it on. Just need a good story...

[Mike]

My sequence number is in the 300s, scheduled to get the camera in August initially.

I am shooting my feature in December, i just hope the release of the camera will not delay that long.
Otherwise the shoot will have to wait as we are working on limited budget and having our own camera will save a lot of cost.

[Priyesh P.]

I think the most affordable and flexible way would be to go with the Silicon imaging SI 2K. Otherwise there´s nothing left that will be as flexible.

[Gunleik Groven]

SI 2k looks good.

I'm gettin a HPX 500 - for convenience.
But probably will/would independent of the red for different fields of use.

(Nope Gibby, I'm not suggestioning that the Red cannot be used to anything the HPX can -;)

Gunleik

[LighthouseMEdia]

Yeah I'm looking at the HPX-500 as an alternative as well...

[David Battistella]

This thread seems like a bit of a fishing expedition. The RED will be ready when it is ready. We are all excited about this camera and we all want it in our hands. I can see how planning to use it based on release dates is tempting, but it's hard to depend on that when they havenot even shipped one unit.

As far as the alternatives go, there really is no alternative. How can you contemplate any other camera when you are looking at RED. There is no other camera with this feature set available. If you are looking at the Panasonic or JVC camera's as your major investment then I believe you might be kicking yourself for years to come. Neither of those camera's are even in the same league.

People in this thread are contemplating this camera to replace a Panavision set up and then others are thinking that an HVX 200 will do the job if they don't buy a RED. Come on.

If you can't wait, go buy your other camera today and end the insanity.

David

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Plan B for me = continue using HVX200. Rent Panny HPX2000 or Varicam when needed. Oh, wait, that's what I do now. My RED will get here when it gets here. Won't be shooting any features or my more ambitious personal projects until I have RED, but those can wait a bit... I haven't tried the HPX2000 just yet, but I may be renting one next week. Looks like a nice camera overall.

[OwenR]

Hi

We're looking at plan B as well! as we plan to shoot October 07 now if red was
around no alternative! but putting back the shoot is not an option....

plan B HVX200 with SGPro or other adaptor and 35mm lenses which we can then use on a Red System in the future...

Which 35mm adaptor would people use of:- Brevis, SG Pro, LetUs,M2 ??

Or the SI-2K a lot more expensive.....!! - Is it available and shiping?

[Priyesh P.]

This thread seems like a bit of a fishing expedition. The RED will be ready when it is ready. We are all excited about this camera and we all want it in our hands. I can see how planning to use it based on release dates is tempting, but it's hard to depend on that when they havenot even shipped one unit.

As far as the alternatives go, there really is no alternative. How can you contemplate any other camera when you are looking at RED. There is no other camera with this feature set available. If you are looking at the Panasonic or JVC camera's as your major investment then I believe you might be kicking yourself for years to come. Neither of those camera's are even in the same league.

People in this thread are contemplating this camera to replace a Panavision set up and then others are thinking that an HVX 200 will do the job if they don't buy a RED. Come on.

If you can't wait, go buy your other camera today and end the insanity.

David

Sorry having to say it, but this in an opinion only one can make if he´s either financially independant or does filmproduction as a hobby.
There are lots of us who have to work and earn their money while waintin for Red to deliver.
That´s normal, not more, not less.
And I don´t know what your problem is when we speak about temporary "replacements", this is the forum for reservation holders and future buyers and where else can we discuss a problem that connects those groups of people if not here?

Red is going to be the big thing, there´s little doubt in it. So cool down and make your suggestion to the thread, otherwise...you know, there are more threads out here.

[David Mullen ASC]

If you planning on buying a RED anyway, I don't understand why most of you (not all) can't beg, borrow or rent a temporary camera to fill-in the couple of months of work in the meanwhile, why you have to buy another camera.

[Dan Blanchett]

If those with really low reservation numbers (<100) get their cameras by August, you can always consider renting the RED from them.

For myself, I have an October feature production planned. But since I am producing this project myself, I can push the date if the RED has not shipped. But I won't delay the project indefinitely... if my camera does not ship by December, I will likely look at other options, namely renting a 35mm package. Or I'll go with my original, pre-RED plan, shooting with my buddy's F900. I'd rather shoot with the RED, but I plan to make a good movie either way.

[Gunleik Groven]

Planning to buy the HPX anyway, to fill out the HVX slot. Tons of work there.
The workflow works, pricepoint is ok and customers are happy.

I can use the Red when I have it, be it tomorrow or next year, but for the meantime I'll just chop on my usual DVCPRO HD stick.

I don't want the SI. just because it's a "semi Red" (IMO. no offence, to me it's by far the other very interesting development) - but I can wait for Red as it's not 2/3" if I have other cameras.

Renting.
Wouldn't have been very cost efficient for me this far...
Now I do the rent out... -;)

Gunleik

[Robert Sanders]

Wow, I can't believe you guys would base your project around a piece of gear. I love the idea of the Red and all, but at the end of the day it is just another hammer in your belt. I know a ton of rental houses that will give you a killer deal on some super16 packages. They aren't shooting off the shelves right now.

_mike

Who said anything about planning their productions "around a piece of gear"? We have a start date. The movie will get produced with or without the RED camera.

I'm sorry if our bemoaning the loss of great camera offends you somehow. It's kinda why we're discussing "Plan B", no? What's the best alternative.

[Robert Sanders]

This thread seems like a bit of a fishing expedition. The RED will be ready when it is ready. We are all excited about this camera and we all want it in our hands. I can see how planning to use it based on release dates is tempting, but it's hard to depend on that when they havenot even shipped one unit.

As far as the alternatives go, there really is no alternative. How can you contemplate any other camera when you are looking at RED. There is no other camera with this feature set available. If you are looking at the Panasonic or JVC camera's as your major investment then I believe you might be kicking yourself for years to come. Neither of those camera's are even in the same league.

People in this thread are contemplating this camera to replace a Panavision set up and then others are thinking that an HVX 200 will do the job if they don't buy a RED. Come on.

If you can't wait, go buy your other camera today and end the insanity.

David

A fishing expedition? How so? I don't understand what you're trying to imply here.

I'm not looking at purchasing anything. I will be renting. Whether that was a RED package or an F900 or a Viper. We will not purchase a camera system until sometime in '08.

Again, we thought the RED would be available through our local rental house based on their serial #'s and original posted delivery schedule. That's no longer an option. So Plan B is being discussed.

I don't get why some think this discussion is somehow clandestine or something. And what's wrong with being disappointed at not having access to piece of gear?

[David Battistella]

[QUOTE=Robert Sanders;42461]A fishing expedition? How so? I don't understand what you're trying to imply here.

Robert,

Sometimes these posts feel like they are just made to put pressure on the people making the product. I have found that the RED team is straightforward and honest and they have been very transparent (more so than most major manufacturers. IE: How long did we wait for the HVX 200 with pictures of it with a viel on it etc.) There are a thousand plan b's for a production, I am sure you want to use RED, but if it is not ready, you will find something else.

Again, we thought the RED would be available through our local rental house based on their serial #'s and original posted delivery schedule. That's no longer an option. So Plan B is being discussed.


Great. There are many options out there and they are being discussed in this thread. The way it reads to me is that it is a bit of a machiavellian way of telling the makers of RED that everyone is discussing other options because so much is being made of the recent report of an engineering delay. I mean, this is the RED forum. Why not go to an HVX or F900 or HDXCAM forum to discuss how to implement their equipment into the production. People have barely given them a week to come up with their PLAN B.

I don't get why some think this discussion is somehow clandestine or something. And what's wrong with being disappointed at not having access to piece of gear?


Nothing. We all want the RED in our hands, including me. I'm not sure that spilling ink is going to make it happen any faster. If you can't use RED, then use something else. Viper, Super 16, 25, Panavision, F900, HDX900, Varicam. Everybody knows the options out there.

David

[David Battistella]

Sorry having to say it, but this in an opinion only one can make if he´s either financially independant or does filmproduction as a hobby.
There are lots of us who have to work and earn their money while waintin for Red to deliver.
That´s normal, not more, not less.
And I don´t know what your problem is when we speak about temporary "replacements", this is the forum for reservation holders and future buyers and where else can we discuss a problem that connects those groups of people if not here?

Red is going to be the big thing, there´s little doubt in it. So cool down and make your suggestion to the thread, otherwise...you know, there are more threads out here.

I can't believe you are telling me to cool down. Not sure what I said to offend anyone. All I did was praise the camera. If you can not wait for it, then buy something else to make your living.

David

[Sanjin Jukic]

I do not have plan B. I have plan A and C. Plan A is that I had reservation for the RED ONE when ever camera start to ship. The C is actually to not have any reserve plan expect to have main plan A. Yes OR no to have an alternative. Or to decide simply not to have any alternative. Why? All that means to skip plan B, get in plan C and return to plan A. No B. It is all about to be safe and confident. If you don't believe it just give up and do not mess it HERE. Hope you would understand.

[Gunleik Groven]

I'll just dare to quote Jim here from the "news" thread over at "RedOne" forum:
This thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=42478#post42478


Jay,

Notes like this one do matter. And we are trying to get everything done as quickly as possible. But we have been very careful to say that the schedule could change at any minute becuase this is such a difficult trick. Given that, everyone should naturally have a contingency plan for their projects... and hope they don't need them.

Jim

And thus I havn't made my work dependant on Red untill it's here and I have worked with it so that I know how to or who can handle it.

There's other cameras, and none as promising as Red.
Thus I ordered Red.

There are other cameras I can pick up and make some money with in the meantime, and thus I do...

No offense. No preasure on Jim and the team (as if I was the one to put them under preasure -;) just life. And my living.

I have even stated _before_ the announced delay, that I'd rather be a paying betatester, than NOT having access to it, if I could.

So, this thread - IMHO - consists of musing around how we wait, rather than any disbelief.

If someone have a gig tomorrow, they'd better pick up something else, or get into another line of business...

I cannot see how that's offensive -;)

Cheers!

Gunleik

[Ralph Oshiro]

Plan B: Sony DSR450 + InstantHD

[David Battistella]

I'll just dare to quote Jim here from the "news" thread over at "RedOne" forum:
This thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=42478#post42478



And thus I havn't made my work dependant on Red untill it's here and I have worked with it so that I know how to or who can handle it.

There's other cameras, and none as promising as Red.
Thus I ordered Red.

There are other cameras I can pick up and make some money with in the meantime, and thus I do...

No offense. No preasure on Jim and the team (as if I was the one to put them under preasure -;) just life. And my living.

I have even stated _before_ the announced delay, that I'd rather be a paying betatester, than NOT having access to it, if I could.

So, this thread - IMHO - consists of musing around how we wait, rather than any disbelief.

If someone have a gig tomorrow, they'd better pick up something else, or get into another line of business...

I cannot see how that's offensive -;)

Cheers!

Gunleik



Here, here. Nice eloquent post.

David

[Adrian T.]

Quote from Jim in the RED ONE forum:


I expect (with all the tradional precautions) that we will be able to give a locked down schedule in 5 weeks (your number). But, remember that things can change... :-)

Jim

Ok, locked down schedule in 5 weeks. So I guess we can't expect the first cameras before July.

[Gbabymogul]

If you planning on buying a RED anyway, I don't understand why most of you (not all) can't beg, borrow or rent a temporary camera to fill-in the couple of months of work in the meanwhile, why you have to buy another camera.
I can't speak for others, but in my previous post i said:
... i built in some lee way to a few projects i want to do with RED but the longer they're on an engineering hold, the more i'll have to rethink shooting with RED. They're non-conventional/shooting projects so it could get expensive to rent.

There wouldn't be much point in buying another camera if we rent packages for client projects and moreso if we'd be less than satisfied if using one we could afford on personal projects. Although, it's understandable if people don't understand our business model - it's more Van Gogh than TripleA productions ;) >>> boutique company

I'd also like to do more op of my own. Therefore, 'practice' with the cam, lenses, support, etc... without the need to have a sellable product at the end would be useful.

Anywhoo, i don't think anyone's planning on having RED for certain at a specific date. We're just discussing alternatives, covering all bases. For fully budgeted, distributable, contracted, or otherwise professional endeavours, there are a variety of formats to shoot on. It's the projects where renting doesn't make sense, or using 1/3" chip cameras wouldn't suffice, that RED would have been perfect.

Insofar as the slip in shipping schedule, it's understandable. I appreciate RED's open honesty.:wink:

:beer:

[Gunleik Groven]

Here, here. Nice eloquent post.

David

I so hate when I cannot hear the words -;)

Cheers!

Gunleik
the non-native English speaker by far -;)

[Roberto B]

perhaps buying another camera?

edit
you beat me guys: there are others thinking the same..

mr mullen, we're buyers.. rentals is not pop over here.. this is a renter phobic place.. :cold: not hollywood

[donatello b]

will be going to plan B

i had a short that i was planning to shoot on RED that i had quickly sketched out in super 8 (exterior - natural light) .... will edit material i now have into finished project ... then on to next short project in Aug........

[Finner]

PLAN B: Fu%#'in Giver

If this makes no sense to you try and find a mock-u-mentary movie called "FUBAR" its very low budget but sooo funny. Same guys that later did "All gone Pete Tong" another very good independant.

[Michael Hastings]

PLAN B: Fu%#'in Giver

If this makes no sense to you try and find a mock-u-mentary movie called "FUBAR" its very low budget but sooo funny.

Here are some more acronyms from wikipedia we can use if the delay gets to long:

BOHICA - Bend Over, Here It Comes Again
SNAFU - Situation Normal: All Fucked Up
TARFU - Things Are Really Fucked Up
WTF - What The Fuck?
BEIFT - Behold, Every Indicator Forebodes Trouble; pronounced "beefed"
FISHDO - Fuck It, Shit Happens, Drive On
FUBER - Fucked Up Beyond Economic Repair
FUMTU - Fucked Up More Than Usual
FUNDY - Fucked Up, Not Dead Yet; on British medical charts[3]
MOAFU - Mother Of All Fuck Ups
SAPFU - Surpasses All Previous Fuck Ups
SUSFU - Situation Unchanged: Still Fucked Up