FCP and AJA iO HD- anyone using for monitor output?

[Sam Roberts]

I am new to FCP and new to AJA gear and am in the process of setting up my editing system.

I have a clip shot in 2k and transcoded to a quicktime movie scaled to 1920x1080 using the ProRes codec using Red Rushes.

I am outputting from the FCP timeline into the AJA iOHD and then through an HDMI cable to a new Panasonic 1080P plasma.

In FCP I have a sequence preset set to AJA iO HD 1080p 24 Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) and my video playback is set to AJA iO HD 1080p 24 ProRes 422.
In the FCP VIEW menu the settings are: external video all frames. Video playback AJA iO HD 1080p 24 ProRes 422.

The shots in the sequence properties are: size 1GB Vid rate 24fps frame size 1920x1080. Compressor Apple ProRes 422.

All shots on the timeline have been rendered

The problem is when I monitor the timeline output 1/3 of the screen is a black bar with the shot itself shoved over to the right of the screen with only the first 2/3 of the shot visible (see photo below)

If I switch the playback output to 1080i the picture becomes normal and it moves as I scrub, but I can't get any real time playback.

Any ideas? Thanks.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj162/beijaflor115/monitorprob-1.jpg

[Uli Plank]

Not all screens like 1080p over HDMI. How does it look like if you play out of the Red One via HDMI?

[Olivier Madar]

I am new to FCP and new to AJA gear and am in the process of setting up my editing system.

I have a clip shot in 2k and transcoded to a quicktime movie scaled to 1920x1080 using the ProRes codec using Red Rushes.

I am outputting from the FCP timeline into the AJA iOHD and then through an HDMI cable to a new Panasonic 1080P plasma.

In FCP I have a sequence preset set to AJA iO HD 1080p 24 Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) and my video playback is set to AJA iO HD 1080p 24 ProRes 422.
In the FCP VIEW menu the settings are: external video all frames. Video playback AJA iO HD 1080p 24 ProRes 422.

The shots in the sequence properties are: size 1GB Vid rate 24fps frame size 1920x1080. Compressor Apple ProRes 422.

All shots on the timeline have been rendered

The problem is when I monitor the timeline output 1/3 of the screen is a black bar with the shot itself shoved over to the right of the screen with only the first 2/3 of the shot visible (see photo below)

If I switch the playback output to 1080i the picture becomes normal and it moves as I scrub, but I can't get any real time playback.

Any ideas? Thanks.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj162/beijaflor115/monitorprob-1.jpg

I used my Aja in exactly that way : hdmi output connected to a LCD screen and it works well for 1080p in the FCP timeline. The image was cropped using 2K. But since a few days, it doesn't work anymore, and I don't know why. When I send a test pattern to the LCD, it is pushed on the right (about 1/4 of the screen), and I don't have the playback anymore with FCP (no picture at all, nor in 1080p, either in 625i). Maybe Apple did an update and we have the same disease ?

[Sam Roberts]

My FCP is new out of the box last week as is the AJA io HD. The component out shows no pictures at all if I switch over to that output.

I could live with 1080i if I could get real time playback via the HDMI cable but every time I hit play the picture on the Plasma freezes at the frame I was on when I hit play. When I hit stop that (end) frame is shown. And, like I said when I SCRUB the timeline the picture moves.

Of all the research and purchase descisions I have made regarding the RED system it was the I/O decision that was the hardest as I have to edit and monitor everything from RED 4k to legacy Betacam SD. I'm still not sure I made the right move with the AJA ioHD but is was the only solution that provided all the in's and out's I needed. Such a pain in the ass. I remember when you bought a monitor, connected it to a BNC cable and it gave you a picture.

Maybe it is just not possible to see real time playback from the timeline at 1080 rez. Does anyone know?

[M Most]

In FCP I have a sequence preset set to AJA iO HD 1080p 24 Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) and my video playback is set to AJA iO HD 1080p 24 ProRes 422.
In the FCP VIEW menu the settings are: external video all frames. Video playback AJA iO HD 1080p 24 ProRes 422.

The shots in the sequence properties are: size 1GB Vid rate 24fps frame size 1920x1080. Compressor Apple ProRes 422.

Try using a 23.98 preset. Also try using an 23.98sF or 24sF video playback setting instead of 24p.

[Kevin Wild]

We found that our Sony Bravia 46" LCD would not support a 1080P, 23.98 signal from the Kona LHe. We switched the "View" to 720p and it plays fine and you cannot see a visible difference. You might want to try that...

Kevin

[Sam Roberts]

They said it might be a frames per second speed problem over at Creative Cow but a switch to 23.98 didn't work. I do get a full raster picture on the Panny using 720P, the only progressive format that seems to work. The problem is like 1080i, there is no real time playback...just a freeze up.I

The specs say it will display 1125x1080 60P/1125x1080 24P and 1280x1024@60 but I am not sure what they mean by this last one, it may be a computer resolution. I don't think any of the RED APPS do 1080x1125 do they? Maybe it is the slight difference between the 1080x1125 the TV will display and the 1920X1080 that RED's apps trancode to and what FCP settings are available that is causing the freeze up and the inability to properly display 1080P 23.98 ProRes 422 (1920x1080)

I have to say though even a frozen picture on the plasma is truly amazing. Panasonic makes a nice TV. Too bad I may have to put it in the bedroom and go buy an LCD. What are you guy's using?

[M Most]

They said it might be a frames per second speed problem over at Creative Cow but a switch to 23.98 didn't work. I do get a full raster picture on the Panny using 720P, the only progressive format that seems to work. The problem is like 1080i, there is no real time playback...just a freeze up.I

Consumer monitors often don't like professional formats, even though they might play a 24fps stream from, say, a BluRay disc. The professional monitors rarely have these limitations.

[James Press]

AJA support is excellent--could try asking them direct??

[Sam Roberts]

Yes I think I'll do that.

Funny, if I hook my BLU-RAY up to the plasma I have no problems at all with 1080P.

[Kaku Ito]

You probably have to do pull-down insertion (display as 29.97) in order to get the correct aspect ratio. So far Multibrdige Pro is the only one I've used and correctly display 23.976.

[Sam Roberts]

Not all screens like 1080p over HDMI. How does it look like if you play out of the Red One via HDMI?

I tried this awhile back and the camera froze and rebooted itself everytime I hooked it up to the plasma and turned it on. This was a common problem and there was a thread talking about this on here...don't know if anyone ever got it to work.

[Matthew Bennett]

Ahh, Toronto and Tokyo in the same thread, the internet warms my heart tonight..

I've had the same problem with the camera freezing when connected via hdmi....

[Olivier Madar]

My FCP is new out of the box last week as is the AJA io HD. The component out shows no pictures at all if I switch over to that output.

I could live with 1080i if I could get real time playback via the HDMI cable but every time I hit play the picture on the Plasma freezes at the frame I was on when I hit play. When I hit stop that (end) frame is shown. And, like I said when I SCRUB the timeline the picture moves.

Of all the research and purchase descisions I have made regarding the RED system it was the I/O decision that was the hardest as I have to edit and monitor everything from RED 4k to legacy Betacam SD. I'm still not sure I made the right move with the AJA ioHD but is was the only solution that provided all the in's and out's I needed. Such a pain in the ass. I remember when you bought a monitor, connected it to a BNC cable and it gave you a picture.

Maybe it is just not possible to see real time playback from the timeline at 1080 rez. Does anyone know?

Hi,

It has worked for me in the past : 1080p in the FCP, timeline 25 fps (Europe), and all on the LCD monitor through the hdmi. Even scrubbing was working. But today, I don't know why, it doesn't work anymore. I have sent an email to the Aja support and to Silverado (who sell me the Aja).

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Great thread. With the improved quality of the better consumer displays, and the attractive pricing mandated by the commodity market they are sold in, they are finding their way into the professional space at a rapid rate.

Unfortunately there are some gotchas where pro and sumer meet. I have two theories and I hope before this thread is done we will all know the real deal.

1) HDCP digital rights management protocols for copy protection may be the culprit, particularly when HDMI is involved. The way I understand it (which may be off base) is that there is a "handshake" between the source and the display that somehow determines that the content is being viewed but not copied. Perhaps this handshake protocol is to blame for camera shut downs?

2) AJA io/HD boxes are not sending flags the consumer monitors expect to see in order to "sync up" to one of the multitude of ATSC "standards" they are designed to support. BTW I had the same off center image issue with an Optoma HD80 projector that played 1080P from Blu-Ray off a PS3.

In a perfect world there would be a high bandwidth "agnostic" input on all monitors, be they professional or consumer targeted, be they computer or television targeted. In the meantime if you want HD-SDI inputs on your Panny plasma there is a bit of an upcharge :pinch: (around $3,000 for that little plug the last time I shopped it).

Digression alert:
Your local pro gear salesman likely has a line of malarkey about why the Panasonic PRO Plasma is worth so much more than the consumer version but see if he/she is willing to do a side by side test with the bezels masked and if they choose wrong you get the monitor free, if they choose right you pay full list price. If you can get your vendor to agree to this, please pass along their info :devil: .

[Sam Roberts]

1) HDCP digital rights management protocols for copy protection may be the culprit, particularly when HDMI is involved. The way I understand it (which may be off base) is that there is a "handshake" between the source and the display that somehow determines that the content is being viewed but not copied. Perhaps this handshake protocol is to blame for camera shut downs? .

Hi Blair. This might explain why many of us can't get a picture out of the camera itself and onto the Panny Plasma via HDMI. The camera just dies and reboots.

Now I CAN get a beautiful full raster image from FCP on the Panasonic if I switch to 1080i 29.97 I just can't get it to play back in real time although I can scrub it.

Also, you'd think that if the problem was HDMI related, I would be able to see a picture when I go component out from the iO HD to the TV but I get nothing with this setup.

[Kaku Ito]

Not so sure how you would set up in AJA products, but in FCP, keep the timeline as 23.976, and in AJA setup, set it up to convert 23.976 as 29.97 then HDMI with Panasonic should work, even it'll playback (with pulldown inserted).

[Sam Roberts]

Changing the playback frame rate in FCP doesn't fix the problem. I don't think it's the Panasonic because I plugged one of my Samsung computer monitors in and got the same problems. It is either the io HD or FCP itself or, it also may be the 24fps frame rate at which the clips on the time line were shot. I am going to do some camera tests today shooting at 23.98 and 29.97 and see if that fixes the problems.

[Kaku Ito]

Sam,

The nature of FCP with 23.976, you keep the frame rate of the project as 23.976, then set the hardware like Multibridge Pro, MXO2, MOTU V4HD to display as 29.97 then the hardware inserts pulldown frames (like 2:3:3:2) to make the 23.976 project display as 29.97. So you don't change the frame rate in FCP but IOHD's utility if there's any, there should be output conversion selection to output 23.976 signal as 29.97, try that out.

Implementation of HDMI is somewhat flaky, although panels accepts 23.976 from HDMI, not every video I/Os work with that specification. Blu-ray 23.976 are somewhat set (I think most of them do 23.976fps instead of 23.976p) so they can easily set to display 23.976, but I experienced that from above IOs I mentioned, so far only Multibridge Pro can actually display 23.976 correctly through HDMI with consumer panels. Matrox says they will make the MXO2 be able to do that on the next update.

[Sam Roberts]

Kaku,

What you say is basically what AJA support said to do. They suggested the following:

In FCP > Audio Video Settings, set the Video Playback to 1080i2997(non HQ)
also set the Primary Format of the Format tab in the IoHD Control Panel to
1080i2997, make sure on the HDMI tab it is set to Primary

In FCP > System Settings > Playback Control Tab > set RT to Safe > Video
Quality to High > Frame Rate to Full


This fixes the problem of the picture not being centered and allows movement when I scrub the timeline. However I am still not getting any real time playback off the timeline. Every time I hit play the picture freezes on both the Panasonic and the SD Sony Broadcast Monitor that is hooked up to the secondary (SD 525i) output of the io HD. It is almost as if FCP or my Mac Pro doesn't have the juice for full screen 1080 real time playback.

The trouble is we are dealing with for separate variables- the MAC Pro, FCP, the AJA io HD box and the Panasonic monitor.

Looks like the so-called "excellent" support at AJA has given up on the problem but I've got a few more things to try before I throw in the towel and of course, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[David Birdy]

I am using a Macbook Pro 2.6 with 4 gigs of ram with the G-raid drive,(Raid 0)
and AJA IO.

We get realtime playback out in HDMI,HD-SDI, Composite & component at
720 P and Prores Non HQ! I have not tried the 1080I yet..

I set playback in the AJA Io to 59.94 for the LCD monitors I use,(sharp & Visio)

This is a great onset playback & record system. I feed most monitors with HDMI.

Dave

[Sam Roberts]

After shooting some test footage at 23.97 I now have full frame real time playback using the settings in post #20.

Stay away from 24fps if you are monitoring via an AJA io HD.

Now I can finally get some work done.

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.

[Kaku Ito]

After shooting some test footage at 23.97 I now have full frame real time playback using the settings in post #20.

Stay away from 24fps if you are monitoring via an AJA io HD.

Now I can finally get some work done.

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.

Ah, so you were shooting 24p instead of 23.976. That won't let you monitor through outside video system in realtime.

If we are using digital camera like RED, even with P2 or EX1, we always have to use 23.976 or 29.97. Don't be shy about 23.976, DI people will adjust it to 24frame on the DI stage.

[Joe Ogburn]

If you want to display 23.98psf on a consumer monitor via HDMI, you need to use the Blackmagic HDSDI to HDMI converter. This unit takes HD SDI and converts it to HDMI. While AJA makes a unit that does the same thing, at this point in time it does not support 23.98 psf while the Blackmagic unit does. While I do not know, I suspect that AJA IO is using the same specifications as their SDI to HDMI converter.

Of course you have to make sure that the monitor you are using is capable of displaying 23.98. Interestingly enough, the AJA will do 23.98p but not psf. Other than that, the AJA is an excellent converter and I have been told by support that they are trying to address the 23.98psf problem

[Kaku Ito]

Joe,

Sam's problem was coming from shooting at 24frame instead of 23.976fps.

But I would be surprised AJA is having problem with 23.976.

[Olivier Madar]

I lost my Aja config and was not able again to scrub the FCP timeline and to see the image on the LCD television. I tought Apple did an update but, in fact, it was me.
I tryed to send via HDMI of the Aja a 1080p 25fps to the screen. I had forgotten that my LCD was not able of 1080p but of 1080 "i" and I get a picture pushed to the right (see the pic).
After changing the format to 1080i on the Aja software and in my FCP timeline, I get my image on the LCD again.
Aja was very useful and makes me do all the tests.

[Joe Ogburn]

AJA is having the problem with 23.976. I just went through this with their tech support. I have two AJA HD SDI to HDMI converters and one Blackmagic HD SDI to HDMI converter. Each one of these converters is connected to a Sony Bravia LCD monitor via HDMI. I started with the AJA coverters and when it did not work, I contacted AJA support. After several rounds of back and forth emails I was finally told that there is no specification for 23.976psf for HDMI and that it would not work. At that point I emailed Blackmagic. We went through a series of emails with the end result being that they thought it would work, and seemed to work in their lab. I went out and purchased a Blackmagic converter, put it on a new Sony Bravia monitor and yes, it did work. Took it off of that monitor and tried on the monitor with the AJA converter and it worked there. Switch input to AJA - messed up picture, switch input to Blackmagic - good picture.

Then I contacted AJA with my results, and they told me they were working on a solution, probably one that would allow me to upgrade my existing converters. Several weeks later that was clarified to they were working on making it work in the newer converters but it probably would require new converters - no upgrade path.

That was the last I heard about it from AJA. Please do not get me wrong. I AM NOT dissing AJA. They make very good products and I have always had excellent tech support from them, I just seem to have hit one little place where Blackmagic worked better for a certain situation.

So, to recap. I can not speak to the AJA IO directly as I do not have one. I can speak about the AJA HD to HDMI converter because I own two. They will not work 23.976 psf to a Consumer monitor. The Blackmagic HD to HDMI convert does work. It is only my guess the AJA IO uses the same specifications as their HD to HDMI converter.

I am just relating my experience.

[Joe Ogburn]

I would like to clarify something.

I am saying that AJA has a problem (at least in their converters) with 23.976 psf (23.98) via HDMI. They are not having any problems with 23.976 psf on the video outputs, that works fine.

The solution of cross-converting on the AJA hardware also works just fine, you just have to remember to set it correctly. I have AJA Kona / Xenia cards and they work fine. These cards are in various systems, one on a Final Cut, one in an Avid DS system and one in an Autodesk Inferno. I do not have an AJA IO on any system. And for other users, cross converting on the Avid output tab also works fine for monitoring. This is what was suggested in post #20 although it gave the steps but did not point out that what is happening is a cross-convert on the output.

While we use Hi-Quality monitors for Editor monitoring, we also use large Consumer LCD monitors for Client monitoring. If the Client needs to verify color, then they need to come up to the Editor monitor for fine color. But they seem to like looking at the Large Screen Sony Bravia monitors for general content monitoring. This is where I ran into the 23.976 psf problem with Consumer monitors. I choose the Sony Bravia because it advertised being 24 capable (via HDMI only). I originally choose the AJA because of past and present experiences with AJA. Then I ran directly into the 23.976 psf problem.

I could cross convert any 23.976 session to either 29.97 psf or 59.94i but I could not display 23.976 psf on the Sony Consumer Monitors. That led to the discussions with AJA and then Blackmagic. I expect AJA will solve the HDMI problem but for now, if you want 23.976 psf on a consumer monitor then the Blackmagic converter works. I have not tested 24 hard as we are a video house. If someone was interested, I could run that test as I have a test generator that will put out 24 frame test signals. I you want me to run that test I will, just I have yet had a call to try it.

Joe Ogburn
Junior Member at Reduser
30+ years of Post Production Engineering

[Kaku Ito]

Joe,

Nice clarification. To add to that, Blackmagicdesign Multibrdige Pro can directly output to 23.976fps through HDMI that the newer Sony Bravia accepts that signal no problem, so no need to use HD Link nor converters.

[Joe Ogburn]

Joe,

Nice clarification. To add to that, Blackmagicdesign Multibrdige Pro can directly output to 23.976fps through HDMI that the newer Sony Bravia accepts that signal no problem, so no need to use HD Link nor converters.

Kaku,

Thanks.

I am sure that the Multibridge Pro is a fine product. But if you are just trying to get 23.976psf video to a consumer monitor then the Blackmagic SDI to HDMI converter will get the job done for about $500. The Multibridge Pro is good if you need all of the other possible outputs. But it is overkill for just getting to a consumer monitor. The converter will auto switch between SD and HD so it is pretty much a connect it forget it.

As I said before cross converting works also, as long as you remember to set it in FCP (or Avid) but with the Blackmagic converter you do not need to cross convert and you are monitoring in the same 23.976 that you shot instead of 29.97 or 59.94. If you are going to cross convert (in the AJA Kona / Xenia or IO) then the AJA HDSDI to HDMI will work ok (or I assume the HDMI out on the IO).

But please note. Not all LCD monitors can work at 24. The Sony Bravia series can as well as some LG models. You need to check and make sure the monitor you want to use supports 24. If it says that it will work with Blu-Ray 24P out then it should work. If it does not say in the literature that it accepts 24p input, then it probably will not work. Most of these will only accept 24p through the HDMI inputs not through the analog inputs. The newer sets coming out are more likely to support 24p than the older units.

Joe

[Kaku Ito]

Joe,

I was looking from the side where already own Multibridge Pro then don't need the converter, but didn't think of the "digital cinema desktop" perspect. I also have used HDP before but since most other hardware are capable connecting many other ways, so I abandoned it. I actually used MOTU V4HD as converter/video I/O and forget about reconnecting, so I should have know where you were coming from. Getting old.

I think Sony Bravia's 24p input (which they claim) is not real progressive. It's 23.976 "fps" I suppose. Only real professional display can handle real progressive picture usually. So I guess Blackmagicdesign did their homework that Multibrdige Pro's HDMI supports 23.976 fps, others like MX2 (the support is on its way though) and V4HD's HDMI does not support 23.976 fps on their HDMI output at this point. So you would have to use the cross conversion. I was wondering the Kona products are similar to that. How are they?

[Joe Ogburn]

Kaku:

Decided to run some tests, the results of which were enlightening even to me.

Here is the set-up

Test Generator -> Broadcast Monitor -> Converter -> Sony Bravia LCD Monitor

Blackmagic SDI to HDMI converter:

24p - no picture
23.98p -no picture
23.98psf - good picture

AJA Hi-5 SDI to HDMI converter:

24p -good picture
23.98p - good picture
23.98psf -no picture

Broadcast monitor showed good pictures in all modes.

Now, this was tested using a HD Test Pattern Generator -not a working system.

I found those results interesting to say the least. However, since my main concern was 23.98psf then in my case the Blackmagic converter wins.

Did not see the picture shifted in 23.98p or 24p on the AJA as reported in earlier posts. However I was using a generator not a AJA output and I was not using an AJA IO which is what was reported as having the timing problem.


The LCD panels themselves are progressive in nature, but what the electronics feeding the panel determines what it will display via it's internal processing. Plus you have the added burden of how the signal is processed before it gets to the panel's electronics. As we can see here, using the same manufacturer of panel electronics but different converter points out issues in BOTH converters.

I do not understand your reference to 23.976 not being real progressive. There is a such a thing as 23.976p but I do not know of a case of where it is used. Here in the US, the VTR systems are using 23.976psf (progressive segmented frame). The picture itself is progressive but the transport of the progressive "frame" is split into two segments, one with the even lines and the other with the odd lines. The display panel puts the two parts back together to reform the progressive frame. Yes, the picture get broken apart but when put back together it is exactly the same as if it was transported as a single progressive frame.

What I do know is there is a lot of confusion out there, and also a lot of bad information regarding frame rates and especially about p vs. psf. As for the debate over 24 vs 23.98, my first question is - What is your primary target market and do you want to work in video (in the US). If your primary target is video or you want to work in video then 23.98 is what you need to do. If your primary target is to go back to film and you have little interest in outputing to video, then you can consider shooting and working in 24 hard. And then there is PAL......

Joe

PS. I bet that I am older than you.....