NEW design to chew on...

[Jannard]

Relax a bit... there are a 1000 combinations and this is just one. Monster weight reduction.

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1179181370.jpg

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1179181393.jpg

[Jarred Land]

just so everyone knows.. the camera is the same size..

[Fix]

looks great :)

[Poi Boy]

Thanks for sharing, looks like a great option.
Aloha
-A

[roryhinds]

This looks great guys.
Looks very robust and function before fashion :-)

[Joe Aurili]

Nice, that is more like what I was looking for. How would one attach a mic to that?

[Charles Perkins]

that, is amazing.

[Häakon]

That's the best top handle design I've seen... I really hope you keep that one. I'd take that with the four side handles over the original design.

The only confusion I have is that there have been numerous renders - even designs that people have already put money down to reserve (the production packs) - and yet the format and function is still continuing to develop and change (not necessarily a bad thing). The question is, while it's cool that there are "1,000 combinations," how do we know exactly what we should reserve with parts continuing to morph and fluctuate?

[Adrian T.]

Wow! The RED Mini! :)

[Jarred Land]

Nice, that is more like what I was looking for. How would one attach a mic to that?

there are mounting holes all over the place on the handle.. plus the top plate. and you can always add one of the modular universal mounting plates as well.

[Thom Steinhoff]

That's beautiful. I really like that one: simple, functional, light.

Is that with the Basic or Premium production pack?

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Nice compact design!

[Owen James]

Very Sharp!!!

[Michael Ragen]

Hell yeah! This was the kind of M16 handle I was talking about. Now if you can just have a Supergrip version...

[Mark L. Pederson]

That's great! Lean and mean!

[Kip Hewitt]

Wow. Best design yet fo sure. Is this completely functional? Meaning: Where is the battery?

[wshultz]

eye LIKE it! Shoulder pad looks comfy too. Just add rods to taste.

[PaulClements]

looks funky

[Kenn Christenson]

Where is the battery?

More importantly, where's the coffee cup holder?

[Jarred Land]

That's beautiful. I really like that one: simple, funcitonal, light.

Is that with the Basic or Premium production pack?

the top plate and the bottom plate and handle are both new upgraded parts for both of the packages... if you look at both configurations they both include the new pieces.

[Häakon]

Wow. Best design yet fo sure. Is this completely functional? Meaning: Where is the battery?
The battery (and RED-Drive) is not attached. There are different ways to mount those as well depending on your needs. If you need ultimate lightweight portability, you could skip the RED-Drive and go with flash-based recording. It's all about modularity. :-)

[Joe Aurili]

I'm a bit unclear how the mounting holes are of use, perhaps because I have not owned pro equipment before. Are these hole sizes standard? Would I get the hardware to attach the mic and other accessories from red or a third party source?


there are mounting holes all over the place on the handle.. plus the top plate. and you can always add one of the modular universal mounting plates as well.

[Adrian T.]

More importantly, where's the coffee cup holder?

You mean where's the coffee-maker? :wink:


We just added a coffee-maker to the on-board accessory list.

Jim

[Jim Exton]

This is my favorite design of all. I always thought the handgrip kinda sucked, this new one is awesome.

[Joe Aurili]

It would be good to see a minimal useable configuration by adding the battery, view finder, and flash adapter in the most minimal way.

[Andrew Benz]

I really like this very much... just saw it now. Spartan at it's core.

[Jarred Land]

It would be good to see a minimal useable configuration by adding the battery, view finder, and flash adapter in the most minimal way.

yes.. you can record to flash and use a battery belt and make the entire rig very very lean and mean.

[Desert Rune]

The design looks delicious!

Any chance we'll see a hand grip version, so we can hold it like a HVX? :)

[Jason Francois]

the more compact the better, in my opinion. The camera is still big enough for those that have pre-conceived notions of what a professional camera should be, so we don't have to worry there, but it would be nice to get it shrunk as much as possible. Of course this has been discussed at length before.

Now if the battery could just wedge in there somewhere. :)

Nice work. This is fun to witness.

[Jarred Land]

I always thought the handgrip kinda sucked, this new one is awesome.

thats why we are doing this now while we can before we go into production.. to make things better.

[Michael Ragen]

Seems to me if you combine this render with the last one with sidehandles, bottom mounting the battery might be good as it would help lower the center of gravity for handheld fig rig style shooting.

With my HVX in a similar setup I often brace the back of the camera against my torso, with my elbows tucked into my ribs, so hopefully there is a "hold" switch for all the buttons on the back of the camera so one doesn't accidently adjust settings while shooting.

[PaulClements]

Jarred any guestimates on the weight of that setup?

[Michael Schrengohst]

I like it...
I have placed an order for accessories...
Will the RED store products change at
some point to reflect the "final"
shipping accessories?

[Alexander Nikishin]

there are mounting holes all over the place on the handle...

Which handle are we talking about? The ones in the new cage design render? If so, those had no mounting holes, which I found to be a major problem.


plus the top plate.

From these renders, the top plate seems to have no holes, just grooves.


and you can always add one of the modular universal mounting plates as well.

Can we see the universal mounting plate?

I think it's time for a fully outfitted render just so we can have an idea of what is really trying to be done here.

[Jarred Land]

Which handle are we talking about? The ones in the new cage design render? If so, those had no mounting holes, which I found to be a major problem.



From these renders, the top plate seems to have no holes, just grooves.



Can we see the universal mounting plate?

I think it's time for a fully outfitted render just so we can have an idea of what is really trying to be done here.

Every hole you see on the top plate is 1/4"-20, including the ones that look like they are just for cosmetic reasons facing towards the lens.

[Ace]

Im christening this "Indy Le'Petite". Im quite glad you chose to show this configuration because there were many guerilla style users which were concerned about the minimal configuration system (Including me)

One thing though, why doesnt the top handle incorporate moulded oakley style bike grips? Would make holding the camera at ODD angles quite easier, as a cylinder tends to require extra muscular torque and grip to keep steady at these angles (say your holding it low and pointing up).

[Brian Kaz]

Hot Damn! Me Likee.

[Jarred Land]

One thing though, why doesnt the top handle incorporate moulded oakley style bike grips? Would make holding the camera at ODD angles quite easier, as a cylinder tends to require extra muscular torque and grip to keep steady at these angles (say your holding it low and pointing up).

that handle grip is the same diameter.. so you can cut off the rubber grip and slide on Oakley O-wings to get a little built in leverage...

[Ace]

There you go! You guys think of everything. I was thinking the top handle was quite thick as well. Would be good to incorporate these grips into the accessory line.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Please put up a render of the top end rails with all the optional accessories.

At this point, the top end rails seem a bit unnecessary without some really nice accessories to adorn them.

[Ace]

Alex, Isn't the handle mounted on the top Rail joints?

Your mount configuration option might mean changing the design to make the top handle mountable onto the Rail mount points (without having to mount the rail mounts first) mount mount mount.

[Andrew Benz]

Jarred is that the release over the RED inscribed lower plate? Does that allow the bottom plate/shoulder rest to fall away or continue the slide off?

On a bigger monitor... ah, now I see... nevermind...

Cheers,

A. Benz

[TimothyD]

I want Oakley 3's... From the early 80's. I still have a pair in fact from my old BMX bike. But I want black, and mine are blue:)

Tim

[Alexander Nikishin]

Alex, I'snt the handle mounted on the top Rail joints?

Your mount configuration option might mean changing the design to make the top handle mountable onto the Rail mount points (without having to mount the rail mounts first) mount mount mount.

The new side handles don't have any use that comes to mind, the new top handle does everything they did and more.

PLUS, as you'll see below, the new side handles have mounting points that are rendered useless when adding on the new top handle.

Here's a quick chop job I did adding the new top handle to the cage redesign photo.
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/8213/1copyrw2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

This leads me to ask, are the top rails even necessary now? Or just baby fat?

BTW, I LOVE the new hollowed out bottom plate and shoulder design.

[Bob Chappell]

Thank you for this new design. It seems more practical and familar than the previous design layouts. The way I shoot, I've always felt most confortable with the design of the Arri SR I and II. This configuration seems as if I could use it the same way.

[Jason Francois]

I'm excited, because it would seem to me that you could move the top handle over one hole, to the outside (away from the REDport) and add one grip to the front on the lower rods and do handheld very nicely. Your right arm could grab the top grip and the left is....uh, left to work the lens and aid in balancing.

Then again this may be obvious to all of you already, but for me it's a revelation. :)

[Michael Ragen]

Alexander, the side handle system has plenty of use if you are used to shooting with a Fig Rig. It would be tricky though with the drive and battery mounted on the back as you would have to extend your arms way out there, which is why I will use flash and mount the battery underneath.

[Jeremy Hughes]

Elcuardo, acehole, when are the photoshoped images coming? :biggrin:

Why does the lens mount stick out a little?

[Jannard]

another option...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1179186962.jpg

[S. Um]

The new minimal design looks good, but how do you keep the camera from falling off your shoulder? Do you just put your right hand on the right side of the camera body?

For a working configuration with battery, drive, and EFV or LCD, I think you'll probably still need the Red rail. (Please correct me if I'm wrong).

Edit: The new picture looks more workable.

[Emanuel A.]

Monster weight reduction.I would and I will support this option.

BTW, post some more footage, if possible, Jim. This would be so cool and it shall calm down the anxiety. What do you think?

IMHO, the motion picture from the prototypes is rocking!

[Joe Aurili]

I'll call this one "wide load" :)

Sure adds a lot of space to put things though, if you need it.


another option...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1179186962.jpg

[Jeremy Hughes]

just so everyone knows.. the camera is the same size..

Why's it look smaller then, Jarred?

[Ace]

Im glad the holy handles are back!

I see plento of places to keep a joint while filming.

[Tom Lowe]

I like it better. Thumbs up.

[CVB]

Why's it look smaller then, Jarred?

I think that Jim needs to throw in a trusty pabst blue ribbon can for size reference :)

[Anders Holck]

Whoa, dramatic lighting in that last render Jim :-)

Is the front/bottom quick release for the camera/rail or the Red pad/rail?
(Looks like it's for the camera/rail)

The weight reduction in the Pad seems like a good idea, but the new thin profile at the front looks very fragile if it it's supposed to have 3/8" screw holes for tripod mounting or is the Pad still replacable for a lower profile tripod pad?

[Alexander Nikishin]

another option...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1179186962.jpg

THANK YOU JIM!!!!!!!! THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED! :greedy:

Tons of mounting points, lightweight, protective, carry handles, just perfect.

[number6]

I'll call this one "wide load" :)



AKA Leggo RED! (Leggo my RED!)

[Joe Aurili]

This design is getting pretty close to perfect. A low weight minimal profile set-up to use until you need more, then pop on the side bars. 1, 2, or 4, what ever you need.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Is the front/bottom quick release for the camera/rail or the Red pad/rail?
(Looks like it's for the camera/rail)

It looks like it'll detatch the shoulder pad and allow for an oconnor/sachtler, etc. plate to be mounted flush under the RED, nice.

[Joe Aurili]

That's the down side ;)


AKA Leggo RED! (Leggo my RED!)

[Anders Holck]

It looks like it'll detatch the shoulder pad and allow for an oconnor/sachtler, etc. plate to be mounted flush under the RED, nice.

Well, I didn't dare say that as that would be the way I'd prefer it. But I hope you're right :-)

[Alexander Nikishin]

Well, I didn't dare say that as that would be the way I'd prefer it. But I hope you're right :-)

I think that the shoulder pad detatching would be the way to go to keep that lower center of gravity while on sticks.

[Anders Holck]

Sorry to flood this channel, but...

Are 19mm rods still an option for lens support?

Even stainless steel 15mm rods seem to bend slightly with a strong servo on older lenses in when it's cold. (Or do I just have to lube my lenses? :glare: )

[Alexander Nikishin]

Are 19mm rods still an option for lens support?

19mm will be the standard, a 15mm adapter will be an option though with the premium packge.

[Häakon]

another option...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1179186962.jpg

NOW we're talking... this is exactly how I'd configure mine. I think I'd get the handle grips on the corners as opposed to the arms with holes, but I assume that's an easy option to swap out. This keeps the camera well protected while still maintaining a low profile, and the top handle exists soley for easy transport. Bravo on this design!

[Jannard]

We aim to please...

Jim

[Gbabymogul]

I think that Jim needs to throw in a trusty pabst blue ribbon can for size reference :)Lol. But where do I put my cigars?

Dig the new design, but I still miss the bridge that ran along the top, without needing any rails. That was a spiffing piece of design. Can up I put in my 3 pence to have it back?... It'd be easy peasy to make, methinks.

:beer:

[Bruce Allen]

Function before fashion? This is the cutest design yet!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Clayton Harper]

I Love The New Handle Design! :)

[Evin Grant]

LOVE the new slim-fast design...
Question though, is there enough realestate in the shoulder area?
It looks like it could use just a little more, if I may be so bold...
http://www.reduser.net/evin/newcage.jpg

[Alexander Nikishin]

Exactly what I was thinking Evin, it needed that extra little arch on the back end!

[Häakon]

I also just noticed the way the interchangable side panel (with the RED logo) now "scoops" in instead of just protruding out like it does in all of the gallery renders on the red.com site... aesthetically this looks much better too! You guys are on a roll... :)

[Brook Willard]

Wow, this is a great update. It's getting very close to exactly what I would want out of a system like this. I love the 19mm cage "arms" that you've put together. Are there parts missing in the render with the "arms"? Look at the camera-front-right arm's mount onto the rod... :)

I can't even imagine what the total weight loss over the NAB system is... but I'd love to know. :)

What I'm the most excited about is the change to the lower part of the rails. It looks like the locking mechanism for the shoulder pad has moved from the rails to the pad itself... is that the case?

The front/rear balance looks a lot nicer here as well. It looks like the shoulder pad could get into a very comfortable position without reaching the "danger zone" where it might fall off. I agree with Evin, though... I'd love to see it reach farther back [and down around the operator's back, if possible].

Anyway, I'm impressed. This answered almost every one of my concerns from NAB. Now I'm excited...

[Vincent Rice]

This is looking great now. Form and function in balance.

[Clayton Harper]

What I'm the most excited about is the change to the lower part of the rails. It looks like the locking mechanism for the shoulder pad has moved from the rails to the pad itself... is that the case?

If you could fit a sachtler plate under the pad and leave it bolted on when changing to handheld that would be ridiculous. :matrix:

[Alexander Nikishin]

If you could fit a sachtler plate under the pad and leave it bolted on when changing to handheld that would be ridiculous. :matrix:

Then you'd lose your low center of gravity. :wacko:

[Häakon]

Are there parts missing in the render with the "arms"? Look at the camera-front-right arm's mount onto the rod... :)
It looks to me that the tightening screw is on the inside of each arm, not centered or in front (that's the way it is on the rear arm, anyway). So you can't see the tightening mechanism on either of the front arms in the angle of the render, but based on where it is on the back, they're there.

[Matt Uhry]

Hi Red Team This is GREAT. much simpler and lighter. I'm wondering how you top mount the battery and red-drive in this config. I've made a suggestion for a different handle.

http://www.fuzby.com/filetransfer/newcage2.jpg

Also where does the EVF attach? It would be good to have a one that rotates on only one axis and is more burly than the noga arm from NAB.

It's really cool to watch the camera evolve so publicly and so quickly.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Alexander Nikishin]

Matt, I was thinking the same thing, but the half-handle design isn't very sturdy for picking up the camera, especially if equipped with a large zoom.

Also, it still doesn't leave enough room for the drive/battery to be top mounted anyway.

If you need the drive/battery top mounted, you're most likely doing steadicam work, in which case you wouldn't need a top handle necessarily.

So if you really need the drive/battery top mounted, remove the handle and slide on the universal top mount.

[TimothyD]

I like the new designs quite a bit...

I really dig the handle in front of the shoulder pad. If you guys could just make a nice little inexpensive zoom rocker control that could be placed wherever you want (including on that grip somewhere) that would be quite swank... Right hand on the lower grip, and left hand on the focus/aperture...

Tim

[Brook Willard]

Timothy, have you seen the SuperGrip?

[Häakon]

I actually like the two-sided handle much better... in a handheld situation, I think you'll appreciate the weight to the back of the camera instead of on top. Having the handle run the entire length of the top vastly increases stability and durability, and that's what's most important about it to me. Though I suppose they could make both... :-P

[Häakon]

If you need the drive/battery top mounted, you're most likely doing steadicam work, in which case you wouldn't need a top handle necessarily.
Actually, if you're doing Steadicam work, you'll probably power the rig through the 12V connector using the battery on the sled.

[Matt Uhry]

Alexander, when you shoot from a tripod the red mag being on top will be better, the battery on the back is in the way of the lcd. and the extra length is going to be undesirable. The handle is going to be strong enough from one side - think about the cranks on a bicycle. Where the handle attach it would be that thick... it's not going to crack or break however wild we get with a giant zooms.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Alexander Nikishin]

Actually, if you're doing Steadicam work, you'll probably power the rig through the 12V connector using the battery on the sled.

I would imagine that the drive would still be top mounted preferably though?

I know that many people will shoot on flash but personally, I don't want anything to do with solid state recording until recording capacity increases.

[Brook Willard]

Matt, while you do make a good point about having the drive weight too far back on a tripod, putting it on top of the camera could overload some heads. Raising the CG on a head causes a significant camera weight increase in the eye of the head.

But that's a discussion for another thread. We'll all rig up the cameras differently. :)

[Jaime Vallés]

Just saw all the renders. Looks absolutely beautiful! I'm very excited that the handle is included in both packages. Keep up the good work!

[Alex Boothby]

THANK YOU JIM!!!!!!!! THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED! :greedy:

Tons of mounting points, lightweight, protective, carry handles, just perfect.

Hehe... I was kinda waiting for your post Alexander. I too am a fan of the original cage with tons-o-mounting points. Nice to see it back in action. :biggrin:

[Alexander Nikishin]

Alexander, when you shoot from a tripod the red mag being on top will be better, the battery on the back is in the way of the lcd. and the extra length is going to be undesirable. The handle is going to be strong enough from one side - think about the cranks on a bicycle. Where the handle attach it would be that thick... it's not going to crack or break however wild we get with a giant zooms.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

After handling the camera at NAB on the 2060 and 1030 heads, it was clear that there was no problem in concerns with the length of the camera for work on sticks.

The only situation I can think of where shortening the camera's length may be necessary is when in a tight space, such as your friend's Honda Civic, or when on a steadicam.

In which case, I'll just unmount the top handle and slide the unviersal top mount onto the rails.

The problem with the half handle is, the handle, even when cut in half, is still too long to allow for the drive/battery to be top mounted. UNLESS it can be mounted horizontally to the handle, not vertically.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Hehe... I was kinda waiting for your post Alexander. I too am a fan of the original cage with tons-o-mounting points. Nice to see it back in action. :biggrin:

It's perfect. This setup has everything I would ask for.

[TimothyD]

Timothy, have you seen the SuperGrip?

Hi Brook,

Yeah, and I'd love one... But that's more complex, and bound to be more expensive than what I was thinking of...

What I had in mind is just a simple zoom rocker, maybe two versions, one to control the Red Motor, and another that is simply a remote for a normal 2/3" zoom.

That way you could place the zoom rocker anywhere you want, including the arm of a tripod head, or anywhere on the camera. A nice quick release design would be a very versatile addition to the package I think.

The Supergrip would be like the deluxe control system, and the zoom rocker would be the basic version, which when used in coordination with the programmable controls on the EVF would probably give you a lot of options for whatever you needed to control.

Anyway, I like the new designs a lot, and I for one vote for the M16 style grip, though I think that a single mounted option would be nice to offer too. I can't wait to see what crazy hardware these guys dream up in the future...

Tim

[tj williams]

Love the new ears on the PL mount. I hope they don't protrude into the area where the gears on short lenses like old style Zeiss speeds? (motor interference) or large barrell lenses? also too much protursion gives us somthing to ping the rear element on during dark of night lens changes.

The new shoulder pad lock between the lower rods is nice, and looks more reachable while on your shoulder making the transition from centered over the Sachtler plate. Will it still be reachable with the light weight support adapter installed near the front of the camera on the lower rods?

I can imagine one obvious use for the upper rods, they are a great place to install the third motor on short zooms like the 18/50

I love that the two upper rod supports are the same height so the low mode steadi plate can attach easily to both. For some plates without the correct hole or shorter plates it would be nice to have an optional third piece that was the same height and could slide on the upper rails to line up two 3/8 16 holes with two steadi plate holes so no spinning camera.

I just know all these mounting holes are helicoiled??

Pulling everything in tight to the camera has created a very aesthetic body. I bet it's also a bunch lighter. Kudos to the cage designer, This is a cage like lycra.

[Roberto B]

very cool.. handheldy.. pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease, go there!

i have no money for a new stabilizer purchase..

this should rock on the steadicam flyer.. can it be?

no more than 14/15 lbs!



edit
(lens included and fairly accessorized, of course!)

[Don Woods]

THat is so bitchin looking

[Paul Hazlett]

now were cookin with gas!!!!

that top handle is perfect. and two sided is much better for balance.

I think the combination of form and function make this the best set up yet.

did you guys hire a feng shuie master for this redesign?

[Ralph Oshiro]

LOVE IT!!! Love the new top handle--that's what more of us ENG/EFP guys are used to. I like how it's more "integrated." I like how Jim throws us these little tidbits every once in a while to keep us at bay.

[Brook Willard]

Love the new ears on the PL mount. I hope they don't protrude into the area where the gears on short lenses like old style Zeiss speeds? (motor interference) or large barrell lenses? also too much protursion gives us somthing to ping the rear element on during dark of night lens changes.

I was thinking the same thing. On most cameras, the lens mount is flush against the body, necessitating that the PL ears extend forwards into lens territory. With this camera's design, they could potentially be turned around... see the picture.

I haven't thought much about it, but this could have some nifty benefits. The PL ears appear to be attached via two small screws. It'd be way cool if they could be turned around.

[Poi Boy]

Keep the tid bits coming Jim, otherwise we get stupid like on the last news thread. We are so easy !
Aloha
-A

[Dan Blanchett]

Sweet! I was looking for a slimmed down design like this. It will make shooting in those tight spaces all the easier.

[Ralph Oshiro]

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/8213/1copyrw2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
1. Love the Photoshop visualization Alex!
2. If you had like some extra spare time, and some extra inclination as well, would you consider making a version where the top rails extend past the back of the camera, with the HDD cage and battery mount hanging "underslung" from the extended portion of the two top rails? That would probably best resemble my preferred personal configuration.
3. [To RED: Are the baseplate and the bottom rail assembly one-piece?]
4. If I top-mount the HDD+brick, and if the bottom rail assembly and baseplate are in fact one unit, then I would simply add a Sachtler quick-release plate directly to the camera's base. This lowers the camera's overall CG, and permits quick re-mounting to various other Sachtler receiver plate-equipped camera supports.
5. Speaking for myself, since I'm going RED "light" and am planning on using smaller Nikkor lenses, I will not need lower rails to hold a mattebox. Yes, I know, a camera this cool without a mattebox will look "naked" but, I'll probably end up using a still camera or medium format mattebox instead. This is why I keep harping about losing the RED dovetail baseplate. I'd prefer to have a lower profile, and lower overall CG, and the ability to mount third-party, quick-release plates/receivers directly to my camera bodies whenever possible.
6. Let me repeat . . . LOVE the new top handle!

[C.H.Haskell]

Just getting back from a shoot to check up on the RED world only to find out that it has been shrunken down to a guerilla friendly weapon of choice for infiltrating those hard to get spots!

Score for RED team again. Endless are the possibilities…

Best

[Casey Green]

Thanks for continuing to improve the design. The weight is quite an important issue, but I personally like having as many options as possible.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Thanks for continuing to improve the design. The weight is quite an important issue, but I personally like having as many options as possible.
Yes, thank you RED people! Don't let my whiny posts disguise the fact how much I truly appreciate the on-going design process. I know that we'll all have many options from which to choose when all designs are locked for release.

[David Limpus]

A small concern is the knob hanging out the back of the camera. What is the chance on that getting wiped off first in a compact configuration.

[david farland]

A small concern is the knob hanging out the back of the camera. .....

I knew the camera had balls but.........geez,

Sorry my mistake......you're talking about the DOP!

dave,

[SF Geek]

That design sure gives the A-minima a run for it's money. Wow, I'm actually a shameless fanboy today.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Such a lovely camera!!!

[Charles Perkins]

will i still be able to buy something like the old cage where there were actual handles making up the four corners of the cage?

[Jannard]

sort of... imagine two sets of these placed front and rear instead of the middle. And they lock down solid.


http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_1178646216.jpg

Jim

[Michael Mann]

Congratulations, great new designs!
What is going to be the weight of the lightest basic RED configuration (without lens and battery)?

[Brook Willard]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1179186962.jpg
http://www.engadget.com/media/2006/04/redonecamera.jpg

Ahh... can't help but love the retro a little bit. It's great to see all those holes back on the arms. :)

How far she's come, eh?

[Alexander Nikishin]

sort of... imagine two sets of these placed front and rear instead of the middle. And they lock down solid.
Jim

For you Jim. :biggrin:

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5866/4jimcopypj5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[jamesedwelland]

I think Jarred said the mounting holes are 1/4 size Many accessories and fluid heads have 3/8th whitworth thread screw attachments. Its easy to downsize the hole to 1/4 with a small screw in threaded collar. Converting from 1/4 to 3/8 means drilling out....not quite so simple. Should at least some of the attachment points be 3/8th if they are not already?

Cheers

james

[Alexander Nikishin]

And just to get a handle on things....horrible pun intended....

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5594/4jim2copyan3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[david farland]

Why are those side handles there?
To pick up the camera!
Doesn't matter.....

Someone, hiree, owner, fido is going to pick up the camera with one of them.

All I see is 2 locking nuts that may fail if not done up correctly. Well 4 actually and I'm imagining there's 2 x 2 more on the other side.
Two chances (per handle) for that handle with it's 15lb payload to spin out of my hand, onto the ground and on the plane back to the Red factory for repair.
Also, please tell me that the top 1/4 turn locking assembly, if not tightened correctly, won't just slip off the rail!

Cheers,

stop press: Just read Jarrad's original thread & I realise I've not added anything new...carry on!.....

except... I like the horizontal bar on top as it's parallel to the load and let's me pickup/put down the camera with one hand, where's those vertical side carry bars mean i'll always need two hands unless I don't mind swinging it down on the battery/drive/matte box/follow focus first, and getting more dusk etc on the upward facing lens.

[Charles Perkins]

thanks Jim and Alexander, that is exactly what i was hoping for/

[Tony Lorentzen]

Pretty! Jim - can I hire your SolidWorks guy? He does a nice job!

[Jannard]

Pretty! Jim - can I hire your SolidWorks guy? He does a nice job!

nope... :-)

Jim

[wshultz]

nope... :-)

Jim

Jim probably has all these guys insured for millions. And locked up...

[Jarred Land]

Two chances (per handle) for that handle with it's 15lb payload to spin out of my hand, onto the ground and on the plane back to the Red factory for repair.

how do you think we plan to make money heh heh heh :)

kidding aside... those side handles lock down tight. and the good thing is that if they are loose, you will know it pretty quickly, because it will move around pretty easily.

That said.. if you do something stupid and forget to tighten some bolts... bad stuff is gonna happen. Just like if you forget to tighten the nuts on your car's wheels..

[roryhinds]

Hi Jarred

Do you know why RED are marking their lenses with F stops and not T stops found on other Cinema lenses?

Regards
Rory

[Jarred Land]

way to take things way off topic Rory.

Our lenses have really accurate F stops, and all of our lenses are calibrated to the sensor and the loss from the front through to the back plane is minimized as much as possible. Your not loosing a full stop between F and T stops like some older lenses.

[RED-Tank]

Thank you Jim & Jarred, this compact design just hook my heart even further :D.

[goldyprog]

Reminds me of a Lumiere concoction from the 1910s... very retro

[roryhinds]

Hey Jarred sorry of taking the topic way off.. another thread has been going for sometime now with no response from RED.

It does seem strange to go F stop when the industry uses T stops so having a mix of RED lenses on set will cause a problem.

Why not make RED lenses industry standard for Cinema lenses and having them in T stops?

[Michael Hastings]

I like the new design, seems cleaner and more solid. I have an issue. I posted this on the display readout placement thread but maybe belongs here too.




2. The second reason for this is the overall rigidity of the camera, the way it is, two fairly heavy items (the drive and the battery) are not directly attached to the body.


Its been discussed before, but the summary of all of this is that the LCD display and joystick are where they are for a reason.

I understand that it has been determined that rear is the best place for it, but I wonder if there could be a few hardmount points on the rear below the LCD - i.e. threaded posts or ridges that would extend farther back than the LCD (say four 1/2" or 5/8" diameter posts sticking out an inch or so, with 1/4"-20 threads and it would be nice if they flared out at the base for extra strength and aesthetics) for hard mounting of a battery plate or reddrive or whatever - without having to use the rails. This could also be say two 1/2 wide by an inch and a half or two inches long ridges running vertically below the LCD sticking out an inch or so with 1/4-20s in the face.

The option of the rails is nice but not necessarily all the time, the hard points would be useful and maybe more solid. Think of running with the camera and how unsecure the reddrive and battery would feel on rails. I think I could make a hard mount that would be more solid but would need some place to attach it and would rather not have to drill into the backplate myself.

I could draw this if necessary.

[Finner]

Originally Posted by AquaVideoRed206
Think of running with the camera and how unsecure the reddrive and battery would feel on rails.

I have had lenses that weigh over 50 pounds alone (pannavision 3 to 1 or hubble as it has been dubbed) that have 95% or more of there weight supported on very long rods. A little battery and reddrive are nothing on a pair of short rods and will be rock solid.





I think I could make a hard mount that would be more solid but would need some place to attach it and would rather not have to drill into the backplate myself.

I think this is the craziest statement I have ever seen on this site.

[Michael Hastings]

I have had lenses that weigh over 50 pounds alone (pannavision 3 to 1 or hubble as it has been dubbed) that have 95% or more of there weight supported on very long rods. A little battery and reddrive are nothing on a pair of short rods and will be rock solid.

Yes, and the lens was hardmount attached to the camera at the PL mount - a 3 point attachment which means the rods can't flex unless you pull the mount loose. Look maybe the rods are plenty solid, but that isn't an example that should convince anyone.


I think I could make a hard mount that would be more solid but would need some place to attach it and would rather not have to drill into the backplate myself.


I think this is the craziest statement I have ever seen on this site.

Well, I guess I should be proud that I have achieved the craziest statement on this site. But what specifically is so crazy - that I might be able to make a more solid hard mount or that I would consider drilling and tapping into the backplate?

Look my point and the earlier post's point that I was piggybacking on is that, for example virtually every ENG/EFP style broadcast camera has a V-mount or Anton Bauer mount plate screwed - i.e. hardmounted - to the back chassis of the camera and it is very solid. It isn't uncommon to have multiple battery boxes, wireless transmitters, receivers, etc. hanging back there either and because of those hard attachment points they are pretty solid. Yes, the rails would work OK, but maybe not as nicely. Also, most of the rail attachments use squeeze/friction fittings to hold stuff on which is okay and easy to adjust and also easier to come loose - some situations work better with nice solid screws.

Not to mention there are some applications where it would be nice not to have the additional base plate that the rods are attached to - for example an underwater housing - and it would be nice to have hard attachment points at the rear for those situations.

The upshot is what I described might be useful and wouldn't be hard to machine or diecast. I think Jim's Solidworks guy could add what I am talking about in about 10 minutes - maybe just additional material and threaded holes around where the screws attach the backplate to the main body - it wouldn't even be adding - it would just mean machining a little less away on the CNC. The RED has supposedly been all about being easily configured in multiple ways. (The RED cage is just an add on with about a hundred of these attachment points.) All I'm saying is a couple of mount points on the back of the camera as well might be a good thing and is easy to do at this stage.

Lovingly, Psychotically yours,
Mike

[Tony Lorentzen]

nope... :-)

Jim

Dammit. You can't blaim a guy for trying, huh :whistling:

[Ace]

Once you guys physically have this thing in your hands, these renders are going right out the window.. There will be crazy shit that people will be doing with the configurations that not even RED has thought of yet.

[Michael Hastings]

Once you guys physically have this thing in your hands, these renders are going right out the window.. There will be crazy shit that people will be doing with the configurations that not even RED has thought of yet.

Once it gets into our hands it will be too late to make the minor change I've suggested.

PS while I am at it, considering the attachment points I've requested, they may also want to consider whether it is the best design idea, particularly with regard to handling and shipping, to have the little joystick be the part that sticks out the farthest on the back of the base camera.

[Ace]

I personally think that the rods will be strong enough to withstand the problem you speak of.. As long as they are long enough to be cantilevered from the back.

[Jannard]

I understand that it has been determined that rear is the best place for it, but I wonder if there could be a few hardmount points on the rear below the LCD - i.e. threaded posts or ridges that would extend farther back than the LCD (say four 1/2" or 5/8" diameter posts sticking out an inch or so, with 1/4"-20 threads and it would be nice if they flared out at the base for extra strength and aesthetics) for hard mounting of a battery plate or reddrive or whatever - without having to use the rails. This could also be say two 1/2 wide by an inch and a half or two inches long ridges running vertically below the LCD sticking out an inch or so with 1/4-20s in the face.

The option of the rails is nice but not necessarily all the time, the hard points would be useful and maybe more solid. Think of running with the camera and how unsecure the reddrive and battery would feel on rails. I think I could make a hard mount that would be more solid but would need some place to attach it and would rather not have to drill into the backplate myself.

I could draw this if necessary.

The rails are much more stable than we could ever make the rear of the camera.

Jim

[Greg Voevodsky]

Any chance on mounting the handle directly to the camera without the rails or mounting bracket?

Less is more for me!
If not how about a handle with mount that mounts directly.

Also for fun,
How about putting a Mag flashlight into the camera handle and WA LA - you're eye light is ready for your close up!

[Ace]

Its about being smart with structure. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantilever

The cameras rail and body lend itself to creating incredibly strong and rigid structures due to the unique ability to position components and the numerous joints.

[Michael Hastings]

I personally think that the rods will be strong enough to withstand the problem you speak of.. As long as they are long enough to be cantilevered from the back.


The rails are much more stable than we could ever make the rear of the camera.

Jim

It still doesn't address the issue of operating in stripped down mode without baseplate/rails but if adding a little extra meat and 4 1/4-20 tapped holes on the rear (similar to what exists on both left and right sides) is too much to add then I guess we will have to make do with a KLUGECAGE extended from the rear top/bottom side holes.

PS. I really would like some of these mountholes, but don't take the tone too negatively - I'm trying to have some fun here too. The engineering delay may have pushed my mind into Rube Goldberg mode - I think these mountholes would also greatly facilitate the installation of a gimbaled coffee cup holder, and again the rails would get in the way.

Hey, Sharkguy - little help here?

Again, Lovingly, Psychotically,
Rube ... I mean Mike

[Antoine Fabi]

way way way WAAAYYYY better for my typical usage. LIGHTWEIGHT.

he hee looks like a modern S16 ...NICE.

I appreciate the effort to constantly improve all aspects of this camera.

Now...euh...where will i fix my battery and drive ?

[Ralph Oshiro]

. . . virtually every ENG/EFP style broadcast camera has a V-mount or Anton Bauer mount plate screwed - i.e. hardmounted - to the back chassis of the camera and it is very solid. It isn't uncommon to have multiple battery boxes, wireless transmitters, receivers, etc.


It still doesn't address the issue of operating in stripped down mode without baseplate/rails . . .

I actually agree with a lot of what Aqua is trying to say. I don't know why all of you are jumping on him just because the rails don't fit his needs.

[Michael Hastings]

Thanks, Ralph

By the way, I will definitely be getting the rails. I just see several situations where a few solid mountholes on the back would be greatly beneficial and usages with and without the rails.

[Gbabymogul]

I like the direction they're heading in, but i don't see where one could mount an EVF and LCD plus swing arm without it getting in the way...IMO, the bridge plate with the adjustable handle was better for stripped down use. But, since i'm in the minority here i guess adios to that design...

I recently worked with the Aaton top handle and i found it refreshingly simple. A lemo connector on the back to the LCD placed on the front of the handle with a slim bar mounting bracket (which could be used to add an LED for example) with a 3/8th inch connector to the body, adjustable to rotate the handle.

If i can get away without adding the rails to the top that's what i'll try and do, but so far it doesn't look possible.

I'm not being negative and we all have different needs, though.
:banned:

[Häakon]

You can't make a camera the size of the RED ONE and expect to have a place to hardmount everything under the sun to it. That's exactly what all of the mounting points are for - to give you that added flexibility. I'm actually really happy about the return of the "arms" with lots of holes... giving it further thought, I think I would prefer those to the padded grips after all. They're definitely more stable and secure, and shrink the overall footprint of the camera more than the padded ones do.

The team has done an unbelievable job of keeping the camera lightweight and compact (a major concern for many of us), while packing so much functionality into it. The concept from day one is that this would be a modular system. I could just as easily say that I DON'T want a battery mount hardmounted anywhere on the body, becuase I'll be flying it on Steadicam a good deal of the time (where the battery is mounted on the sled, not the body) and that would unecessarily add bulk to the system I don't want or need. The point is, we all have our preferences but at least the way they've done it allows the camera to be stripped down if you need to. You can't do that with a bulky ENG camera. I think Jim stated a long time ago, "it's easier to grow the camera, much harder to shrink it." That has been the goal all along. Besides, there's no real estate on the body to be hardmounting a V-mount plate even if you were able to move the rear LCD somewhere else. The camera isn't that big.

We're getting down to the wire and I think it's awesome that they're still tweaking while they wait for the "engineering delay" to be cleared up, but at this point the major parts of the body seem to be pretty locked down and in place. Let's work with them to fine-tune the system - this is going to be the primary body many of us use for a long time! :-)

[Finner]

Yes, and the lens was hardmount attached to the camera at the PL mount - a 3 point attachment which means the rods can't flex unless you pull the mount loose. Look maybe the rods are plenty solid, but that isn't an example that should convince anyone.

Yes it should convince everyone as a PL mount holds very little weight. The key here is the rods are very long and don't miss the point that the lense weighs over 50 (five, zero) pounds. Also there is a 6x6 matte box at the end of the end of the very long rods rods often with filters in them and weighs a lot. Simple point here "Rods are bomber".




But what specifically is so crazy - that I might be able to make a more solid hard mount or that I would consider drilling and tapping into the backplate?

What is crazy is that you would drill into your brand new camera and void the warranty to do something that is completely unnessasary.




virtually every ENG/EFP style broadcast camera has a V-mount or Anton Bauer mount plate screwed - i.e. hardmounted - to the back chassis of the camera and it is very solid.

Virtually every eng/efp camera including varicams and f900's are built like fisher price kids toys in comparison to cine cameras (I am not saying that HD cameras do a bad job but they are built with plastic that wobbles and bends and breaks 10x easier then a film camera.). I am not sure if you were at NAB but I assume not by what you are concerned with. Trust me this camera is built around a structure and cassing that is rock solid and that goes for the way all the accessories attatch as well.



Also, most of the rail attachments use squeeze/friction fittings to hold stuff on which is okay and easy to adjust and also easier to come loose - some situations work better with nice solid screws.


The squeeze friction hold of a properly mounted rod is bomber. I would trust it far over the screw of a plastic body sony or panasonic any day.

I think I understand what you mainly want and that is a shorter camera for underwater housings. I have done quite a few underwater gigs and just finished an underwater music video last month. With 35mm cameras there is no direct mount for the batteries so we just velcro them to the place that helps balance the housing best. This will be an advantage of what you can do with the drive and battery and because everything moves so smooth in water the velcro holds fine.

I went through the form fit and function of the camera mechanics at NAB and it is ROCK solid so don't worry.

[Paris Remillard]

>he hee looks like a modern S16 ...NICE.<

Looks like a 4k Bolex. Put a lens turret on there and a leather strap on top and you're set. (The original render, I mean.)

[Ace]

Aqua sorry I think I misunderstood you.. I thought you were talking about something else

The battery mounting point does seem to be the weakest link when talking about the ultimate compact configuration. I wonder weather the battery can indeed be mounted beneath the camera for the non rail version of the camera.

Edit: I think Im reading another thread and replying to another! lol.. I think this post belongs in the LCD position thread...

[Jannard]

Put the battery on your belt or in your cargo pants pocket for the lightest, most compact camera config...

Jim

[Evin Grant]

How bout' a Red battery belt pouch Jim? I assume there is going to be a long (6ft) battery cable, yes? I don't see one in the shop.

[Michael Hastings]

Before I get started let me quote from another user:



But I think stability issues with the rails won´t be much of a problem, usually they´re really sturdy, just like finner mentioned.
Quite a lot operators in the U.S. even violently guide the camera with their hands on the mattebox, which is connected to the rods(rails). But I still don´t like that idea of a rails based system for those items. Rails/rods are good for several purposes, be it mbs, ff, grips - but not batteries - just look how far that thing stuck out when Matt Trembley or Brook used the camera in handheld mode.

I fear we´ll see some Red-related knockouts in the future...

So let me say upfront: I already said I will definitely be getting the rails as well, but I think there is some use to other configurations. Besides the points I will get to, I also feel the way kalone does: that the rails with battery and drive are a bit klugey for some situations. I've shot a lot of different things such as shooting in the confined areas of a bus, airplane, or boat; underneath the basket at NBA games; in large crowds; climbing the near vertical steps at Chitzen Itza (try getting in there with a cine-kitted RED without permits and major bribes); etc. where it would be a major hassle to have all that hanging behind you. I don't have the perfect answer, I just know that there are a number of things that would be facilitated by having four threaded screw mount points - I'll call them nubs - on the back just like they have on both sides.

Let me respond to your post point by point - and remember, I appreciate all of your input - so this is just friendly conversation among REDlovers.





Yes, and the lens was hardmount attached to the camera at the PL mount - a 3 point attachment which means the rods can't flex unless you pull the mount loose. Look maybe the rods are plenty solid, but that isn't an example that should convince anyone.


Yes it should convince everyone as a PL mount holds very little weight. The key here is the rods are very long and don't miss the point that the lense weighs over 50 (five, zero) pounds. Also there is a 6x6 matte box at the end of the end of the very long rods rods often with filters in them and weighs a lot. Simple point here "Rods are bomber".

My real point there was you have 3 point attachment which is generally more solid and secure than two points. (see my ebay ad for the twopod I bought that never seemed to work right. :biggrin:) Second, OK, I'm convinced the rods are strong and solid for everything up to hooking up the trailer hitch for the boat. But one of the things I really like about the RED is that you can strip it down to be very compact (unlike say an F900) without the baseplate, shoulder pad, etc. And I would just like the same kind of screw mount holes on the back as on the sides - I think they would be useful for some things.



But what specifically is so crazy - that I might be able to make a more solid hard mount or that I would consider drilling and tapping into the backplate?





What is crazy is that you would drill into your brand new camera and void the warranty to do something that is completely unnessasary.

That is exactly what I am trying to avoid by requesting simple built up mount holes on the back like on the sides that would add maybe 1/2 an ounce to the weight and another 90 seconds or so on the CNC machine.



virtually every ENG/EFP style broadcast camera has a V-mount or Anton Bauer mount plate screwed - i.e. hardmounted - to the back chassis of the camera and it is very solid.


Virtually every eng/efp camera including varicams and f900's are built like fisher price kids toys in comparison to cine cameras (I am not saying that HD cameras do a bad job but they are built with plastic that wobbles and bends and breaks 10x easier then a film camera.). I am not sure if you were at NAB but I assume not by what you are concerned with. Trust me this camera is built around a structure and cassing that is rock solid and that goes for the way all the accessories attatch as well.

I was at NAB and spent at least two hours on 2 separate days going through it, got my picture taken with Jim, spent an hour (just listening mostly) in the conversation with Jim and Vince Pace about 3D and with the DP from the Peter Jackson film, etc. so I am pretty dialed in on what it is.

Although I think most of the better broadcast cameras have diecast metal chassis, you are right that they are flimsy compared to the solidity of RED, but, in addition to the 4 pin XLR power input, they do also have a way to mount the battery in a very solid and fairly compact way. I think the threaded screw "nubs" might allow some options for the same.

One possibility for shoulder use would be to simply have a flat plate say 3" wide by 10 inches long attached to those nubs with the V Plate mounted at the bottom (maybe bent outward slightly) so the battery was below the level of the camera sticking out only 2 inches from the back of your shoulder blade so my NBA/crowd/plane cam doesn't do the RED knockout everytime I turn. Just one example of something that would be a lot easier to implement with my backplate "REDNUBS" - even if you were using front rails for lens motors, matte box, etc.



Also, most of the rail attachments use squeeze/friction fittings to hold stuff on which is okay and easy to adjust and also easier to come loose - some situations work better with nice solid screws.


The squeeze friction hold of a properly mounted rod is bomber. I would trust it far over the screw of a plastic body sony or panasonic any day.

I would trust it over a screw in plastic too, but I think there are certain things that would be better hard (screw) mounted to the REDNUBS - on the solid body of the RED. If it was a big technical or economic challenge then maybe it wouldn't be worth it, but again we are talking 90 seconds or so of CNC time. If it helps I will pay for the extra CNC time for the first 250 cameras which would get past my #206, and then either RED could absorb the future ones or make a small change to the CNC Program. (PS If necessary to control the cost they could leave the holes untapped and those of us who want it can tap it ourselves.)



I think I understand what you mainly want and that is a shorter camera for underwater housings. I have done quite a few underwater gigs and just finished an underwater music video last month. With 35mm cameras there is no direct mount for the batteries so we just velcro them to the place that helps balance the housing best. This will be an advantage of what you can do with the drive and battery and because everything moves so smooth in water the velcro holds fine..

No, actually length is the easiest thing to deal with it for the housing - side to side/up down is more critical for keeping the volume down. We are more interested in keeping to the base configuration and eliminating the base plate and rails since the mountplate of the housing takes the place of the rails/shoulder pad baseplate.

You're right, Velcro is great stuff. But it would be nice to have the option of not having multiple things mounted in multiple places which makes installation and removal much easier - particularly on a bouncing boat and in situations where you don't have an extra camera for the topside. Not a deal breaker if it wasn't possible to have the little threaded nubs on the RED but since I can't see how the nubs causes other significant problems and they are cheap why not. Let me turn it around - why not eliminate the nubs on the top corners - they aren't absolutely necessary and we could just VELCRO any knick knacks we need up there - or if you want something really solid I have some large stainless steel screw clamps that would mount the rails, handle, or anything else.


I went through the form fit and function of the camera mechanics at NAB and it is ROCK solid so don't worry.

I agree the form, fit, and function are all ROCK solid in the configurations they showed. I just think there might be situations where something could be screwed onto the nubs on the back of the camera and be useful.

The RED is supposed to be modular - presumably to allow multiple configurations and therefore greater utility. But greater utility isn't always achieved by adding stuff in multiple layers i.e. having to have the base plate or the baseplate and rear rails to get something mounted. My suggestion is that a little forethought in adding 4 more small nubs that have almost no downside could add substantial utility for a number of users, and it is even possible that they might be useful for something even if you had the rails. Again, maximize the potential with minimal downside.

New input:


Put the battery on your belt or in your cargo pants pocket for the lightest, most compact camera config...

Jim


Of course putting the battery in your pocket is a solution - but is it the only or best - I thought I gave up that style of shooting when I sold the BVU150. I am not talking only about the battery or even any one specific situation - again, it is the overall utility that I think could be enhanced with minimal cost or downside. REDNUBBERS UNITE! :biggrin:

Who is this Jannard guy anyway? :biggrin: :biggrin:




Evin: That's two biggrins. Please don't ban me.

[Ace]

Put the battery on your belt or in your cargo pants pocket for the lightest, most compact camera config...

Jim

Cargo pants, why didnt I think of that. Absoloutely. Wearable components make light hands work. Thats the good thing about this design, You could pretty much treat the setup as a redefinable organism everytime its used to suit the particular situation. Which begs the question.. Next iteration of RED can comprise of the camera as a backpack, and all youd hold by hand is the sensor/lens!

[Michael Hastings]

Cargo pants, why didnt I think of that. ... Which begs the question.. Next iteration of RED can comprise of the camera as a backpack, and all youd hold by hand is the sensor/lens!

YES!!!


But seriously acehole now nobody will want to read all that cr*p I wrote. :biggrin:

[TimothyD]

Ok,

Backpack with a laptop's guts in it and a RAID, two pocket red's mounted to a bike helmet, and two beer holders with the tubes on either side.

Stereophonic 3D drunkvision anyone???

I'll buy that for a dollar...

[Ace]

YES!!!


But seriously acehole now nobody will want to read all that cr*p I wrote. :biggrin:

I actually meant that as a serious proposal for the next RED camera not this one.. just to clarify!

[Dale Launer]

[QUOTE=Jannard;43010]sort of... imagine two sets of these placed front and rear instead of the middle. And they lock down solid.


I'd like to see the handle(s) at a slightly different angle - rather than the up periscope look - imagine the handles pointing forward (like, say, the old Bealieu R16) and outwards a little - like a set of BMX handles but flipped around.

Now this sounds like a joke, but it isn't - image those same handles, now flipped around in proper bicycle fashion, but pointed down and out) mounted in the middle of the camer and holding the camera down like some codpiece/divining rod (that's the joke part) - so you can walk with it around waist level directly in front of - very stable and a nice angle for handheld work (and suprisingly stable hand-held work). What's nice about that angle is that you can follow talent and show the ceiling.

And another possibly, being able to hold the camera overhead, pointing downwards slightly while following talent (or have them follow you). LCD screen mounted appropriately.

The point is - I'd like to see the current design so you can angle the handles in still another axis. Holding the grips up and down, or out in periscope fashion isn't quite as comfortable or useful as iallowing another axis to be used.

Oh, the endless possibilities of a modular design!

I do like the new M16 style handle - it looks more robust than the original.

Also - any chance of being able to put a start/stop button on one of the grips?

Thanks for listening!

Dale

[Andrew Benz]

Hi Dale,

Great to see you post here, I have followed your posts on cml and I have always enjoyed your perspective. I hope (and feel) these front handles will be as flexible as you described... if not it will evolve.

Cheers,

Andrew

[Jannard]

[QUOTE=Jannard;43010]sort of... imagine two sets of these placed front and rear instead of the middle. And they lock down solid.


I'd like to see the handle(s) at a slightly different angle - rather than the up periscope look - imagine the handles pointing forward (like, say, the old Bealieu R16) and outwards a little - like a set of BMX handles but flipped around.
Dale

Of course you can do that...

I guess we need to post 1000 different configurations so you can see all these pieces will do.

Jim

[Clayton Harper]

Jim,

I need to just type the ultimate fanboy message at this point.

Love the entire red team and all reduser members!

Even Chuck Colburn. ;)

[Keith Nealy]

Jim,
The problem with battery belts, and drives in pockets or on belts is that you are still tethered to the camera. In order to put the camera down - done very often in certain genres, you lose everything you gained in weight reduction. Been there, done that... not fun, hard on cables.

I recommend good, safe, hard mounting to the camera - possibly in multiple positions to accomodate different styles.

Regarding the rear Battery/Drive position and the potential conflict with the LCD and the joystick/buttons, why not create a mount that drops much lower in the back on a sub-level, thereby lowering the center of gravity because it would fall beneath the shoulder level above a curved shoulder pad and the top would clear the rear view of the LCD and buttons?

Carrying that further, what if the rear LCD panel were on a hinge allowing it to rotate to the left side to accomodate a side view or a rear view depending on style. That may be difficult and put too much stress on the wiring but you guys are geniuses... right?

This is far better than watching paint dry.

Pass me another Primo... I think Jims gonna do another drawing...

Wait for it.... :w00t:

[Isa Totah]

I never seen a company like Red, transparant -- constantly listening, adapting and improving at a record pace. And this before the first camera has been released. This approach bodes well for the long term future of Red and its impact on filmmaking in the years to come.

I love the new design -- the slimmer, the better by all means! If possible, I would love to see the cage slim down as well, at least in terms of weight.

[Ralph Oshiro]

I guess we need to post 1000 different configurations so you can see all these pieces will do.
Oh boy, Jim! Can't wait to see those!!!

[Jannard]

The cage and rail system are now down to minimums... they don't need to get any lighter (IMHO). They are light and substantial now. If you want the battery onboard, there are 15 ways to do that. On the back, on the top, underneath, on the side, angled, or in your pocket. I'm not sure how many more options we can provide. Please tell me another system that does it better and we'll take another swing at it. But the other system needs to give you at least as many good choices as we are.

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

Jim, did you play with Erector sets growing up? :-)

[Jarred Land]

the great thing about having all these modular pieces is that you can discover kick-ass cage combinations almost by accident..

[Brook Willard]

Please tell me another system that does it better and we'll take another swing at it.

Oh, I slay me... :whistling:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

the great thing about having all these modular pieces is that you can discover kick-ass cage combinations almost by accident..

All this really makes me want to buy my cage and accessories well in advance of the camera, just so I can play with them. :nerd:

[Häakon]

What you've got now is great, Jim. People will always want to nit-pick, but I think you have hit on a GREAT combination of simplicity and functionality. These latest renders satisfy me 100%.

[Ace]

Me too. The thing is, I think people are concentrating on the set configuration when what they should be looking at is the enabling architecture of the system.

Hey, invent your own dolly system that runs off suspended cable instead of tracks.. Mount some pulley wheels and create an "air" dolly.. Mount some skateboard wheels and an arm to a skateboard and you got a 4K skate cam... Whatever it is, you got the grip to do it.

[Mark B.]

http://www.fuzby.com/filetransfer/newcage2.jpg


I agree with the request for a shoulder pad that curves slightly down at the back - without it the camera might slide forward while the operator is at rest. Also, a lanyard hole added at the butt of the shoulder brace could be useful.

[Alexander Nikishin]

I'm not a fan of the half-handle.

If it is an option to the full handle, sure, but not as a replacement.

The full handle will be perfect for low-hand shooting and being able to counter balance on the back and front end of the handle is ideal.

[jamesedwelland]

...
with a 3/8th inch connector to the body.....

3/8th...

james w

[JustinGD]

Please tell me another system that does it better and we'll take another swing at it. But the other system needs to give you at least as many good choices as we are.

Jim

Optimus Prime runs a close second in versatility, but RED is more than meets the eye.

[Chris Gearhart]

Oh, I slay me... :whistling:

Brook, man! . . . lol :pinch:

[david farland]

Optimus Prime Action Master...of course, but the Power Master...umm, we'd probably need a shoot out!!!

[fightordie]

Hi Red Team This is GREAT. much simpler and lighter. I'm wondering how you top mount the battery and red-drive in this config. I've made a suggestion for a different handle.

http://www.fuzby.com/filetransfer/newcage2.jpg

Also where does the EVF attach? It would be good to have a one that rotates on only one axis and is more burly than the noga arm from NAB.

It's really cool to watch the camera evolve so publicly and so quickly.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

I love the new design but agree that a top half handle gives us the ability to have the handle and the battery mounted at the same time and would be a good use of unsued space the full handle will create. Most every pro 35 cam has a half handle option. Or maybe I'm not seeing it but have the ability to use any handle as a top handle would be even better.

[planet e]

tight design, dude!

this looks fantastic! i was a little bit concerned about the mobility and portability of RED but figured that would be a compromise that we'd make for image quality. i can see that there will absolutely be no compromises here! thanks, jim.

best of all, with this compact design, i can completely imagine reasonable portability even with the 300mm lens attached. the handle/cage design makes that seem reasonable, for a change. and 300mm lens and portability don't usually go together in the same sentence....

this is going to be an awesome sports and outdoors camera, in addition to everything else. i'm so psyched!

[Jason Sinclair]

now you are working it out ;)

ergonomics...

[Jason Sinclair]

http://supernovafilms/handle

[Adrian T.]

What are you trying to tell us, supernova?

[Joe Aurili]

It is a psychological test. I see my mother holding a red camera.


What are you trying to tell us, supernova?

[chuck colburn]

Sexy top mount hand grip.

[Jared VanLeuven]

Curvy baby...

[Adrian T.]

Reminds me of Koziol designs... :tongue:
http://welltemperedkitchen.com/koziol.html

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/wtk_1950_2179928

[Corrado Silveri]

http://www.trendir.com/archives/brighthandle-handle.jpg

Handle with tally...

[Adrian T.]

http://www.designboom.com/history/monobloc/02.jpg

So much for hijacking a thread... :wink:

[Paul Hazlett]

sorry lebowski but that chair does not have enough mounting points

[Ace]

http://www.nova68.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/welltemperedmini.jpg
http://www.totemdesign.com/DM/designers/images/225x300_newson_01.jpg

[Paul Hazlett]

HOLEY chair batman!!!

[Matthew Lochman]

could this thread get anymore rediculous?

I think I'll use this camera to make a(nother) version of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GJOVPjhXMY

[Michael Brennan]

Jim,
could you post a mockup with the red drive or battery UNDER the lens?
For doc use where no focus kit is used. Shoulder pad may need slide forward to maintain balance.
Its use would exclude larger bodied lenses.

Also, assuming flashcards can be stuffed into non square boxes, how about a curved hipflask shaped flashpak below the lens?



Mike Brennan

[Michael Brennan]

As much as we like the sunny camera operators side of the camera the connector side of the camera is the side that will have the cable makers busy for some time to come.

For some audio and monitor cables wil be connected as well as a viewfinder cable.

Assuming that we want cables to exit from the back of the camera and over the camera operators right shoulder it would be fun to play with positioning the connectors on the body so the cables running from the front the camera do not interfer with connectors nearer the back.

It may be that postioning them in a series of semi circles would be the best solution. Perhaps they need not be parallel either.

Adressing use of right angle connectors is important as their use saves 1/2 inch or so in overall width.


A lightweight cover to protect the connectors when in doc mode is essential, something that perhaps can slide.

Mike Brennan

[Ralph Oshiro]

You can't make a camera the size of the RED ONE and expect to have a place to hardmount everything under the sun to it.
I don't need to mount everything under the sun, just everything that I already mount to a typical ENG/EFP camera set-up (e.g., not sure where I'm going to mount a wireless receiver plate). Here's what I am mounting to my RED:

1. RED LCD on a RED arm, mounted directly to a 1/4-20 receiver on front-left-top of RED camera body. Actually, a more preferred method would be to mount the LCD to a slightly extended top left rail (since the rail mounting may use up that 1/4-20 receiver anyway), providing a much stronger attachment for this vulnerable appendage.
2. The newly designed RED handle (which I love!).
3. Two RED rail crossmembers, supporting two RED rail extended-length top rails (which extend off the back of the camera to "undersling-mount" the HDD+RED brick). May need to mount HDD+RED brick "upsidedown" for HDD cage's bracket to attach properly? Perhaps RED will make an "upsidedown" RED HDD cage for underslung mounting in the future (please?).
4. *Short shotgun mic in a ?????-brand shockmount/bracket (these are typically camera manufacturer-supplied parts, not available from third parties), mounted to RED's ?????
5. *Lectrosonics receiver, mounted on a BEC wireless receiver plate (or hopefully, a RED wireless receiver plate?), mounted to ????? on RED.
6. LED or Kamio, camera-mounted light.

*[I'm sure with the 1000s of RED rail combinations possible, I'll be able to figure something out. But currently, I don't know how I'm going to address mounting these two specific components.]

Any suggestions would be more than welcome!

P.S.

I am not getting the RED base plate/rail because:

A. Would prefer a universal quick-release system (e.g. Sachtler), so that I can use the same quick-release reciever on multiple camera supports, facilitating the near-instantaneous ability to change supports (including a shoulder pad).
B. I plan on only using lens-mounted matte box and filter solutions, since I'll only be shooting with 35mm Nikkors anyway.

[Michael Hastings]

Can I hijack this thread back to a serious design issue? - which is the lack of any reasonable way to hardmount things to the back of the camera.

I'd like to make one more serious push for some threaded hardpoints on the rear of the camera. One solution, if you are hesitant to add any more beef, is to simply take the existing counterbored holes for the screws that mount the backplate to the main body and, instead of fairing them down as they are in the current renders, just leave them solid and thread the counterbore with a larger 1/4-20 or 3/8-16 thread. (The counterbores look to be a half inch or more deep.) This would give anyone that wanted to solidly mount a battery plate, drive plate, wireless mic holder, LCD holder, etc., close to the back an easy way to do it. There seems to be a number of people that want it and I can't see how it is either difficult to do or any big downside for those that don't want to use them.

This is something that is easy to implement at this stage - much more difficult after it is already machined.
PS If for some liability reason you don't want to thread those counterbores just leave them (don't fair them away) so we can if we want to.




Rails/rods are good for several purposes, be it mbs, ff, grips - but not batteries - just look how far that thing stuck out when Matt Trembley or Brook used the camera in handheld mode.

I fear we´ll see some Red-related knockouts in the future...


Put the battery on your belt or in your cargo pants pocket for the lightest, most compact camera config...

Jim


You can't make a camera the size of the RED ONE and expect to have a place to hardmount everything under the sun to it.


I don't need to mount everything under the sun, just everything that I already mount to a typical ENG/EFP camera set-up





let me say upfront: I already said I will definitely be getting the rails as well, but I think there is some use to other configurations. I also feel the way kalone does: that the rails with battery and drive are a bit klugey for some situations. I've shot a lot of different things such as the confined areas of an airplane, or boat; underneath the basket at NBA games; in large crowds; ... etc. where it would be a major hassle to have all that hanging behind you. I don't have the perfect answer, I just know that there are a number of things that would be facilitated by having four threaded screw mount points - I'll call them nubs - on the back just like they have on both sides.

[Ralph Oshiro]

So, to summarize (if anyone's still listening), by three big rail-mounting issues/requests are . . .

A. An "upsidedown" RED HDD cage for underslung mounting to top-mounted rails.
B. Short shotgun mic shockmount bracket.
C. Bracket to attach a wireless receiver plate.

[Michael Brennan]

To summarize my previuos post

Connector protection and cable managment for the "telephone exchange" :) side of the camera


Mike Brennan