RedDrive

[Shawn Bannon]

anyway to record to 2 redrives at the same time? in otherwords, have the second drive be an exact duplicate of the first drive as we are shooting. Might be a nice feature for some of us under extreme pressure.

[Stuart English]

No we don't support that. If the issue is absolute reliablility of recording, then I'd suggest using a RED-RAM digital magazine.

[PaulClements]

Might it support redDrive and Flash dual recording Stuart? I can't recall ever reading a definitive answer to this.

[Stuart English]

No, you can have have both mounted, but the camera needs to know which one of those we are recording to. This statement may change over time, but at the moment we record to one device (only) at a time.

Again, the concern or issue is what specifically?

[Shawn Bannon]

I've had some issues with striped drives, and will be doing some remote location documentary work, shooting lots of footage, so would benefit from the larger hard-drives over the ram.

the drives seem cheap and small enough to mount 2 without any cumbersome weight. I would love the abilty to just buy drives like I buy film. and immediatly ship off the 2nd drive on a daily basis. so the second drive is purely insurance policy. and was just curious if this might be a possibility.

Its definitly not a necessity and can imagine the work arounds but thought it would be a nice useful feature.

[Shawn Nelson]

Can we please have the capability to record a short segment on CF and then hook up a RedDrive and transfer the card footage to the drive without use of a computer?

[tj williams]

HDSDI output could be a backup?

[Adrian T.]

No, you can have have both mounted, but the camera needs to know which one of those we are recording to. This statement may change over time, but at the moment we record to one device (only) at a time.

Again, the concern or issue is what specifically?

It would be great to have a dual recording possibility. It's simply for security in certain situations. Imagine a shot which cannot be repeated easily or without massive costs. It would be too bad if the take was ruined by a drive failure.

[Greg Voevodsky]

Can we please have the capability to record a short segment on CF and then hook up a RedDrive and transfer the card footage to the drive without use of a computer?

We have asked this question several times. Will this be possible?
If not can you please make it possible?

Many of us would love to shoot to Flash (nice and quiet), then turn on the drive and hit copy to drive as we set up for the next shot... or better yet, copy selected takes to drive and conserve space!!!!

[Stuart English]

Not in the initial release of software for sure.

[Joe Aurili]

As long as it's in by the third release i'm good :)


Not in the initial release of software for sure.

[Steve Freebairn]

As long as we're putting in our wishes for future software updates. I'd like it if we could have the CF module act as a pre record. So you automatically get X number of seconds before you push record. Where X can be user selected.

[Obin Olson]

we need this BAD (copy from CF to hard disk) really bad. that is the only easy workflow I see, booting a computer and dealing with tasks like making a copy of a disk are far to hard on a high pressure set.

[Joe Aurili]

That is a very good feature to have for ENG. It should even be able to be technically done with just the HD.


As long as we're putting in our wishes for future software updates. I'd like it if we could have the CF module act as a pre record. So you automatically get X number of seconds before you push record. Where X can be user selected.

[Stuart English]

Its not necessary to have this dual media configuration to have pre-record. You just need a non-linear media...

[Häakon]

booting a computer and dealing with tasks like making a copy of a disk are far to hard on a high pressure set.
That's the only choice you have on a P2-based shoot!

[Steve Freebairn]

Sorry Stuart that I wasn't clear. I was just hoping for pre record. I'm neutral on the dual recording drives, although I'd be happy if it got implemented (so I guess I'm not totally neutral. :usd:

[Finner]

Being able to record stuff previously shot on flash to the RED drive would be very useful and the system I would use on set. This feature would kick ass.

[Greg Voevodsky]

Being able to record stuff previously shot on flash to the RED drive would be very useful and the system I would use on set. This feature would kick ass.

I totally agree... and if there is time, this workflow would be great! If there is any time, please add this feature (can you do it in less than 5 weeks) ;-)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I personally don't know how much I'll actually use this feature (if available). With the HVX, there's the ability to dump P2 cards direct to a hard drive attached to the camera and I've only used it once in over a year... And even then, didn't need to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still all for this feature. If properly implemented, it will be very useful. I guess what I started to say above was that the HVX required taking the camera down and "re-booting" in host mode to dump the P2 card contents. If RED does it right and allows quick and direct copying to the RED DRIVE, then that could be useful to many. In most situations, I would say just record direct to the RED DRIVE and get it over with. But for shots with lots of camera motion, vehicle mounts, vibrations, etc... where the DRIVE makes you nervous or takes up too much space or adds too much weight, this could be a real great tool. Shoot to FLASH then dump to a drive.

OTOH, would we really use such a feature within the next year once 32GB or larger CF cards become inexpensive commodity items? I can say that if I can buy 32 or 64 GB CF cards that will work with RED for less than $200 each, I won't be messing with the RED DRIVE at all... Except for long-form event stuff on very rare occasions -- which will essentially require me to record to the RED DRIVE itself anyway.

[Rob Lohman]

we need this BAD (copy from CF to hard disk) really bad. that is the only easy workflow I see, booting a computer and dealing with tasks like making a copy of a disk are far to hard on a high pressure set.

I'm sort of surprised by the many requests for this feature. From what I understand you want to move on to the next shot as quickly as possible (especially on "a high pressure set"). Camera needs to turned off, moved to a different position / set etc.

So how do you see fitting the time to copy files into this? Remember that this will tie up the camera for however long it takes.

From what I understand that doesn't really seem to be a desirable hold up to have?

On the other hand laptops are probably already around the set and it makes total sense to have someone on set to manage the magazines and offloading those like you have with film. Added advantage is that at least a quick check can be done to ensure the shot is "in the can".

I'm just curious how everyone thinks such a feature will work on a "not enough time in a day while shooting" situation.

[Obin Olson]

um no. I use a p2 store...

[Obin Olson]

The reason is I think everyone trusts flash cards. they are used in all digital slr cams. we don't trust 2 moving disks...well I don't anyway. I have seen many a hard disk fail and I don't trust them. I would trust them for a simple copy/backup OFF the camera because they are not being bumped and jumped around...

[Ken Willinger]

So how do you see fitting the time to copy files into this? Remember that this will tie up the camera for however long it takes.


Many of my production situations are not always so time sensitive. Of course everyones situation is different. There are days that we never stop as well. But having this feature would be great as far as I'm concerned. There have been a lot of times where I have used an HVX and offloaded to a hard drive through the camera firewire...in situations where I did not have a laptop or places where it was difficult to have a laptop but having a small drive was a piece of cake. I think it is a feature many of us would use and hope that it is implemented.

[Finner]

I'm sort of surprised by the many requests for this feature. From what I understand you want to move on to the next shot as quickly as possible (especially on "a high pressure set"). Camera needs to turned off, moved to a different position / set etc.

This is true bnut often there is set up of lights and diffent things going on for each set uo so there is some time.


I'm just curious how everyone thinks such a feature will work on a "not enough time in a day while shooting" situation.

This is where I see the big advantage. You shoot everything to flash and when you finish that set up you and are"moving on" to the next set up you download the footage from flash to the hard drive. When the flash card gets full another one is reloaded and the flash card is then taken by the 2ndAc and down loaded through a lap top on to another hard drive. The big advantage to this is every days work is on both the RED drive and external hard drives so you have 2 copies of the days work. I see having 3 Red drives that rotate every 3days after the editor has confirmed that they have the footage and it is all good. Pretty much it is just a safety net. The ability to record to both the RED drive and a flash card would be another good option for this system. Either way it is always nice to have a back up to help protect yourself from stupid things that happen with long days.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Everything i shot for the last 15 months was to a single Firestore DTE. At the end of the day i backed up the footage to a computer and that was it.

I understand that some people feel they need the feature to copy from Flash drive to red drive but such kind of workflow might not be such a good idea.

Imagine if the flash drive is full and you need to back it up when production needs to run and time is pressuring all. Will you stop the shooting? This would be a nightmare!

Just buy 2-3 RED drives and swap them every 2 hours or something. After disconnecting the drive from the camera back it up to a laptop if you feel insecure and then circulate them again. I don't see any problem with that.

[TimothyD]

Everything i shot for the last 15 months was to a single Firestore DTE. At the end of the day i backed up the footage to a computer and that was it.

I understand that some people feel they need the feature to copy from Flash drive to red drive but such kind of workflow might not be such a good idea.

Imagine if the flash drive is full and you need to back it up when production needs to run and time is pressuring all. Will you stop the shooting? This would be a nightmare!

Just buy 2-3 RED drives and swap them every 2 hours or something. After disconnecting the drive from the camera back it up to a laptop if you feel insecure and then circulate them again. I don't see any problem with that.

Yeah, but the problem there is that it is like saying, well, I don't need to drive with a seatbelt because I've never been in an accident. Why do other people keep asking for a seatbelt to be included???

Tim

[Michael Ragen]

I think this feature would be good for remote location shooting. I'm not so worried about the camera being tied up for a few minutes. There are many places where I don't really want to have to get out my laptop to copy a flash card.

[TimothyD]

Ditto...

I for one run and gun most of the time, and will never have a laptop with me. I do however often have time to plan the next shot. So I would have time to copy data from the flash card to the Red Drive most of the time. To me this seems like a good way for people who can't afford a substantial amount of flash memory to benefit from it in terms of safety in situations with a lot of shock, etc...

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Yeah, but the problem there is that it is like saying, well, I don't need to drive with a seatbelt because I've never been in an accident. Why do other people keep asking for a seatbelt to be included???

I don't understand what is the similarity in the situation you describe. If you have some RED Drives and you divide a day's shot between them then you ass is covered if one of them happens to have an accident or something else fails. You don't loose the day's work.


I for one run and gun most of the time, and will never have a laptop with me. I do however often have time to plan the next shot. So I would have time to copy data from the flash card to the Red Drive most of the time.

How can you plan a shot with an inoperative camera?

[Greg Voevodsky]

How can you plan a shot with an inoperative camera?

Either by eye or with a viewfinder, stand where the next camera position will be, and rehearse the actors as the crew changes the lighting, background, props, etc. I don't need a steadycam to plan my next steadycam shot while I'm off loading my Ram to Hard Drive.

Also, the RAM should be quieter and lighter than a harddrive.

How loud is the hard drive by the way? I couldn't hear it with all the noise at NAB. Will a onboard mic on top of the camera hear the drive spinning in a silent room????

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Either by eye or with a viewfinder, stand where the next camera position will be, and rehearse the actors as the crew changes the lighting, background, props, etc.

Hmmm... My DP is constantly checking the camera for exposure levels, lighting, flares etc... Maybe you should give him some tips on how to do his job when the camera is copying files instead of doing its job.

Anyway, i will not insist on a workflow as each person feels comfortable with different arrangements.

[Finner]

Hmmm... My DP is constantly checking the camera for exposure levels, lighting, flares etc... Maybe you should give him some tips on how to do his job when the camera is copying files instead of doing its job.

BIG tip for your DP "LEARN HOW TO USE A LIGHT METER", and until he learns basic skills like using a light meter to speed up your day and do "exposure levels and lighting" like you mention he should probably not call himself a DP.

For your earlier point on what if your flash card is full and you have to move on well you just move on at that point and hopefully your AC has had the chance to transfer over most of what was shot on that flash card in between set up for different shots.

Your advice for shooting half your day on one drive and half on another because that way you would only lose half your day if there was a problem is not acceptable and highly unrecomended. I don't know what kind of projects you work on but things I do the look on the bright side we still have half the day excuse would never fly.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

BIG tip for your DP "LEARN HOW TO USE A LIGHT METER", and until he learns basic skills like using a light meter to speed up your day and do "exposure levels and lighting" like you mention he should probably not call himself a DP.

Light meters are not very useful in digital acquisition. They don't tell you if you just clipped your highlights or if you should use a different gamma curve. There is not even an official word from JVC as to what ASA my HD100 camera is!

Personally i would laugh if i saw him using his lightmeter during a HDV shot with an 720p monitor next to the camera.

Lately the only instrument we use is a color meter to check if all the lights are balanced well.

I think there was no reason for you to insult anybody.

[Finner]

Light meters are not very useful in digital acquisition. They don't tell you if you just clipped your highlights or if you should use a different gamma curve. There is not even an official word from JVC as to what ASA my HD100 camera is!

I have shot f900's, varicams, d20, viper and genesis each digital and each with a light meter that was very useful. Final stop you can set up with your camera just before you roll but to set lights and get within 1/3 of a stop an experienced DP with a light meter will do the job faster and more accurate for setting pools of light and painting with light.


I think there was no reason for you to insult anybody.

I did not mean this as an insult. It was meant in truth. If someone that claims to be a carpenter does not know how to use a hammer they should not call carpenter. Just as someone that claims to be a DP but not knowing how to use a light meter should not call themselves a DP. Your DP may know how to use a light meter very well and if he does you should probably not laugh at him but let him do his job properly by using it.

You say you would laugh if you saw a DP using a light meter on a digital shoot but I assure you DP's on large budget features all use light meters to set up scenes.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

You say you would laugh if you saw a DP using a light meter on a digital shoot but I assure you DP's on large budget features all use light meters to set up scenes.

That's because they don't understand what the histogram does. :biggrin:

[Adrian T.]

Very well said, Finner.

A lightmeter is one of the most important tools for DPs, be it film or digital. Many DPs can also judge a scene by eye (especially lighting ratios) but to set the key for a certain stop, the lightmeter is invaluable.

[TimothyD]

I don't understand what is the similarity in the situation you describe. If you have some RED Drives and you divide a day's shot between them then you ass is covered if one of them happens to have an accident or something else fails. You don't loose the day's work.

My ass is not covered in that situation, as I will only have one drive. I was hoping that as a budget challenged individual I could spend what I would be spending on a second drive to have the flash option and a couple of cards. That way I don't have to worry about my ass being covered if one of the hard drives fails during a overzealous bit of running and gunning.


How can you plan a shot with an inoperative camera?

With my eyes, brain and ears... I look, listen and think. Then I set up the shot, usually still thinking about how I want to do the shot as I set up the camera, sometimes not:)

[Finner]

Thanks Big L

I usually start by setting the scene up by eye first to what feels right. Then I pull out my light meter to set my ratios in my head and then I am set for that scene and can tweak lights as needed for different shots. Histograms and other tools are great but a light meter gives you the most precision to set drop off and fall away of light in areas. Its also quick and easy all you have to do is walk around the set and take a few readings.

[Miltos Pilalitos]

I was hoping that as a budget challenged individual I could spend what I would be spending on a second drive to have the flash option and a couple of cards.

With the price of a RED FLASH you could buy 5 RED DRIVES.


With my eyes, brain and ears... I look, listen and think. Then I set up the shot, usually still thinking about how I want to do the shot as I set up the camera, sometimes not:)

Your eyes your brain and your ears are not necessarily a match to what the lens is seeing.

[Adrian T.]

Your eyes your brain and your ears are not necessarily a match to what the lens is seeing.

It's all a matter of experience.
Just shoot, shoot, and shoot again. Some day you'll see that you don't need the camera any more to setup a shot. Good luck! :red_bandana:

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Some day you'll see that you don't need the camera any more to setup a shot. Good luck!

That's true. After 12 years of directing i set up my shots before i even go to the set but i still need the camera to check the details and the DP still needs it for the same reason.

[Rodrigo Lizana]

It looks like someone needs to get his camera soon or he´s going to start throwing punches around !. Relax a bit there´s always a friendly way to say things...

[Brook Willard]

Easy, guys.

[Ken Willinger]

How are you rating the ASA of the video cameras? My Sony D600 is rated at about 400 ASA but it's not an exact science with video. And how will we rate the ASA of the RED?

[Brook Willard]

How are you rating the ASA of the video cameras? My Sony D600 is rated at about 400 ASA but it's not an exact science with video. And how will we rate the ASA of the RED?

I believe it's falling somewhere in the EI 250 range.

[Ken Willinger]

I believe it's falling somewhere in the EI 250 range.
Wow, that is a lot slower than I thought it would be.

[Brook Willard]

That's just what I think. I could be wrong. Don't take that as an accurate statement, that's why I put the qualifier in there. A search may reveal an "official" answer, as mine are just based on a poor memory and lots of caffeine.

The speed will certainly be adjustable... that only seems logical. Another one that is just AFAIK.

[TimothyD]

With the price of a RED FLASH you could buy 5 RED DRIVES.

I think you are thinking of Red RAM dude. Maybe your eyes aren't so hot after all;) I was saying that the flash option ($500) and a few cards would be a nice alternative to a second drive if I could copy the stuff I shoot on the cards to the drive in the field. I suppose something like a P2 store would be just as useful though, any thoughts from the rest of you asking for this type of setup? How about a drive tray with a CF slot and nice fat RED copy button? That way you could slap a SATA drive in the tray, hit the button, and when full pop another in. What say you REDgineers?



Your eyes your brain and your ears are not necessarily a match to what the lens is seeing.

My eyes are often a lot more helpful than what the lens is seeing as a starting point. When I look through the viewfinder I am refining what I plan to shoot. Looking is like a sketch, and using the viewfinder is like framing the sketch...

Now, I think you should relax a bit... I for one never get worked up when people get pissy on the web.

[TimothyD]

And I'm ALWAYS a smartass, so don't take it personally. What fun is life if you take it seriously all the time...

[Miltos Pilalitos]

And I'm ALWAYS a smartass, so don't take it personally. What fun is life if you take it seriously all the time...

If you are referring to me let me reassure you that i didn't take anything personally. I don't know you personally, i don't know your work and you dont know me personaly and probably don't know my work either.

People requested the option to copy from flash or whatever to RED drive. Rob Lohman asked how would this be functional during a real production and since i work almost exclusively with a straight-to-disk workflow for a long time i happened to agree with him. I had zero problems with disks in the most difficult situations (shake,heat,cold,dust).

It seems that the expression of different opinions in this forum is met with aggression. There is always a smartass when you don't need one.

If you think that this feature is essential who am i to disagree? Sorry for filling this thread of yours with useless text.

[TimothyD]

Gotcha,

Well I certainly wasn't trying to be argumentative. And I was never being agressive either. Merely being a smartass, and trying to have a sense of humor. I'm sorry that you saw it as aggressive. Humor does not translate well via text sometimes.

At any rate, I don't think your opinion is useless, and I welcome a different opinion.

However, I also believe in expressing my own opinion, and that is all I ever intended to do. I can see why you would have faith in hard drives, since you have had great luck with them. And as far as hard drives go, I have no doubt that the digital magazine will be one of the safest and finest hard drive setups ever made.

I have to assume from your arguments against the addition of a copy from media (x) to media (z) option also have to do with they type of shooting you do. What works for one does not always work for others. I do almost nothing but move with my camera, and it is regularly in awkward situations where it not only shakes but gets bumped quite a bit, you name it.

After having many hard drives fail on me, both in laptops and in desktops, I feel confident in saying, that I really don't feel confident in hard drives. Even if they are well tested, shockmounted and covered with a great warranty. My footage doesn't come back just because I have a warranty. I love the fact that the drive would be replaced, but I don't love the problems lost footage causes.

Anyway, I only am voicing my opinion and I appreciate that you do the same, despite what you might think...

And yes, there's always a smartass around when you don't need one, but sometimes you can get a good laugh that way... Just depends on your own disposition.

[Chris Kenny]

Hmmm... My DP is constantly checking the camera for exposure levels, lighting, flares etc... Maybe you should give him some tips on how to do his job when the camera is copying files instead of doing its job.

I can't think of any technical reason why, if the camera had a file copying feature, it couldn't operate normally while copying. (Except that it wouldn't be able to record, of course.)

[TimothyD]

Good point Chris...

I really think it would be almost as good to have a P2 store type device like I mentioned above. Ideally I think something like a WeibeTech SATAdock with a slot for a CF card and a copy button would be a great thing for Red to offer.

http://www.wiebetech.com/products/satadock.php

Being able to copy from the CF to Red Drive on camera would still be a great way to do it though. I'd love to see both options.

Peace,

Tim

[Miltos Pilalitos]

I can't think of any technical reason why, if the camera had a file copying feature, it couldn't operate normally while copying. (Except that it wouldn't be able to record, of course.)

That's right. The only problem would be the recording.

I suspect though that copying from one medium to another would require some short of data controller hardware which might not be in the initial camera design but maybe it is something easily solvable.

I wonder if it might also be possible to install Doom 3D in the camera so we could impress the crew or other owners of lesser cameras than RED. Well, even Pac-Man would do... :)

[Greg Voevodsky]

A first time actress on set once asked me "Why is the DP making that other actress sniff his white ball all the time?"

I quickly looked up in relief to see my DP taking a light meter reading for our next close up.

I won't mention the other time a 21 year old LA woman producer asked me (as editor) how they use to cut film before non linear editing machines? ;-)

[dalemccready]

Here's one:

"That slate thingy...do you have to clap it?"

She was the first AD, she followed it up with...

"does that bubble thingy have to be in the middle?"

[Rob Lohman]

Copying can actually be quite a tricky feature to implement. You have to worry about drive space, what if you have name collisions (incorrectly setup multi-camera shoot copying to the same drive, for example) etc. etc. Especially if you want to have the camera continue working (except for record option). Also keep in mind that copying an 8 GB card will *probably* (I don't have such a card here, so have not tested it) take *at least* 5 minutes to copy (assuming a max of 30 MB/s sustained read/write speed).

5 minutes is a long time when the director wants to do another take and the card is full and you need to wait for it to copy to a drive (that hopefully has enough empty space).

We're not saying such a feature might never get into the camera, but as Stuart has indicated it will definitely not be there in the beginning.

If shooting flash is that important to you (remember, we shot to our RED-DRIVE from a helicopter) I suggest you get multiple flash cards (they're not that expensive) or have someone offload the card while you plug in a fresh one.

[Ken Willinger]

5 minutes is a long time when the director wants to do another take and the card is full and you need to wait for it to copy to a drive (that hopefully has enough empty space).



This is true. But we all are not working on controlled sets all the time. Many of us are doc makers and will be wanting to be able to go as slimline as possible, depending on the situation we are in. In some of those situations, just carrying a spare hard drive to offload to would be great and allow redundancy, without having to haul the laptop. Being able to use the camera as host to offload to the drive would be a great option for the future.

[TimothyD]

VERY good points Getken,

And Rob, what about this suggestion of mine.


Ideally I think something like a WeibeTech SATAdock with a slot for a CF card and a copy button would be a great thing for Red to offer.

This seems like it would be fairly simple, aside from the concerns you mention in regard to duplicate files and such. Caveat Emptor??? I'd be willing to take that risk...

Tim

[Paul Leeming]

Actually, along the lines of your post TimothyD, there are lots of options these days for digital photo storage devices using a CF card slot alongside a normal HDD. Some even have onboard error checking to make sure your data was safely transferred before you erase the CF card to shoot some more stills. While the CF cards we use with Red will probably be among the biggest out there (8GB, 16GB etc) HDD size should have no problem scaling up either. Perhaps this type of solution would be a great intermediate method of quickly and safely downloading your flash captured RedCode between takes? And if nothing specific exist already, surely it won't take much for Red or another third party manufacturer to create one? Hell, you could even have a small LCD on it like some of the pricier photo models have these days to confirm your takes were ok!

[Ceazar77]

At 20MB/sec, this looks like the fastest one on the market now http://www.hypershop.com (http://www.hypershop.com/shop/). What would be really nice is if someone would make a card reader that would take advantage of the 800MB/sec transfer rates of the new cards (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0704/07041601sxsmemorycardformat.asp) that are comming out. :tongue:

[Rob Lohman]

That's 800 megaBITS/s, not BYTES! So at the most probably 80 MB/s. Not 800. We wish!

Paul has a good thought. There should already be equipment that can copy a flash card to a hard drive.

[TimothyD]

Yeah,

But it needs to have the same kick ass industrial design that the camera has or how am I supposed to impress the women?

;)

A Red branded version would undoubtedly be faster, cooler and more reliable than any competition...

[Mike the beginner]

Great topics here guys. If we could get the CF cards up to 64GB at a good speed and costs brought right down, the need to transfer to hard drive becomes less likely perhaps. So later on it might not be worth it for red to do the extra software updating if it was going to take them more than say 12 months to complete.

I just think that it would be brilliant to have the dual flash/red drive combo. But that is something different again.

Mike the beginner

[Christian]

Stuart, could the RED DRIVE be reformatted as a RAID 1 for 160 mirrored GBs instead of RAID 0 for 320 GBs?


I think this would be a great feature. People being concerned about data redundancy could then switch their drives to hold only half of the footage it usually does, but having that extra security.

One problem could be that a single drives speed isn't enough for Redcode 4k Raw Data...?

how's about that?

[Stuart English]

If you used RAID 1, you would need to use 7200 rpm drives in order to allow the drive to record all the way to its inner tracks. And with 7200rpm drives, you are currently limited to 100GB per drive, hence a RED-DRIVE in RAID 1 would be 100GB, not the current 320GB.

It is a future option that can be exploited, but as there is absolutely no data that suggests that there is a problem with RAID 0 operation, its probably best to put this idea on the shelf for now. Also if you are in a mission critical environment, where you must have 100% certainlty that the information is captured - despite any environmental conditions, we'd suggest RED-RAM.

[Damien Molineaux]

If you used RAID 1, you would need to use 7200 rpm drives in order to allow the drive to record all the way to its inner tracks. And with 7200rpm drives, you are currently limited to 100GB per drive, hence a RED-DRIVE in RAID 1 would be 100GB, not the current 320GB.

It is a future option that can be exploited, but as there is absolutely no data that suggests that there is a problem with RAID 0 operation, its probably best to put this idea on the shelf for now. Also if you are in a mission critical environment, where you must have 100% certainlty that the information is captured - despite any environmental conditions, we'd suggest RED-RAM.

What about the new Hitachi travelstar, it's 7200 rpms and 200 GB
http://www.hitachigst.com/portal/site/en/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.368c8bfe833dee8056fb11f0aac4f0a0/?javax.portlet.tpst=74ef8e8d695bcd876ccf7be1cf4362 b4_ws_MX&javax.portlet.prp_74ef8e8d695bcd876ccf7be1cf4362b4 _viewID=content&javax.portlet.prp_74ef8e8d695bcd876ccf7be1cf4362b4 _docName=20070510_ships_speediest.html&javax.portlet.prp_74ef8e8d695bcd876ccf7be1cf4362b4 _folderPath=%2Fhgst%2Faboutus%2Fpress%2Finternal_n ews%2F&beanID=804390503&viewID=content&javax.portlet.begCacheTok=token&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=token

It was announced on May 10th as ready to ship in quantities, pretty sweet solution in a Red-Drive in RAID 1 !

Cheers,
Damien

[Stuart English]

Its good to see these products coming to market. The nice thing is the storge architecture we have chosen can suport these options, but as I said at this specific point in time we are using RAID 0 on two 160GB drives for RED-DRIVE.

[donatello b]

IMO at some point there could be too many gigs .. right now it seems persons are concerned about 320 gigs and drive failure & how to off load/backup quickly ..
seems to me if there were 500gigs x2 = 1 terrayte available would we really use it ???
my mind has enough caution with 320 gigs - certainly would never load on 3 hrs of a project with actors ... i would do 3 hr of interviews in one day - but never over a few days without off loading ...
i'd choose 3 320 gig units over 1 terrabyte unit ....

[Christian]

@donatello:
thats exactly it! It's the same with data storage in your normal days computer work. Imagine having a 500GB hdd containing all your photos ever taken. It's nice, it's small, it maybe fast, but IF it crashes you're f****d...

@Rob: do you have any data how long a Red Raid will last? The average lifetime of harddrives usually is something from 3 to 5 years, isn't it?

[Jim Arthurs]

IMO at some point there could be too many gigs .. right now it seems persons are concerned about 320 gigs and drive failure & how to off load/backup quickly ..

Wise words indeed... more storage in a single unit is not always better for both reasons; transfer speed and data safety...

Near the end of last month I had an HVX-200 shoot, recording to HDRack. By the end of the day we had only 43 gigs (not 320... just 43 gigs) and it was PAINFULLY slow to get the client copy made... they had brought a firewire 400 drive and I was copying over from my little 2 drive SATA array on the Macbook Pro... grrr... and there was a massive snow storm going on and a race to get down the interstate before it was closed, and the studio was taking random power hits that afternoon... all told, we spent 45 painfully tense minutes or so waiting for it to copy and for me to make a second clone to my firewire 800 drive... now magnify that out to the RED capacity, and add in the "all your eggs in one basket" factor...

[Steve Sherrick]

Although certainly not the same data rates, and perhaps not even worth comparing, but my Sound Devices 744T can record to hard drive and flash simultaneously, and also has a copy feature that works great. Nice when you have to hand someone files at the end of the day, but don't want to give them your recorder.

Anyway, some thoughts to ponder:

1. Any medium is susceptible to damage during a shoot. Film, videotape, etc. Hard drives will be no different. They will work most of the time, especially if they are as rugged as this camera seems to be. Having said that, I'm all for any kind of backup/redundant kind of system that could be implemented. Can never have enough protection.

2. As with any new system, rigorous, real world tests will need to be conducted to see how the various mediums hold up in extreme conditions. Red-raids will be brought into extreme cold, extereme bumpy/shaky, and extremely hot/moist situations. As reports come back from these kind of shoots, we'll see how they fair, and if they do well, confidence will grow in this area. Case in point. I knew some folks who were very opposed to shooting on Firestores (or any drive for that matter) because they thought that the medium would never be as reliable as shooting tape. Now, after having some real world experience with them, they are pretty much sold on the technology and love the benefits.

3. Workflow efficiency is key to success of any new format. Anything that Red can do to make the workflow from aquisition to post more streamlined will help them sell more cameras. If enough requests come in for a feature (such as copying flash to drives) then they will look for ways to get it implemented. Again, real world experience will also help dictate this. As people get the cameras into actual shooting scenarios, these kinds of things will become a lot clearer as to what's critical and what's not.

I look at Sound Devices as a company very similar to Red. They are a small company who wanted to give people great quality for a reasonable amount of money. In the case of the 700 series recorders, they built very solid machines, and keep improving them through firmware updates which are usually the result of feedback from those in the trenches with the recorders. It's a very tight community dedicated to making everything better. I see Red looking to achieve the same goals.

Steve

[Craig Schober]

Wise words indeed... more storage in a single unit is not always better for both reasons; transfer speed and data safety...

Near the end of last month I had an HVX-200 shoot, recording to HDRack. By the end of the day we had only 43 gigs (not 320... just 43 gigs) and it was PAINFULLY slow to get the client copy made... they had brought a firewire 400 drive and I was copying over from my little 2 drive SATA array on the Macbook Pro... grrr... and there was a massive snow storm going on and a race to get down the interstate before it was closed, and the studio was taking random power hits that afternoon... all told, we spent 45 painfully tense minutes or so waiting for it to copy and for me to make a second clone to my firewire 800 drive... now magnify that out to the RED capacity, and add in the "all your eggs in one basket" factor...

but you can't blame the larger drive for your laziness (not offloading data when you should) or bad judgement (bad estimate of copying time). it's not like your footage/data expands to fill the drive after you've finished shooting. what you put in, you'll have to take back out if you still want it. in fact, higher capacity drives can only benefit us because they'll allow alot more data before they start to slow and possibly drop frames. you might be able to argue that large 1000' 35mm mags impeed camera movement but it doesn't apply to digital media. so i think it's not a technology issue but rather a simple workflow issue.

not to sound too greedy but i hope red ups the red drive capacity before it ships. western digital just released 250gb 2.5" drives that retail for only $200. as usual, the drive market continually offers more space for less money and we should take advantage of that.

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=314

[jamesedwelland]

not to sound too greedy but i hope red ups the red drive capacity before it ships. western digital just released 250gb 2.5" drives that retail for only $200. as usual, the drive market continually offers more space for less money and we should take advantage of that.

http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.asp?driveid=314

Reliability not capacity is what I would prefer. 3 hours is plenty.

james w

[Craig Schober]

Reliability not capacity is what I would prefer. 3 hours is plenty.

james w

everyone prefers reliability but when you're talking about red drive, more capacity doesn't mean less reliability. if you're talking about reliability then you have to factor in affordability too. red could rig a giant raid or tape deck solution that beats flash media's reliability but they don't because it's cost prohibitive. we all cut corners no matter how precious we think our footage is. personally, i prefer a few red drives. they hold way more, cost way less and are reliable enough compared to flash media. if a drive dies, i guess i'll replace it with a spare red drive and do a take 2. it's not like i'm shooting bigfoot an alien landings.