EPIC X FF 1080P: 1-60P better than Canon 5D MKII

[Robert Berger]

EPIC X FF 1080P: 1-60P better than Canon 5D MKII.

If i correctly understood that the EPIC X FF 1080 means DOF of S35mm and 1 -60p. DOF we all like so mutch as a DoP.
Is this correct?? NOT a part of the cmos will be used but a extract isn't?
Let me know!

Thanks Robert

[PaulClements]

I presume it's a 1/4 scaled version of the QuadHD the camera would record. So the camera would be doing the downscaling on the fly to 1080p from 5k(ish). So yes you'd have the DOF of S35mm and quality wise I'd be shocked if it wasn't better than the Canon 5D MKII.

However FF1080 on the FF35 or 645 epic might be different again since FF infers full frame and those two cameras have larger sensors you might have still camera sized 35mm which is bigger than S35 (With the FF35) and with 645 you'd have medium format sized footage being down converted in camera to 1080p.

I presume Red have included it to open up the post pipeline for shooters who know for fact they are only ever going to need a 1080P finish. It may also allow them to record with less compression on the footage perhaps.

Paul

[Robert Berger]

I presume it's a 1/4 scaled version of the QuadHD the camera would record. So the camera would be doing the downscaling on the fly to 1080p from 5k(ish). So yes you'd have the DOF of S35mm and quality wise I'd be shocked if it wasn't better than the Canon 5D MKII.

However FF1080 on the FF35 or 645 epic might be different again since FF infers full frame and those two cameras have larger sensors you might have still camera sized 35mm which is bigger than S35 (With the FF35) and with 645 you'd have medium format sized footage being down converted in camera to 1080p.

I presume Red have included it to open up the post pipeline for shooters who know for fact they are only ever going to need a 1080P finish. It may also allow them to record with less compression on the footage perhaps.

Paul

Hi Paul,

That will explain the limit to 60P in hte EPIC X

Thanks
Robert

[Roberto B]

comparing $2700 w/ $33,000.00 up up?.. :) :)

[Mr. Paul White]

Apples to oranges.

[JonathanF]

I think if I see one more Canon 5D MkII post I'm going to vomit.

Redcode 250, not compressed to crap h.264 mpeg movies.. get it now?

I won't even go into the exposure controls on the darn thing.

[nick allsop]

of course it will be better

[Jannard]

If it isn't exponentially better... we don't deserve to be in business. Did you really ask that question?

100fps of REDCODE RAW (vs. 30fps only of some crappy codec), every possible format option you can imagine, modular lens mounts, real cinema modules, 1/20th the skew... I have to think you were joking. Right?

Jim

[michael zaletel]

The 5D2 is starting to annoy me as well. Not because of the posts but because I've been trying to shoot with it this last week and aside from the fact that it won't do 24p, compact flash cards fill up a lot faster than Red Drives and the battery doesn't last long, the total lack of aperture, iso and shutter speed control make it more of a toy than a tool. I actually love my Red One more AFTER having owned the 5D2 for a bit and can only imagine how much more I'll love my EPIC on that fine day.

-michael zaletel
(shooter)

[Tom Lowe]

compact flash cards fill up a lot faster than Red Drives and the battery doesn't last long
-michael zaletel
(shooter)

The 5D2 can literally shooting for DAYS on a couple of $90 32GB Transcend CF cards and a pocket full of tiny batteries. With the grip you can shoot for like 6 hours straight on two walnut-sized batteries. There are many reasons to diss the 5D2, but portability, startup time, power and recording media are not points the camera is weak on, in my opinion. In fact, I'm hoping Epic and Scarlet are similarly portable and convenient, to the extent that they can be, given the fact they are packing much, much more horsepower.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

if your considering the 5d as your primary camera.. you probably shouldn't be in the same consideration category as an epic

[Roberto B]

The 5D2 can literally shooting for DAYS on a couple of $90 32GB Transcend CF cards and a pocket full of tiny batteries. With the grip you can shoot for like 6 hours straight on two walnut-sized batteries. There are many reasons to diss the 5D2, but portability, startup time, power and recording media are not points the camera is weak on, in my opinion. In fact, I'm hoping Epic and Scarlet are similarly portable and convenient, to the extent that they can be, given the fact they are are packing much, much more horsepower.fair scope.. the more you post on what you know best the more we appreciate it..

edit
JJ.. you should take tom's viewpoint in consideration.. he's right now.

[Ariana]

edit
JJ.. you should take tom's viewpoint in consideration.. he's right now.

I would hope that JJ doesn't take into consideration badly sampled video, higher skew, and a tremendously overcompressed image all for the sake of cheap media and tiny batteries. That maybe fine for a DSLR with video tacked on as an afterthought, but PLEASE FOR GODSAKES do not go in that direction for Scarlet. We don't want you to go down to the loest common denominator, go all the way up!

[Roberto B]

read tom's post

[Roberto B]

btw.. the recent recordable media adds-on are less than FUD

[Ariana]

read tom's post

It's not an apples to apples comparison. $90 cards don't mean anything if I'm trying to get 5k motion at a low compression ratio. I don't want scarlet dumbed down just so I can shoot overcompressed video to cheap cards. It's more important to me personally that scarlet achieves the high quality it's aiming for rather than the low quality the 5d2 hits.

[Roberto B]

ok.. forget the $90 32gb cards.. even if you'll have more powerful media at that price in a short period of time.. yes.. no name media.. who cares?.. the hightech shouldn't work out as a church.

[Jannard]

I guess I forgot a few well-placed smiley faces thingies on my post. :-)

The 5DII does record to cheap media and has tiny batteries. And there are cameras that record motion and stills with cheaper media and tiny(er) batteries (and a worse image). The question isn't who has the tiny batteries, it is "where does professional to your level of satisfaction begin?". If the 5DII, an HVX, or 35mm film is what satisfies your requirement... there you go. But a compressed codec with lots of skew and no modularity to the system isn't OK for me. Good news is that everyone gets to decide for themselves.

[Joseph Ward]

Comparing Epics with anything below its price point is not worth comparing. Maybe the Scarlets would be better to compare, since it falls within prosumer ranges? Then again, nothing comes close as far as value. Only what products are out, I guess?:Yawn:

[Tom Lowe]

BTW, I was very clear in the fact that I was in NO WAY comparing the video that comes out of a 5D2 to any Red camera, especially not the DSMCs! I was simply responding to michael zaletel's claim that the batteries and CF cards run out too fast on the 5D2... which is the complete opposite of reality. Even if you completely trash the video capabilities and quality, you cannot deny the convenience of the camera in terms of recording media, startup time, battery life, plus the "stealth" factor of being able to shoot quickly and inconspicuously.

I am confident, based on all that Jim and Jarred have been saying, that DSMC will be moving in the direction of more portability, faster startup and setup times, longer battery life, etc. It's just the natural progression of technology.

The 5D2 has major, major problems, not the least of which is terrible moire-pattern artifacting, and some gruesome partial demosaicing artifacts caused by high-frequency patterns in water, brick walls, etc.

[michael zaletel]

The 5D2 can literally shooting for DAYS on a couple of $90 32GB Transcend CF cards and a pocket full of tiny batteries.

Are you talking about shooting stills (time lapse) or shooting 1080p video Tom. I am talking about the camera's usability for shooting a film or etc.? You cannot shoot 1080p for DAYS on a couple 32GB CF cards and a pocket full of tiny batteries. 3 minutes is 1GB!

And I think you'll agree that focus is a pain with the 5D2 and exposure control is a joke. Sure there are some tricks for setting aperture but only within a certain range.

I agree that the storage problem can be solved fairly easily with a bunch of 32GB CF cards, and the power problem can be solved with a bunch of batteries (which aren't quite so cheap) but at the end of the day, it's really the 30p restriction (no variable speed, no slow-motion, no 24p) and the ignorant lack of exposure control that bugs me. If you have found other tricks I don't know about for controlling shutter speed, aperture and iso in combination and locking all three down, please let me know. I only know of the (hand-in-front-of-the-lens) trick to force a different aperture setting but then that only goes so far and ISO and shutter speed fall where they may. How can you force a 180 degree shutter (1/60) for example at f2.8 30fps?

BTW, I do generally like the quality of the 1080p video and maybe I just haven't figured out how to control the camera as well as you have in video mode but I do want to learn.

You should know that I respect you a great deal Tom, your work is amazing so I hate to have this debate with you but hey, that's what this forum is for.

-michael zaletel
(shooter)

[Tom Lowe]

Are you talking about shooting stills (time lapse) or shooting 1080p video Tom. I am talking about the camera's usability for shooting a film or etc.? You cannot shoot 1080p for DAYS on a couple 32GB CF cards and a pocket full of tiny batteries. 3 minutes is 1GB!

And I think you'll agree that focus is a pain with the 5D2 and exposure control is a joke. Sure there are some tricks for setting aperture but only within a certain range.

-michael zaletel
(shooter)

Well, a 32GB Transcend card ($90) can probably shoot 1080p video for about 5 or 6 hours! Of course, you are limited to 12min takes because of the FAT32 system, but then you just hit record again. I have a bunch of those 32GB cards, as well as a ton of 16GB and 8GB cards. So yeah, I can plant myself on a hilltop and literally shoot for like 48 hours straight, just with a pocketful of tiny batteries and CF cards.

Focus is really tough for moving objects and a moving camera, but if you are shooting landscapes, you can use the x10 focus assist and get RAZOR sharp footage every time. I have suggested adding such a feature to DSMC. In terms of iris, you can put a nikon lens on and control the iris manually.

But yes you are correct, the 5D2 has many, many, many drawbacks. I just didn't agree that batteries and shooting media (CF) were problems with the 5D2. Quite the opposite.

[michael zaletel]

Well, a 32GB Transcend card ($90) can probably shoot 1080p video for about 5 or 6 hours! Of course, you are limited to 12min takes because of the FAT32 system, but then you just hit record again. I have a bunch of those 32GB cards, as well as a ton of 16GB and 8GB cards. So yeah, I can plant myself on a hilltop and literally shoot for like 48 hours straight, just with a pocketful of tiny batteries and CF cards.

Focus is really tough for moving objects and a moving camera, but if you are shooting landscapes, you can use the x10 focus assist and get RAZOR sharp footage every time. I have suggested adding such a feature to DSMC. In terms of iris, you can put a nikon lens on and control the iris manually.

But yes you are correct, the 5D2 has many, many, many drawbacks. I just didn't agree that batteries and shooting media (CF) were problems with the 5D2. Quite the opposite.

Hi Tom:

1. Am I doing something wrong? The .mov files from my 5D2 are 300MB per minute which is 100 minutes per 32GB card.

2. Can you elaborate more on x10 focus assist?

3. Any suggestions on focusing with 5D2 when shooting drama or when camera is moving other than rails and follow focus and focus ring adaptors?

3. What adapter would you recommend for nikon (iris adjustable) lenses?

4. If I did use a Nikon lens, how could I control the shutter speed to force 180 degree (or other) shutter speed and force ISO setting and then use ND filters as appropriate?

I definitely should have been more specific on what I meant about batteries and shooting media. I was talking more in terms of say a situation where you need to shoot for 2 hours straight or cover for 5 hours and can never predict when you'll need to be recording or not. The end of a battery or the end of a 32GB card could really come at the wrong time and you could miss something critical. I just prefer a solution like the Red Drive. Is there a solution for the 5D2 that would let you swap batteries while recording? Like an external battery pack that holds two batteries and displays when one is dying so you can replace that one without powering down?

The 12 minute max record time doesn't seem like a big deal at first but when you are shooting continuous something unfolding (like animals in nature or sports), that could really cause you to miss the moment. Any solution for that?

-michael zaletel
(shooter)

[Tom Lowe]

x10 focus assist is just that little magnifier glass button near the shutter button. It punches in 5x, then 10x when you hit it twice. You can move the joystick around to the area of the shot you want to focus on. It's a real lifesaver! RAZOR sharp focus is possible.

in terms of focusing with drama and moving subjects, it's really, really tough. maybe a larger, external LCD could help. plus you have the problem of breathing with a lot of these still lenses.

in terms of adapters, you want an "AF confirm" Nikon>EOS 5D2 adapter. they are around 40 bucks on ebay. i can't seem to find the exact brand on ebay, but i think all of them work. the company i bought from is out of Hong Kong, with a very green-colored website.

in terms of control shutter angle and speed, i think those are just workarounds you can find out about on cinema5D's forum, probably. unless you are really, really shooting continuously, the 32GB cards should allow you many hours of shooting. if you're shooting wildlife, just delete needless scenes as you go if you run out of space, i guess.

also, having the battery grip helps, because it doubles your battery life. i'm not sure if you can hot-swap though. i guess i could do an experiment!

[Charles Angus]

I think the OP was stating that FF1080 1-60fps is better than the 5dII. His question was about FF1080p meaning that the footage is scaled to 1080p, not a centre crop like R1 2k.

I would also like a little more info on that, especially as regards the larger sensor brains.

[ericyoung]

It's probably possible to DIY a dummy battery with voltage regulator to external large power pack for stupidly long shooting times. The FAT32 limit may be more difficult to work around...

[Lee Saxon]

Comparing Epics with anything below its price point is not worth comparing. Maybe the Scarlets would be better to compare, since it falls within prosumer ranges? Then again, nothing comes close as far as value. Only what products are out, I guess?:Yawn:

I really don't think price has anything to do with the comparison. I'm pretty confident REDCODE from a $2500 Scarlet would effortlessly kick the ass of XDCAM from a $50,000 Sony, for example.

[Steve Sanacore]

I really don't think price has anything to do with the comparison. I'm pretty confident REDCODE from a $2500 Scarlet would effortlessly kick the ass of XDCAM from a $50,000 Sony, for example.

Yes yes, please Jim, bring on the Scarlet! I would buy one tomorrow for a shoot later this week. My R1 is still in my plans -(just waiting for some clients to move on projects), but Scarlet is a no-brainer anytime.

BTW: i have been using the 5Dmk2 since it came out and it's great as long as you don't care about exposure settings, ISO, noise, frame rate, and don't have to change the focus. Other than that some of the video is excellent but I couldn't use it on an important job.

[Joseph Ward]

I really don't think price has anything to do with the comparison. I'm pretty confident REDCODE from a $2500 Scarlet would effortlessly kick the ass of XDCAM from a $50,000 Sony, for example.

Agreed!