"RED the 35mm Slayer" + Audio budget issues

[Tom Lowe]

Once RED hits the streets (or the mountains and deserts in my case), I think the image will be so awesome (especially displayed 5 to 10 years from now on 4K home plasmas, widescreen computer LCDs, etc), that sound will become an issue. If you shot outdoors with natural light, ala Malick, you could conceivably shoot the most the beautiful motion picture ever made on the RED for maybe a half million bucks. I'm telling you, it could be done. Nothing would really be holding you back, other than maybe a lack of crane/helo shots that are too expensive. But creativity and patience can overcome that.

You are acquiring images at 4K with near-film quality, plus you are not worried about film stock, so you can rock that camera until your crew and actors drop. You could shoot the equivelent of several million feet of film, matching a ratio only Hollywood's most elite directors enjoy right now. This is the power of full-sensor 4K HD, my friends.

So, having said all of that about image, the problem now becomes sound. On a crummy DV camera shoot being watched on a DVD player at home, the audience might cut you some slack on sound design, but if someone is watching your beautifully shot feature on a 4K Super-HD plasma in their home theater seven years from now, they will expect matching audio at nearly Skywalker Sound quality standards. For an indie shoot on, say, a SAG ultra-low $200k budget, the production team is going to have to invest an inordinately large amount of money in sound design, ADR, etc, IMO.

Does this seem like the case to you guys? On a $200K ultra-low shoot, or a half-mil indie, how much do you think, respectively, you would have to pump into post sound, production sound, and ADR to match the audio to the image?

[Ace]

"Shooting the most beautiful motion picture ever made", entails having some serious talent behind the camera. You would expect the same standards carried out across the entire production team. Its not really a matter of equipment, but one of talent.

[garageman]

If you shot outdoors with natural light, ala Malick, you could conceivably shoot the most the beautiful motion picture ever made on the RED for maybe a half million bucks. I'm telling you, it could be done. Nothing would really be holding you back, other than maybe a lack of crane/helo shots that are too expensive. But creativity and patience can overcome that.

Considering that Malick and crew only shot days of heaven during twilight hour mornng and evening, that's a window of 2 hours shooting a day, means you're getting less footage for the cost of your production. This factor alone would mean shooting days of heaven in this way today would be unfeasibly expensive when you consider you'd have paying a top class crew for a whole day when you only shoot for 2 hours, accruing less footage than during a normal full day shoot and less pages of the script making for a longer than average shoot.

It's nothing to do with the technology -film is the cheapest part of big budget films- it's the time and talent you're paying for.

[Tom Lowe]

"Shooting the most beautiful motion picture ever made", entails having some serious talent behind the camera. You would expect the same standards carried out across the entire production team. Its not really a matter of equipment, but one of talent.

This is true. But I am saying there are advantages to shooting on RED, because you could shoot millions of feet, which barely any directors can pull off with 35mm.

There are plenty of talented DPs, ACs, etc, willing to work for a low but decent wage on something artistic they believe in. And let me ask you: what is the competition? DAYS OF HEAVEN? APOCALYPSE NOW? BARAKA? RAN? THE NEW WORLD? Those films are beautiful, but could be beaten by a determined, focused, and very talented RED crew shooting natural light.

Anyways, this is my little personal obsession, so forgive me if it seems like hyperbole.

[Tom Lowe]

Considering that Malick and crew only shot days of heaven during twilight hour mornng and evening, that's a window of 2 hours shooting a day, means you're getting less footage for the cost of your production. This factor alone would mean shooting days of heaven in this way today would be unfeasibly expensive when you consider you'd have paying a top class crew for a whole day when you only shoot for 2 hours.

It's nothing to do with the technology -film is the cheapest part of big budget films- it's the time and talent you're paying for.

True, but keep in mind that Malick is known to shoot millions of feet of film per show. And let's face it, a tiny indie production, paying SAG ultra low rates, could afford to shoot only at magic hours if things were planned out correctly. Maybe a 40-day shoot. Very few 35mm features could even dream of this. On a RED feature, your crew is working cheap, and the actors are on ultra-low scale, and the post is dirt cheap, because you can do it yourself, like you would with an HVX.

[Ace]

I completely agree with you. What I was saying was that, its a question of talent and not budget necessarily. So to answer your question about audio budget issues:


There are plenty of talented DPs, ACs, etc, Sound Designers willing to work for a low but decent wage on something artistic they believe in.

[Tom Lowe]

I completely agree with you. What I was saying was that, its a question of talent and not budget necessarily. So to answer your question about audio budget issues:

Do they have access to good libraries and everything?

[Ace]

Do they have access to good libraries and everything?

I don't think sound libraries are an issue, they are fairly obtainable.

[Tom Lowe]

I don't think sound libraries are an issue, they are fairly obtainable.

So what would you recommend a $200K ultra-low 4K shoot set aside to get one of these talented and up-and-coming sound designers for an entire feature? How much for him + good ADR, if you are assuming you will have to replace about 30 pages of dialog?

I also want to emphasize an earlier point about image: do you think there is any way in hell that a $200K 35mm ultra-low could shoot anything close to a million feet of film? With stock, lab and daily costs?

[garageman]

True, but keep in mind that Malick is known to shoot millions of feet of film per show.


How could he have shot millions of feet on days of heaven? He only shot for 2 hours a day.

[Steve Sherrick]

In regards to sound, this process is evolving as well. You have the DEVAs and Sound Devices machines recording hi-res audio out in the field and now Zaxcom has introduced these handy wireless units that can actually record right to the transmitter, saving possible ADR, etc. It's all evolving. But every film is different and has its own distinct budget requirements. You and I might take our Red Camera and Deva out and shoot a great movie for 50K, and another film may use the same kind of recording system, but yet spend 50 million to shoot their film. It all comes down to where you're putting your money. Is it A-list talent, expensive set design, sound design, etc?

We're living in a fun time right now because the tools have become affordable to a wider pool of artists. It then becomes what you do with them.

Steve

[Ben Feuer]

You should expect to budget as much for production-quality sound in digital as for camera. The division in 35mm is greater just because of the added technical expense of film. But these days, the fancy work is done in post-production, and you need great workers on both sides of the coin to do that.
Downside is, sound guys aren't known for giving freebies to artistes, unlike, say, DPs. The reason? Usually the respect and creative authority they're given on set is near zero. None of the artistic concerns that should be taken up are even addressed with most sound guys. Have you ever seen a director "check the audio" after a shot? I rest my case.
If you want great sound, respect it as the equal of visual. Don't expect to attract great sound guys with promises of Days of Heaven...instead, offer them Nashville, The Man Who Fell to Earth - a movie where sound really matters. If you're shooting for the lofty title of "best ever", you can't afford to limit yourself to only one department.

[Tom Lowe]

How could he have shot millions of feet on days of heaven? He only shot for 2 hours a day.

sorry, you are right. he shot millions of feet on The Thin Red Line and The New World. The Thin Red Line's first cut was over 6 hours long and is rumored to have shot more 35mm film than any major feature in history.

[Steve Sherrick]

So what would you recommend a $200K ultra-low 4K shoot set aside to get one of these talented and up-and-coming sound designers for an entire feature? How much for him + good ADR, if you are assuming you will have to replace about 30 pages of dialog?

I also want to emphasize an earlier point about image: do you think there is any way in hell that a $200K 35mm ultra-low could shoot anything close to a million feet of film? With stock, lab and daily costs?

For a feature with foley, ADR, sound design, dialogue editing, etc. you're looking at a budget of approximately 40-50K. On a feature with more elaborate sound design, more like 100-200K. Those numbers can certainly fluctuate higher or lower, but they're pretty good averages to go by.

Steve

[Tom Lowe]

You should expect to budget as much for production-quality sound in digital as for camera. The division in 35mm is greater just because of the added technical expense of film. But these days, the fancy work is done in post-production, and you need great workers on both sides of the coin to do that.
Downside is, sound guys aren't known for giving freebies to artistes, unlike, say, DPs. The reason? Usually the respect and creative authority they're given on set is near zero. None of the artistic concerns that should be taken up are even addressed with most sound guys. Have you ever seen a director "check the audio" after a shot? I rest my case.

i know. i have worked as a boom mic guy on many small features while earning my meager filmmaking knowledge and I know all about the issues production sound guys face. this is why i think most of a feature like the one i have in mind should be sound designed and ADR'd almost as default. My film has little dialog but conditions are tough in the mountains and remote deserts. i can get awesome sound on set, but still it will need a lot of help in post. i feel like i should be devoting maybe something like $20-30K to sound?

[Steve Sherrick]

That's not a bad number. If you don't have a ton of dialogue editing to do, this might save you some money. Let me ask you a few questions about the sound design for your project.

1. Stereo or surround?
2. How much of the film will contain music?
3. Will you do a full foley pass?
4. Is your talent easily accessible to do the ADR or will you have to do it via ISDN at various sound studios?
5. Will you seek international distribution and if so will you be looking for an M&E upfront or will you wait until distribution is in place.
6. Will you have a budget in place for additional sound recording, i.e. effects gathering?

Steve

[Greg Voevodsky]

Tom, all you need to do is buy a Holophone H4 -

http://holophone.com/products_h4.html

like I plan to do and you will have captured perfect sound like your perfect image. ;-)

[Thom Steinhoff]

Here is a link to buy from B and H: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&Q=&is=REG&O=productlist&sku=466415 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&Q=&is=REG&O=productlist&sku=466415)

Pretty cool for ambient and wild sound, but I don't see how it could replace good booms. Am I missing something?

[luis bustamante]

Another option could be soundfield's mikes, anyone had any experience with them?

For what i've read they are highly respected in the pro audio world. They have a new budget surround mike that will come out this year that's seems like a good match for the RED and the starving filmmaker:

"The new SPS200 A-Format microphone brings the advantages of SoundField Technology to a wider audience and provides the perfect ‘front end’ to capture both stereo and 5.1 surround. It is ideally suited to those working in the field on laptop based recording systems or in the studio on fully fledged Digital Audio Workstations. The SPS200 A-Format microphone uses the same established SoundField multi-capsule technology as the high-end models in the SoundField range. This relatively lightweight microphone (approximately 220grams) is powered by standard 48v phantom power and incorporates four low noise, studio grade condenser capsules. Ashort break-out cable outputs the SoundField A-Format at mic level on four balanced XLRs, ensuring compatibility with all equipment.

"The SPS200 A-Format microphone is the first SoundField microphone that does not require an accompanying control unit. All the processing – such as the Ato B-Format conversion, stereo and surround sound decoding/manipulation – takes place in software which comes packaged as standard with the SPS200 A-Format microphone. There are two plug-ins: “SoundField Conversion Lounge” takes care of the A to B-Format conversion and the “SoundField Surround Zone” looks after all the aspects associated with the stereo and surround sound decoding and manipulation. The software is currently available for Pro-Tools HD and all platforms supporting VST-Multichannel such as Nuendo, Cubase, Soundscape, etc. on both PC and MAC platforms."

Link: http://www.soundfield.com/downloads/sps200.pdf

cheers

[Beatrice Palicka]

Tom, sound is 50% of your picture. There is no excuse for bad audio just because you're making a low budget movie. Some filmmakers have the mentality "we'll fix it in post" and ignore production audio. You could still have good audio for your budget; however licensing fees could be expensive.

These are my tips for good audio:

1. Scout your locations very carefully and listen for any sound interference. Ask the neighbors. Are the gardeners coming on the day of your shoot? Are you near an aiport or busy street? Avoid noisy locations as much as possible. I spent as much time on sound as I did on camera during pre-production and was able to do my films without any ADR. I hate doing ADR. Most actors are bad at it and the acustics are always wrong.

2. Hire experienced boom operators and audio mixers. Have back-up plans in case they cannot come on certain days. Be prepared to do production audio yourself if you're not operating the camera. My mixer had a family emergency and I ended up mixing for some days.

3. Don't buy or rent cheap mics. For dialogue recording I like to use a Sennheiser 416. It records clear sound and mixes well with all the other tracks.

4. Respect your sound crew and give them as much time as they need. Have audio checks and do more takes if necessary. Always record the room tone.

5. Good sound design to me is like writing an orchestral score. Each track represent a specific instrument. During pre-production and more so after picture lock, I sit down with the script and devide it into five columns. Each column represents different audio tracks: dialogue, music, FX, folley, and backgrounds. I write down all the sounds that I hear in each scene. Silence is also important. Eventually, I end up with 30 or so audio tracks. Some SFX are taken from libraries, some are recorded on locations, and others in sound studios or soundproof rooms.

6. Editing sound with today's digital technology is easier than it was with cutting magnetic film. Digidesign's Pro Tools has made a big difference. I also like Apple's Soundtrack and Logic.

7. Music is important to any film. Hire a good film composer and spot the music with him. There are two kinds of composers: those that go beyond your expectations and those that write beautifull music, but it does not really match your movie. Do not put any songs into your movie unless you can pay for them.

8. Sound mixing or pre-mixing could be done on Mac, but if you plan to show your movie on the big screen, the final mix has to be done in a sound studio. Some studios are very helpful to indie filmmakers and let them use their rooms if they are not booked. If you have any music background and you understand how to balance individual tracks, you can work with a less experienced mixer and still achieve a great soundtrack. Be prepared to pay a license fee for Dolby stereo mix.

Hope this helps.

Bea

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

I,ve worked with those rigs in various surroundings (even recording Voodoo rituals in West Africa for a doc).
They are perfect for capturing the "whole" of a scene.
But they are severely limited if you want to catch dialog in a noisy ambience - because the ambience will be as loud as your dialog = instand ADR session.

Jochen

[Billy Summers]

That's what I'm sayin
When are you ever TRYING to get the ambiance as loud as the dialog?
I guess for roomtone...
and doc stuff, sometimes

[luis bustamante]

I,ve worked with those rigs in various surroundings (even recording Voodoo rituals in West Africa for a doc).
They are perfect for capturing the "whole" of a scene.
But they are severely limited if you want to catch dialog in a noisy ambience - because the ambience will be as loud as your dialog = instand ADR session.

Jochen

Thanks or the info. That's exactly what I suspected. If this new mike they're offering (Soundfield SPS200) is a good deal I am thinking of using it fixed to the camera (using all 4 audio inputs) to have the sound perspective aligned to the POV of the camera and when needed (and to avoid ADR which I also hate) use a traditional sound setup with an external audio recorder & shotgun mike ADDITIONAL to the surround mike on the camera, that way in post we can mix the individual dialogues from the shotgun with the surround files coming from the soundfield mike, and add foley, SFX and everything else on top of that. Of course, once we have the gear we'll be testing this setup thoroughly before going into actual shooting but what do you think? Does it sounds like a good idea?

Two more quick questions Jochen: What's been your experience with the B format? How good does the soundfield mike design captures the complete soundscape?

cheers

[Sanjin Jukic]

For all of you interested in every segment or aspect of audio recording, sound editing, ADR and sound mixing in a film production have a look at the web movies from the Production Diary for King Kong by Peter Jackson (there you can see and learn about other parts of the film production too, all for free). By the way King Kong won 2 Oscars for audio 2005: 1.Best Achievement in Sound and 2.Best Achievement in Sound Editing >> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0360717/awards.

http://www.kongisking.net/kong2005/proddiary/

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

I,ve never used b-format.

For using the mike on top of the camera: It is a big decision in dubbing to spin the whole soundfield. It could be quite distracting. Even if you pan the camera it might be better to keep the audio perspective locked.

Check out how many times dialog stays in the center speaker even if the people speaking move around.

Jochen

[ericyoung]

Tom, all you need to do is buy a Holophone H4 -

http://holophone.com/products_h4.html

like I plan to do and you will have captured perfect sound like your perfect image. ;-)

How would you record 6 channels of sound on a typical camcorder? And if you used the downmixed stereo output, any unwanted off sound on one or more of the channels would be permanently embedded in the mix.

See this as only being practical in controlled studio conditions or rather unusual real locations where you don't have undesirable audio which you want to avoid picking up. Isn't that why we have directional mics rather than using omnis for everything after all?

Still it's a potentially useful tool in certain circumstances.

[luis bustamante]

I,ve never used b-format.

For using the mike on top of the camera: It is a big decision in dubbing to spin the whole soundfield. It could be quite distracting. Even if you pan the camera it might be better to keep the audio perspective locked.

Check out how many times dialog stays in the center speaker even if the people speaking move around.

Jochen
thanks for your input, jochen, it's greatly appreciated! All that you say is what I've also been thinking of, alas, when we get our toys we'll test all possibles setups.

cheers