Spinning boards, not yarn.

[Jannard]

The primary delay at this point is our need to spin two new boards to reduce noise... (plus a couple of loser suppliers that we need to replace).

I'm not sure how many other companies would share this kind of info, but here we are.

We have an image quality in mind that we need to achieve (and have achieved with our prototypes) before we will begin final production. We are almost there, but I am demanding that we spin these boards again with a new design to get us all the way. It is painful to delay. It kills me. But it would kill me more to release a product that is not 100% the best we can do. And 92% is not 100%.

Just so you know.

Jim

[Ralph Oshiro]

I'm not sure how many other companies would share this kind of info, but here we are.
Well, I have been repeatedly accused of saying fanboy-like things here like, "Jim, you da man!" by members on other forums, but Jim, "You ARE the man!"

[Sam Druckerman]

The primary delay at this point is our need to spin two new boards to reduce noise... (plus a couple of loser suppliers that we need to replace).

I'm not sure how many other companies would share this kind of info, but here we are.

We have an image quality in mind that we need to achieve (and have achieved with our prototypes) before we will begin final production. We are almost there, but I am demanding that we spin these boards again with a new design to get us all the way. It is painful to delay. It kills me. But it would kill me more to release a product that is not 100% the best we can do. And 92% is not 100%.

Just so you know.

Jim

I have to say..... reducing noise is worth the wait.

Your commitment to excelence is why we're all here.

Thanks for the update.

[P Andersson]

"knit picking"

[Brook Willard]

The amount of information that you're willing to share on here... well... thanks.

[Jannard]

We have come a long way since we were a "scam"...

Jim

[Ralph Oshiro]

We have come a long way since we were a "scam"...
LMFAO!!!

[Shawn Nelson]

Thank you Jim, I appreciate your fortitude to not release Red before it's ready! Too many other companies release Beta stuff. Oh, and thanks for the news too, it's nice to get an echo back.

[Keith Nealy]

Thanks for the update, Jim.

Do what you gotta do.

It's a tough gig... but that's why you get paid the BIG bucks.

Just for perspective...

I paid for an upgrade to a certain editing system that was announced before NAB 2006... and NAB 2007 came and went... and still no system.

Stuff happens.

Good luck... and keep those renderings coming..

Keith

[Miltos Pilalitos]

I wonder what kind of improvements are included in this 8% :)

[IAN SUN]

This news and the new cage design bears out my prior statement that the delay only benefits us as future RED ONE owners. A stronger, unassailable RED ONE can only improve our bottom line in the long run.

Ralph is right, Jim you ARE da Man.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Spin away, Jim! I really like the sound of 100% and I'm content to wait for it. Too bad about the loser suppliers... Gotta take the good with the bad I guess. The updated rail/cage system is looking very good, BTW.

[S. Um]

I think just about every company that builds electronics has to deal with noise problems, so that's not out of the ordinary.

But thanks for your dedication to quality and for being upfront with us. I wish more companies were like this.

[Poi Boy]

So the noise issue was not in the prototype but was in a board once mass produced ? That sucks...hard to get good help these days ! I am so looking forward to getting my camera, thanks Red guys and gals.
Aloha
-A

[Brook Willard]

So the noise issue was not in the prototype but was in a board once mass produced ? That sucks...hard to get good help these days ! I am so looking forward to getting my camera, thanks Red guys and gals.
Aloha
-A

I think the noise he's referring to is what was discussed in this (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2027&highlight=noise) thread.

[Tonaci Tran]

As always, thanks for keeping us in the loop. The early believers are the ones most affected at this point..and we all came early because we believe in your project. As agonizing as the wait is, I doubt that anyone would have a problem with your goal to produce the highest quality camera possible even at the expense of a minor delay.

[Ralph Oshiro]

NOISE = BAD (i.e. video's worst enemy)
Do what ya gotta do RED team. WhatEVER you gotta do!

[Teague Kennedy]

Jim, do what you gotta do. Perfectionist? Wonderful.

[Joe Aurili]

Cool, I hate noise, and so does compression.

[Greg Voevodsky]

So does that mean the hard drives are real quiet too?

(I know - you're talking picture noise, but noise is noise) :-)

And speaking of noise -

Is it possible to record to Flash and then push a button to copy a take to the hard drive, so the camera would be quiet while shooting?

We've asked this question/request on several threads and have not heard (sorry for the pun) a thing. If not, will or can it be done?

[Alex Boothby]

Stuart's response...?

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2417&page=2

[Keith Alan Morris]

I think the noise he's referring to is what was discussed in this (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2027&highlight=noise) thread.

I dont know if thats the case actually. Sounds like theyre just trying to get it to prototype quality, not improvement quality, as in your posted thread... maybe i'm wrong and missed something along the way...

[Brook Willard]

[shrug] who knows?

[Jannard]

Don't analyze it too much... we are awake.

Jim

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

analyze, what does he really mean by that?

(I am all for 100% too btw)

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Honesty is a kind of style and it is rare out there on the battlefield of business.

[C.H.Haskell]

100%!....sounds about right. is 4K noise even finer? Just trying to imagine what this looks like. Noise is noise I suppose...bed time.

Thanks Jim.

[Mark Mannschreck]

I dont know if thats the case actually. Sounds like theyre just trying to get it to prototype quality, not improvement quality, as in your posted thread... maybe i'm wrong and missed something along the way... I think you're right by the way it was worded.
We have an image quality in mind that we need to achieve (and have achieved with our prototypes) before we will begin final production.Jim I was hoping for more latitude and less noise than the prototypes, but it seems we may be delayed to get it to prototype quality.

[david farland]

The primary delay at this point is our need to spin two new boards to reduce noise...

Jim
Jim,

What is spin?

Dave

[Keith Alan Morris]

i am glad jims a perfectionist too. i like the top down-buck-stops-here- approach of this company.

not exactly the same analogy, but blair witch made 200 believers from early test screenings and of those 200 fans, one person stayed on hold for hours on a radio station talk show, then said, "wait til you see this!!" etc on the air. it blew up like crazy afterward--i remember just in my corner of the world, there was a line around the block for 2 weeks at the angelica in nyc. thats viral marketing at its finest.

imagine how such access to Reds process will spread the word on it!

[Ace]

Jim IS a perfectionist. And thankfully, its a disease many of us will catch in the process, I know I have.






Edit: Thankyou Martin for correcting my spelling and teaching me the error of my ways. I now know not to spell disease with an e.

[Rick Darge]

And this is exactly why Red will bury Sony & Panasonic..

&&* >



The primary delay at this point is our need to spin two new boards to reduce noise... (plus a couple of loser suppliers that we need to replace).

I'm not sure how many other companies would share this kind of info, but here we are.

We have an image quality in mind that we need to achieve (and have achieved with our prototypes) before we will begin final production. We are almost there, but I am demanding that we spin these boards again with a new design to get us all the way. It is painful to delay. It kills me. But it would kill me more to release a product that is not 100% the best we can do. And 92% is not 100%.

Just so you know.

Jim

[dalemccready]

Good to hear the delays are to get the absolute best out of the camera. If they were to release it anything short just imagine the backlash and competitor griping, even if the camera is still waay better than anything they have. The sort of quality control that Mr Jannard is descibing is their best defence.

Thanks Red for being upfront about the noise issue. Looking forward to not seeing what you're talking about.

[Steven M. Bailey]

(speaking of noise)I read somewhere that the internal cooling fans would shut off when recording starts to eliminate vibration and noise. How long can you record before heat becomes an issue? Is there some form of passive heat sink.

If you ballested the fan with a Gyro-scopic image stabilization device it could stay running during operation.

I'm curious. I used to be an IBM service tech and Ive seen alot of melted processors.

As you pursue perfection on this project, I'm sure you have it handled, and re-handled as I recently noticed.:biggrin: I am just curious.
Steven:nerd:

[Paul Leeming]

Jim,

What is spin?

DaveYou mean you thought the Red Spider was just for show?! :biggrin: It's busy in the Red bowels, spinning new components from the unobtainium dispensers buried in its thorax!! Hehehe....

But in case your question was serious, spin in the electronics world means creating a new master layout design revision, be it as an optical lithograph or any other type of electronic circuit design method. Most retail electronics boards are usually the second or third spin of the original design as they get built and small problems or defects are discovered. As an example my P965 motherboard has the C2 spin of the chipset which corrected a couple of small flaws (one of which I had seen first hand on the C1 spin of the chipset in an earlier computer). It's pretty normal and nothing to get concerned about, since Red have basically told us this is the reason WHY they are respinning before it even ships. HTH

[nathanail nathanailoglou]

And this is exactly why Red will bury Sony & Panasonic..

&&* >

+1


even if this is what will be done ,

we just hope that RED will make them :bleh: change course and focus on RED's targets....

[david farland]

Thanks for that Paul,
No I wasn't worried, I'd just never heard of the term in relation to pcb's before. Although pulling out my trivial pursuit brain, the term sounds familiar when old blokes talked of resin/bakelite 'pound for pound' AWA radio days stuff. In a previous life I use to design prototype pcb's for a research org, only 4 layers thou and would spend 3 weeks checking layout before sending off for a prototype (not production) run. Inductance noise, faraday(ish) shielding on 16bit circuitry, no 90 degree corners on high speed signals, heat sensitive layout, it was witchcraft not science. Great fun.

Cheers,

[Alexander Nikishin]

And this is exactly why Red will bury Sony & Panasonic..

RED is awake.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/4733/redcoltsj1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Steven M. Bailey]

nice gun!!:gun:
Kimber 45 acp with the black and white punisher grips and red carved down the side. sweet. I'll take two

They should give them out with the first 1000 cam's. That way we can flash them at the sony booth next year at nab:whistling:

"The RED Eliminator"

[Sanjin Jukic]

It's not a delay at all,
it's about a serious development process with a commitment to produce
the highest quality results of the shipping product:

The RED ONE™

"a high performance digital cine camera with the quality of 35mm film and convenience of pure digital."

[Mike Zinner]

We have an image quality in mind that we need to achieve (and have achieved with our prototypes) before we will begin final production.

Yeah, you got me worried there for a sec. Once we saw that quality of the prototypes (Milkgirls, ...) it would be hard to settle for anything less.


We are almost there, but I am demanding that we spin these boards again with a new design to get us all the way. It is painful to delay. It kills me. But it would kill me more to release a product that is not 100% the best we can do. And 92% is not 100%.

Look guys. I have been waiting for this cam all my life. So why would it matter if i have to wait a little more? On the other hand - seeing it rushed out and only deliver 92% would kill me.

Given the improvements we now see on the new designs I would rather say it is a good thing that you are forced to delay the production and get things right. At least for us customers.

You are already doing the impossible. Please don't try to do it faster than possible, hehe.

[Sanjin Jukic]

More comments here from the other "nette Wiener" reservation holders are appreciated.

[Andreas Fernbrant]

I dont know if thats the case actually. Sounds like theyre just trying to get it to prototype quality, not improvement quality, as in your posted thread... maybe i'm wrong and missed something along the way...

I also stopped to think about this. Would be nice to know what's up.
And has Jim given any time indication at all? Is this delay a month, six months or a year?

[Alexander Nikishin]

nice gun!!:gun:
Kimber 45 acp with the black and white punisher grips and red carved down the side. sweet. I'll take two

They should give them out with the first 1000 cam's. That way we can flash them at the sony booth next year at nab:whistling:

"The RED Eliminator"

Colt Government 1911 A1 acutally.

Definitely my favorite hand gun. :gun:

[Clayton Harper]

100% support

[Obin Olson]

make it happen. I can wait for the extra boards. as long as you keep us in the loop I can wait forever.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I also stopped to think about this. Would be nice to know what's up.
And has Jim given any time indication at all? Is this delay a month, six months or a year?

Jim has made is clear that he belives a locked release schedule (One he feels pretty good about) will be made available on or before June 15th. At that point, assuming there are no other issues, we'll know where we stand in the release of things.

Jay

[Chris Gearhart]

make it happen. I can wait for the extra boards. as long as you keep us in the loop I can wait forever.

My thought exactly. For me, even a project lost is nothing in the long run (and I may lose a big one with a delay). But a Red at 100% will bring in far more and better projects over time, and it seems it will be a Red at 110% after it's all said and done.

Thanks Jim. I'm behind you all the way.

-Chris

[Justin Kirchhoff]

Thanks Jim.

[Ronnie Silos]

Plenty of things to prepare for before Red One arrives. Use this time to get creative! Stop refreshing this screen, every second, that is. Sorry guys, I'm just talking to myself trying to pump myself to get creative.

Ronnie

[Curran Giddens]

yeah, no worries here. I don't have any immediate projects to shoot so a longer wait is actually better for me since I'll have more time to get creative. What does worry me a bit is getting my RED and then not having any projects to use it with....

As long as I get charged for it on my credit card before the end of the year (for tax reasons). Even then, I'm sure RED wouldn't mind charging me early. :)

[Steve Gibby]

Anybody who knows Jim Jannard and is familiar with the way he has done business through the years will know that he is a stickler for quality control and doing things the right way. His open communication about the RED One development process doesn't surprise me one bit, and neither does his insistance on getting RED's products done correctly. That's been my approach to my own products and hopefully yours too. If something is worth doing, it's worth doing right.

IMO we are in good hands guys. When the products ship there may still be small bugs in the first ones to ship, which is normal with electronics, but to me it's real comforting that RED is being thorough in quality control in the fabrication process. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I've known Jim for a long time, he has a reputation for quality control, I respect his decision on this, and I support it 100%.

[Martin Drew]

Jim IS a perfectionist. And thankfully, its a diesease many of us will catch in the process, I know I have.

Ace. I think your spelling needs some perfectionisation too :)

M

[nathanail nathanailoglou]

If anyone has a thought about delaying and explaining to future customers the reason for this delay......

I just remind how many years we've passed in the darkness waiting for ARRI's D20 release.....

What a different way of facing customers........

Thanks Jannard

[Corrado Silveri]

No problems here. We can wait...

http://www.nemu-nemu.com/comics/0056.gif

[Paul Hazlett]

Ace. I think your spelling needs some perfectionisation too :)

M

I am sorry to hear about your condition Ace....

can I have your res number since you wont need it?

[TimothyD]

"Please, correct my written english.
I'm still learning, and I need your help.
Thanks in advance."

You spell better than many of the native english speakers on here, so I wouldn't worry too much Elcurado, but I'll help out when I can.

First lesson for many seems to be that "lose" is not spelled "loose".

For those that like to criticize though, I would imagine that most english speakers would have a much more difficult time spelling or speaking another language than non-english speakers.

Cheers,

Tim

[Adrian T.]

First lesson for many seems to be that "lose" is not spelled "loose".

It depends on what you mean. :devil:

[Ace]

Ace. I think your spelling needs some perfectionisation too :)

M

Hey, dont knock 4am no food in the fridge and nothing is open spelling...

[TimothyD]

I figured that was, bleary-eyed staring at reduser.net while enebriated spelling:)

[Ace]

Bit of bleary-eyed staring at reduser.net while enebriated spelling too. But I thought that was a given for most here.

[Eugene]

http://www.cwtv.com/thecw/bg-gallery-308/images/c/0001/cw-beautyandthegeek-episode308-gl-06_004073-96da1b-500x280.jpg

Hire more geeks, and get rid of the hotties on the RED team. The geeks are being distracted from doing their work. They should have designed those board right the first time.

[TimothyD]

Bit of bleary-eyed staring at reduser.net while enebriated spelling too. But I thought that was a given for most here.

Indeed:wink: I need more enebriation and less bleary-eye myself lately... Speaking of which, I have to be at work in less than 8 hours:help:

[Jannard]

Most of what we are going through happens to everyone in electronics (I'm told), you just never hear about it. We had such good luck for so long that it came as a bit of a surprise to hit a bump. But we have a good suspension system...

Jim

[Poi Boy]

I think for the most part You make your luck and if you don't hit the burms too hard your suspension will get you to the finish line. Looking forward to my Reds.
Aloha
-A

[Don Woods]

But we have a good suspension system...

Jim

Hell yeah and I would love to put a RED made suspension system under my truck that would be the shit. JIM offroad parts could be a new challenge...:biggrin:

[Emanuel A.]

(...) I'm not sure how many other companies would share this kind of info, but here we are.

We have an image quality in mind that we need to achieve (and have achieved with our prototypes) before we will begin final production. We are almost there, but I am demanding that we spin these boards again with a new design to get us all the way. It is painful to delay. It kills me. But it would kill me more to release a product that is not 100% the best we can do. And 92% is not 100%.

Just so you know.

JimThat's why we are RED ONEs...

[Levan Bakhia]

OK, it is of course good to here update, and it is good to have a better camera but I am waiting for my first RED camera (178, 501, 502, 503) to start a feature, and I as a producer am trying to persuade DP (and DP in this case is a very well know) to film with RED, but not knowing when the camera is going to be with me it is hard to do that. And especially after the fact that shippings were announced, I finally had a DP agree with me but only after testing it, and now I am delayed. Well, ok, for the sake of quality it is ok to delay but It would be better to know approximatelly when it will be ready.

[Zach Hilton]

Patience my good fellow. They have mentioned many a time that 1) things are always subject to change, and 2) just because there's a delay right now, doesn't necessarily mean that the entire productions schedule is hosed. Jim mentioned that we should have a contingency plan...just in case. So, do that, and you'll sleep better at night.

[Kevin Halverson]

Most of what we are going through happens to everyone in electronics (I'm told), you just never hear about it. We had such good luck for so long that it came as a bit of a surprise to hit a bump. But we have a good suspension system...

Jim

Having been involved in high end electronics manufacturing for the last 30 years, I can assure you that it is more common than not. The greater the number of suppliers you have (either raw materials or outside processes), the greater the probability that one (or more) will screw up your best laid plans.

Its just the nature of how this industry works.

[Jannard]

Sometimes it feels like we are trying to fit the Space Shuttle inside a football...

Jim

[Hrvoje Simic]

You'll manage it. You have some fine tailors.

[Joe Aurili]

So much for the internal CD player option...


Sometimes it feels like we are trying to fit the Space Shuttle inside a football...

Jim

[Billy Summers]

If it was easy, I'd have released the Billycam years ago!

[feb31films]

Sometimes it feels like we are trying to fit the Space Shuttle inside a football...

Jim

Well, I guess inspiration can come from anywhere. Keep doing the "impossible" Jim!

[Keith Nealy]

Is that why the Japanese have a lead over us in electronics?
They're generally smaller than the rest of us?

Remember when David Copperfield, the illusionist, made the space shuttle dissapear in front of a live TV audience...?

Just do that!

OK... I'll stop now.

All kidding aside... I know it's hard... but you guys are the best and you're creating what everybody said couldn't be done.

[Billy Summers]

Yeah, you guys make every other company your B*$%H! I mean "jealous"...

[Corrado Silveri]

I think that all this thread discussions are synthetized by this simple words from Jim:


92% is not 100%.
Jim

I can't stop to thanks Jim for his strong willingness to give us 100%.
Even when he give us some "delay" announcements.

[Don Woods]

Well, I guess inspiration can come from anywhere. Keep doing the "impossible" Jim!

That by is the most inspired thing I have seen on here in a long time

[Ralph Oshiro]

Sometimes it feels like we are trying to fit the Space Shuttle inside a football...

Jim
So, I guess the integrated iPhone dock is out, then?

[Ralph Oshiro]

I think that all this thread discussions are synthetized by this simple words from Jim:


And 92% is not 100%.

I can't stop to thanks Jim for his strong willingness to give us 100%.
Even when he give us some "delay" announcements.

92% ≠ 100%. True.