final cut vs. quicktime gamma problems

[Michael Ragen]

So I know Final Cut attempts to simulate a broadcast monitor of something, but I have have horrible results exporting videos from final cut and then viewing them in quicktime. I cc with colorista on a 23 inch Cinema display. No matter what codec I use the gamma seems to be heavily shifted and washed out. Is there way I can kill this problem or is it a problem with quicktime?

Do all of you that use FCP have your Mac set to 1.8 gamma or 2.2? Someone told me that it is a bad idea to use 2.2 gamma when using FCP. I'm just worried about handing over demo reels to people and them seeing an innaccurate washed out image. I feel like I could be doing something wrong but I've tried everything I can think of. Should I be rendering in rgb instead of yuv?

The picture below is quicktime on the right and final cut on the left of the exact same video file.

Thanks in advance. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4540/fcpvsqtsk0.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fcpvsqtsk0.jpg)

[dalemccready]

Generally if you have your monitor calibrated in some manner and work on a tv job in AE with a project working space set to PAL or NTSC, it'll look lighter and more washed out in quicktime where it's not putting the gamma LUT on for you. I think FCP may be the same.

So to end up looking right on a TV your quicktimes should be a bit light and flat. But if you're just going to the web you may want to do a tweak to get your contrast back. I use After Effects for this.

Otherwise I leave my monitor at it's mac gamma 1.8

[Michael Ragen]

Thanks for the info. I just loaded the same file into AE and it looked correct.
Any recommended setting for tweaking the video in AE to achieve the same look in quicktime? It seems like it would be hard to judge because the image doesn't look flat and washed out in AE.

[Graeme Nattress]

I think FCP expects that the final display gamma of the video is 2.2, but that the mac is set to 1.8, and it reacts accordingly when it asks the codec for the picture.

This makes the FCP image match a video monitor image more closely. However, it does mean that that video will look different in quicktime than it does in FCP.

Graeme

[Michael Ragen]

Upper left is AE, Upper Right is FCP, Lower is QT. It looks to my eye like FCP and AE are using the same LUT, which I guess could just be a 2.2 gamma adjustment. Since a pc's native gamma is 2.2 does that mean the washed out quicktime on mac will look correct when displayed on a pc in quicktime?
I find all this very frustrating if you are trying to output a video that looks good on mac and pc.
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3563/fcpvsaevsqtgw1.th.jpg (http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fcpvsaevsqtgw1.jpg)

[dalemccready]

In AE you can set a effects/utility/color profile convertor and switch you input from what ever it is to an SD output profile. This will embed the gamma in to your file. Or you can do a levels or gamma tweak by eye to have control over it.

Interesting that it looked right in AE off the bat. It must have interpreted it with a colour profile in the file. Normally you have to point this out to the program.

Check out Stu Maschwitz blog for good info on colour management in AE
http://prolost.blogspot.com

[Kip Hewitt]

DeadMike,

This one has been killing me all day. Here's the solution I've come up with. I'm not totally sure about it, but it seems to make my Quicktimes look EXACTLY like my FCP footage.

In FCP: Export / Using QuickTime Conversions - Assuming you want H.264. Now click on Filter / ColorSync - Set source profile to Current , Set Destination profile to Adobe RGB 1998 D65 WP 2.2 Gamma.

Before you do this be sure that your Display preferences are calibrated to 1.8 Gamma, not 2.2.

You should also check out this article from Apple: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93794

Hope this helps.

[Stu Maschwitz]

Graeme's description of what FCP does sounds correct to me, but what kills me about it is the assumption that all Macs have a 1.8 display gamma. I set mine to 2.2, and FCP happily ignores that. In so many ways FCP is less compliant with Apple's own technologies and guidelines that most third-party applications.

After Effects CS3 bypasses Quicktime when it can and handles video color spaces much better as a result. Definitely a topic for a future blog posting.

-Stu

[Graeme Nattress]

Stu, absolutely agree on FCP and it's gamma-mangling. Apple are, AFAIK, aware of this. When they'll fix it and how, remains to be seen though.

Graeme

[Hans von Sonntag]

DeadMike,

This one has been killing me all day. Here's the solution I've come up with. I'm not totally sure about it, but it seems to make my Quicktimes look EXACTLY like my FCP footage.

In FCP: Export / Using QuickTime Conversions - Assuming you want H.264. Now click on Filter / ColorSync - Set source profile to Current , Set Destination profile to Adobe RGB 1998 D65 WP 2.2 Gamma.

Before you do this be sure that your Display preferences are calibrated to 1.8 Gamma, not 2.2.

You should also check out this article from Apple: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=93794

Hope this helps.

Hi Ninety-Nine

This Mac 1.8 gamma is really annoying I second that but remember that most computers are PCs. That means that they will see your QT with gamma 2.2.
Thus if you try to match the faked 2.2 gamma in FCP with a 2.2 setting in QT you will get a QT-film that will look on a 1.8 mac screen right and identical to your sequence in FCP but too dark on any PC.

My solution: I have my color critical monitors calibrated with a gamma of 2.2. All CC-Apps, Shake etc., don't do this FCP 1.8 to 2.2 gamma correction.
But beware: Any one who does CC within FCP without a external monitor connected to dedcated Video card (AJA, Decklink) and a monitor gamma of 2.2 will get into some trouble.

Bottom line: If you use FCP as your CC-app use 1.8 Mac standard, for anything else use 2.2.

My two cents (hopefully did not get too much wrong),

Edit: Got something wrong: As Stu mentioned FCP takes gamma 2.2 without correcting it even darker. So I did it right 2.2 is the way to go. Thanks Stu for that insight.

Hans

[P Andersson]

Definitely a topic for a future blog posting.

-Stu

good idea stu,

this is like another book dedicated to color handling for the rebel, cause ultimately it isn't only about gamma is it, the whole color profile thing is still confusing coming from photoshop over to video techniques, anyway, here are some related issues

the best and easiest ways to understand how gamma operates - links

why 1.8

why 2.2

if there are different optimal settings for different apps PS AE FCP etc

how to inspect a file for correct import conversion

what is the best web delivery for cross platform uniformity Flash or QT

How to deliver a master for DVD, SD, HD, BlueRay, digital cinema, or filmout

is there an application and codec that can serve as a base viewer on any platform (like an adobe rgb tiff on a well calibrated screen in photoshop) that one can know and trust and go from there to any deliverable format

where to read up on these issues

i have more questions on this, but can't think of them right now (going away for the weekend),

feel free to chime in with answers anyone