PDA

View Full Version : Baselight redcode raw workflow?



martinnoweck
01-21-2009, 12:48 PM
Hi there,

i have a question regarding the workflow for a RED / Sony PDW 700 (XDCAM 422) comparison shoot taking place at munich filmschool for the past two weeks.

We are going to grade on a baselight system next week and i have to prepare the selected shots for the grading. talking to the colorist he said they prefer a DPX sequence of the selected shots.

Question Nr. 01:
if i understand it correctly baselight cannot work natively with R3D Files until now?

which is the best setting to export a DPX sequence in REDALERT to preserve most of the raw data for the grading?

Question Nr. 02:
just to be fair ;-) the XDCAM 422 was set to hypergamma 3, detail off - i would use final cut to create a still sequence out of the XDCAM data - should i use the log & transfer tool or should i capture the hd sdi out of the camera via the AJA Kona 3 card? which sequence setting in final cut would be the "most lossless" for this purpose?

thanks in advance - kind regards,
martin

Martin Tlaskal
01-23-2009, 07:12 AM
Hi Martin,

In response to question 1: Are you planning to shoot these tests out to Film for evaluation? If so, it may make sense to encode to a log-like colour space as part of transfer, so that less drastic corrections are required during colour grading. If you've going to be evaluating on a monitor a more video-like tone-curve would be more appropriate. I'm not a RED Alert expert, I'm afraid, so I can't give you exact settings.

In terms of working natively with R3D media, I thought people would be interested in what FilmLight have been working on from a RED perspective. We've developed a near set transfer system for the digital camera shoot & post production market at a price below 30,000 for the base configuration.

In mid February will be delivering the full Linux based version of the product to partners who have been helping to refine the software via a Mac OS X build in use in actual productions.

Further specification will be available on FilmLight website around the beginning of February, however the highlight standard features are:

* Realtime half-res R3D decode for review, grading & image file output off CF, FireWire or file system
* 2K DPX playback off the file system
* Full set of powerful Baselight 4.1 conform tools supporting CMX/Avid AAF/FCP XML
* 16TB RAID protected storage giving 12TB formatted (c. 120 hrs at 224 megabits).
* Avid DNxHD MXF & Quicktime output

The system will have the capability for:

* 10/12 bit HD-SDI monitoring
* HD tape play out
* Truelight calibration
* SAS LTO-4 tape connection for backups

Naturally, all this R3D-related functionality will also be available to our existing Baselight customers.

Regards,

-Martin

martinnoweck
01-23-2009, 01:11 PM
Hi Martin,

thanks for your reply - no, we are not doing a filmout.

i was told by the posthouse that i should set color space to "camera rgb" and gamma space to "pd log 685".

any thougts?

kind regards,
martin

Robin Moran
01-26-2009, 03:57 AM
Hi Martin,

I'm currently in the process of conforming my project using RubberMonkey to go into Baselight. Making DPX for them. My question is did the post house say if they can use RED Log? Or do I have to go to PDLog985, PDLog685, or Lin? I'm avoiding Lin (guessing it's linear) so that the grader has more play in Baselight. Please advise.

P.S. This is not a cinema finish.

Mat@imageWork
01-27-2009, 02:01 PM
Hi Martin,

In response to question 1: Are you planning to shoot these tests out to Film for evaluation? If so, it may make sense to encode to a log-like colour space as part of transfer, so that less drastic corrections are required during colour grading. If you've going to be evaluating on a monitor a more video-like tone-curve would be more appropriate. I'm not a RED Alert expert, I'm afraid, so I can't give you exact settings.

In terms of working natively with R3D media, I thought people would be interested in what FilmLight have been working on from a RED perspective. We've developed a near set transfer system for the digital camera shoot & post production market at a price below 30,000 for the base configuration.

In mid February will be delivering the full Linux based version of the product to partners who have been helping to refine the software via a Mac OS X build in use in actual productions.

Further specification will be available on FilmLight website around the beginning of February, however the highlight standard features are:

* Realtime half-res R3D decode for review, grading & image file output off CF, FireWire or file system
* 2K DPX playback off the file system
* Full set of powerful Baselight 4.1 conform tools supporting CMX/Avid AAF/FCP XML
* 16TB RAID protected storage giving 12TB formatted (c. 120 hrs at 224 megabits).
* Avid DNxHD MXF & Quicktime output

The system will have the capability for:

* 10/12 bit HD-SDI monitoring
* HD tape play out
* Truelight calibration
* SAS LTO-4 tape connection for backups

Naturally, all this R3D-related functionality will also be available to our existing Baselight customers.

Regards,

-Martin

Hi Martin,

what do you mean by near set system? r3d player? would it play at 2K high footage in realtime?

Thanks Mathieu

Martin Tlaskal
01-28-2009, 08:50 AM
Hi Martin,

what do you mean by near set system? r3d player? would it play at 2K high footage in realtime?

Thanks Mathieu

Hi Mathieu,

Yes, it will play half-res R3D files natively on the timeline in real time, with additional Baselight grading going on as well.

We take "near set" to mean a machine sitting in the video village just off set, doing material reviews, very fast transcoding to QT/MXF for editorial, checking conforms etc.

We also believe that the machine is just as applicable to post houses. For example, we're able to rapidly transcode R3D files to DNxHD MXF - doing a full 4k->HD down res + encode. Those MXF files can be used directly in a Media Composer or a DS - no need to play out to tape and ingest on the Avid side.

-Martin

Chris Parker
01-28-2009, 09:48 AM
does the price include hardware?

Evin Grant
01-28-2009, 10:15 AM
Can the realtime output maintain and transmit meta data/timecode? This would be huge.

Martin Tlaskal
01-28-2009, 10:24 AM
does the price include hardware?

Yes it does. For that you'll get the machine (including GPU suitable for GPU grading), mouse, keyboard, CF card reader, 12TB of storage. In addition, you can purchase HD-SDI monitoring/ingest/playout, LTO tape backup support, custom Truelight calibration, JL-Cooper control surface etc.

-Martin

Martin Tlaskal
01-28-2009, 10:28 AM
Can the realtime output maintain and transmit meta data/timecode? This would be huge.

Metadata is maintained for all outputs (rendering to DPX/QT/MXF etc), as well as when going to tape. When you take our MXF files into Media Composer, you get the source timecode and tapename visible straight away in the bin - no need to extract that stuff from a separate ALE file. You can also edit the metadata within Baselight if you need to fix a timecode/tapename/whatever.

Mat@imageWork
01-28-2009, 10:37 AM
Metadata is maintained for all outputs (rendering to DPX/QT/MXF etc), as well as when going to tape. When you take our MXF files into Media Composer, you get the source timecode and tapename visible straight away in the bin - no need to extract that stuff from a separate ALE file. You can also edit the metadata within Baselight if you need to fix a timecode/tapename/whatever.

when you said fast QT DNxHD encode what are you exactly mean? What does include the 30K euro enter price? Have you also realtime playback throw GPU or I/O board?

Martin Tlaskal
01-28-2009, 11:04 AM
when you said fast QT DNxHD encode what are you exactly mean? What does include the 30K euro enter price? Have you also realtime playback throw GPU or I/O board?

We're currently getting about 3.5fps when doing a full 4k extract, transforming to HD and encoding to DNxHD. If you start from a 2k (half-res) source, I'd expect it to be fair bit quicker (I'm not near a machine right now). It is able to apply Baselight grading operations to the debayered R3D image using the GPU in real time. The DVS I/O board is an optional extra.

Mat@imageWork
01-28-2009, 11:08 AM
We're currently getting about 3.5fps when doing a full 4k extract, transforming to HD and encoding to DNxHD. If you start from a 2k (half-res) source, I'd expect it to be fair bit quicker (I'm not near a machine right now). It is able to apply Baselight grading operations to the debayered R3D image using the GPU in real time. The DVS I/O board is an optional extra.

So render is much slower than playback...Any SDI out throw GPU board? Metadata is handle when rendering and also throw playback?

J. Eric Camp
01-28-2009, 11:11 AM
This is all VERY interesting. You say real time 1/2 rez (2k) playback from the R3D. This is a full quality debayer?

Chris Parker
01-28-2009, 11:15 AM
very interesting indeed...are your plans to show this first at NAB?

Martin Tlaskal
01-28-2009, 11:16 AM
So render is much slower than playback...Any SDI out throw GPU board? Metadata is handle when rendering and also throw playback?

If you render 2k to DPX it is realtime straight to the disk. The figures I provided were for debayering 4k full quality, down scaling to HD using a nice algorithm and then encoding to DNxHD, if you start from 2k it'll be much quicker. We have our own custom hardware for HD-SDI monitoring and use DVS for HD-SDI I/O - we don't use the nVidia SDI output in any of our products. In terms of metadata handling we maintain tape name/timecode all the way through to DPX/MXF/QT. The same timecode is used when playing out.

Hope that clarifies things a little.

-Martin

Mat@imageWork
01-28-2009, 11:23 AM
If you render 2k to DPX it is realtime straight to the disk. The figures I provided were for debayering 4k full quality, down scaling to HD using a nice algorithm and then encoding to DNxHD, if you start from 2k it'll be much quicker. We have our own custom hardware for HD-SDI monitoring and use DVS for HD-SDI I/O - we don't use the nVidia SDI output in any of our products. In terms of metadata handling we maintain tape name/timecode all the way through to DPX/MXF/QT. The same timecode is used when playing out.

Hope that clarifies things a little.

-Martin

Ok so render to r3d to DPX at 2K (1/2 res) with high quality setting for debayern, antialising etc is realtime to disk out of these box?

simonpeterarnold
01-28-2009, 03:38 PM
Extremely interested in this product Martin as we currently have a Baselight 8 as our main non linear grading system so our colourists could use it straight out of the box. When are you expecting to start shipping? Is there any plans to add raw support for other camera's as well such as SI2K and Phantom?

Martin Tlaskal
01-29-2009, 07:33 AM
Extremely interested in this product Martin as we currently have a Baselight 8 as our main non linear grading system so our colourists could use it straight out of the box. When are you expecting to start shipping? Is there any plans to add raw support for other camera's as well such as SI2K and Phantom?

Hi Simon,

Launching beginning of February in terms of press release/detailed literature etc. First systems shipping middle of February to existing beta testers. We are currently working on supporting Phantom camera files and are making good progress. We would achieve SI-2K support by supporting CineForm, but that would come later, depending on demand.

-Martin

Mat@imageWork
01-30-2009, 04:47 AM
Hi Martin,

Due to the way the SDK is coded, I strongly doubt you are abble to render 2K to DPX in realtime within a single box. I encourage you to verify, but if I wrong, then you don't have the same sdk as every body does.

Mathieu

Martin Tlaskal
01-30-2009, 05:53 AM
Hi Martin,

Due to the way the SDK is coded, I strongly doubt you are abble to render 2K to DPX in realtime within a single box. I encourage you to verify, but if I wrong, then you don't have the same sdk as every body does.

Mathieu

Hi Mathieu,

Sorry about the delay in responding to your previous question - I needed to get access to the actual hardware to run more tests. We are able to render to 2k realtime at 24fps using the "Good" debayer setting. Running the same test for "Premium" debayer setting with everything turned on, we are getting around 12-14fps. Based on our beta feedback, people seem to think the "Good" settings ok for editorial proxies and for interactive review & grading. Many apologies for any confusion - I should have been clearer.

As for our use of the SDK, we're under the same NDA as every other SDK user, which means I'm not able to talk about our usage of it.

Regards,

-Martin

Mat@imageWork
01-30-2009, 06:48 AM
Thanks Martin, these number make more sense to me. I'll waiting for your final spec sheet of the product.

Mathieu

simonarnold
01-31-2009, 08:44 AM
Hi Simon,

Launching beginning of February in terms of press release/detailed literature etc. First systems shipping middle of February to existing beta testers. We are currently working on supporting Phantom camera files and are making good progress. We would achieve SI-2K support by supporting CineForm, but that would come later, depending on demand.

-Martin


Thanks Martin, great news you are working on Phantom as we are constantly working with that format as well as Red.