Current RED audio SUCKS!

[bobbystone]

YOu simply cannot plug a mic directly into the RED. The audio is abysmal,. First shot this morning was fine. Second shot totally unusable with a high pitched tone throughout. PLEASE let me have an upgraded audio board soon!

(The pictures were lovely, though!)

[michael zaletel]

Curious. Has anyone been able to get production-quality sound out of original audio board using any particular combination of settings, mics, environment?

I remember reading some tips about getting optimal sound but haven't heard whether optimal is actually usable.

-shooter

[Mark Phelan]

Sure, use a line level and everything works just fine. Yeah, I'm eagerly waiting for the board upgrade, so in the meantime, I'm running any mic into either the SD MM1 or the 442 to the camera.

[michael zaletel]

Sure, use a line level and everything works just fine. Yeah, I'm eagerly waiting for the board upgrade, so in the meantime, I'm running any mic into either the SD MM1 or the 442 to the camera.

442 - $2,495
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292985-REG/Sound_Devices_442_442_Portable_4_Channel.html

MM1 - $349
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292989-REG/Sound_Devices_MM1_MM_1_Single_Channel.html#specifi cations


Any other options anyone would highly recommend?

-shooter

[Kenn Michael]

My audio board upgrade came back yesterday and the new mic pres sound GREAT! Very clean. No noise.

[Matthew Rogers]

Well, considering a pro audio person would ALWAYS run audio through a mixer first, I think it's kinda odd that people are not using a mixer. You've got a killer image so you should be using a good mixer with quality preamps. Personally, I am using the MixPre (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292988-REG/Sound_Devices_MIXPRE_Mixpre_Portable_2.html) and it's produced great quality. I've also had sound guys with bigger mixers like the 302 and 442 go into the RED with excellent quality. Sure, you may not want to record a 50 million dollar movie onto the RED, but that will probably change (although, there still would be backup audio recorded.)

Line level is really the key. I'm sure that line level will sound even better with the new board, but until then I still can't tell the difference between audio recorded on a DAT and the RED through line level (different microphones make much much more of a difference.)

Matthew

[Marcus Struzina]

I've run a line level signal into an old gen Red audio board and had the high
pitched sound as well, so its not just as simple as avoiding phantom power.
Can't wait for the call.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I would say the 744t, cause is a BEAST that fits just right along side a Red...

If all you need is a good pre-amp for a boom and don't mind being tethered to the camera then the MM-1 will give you an excellent pre-amp and the monitoring ability needed... practically zero control over the signal aside from gain though I think it only goes up in steps which is a big issue to consider... a MixPre will go about $650 new I think and it has two channels in and out with proper gain controls.

A solution could be to buy a recorder and sell it once your board comes in... these are solid investments especially if bought used of course:

The 744t will let you record 4 channels of pristine audio, off the camera, which might even help avoid some of the bugs perhaps, not sure about that. It also has the same "arguably best pre-amps out there"... it will sync, record into the internal HDD and CF cards, and DVD-R at the same time if you chose to do so, it will do 24/192 and anything below that. It is more compact than anything out there and you could kill someone with it if you chose to use it as a weapon. lol... you could pick one up for $3,500 used... also a very solid investment.

There is also the 702t which is practically a twin with only two channels. $2,500 new.

[Joel Kaye]

Curious. Has anyone been able to get production-quality sound out of original audio board using any particular combination of settings, mics, environment.


I adapted an external phantom power box onto the camera and used a Sennheiser 416 with success. I had to normalize in post but it sounded fine. My camera has since been upgraded to the new audio board and it's terrific. 4 nice, clean channels perfectly fine for dialogue.

With the old audio board you have to supply line level or powered microphone level. A dynamic mic, like a SM58 will work straight into the camera just fine.

I can't comment on the guys with high pitched whines w/o phantom power. I never experienced that.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Using a Denecke phantom power box here with a RODE NTG-2 mic. Pretty good results on the old audio board. The NTG-2 is capable of battery power, but the mic level comes in way too low if I do it that way. The single internal AA battery just doesn't have enough juice. Still get better results running through a mixer and pushing line level into the camera with better external controls. I'm really looking forward to the new audio board upgrade.

[michael zaletel]

Hadn't thought of a dynamic mic right into the red. How's that powered. Anyone have success with that solution on old board. A mixer is not a reasonable option on small projects lacking sound crew?

-shooter

[Joel Kaye]

Hadn't thought of a dynamic mic right into the red.

No power required. They just aren't as sensitive as condensers. I used it for a stand up comedian once. It was staged so we just brought the mic straight into camera and it was fine because the guy was talking straight into the mic at close range. I don't think it would work well in a boom type of situation.

[Roberto Lequeux]

I hate to ask this, but I suppose you guys mostly work with audio guys with their own gear right? The Red One is one heluva camera to use without good audio.

[Mark Phelan]

Shooter,

Another idea. I've used an Audio Technica 897 dual powered shotgun with line level. It has the option of an internal AA battery or phantom power. That might be a possible option.

[Roberto Lequeux]

So does the NTG-2 actually.

[Tom Visser]

When you buy a Ferrari, you don't put in 89 Octane gas or use Hankook tires (Tyres for you Brits?). Its a high end camera, it deserves to have talented crew operating it, and not just camera people, but sound department type crew / equipment too.

When working with older audio boards, in addition to making sure your using line level, also remember to put -10dB pads in place or if the mixer has configurable output levels, to adjust the output levels of the mixer to -10dB.

[Tarek S. Kandil]

I don't believe in matching the gear as far as 'red is super awesome so you need a super awesome mic to match'

This translates as more gear lust, which i doubt is RED's motto in filmmaking.

gear lust is harmful and the more gear you have with sound the more channels a signal has to travel through, ultimately adding noise unless you're using fiberoptic cables, in that case you could've probably afforded much much more than the red to begin with.

I wouldn't recommend a mixer unless there's that absolute need for several channels to be mixed. Also if there's a need for multitracking, you're better off recording externally to a sequencer where you can later alter and mix down and do all the good stuff to your audio file.

Dunno about red's audio i/o but i find that if you have 2 mono inputs that's more than enough. If you're workin with more, and you're already going as digital as it gets (RED) record your audio on a multitrack. a g4 with 1G of RAM is way more than enough to handle 4 tracks recorded at 48khz.

I've used several amps and pres and mics before, the most versatile and affordable and durable mics are the shure sm57 and 58.

They are dynamic yes and are less sensitive than condenser mics. But coming from a backrgound in analog audio and heavy studio work, I find that the more 'boutique' your mic, the more your environment has to be controlled. If you're shooting outdoors, use an array of dynamics.

Condenser mics are super delicate, and end of the day, if you clip you clip. On a neumann on an akg on a shure.

I record low. Then boost up and clean. I try to keep my recorded files limited from the get go at -10 db. For music i bring everything up via compression after mixdown to the musical -.3 or other requirement for broadcast etc.

Always record at 48khz minimum. If you record at 96khz, master down to 48 as final. If you need a 44.1khz final, record at 88.2khz. Just like scaling down from hi res to low res have the numbers nice and even.

Cables are so important to noise. The more sensitive your mic, the more cable length and girth will matter (har har i said girth).

Haven't tried Red's audio board, but the less channels an audio signal travels through, the less noise you get. Record lower than you'd like.

In my opinion a soft mixer would serve better than an actual board, that way you can see the waveform you record. I set up cubase on a laptop and that's my recorder if I'm sitting down. that way you can really fine tune your input level.

Go with shure dynamics i say. Bring a laptop in. Is there any 'out' or 'thru' in the red board? that would be the difference if it had outputs as well as inputs, makes it an interface as opposed to just a recorder.

Cheers guys

t

[Roberto Lequeux]

I don't think "lust" makes any sort of sense here... at all... not when 50% of the audience's emotions are evoked by the audio.

And what does Red have to do with mics, did they start making them?

how are cables added by employing a mixer or monitoring box? If you want to get the sound, then you need your boom op to be able to hear what he is booming... positioning positioning positioning

even a monitoring box with nothing but phantom and a headphone jack will use the same amount of wires as any mixer... unless you go wireless, but then you are going wireless and that's a whole an other deal... or better yet, a mixer and a boom op which is the only way to fly unless you are talking about ENG or low budget

If you use a 702t or other recorder then your cable is only as long as your boom plus 5ft

if you want to get really pesky about it the best audio will always use good XLRs as opposed to wireless, of course wireless transmitters are phenomenal nowadays, if you have the money to get the right ones, however I am not talking about lavalier mics which do not sound anywhere close to a boom... I am only talking about transiting wirelessly... lavs are only good for backups if you care about your project... or course some lavs can sound very decent if that is the only avenue

audio suffers from cleaning... it should be avoided at all cost

if you do your own audio, and you bought a Red One package, you would be a fool not to make a solid investment into audio... sorry about the passion, please don't take it as a personal thing.. but if you don't try to match you don't understand, especially when you don't need anywhere close to the same amount of money to get decent audio, not in the same continent, you could get good audio with $2,500 worth of equipment going into a Red one, so long as your boom op is good

I mean good audio as in audio considered good by working mixers

if you clip it was not the mic's fault, it was the fault of the guy setting the gain

of course you can also match by hiring someone that does understand and has their own gear from job to job

beyond the gear there is also the all important operating... bad booming can make a $3,000 mic sound like a horse's ass after mowing a whole field by himself, or a $200 mic sound like an decent recording studio mic, provided you bought the right 200 dollar mic and are using it under the proper conditions of course... just like the old saying it is not the gear but the people operating it... or however it goes...

again, please don't take this post wrong but I am one of those guys fed up with people not caring about audio... one can not exist without the other, or it would feel like a 1929 movie

ok, enough ranting... sorry about that

[Tom Visser]

hi Tarek, I also have many issues with you're post. I'm not trying to attack you, but I feel you don't understand production audio fully. You seem to have a "fix it in post" attitude with respect to audio that I'm sure you don't have with imagery. You're suggestion to bring up levels (normalize?) and clean (noise reduction) is akin to boosting the brightness and reducing the sharpness of an image, rather than lighting properly and using correct lenses, ISO settings, etc, during production.

You've eliminated all human elements from you're audio workflow, which is a shame, because that is probably the most important part of the mechanism. I do happen to splurge a little bit on my gear, but I think this only makes sense as my livelyhood is dependent on my equipment and skills, as my profession is audio. I'm interested in RED simply as a hobbyist and my curiosity about the equipment my coworkers use.

You may not be overly critical regarding sound quality and can enjoy a piece of cinema without becoming distracted by audio glitches. I think that is actually an admiral quality to have as a consumer of cinema, but it is unfair to assume that the entire consumer base shares you're aesthetic and to ignore conventions and quality that the industry embraces / demands. You owe it to yourself, the crew you collaborate with, you're investors, and you're audience to hire audio crew when you're budget allows.

[Tarek S. Kandil]

I'm with all everyone on going out and feeding a proper signal, but all I'm trying to say is that when miking I find its more about the space than the mic used, etc.

I am easily satisfied, this is true, i don't mind glitches and the such, of course if avoided would be ideal, but in this case, set up an entire multitrack facility on set, then have your condensers charged up and ready.

I just like the SM58, if I'm plugging into a camera, that's probably what I'd do.

I do like to fix in post, I think certain things can be made up for.

At the same time, I've been in audio at a studio recording music for a while, I just started with imagery and booming is completely different for me than the ultra controlled environment you can build in a booth.

I dunno if I'm clear, I have been a mess so I may skip words, but I think if the red has outputs, or if you're recording into something where you can see a lot more than a VU meter, it would be a different case.

Sorry guys, thought I was helping.

Not feelin well. I'll keep it to myself next time, thought someone wanted to plug straight in and go. Fixing it in post is just how i play safe.

Cheers REDusers

Tarek

[Roberto B]

My audio board upgrade came back yesterday and the new mic pres sound GREAT! Very clean. No noise.nice to know

[Sanjin Jukic]

I use Avid/M-Audio MicroTrack II to phantom power RODE-NTG3.

First set volume and gain at MicroTrack II.

Second Presss record at MicroTrack II and get best audio with

LINE OUT from MicroTrack II to record again to one channel at RED1.

All that with OLD R1 audio board.

Watch and listen result at>>> (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24224&page=2)

The rest of three channels you could feed using Behringer UBB1002

professional battery powered mic/line mixer (has also phantom power 48V).

Using RODE-NTG3 mics you get excellent sound quality that can compete

with Sennheiser, Shoeps or Neuman.

All my listed equipment is on a budget.

Nothing fancy and expensive.

If RED is too loud because of its cooling ventilation fans

no any super expensive and advanced recording equipment could help.

[Tom Visser]

I'm with all everyone on going out and feeding a proper signal, but all I'm trying to say is that when miking I find its more about the space than the mic used, etc.

I am easily satisfied, this is true, i don't mind glitches and the such, of course if avoided would be ideal, but in this case, set up an entire multitrack facility on set, then have your condensers charged up and ready.

I just like the SM58, if I'm plugging into a camera, that's probably what I'd do.

I do like to fix in post, I think certain things can be made up for.

At the same time, I've been in audio at a studio recording music for a while, I just started with imagery and booming is completely different for me than the ultra controlled environment you can build in a booth.

I dunno if I'm clear, I have been a mess so I may skip words, but I think if the red has outputs, or if you're recording into something where you can see a lot more than a VU meter, it would be a different case.

Sorry guys, thought I was helping.

Not feelin well. I'll keep it to myself next time, thought someone wanted to plug straight in and go. Fixing it in post is just how i play safe.

Cheers REDusers

Tarek

Hi Tarek,

This is an open forum and my last intention was to start a non-productive argument or seem to be bullying anyone. Please understand that I welcome your disagreement and different experiences as valuable too.

When it comes to music production, I absolutely agree, the room and acoustics and microphone placement has more to do with the production than even the microphone or mic preamp used. When it comes to sound for video/film/cinema, I find that the goal is to get dialogue dry clear - that ambience is usually added in post, not because it sounds "better" this way, but is the only way that a film can be cut together in a seamless way and allow post the flexibility to manipulate the material in a non-linear way. My problems with using a dynamic such as a Shure SM58 going direct to the camera, versus something like a Sennheiser MKH 416 going into a Sound Devices mixer really all comes back to the goal of getting dialogue at proper levels with minimal noise, whether noise floor from the equipment or background noise. Let's say your goal is to get audio to peak at about -12dBFs. If you simply turn up the gain enough on a directly connected SM58 at typical boom distances, your going to have so much room noise that it will be impossible to get rid of it. Also, you will likely clip your audio during dynamic passages, as it will be impossible for you to reduce gain as necessary. The self noise of a mic such as the MKH 416 is greatly reduced, sensitivity is much higher, translating in more source and less background. Having a mixer allows one to turn up the gain when the talent is speaking lower, mic is further away, talent is facing away from mic, etc... and to reduce gain in situations where levels are becoming too hot. This manipulation of the gain levels is what allows us to deliver audio files to the editor that he can use without artifacts that hinders his ability to concatenate a scene that is seamless and provides that credible illusion of realism allowing the audience to get into the film. Our ears are much more sensitive than microphones, and to allow dialogue to pop or drop as the microphone hears it would not sound natural to us.

I think your statement about "playing it safe" just hooking up a dynamic mic into the RED and go may be based upon bad experiences with either "mixers" trying to figuring out complicated audio equipment, or having boom ops that were not experienced... and true, in such a situation, the results can be a disaster. My view is that such direct connection is the opposite of safe, assuming that you have the resources available to you to do it the professional way. Although I wouldn't say "never use noise reduction" like anything, it has to be used in moderation. There is no magical DSP algorithm to fix audio that was not correctly recorded.

[Roberto Lequeux]

Sanjin, if red one's fan is giving you an issue then you should look into a shotgun with a narrower pick up... and a skilled boom op that can handle it properly cause the narrower you get the exponentially trickier it gets to mic properly. If you weren't using a directional mic then any shotgun might do the trick so long as you mic away from the R1 and not towards it.

Good points Tom. The best audio you could give me so that I don't harakiri myself in post is a one with constant levels and one that is as clean as possible of easily discernible noises for continuity. Very good point.

The levels being the same through out each scene at least also helps avoid differences from one line of dialogue due to clean up, and big differences in level matching which doesn't magically increase only the voice and thus increase ambiance and reverb from a reflective environments.

Tarek, please don't feel bad, I am sorry if my post came on a bit too strong and please know that this is not directed to you personally. Still, there is no such thing as hanging microphones for narrative work, not unless you are talking about an awesome overkill setup where you are getting additional tracks of the couch where the subject is sitting, a mic dedicated to the noised from the silverware plates glasses... but in a real world scenario where you won't do that 99% of the time, no matter how much of a wiz you are in the studio --which I bet is far beyond my such abilities-- the single most important aspect of dialogue audio is mic placement... sound intensity drops with the square of the distance to the sound source... the closer you get the more magical your audio will be...that's why in control environments you employ pop filters, to be able to get your vocalists as close as possible to the mic

Rule #1 people... you ALWAYS have time to give your boom op the frame line.

I don't feel like having to record ADR which is almost NEVER as good as the real thing performance wise, and I don't feel like rotoscoping the boom off my best performance take.

Rule #2... NEVER yell at my boom op! Unless you want to risk me going apeshit, he is creating just as well as you are.. I want him to find the best direction in which to mic, I want him to be able to more around and swing as needed and I NEED him to feel respected so he does a good job..

Can you tell I have issues I am dealing with hehe... I <3 you all! :D

BTW, you don't need to get the wonderful MKH 416 if you can't afford it, an AT4073a can be found for under $450 used and is even considered decent by 416 owners. Couple it with an MK-012a for interiors and you have a solid personal setup. So long as you also have a good boom, shock mount and wind protection. And a good operator.

If the production required more then you will hire Tom anyway and he'll bring and operate his 416 along with a few tenths of thousands in other gear that will properly match your visual efforts... he will operate with the diligence and a love others put into operating their R1s. And your audio won't DESTROY your project that you killed yourself to put together... of course audio can't make a disgusting image look better... but why not add to your production when it is SO inexpensive in comparison? Your full on sound crew is 2 guys... 3 if you add a wrangler, 4 if you add a second boom op... their gear rentals are nothing compared to grip + electric + camera + optics + support + genny...

here is an other way to make my point... please explain to me why movies would pay out millions for score if it wasn't important

and the beauty about it is that if you don't do the audio work and just hire someone you won't bust your ass, you just pay and coexist on set...

The best part may be that when your clients watch your reel and they don't cringe in pain grabbing onto the couch, but instead their brain happily accepts all coming in through the ears without the need to adapt it too much, well they will almost all of the time attribute it to your efforts, assume it was your images that made them feel better than your competitors images even if they were just as wonderful... and they will sign the big fat check right then and there

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin, if red one's fan is giving you an issue then you should look into a shotgun with a narrower pick up... and a skilled boom op that can handle it properly cause the narrower you get the exponentially trickier it gets to mic properly. If you weren't using a directional mic then any shotgun might do the trick so long as you mic away from the R1 and not towards it.



USlatin,

imagine you are shooting in a car at the temperature +30C/95F with R1 that has a boom/consender mic on.

Only noise of car engine and loudness from outer traffic jam can save you from hearing R1 fans.

I do not have still problem with R1 fans (now is winter in Austria) but just thinking about a hot summer shooting with boom mic on the cam.

[Tarek S. Kandil]

Hey all,

Totally not offended, never, I know its an open forum.

I have been in weird places lately, and have been talkin s**t all over, so I read my posts over and realize I ahve no clue.

I totally agree with all you are saying, been in analog audio for years (since 89) and have been recording music, and with analog, I always found it hard to maintain objective w a lot of gear.

As robert keeps saying, which I also agree with, most important in audio, placement placement placement, ie environment.

It's always about the space, especially with the sensitive mikes...

I have extensive experience in the studio, very little in booming for cinema.

Dunno even what a lav is,

I think I'm now single, and live in lebanon, where I do evrything myself, including developing my own film.

Things have been a bit weird, I may have misposted is all I meant, kinda been out of it, and didn't mean to waste space,

Rob, you congratulated me on something I've done that I still ahven't been able to post, sorry mate.

Guys I understand its an open forum, no offense taken at all...

I'm still a kid at all this.

Also seriously been a rough week.

Gonna read some books, cheers guys...

T

[Roberto Lequeux]

I've never heard the fans yet, but I guess it was the only way to make R1 back when it first came out. I hope The new brains will take full advantage of smaller more efficient architecture.. Jim said they would generate less heat and use less power, at least that's what I think I remember.

Perhaps a sound blanket not wrapped around the camera but folded and held directly in front of the fan side of the camera could help soak up a bit of that hiss if there is space and a way to hold it in place.

Best wishes for you Tarek, hope you feel better soon! BTW, lavs are the little tiny mics you clip on the shirts of people which are wired to a wireless box you hide in their clothes. A receiving wireless box at your mixer get's the signal... Great for isolated dialoge for that one person, but the bigger you can make your mic the better it will be at a given cost.. that's why your studio mics can be phenomenally huge at times, and to get the same quality on a shotgun style you need to pay much much more, but lavs are so tiny that they are not as good... not sure if they ever would be able to catch up either. Oh and BTW Tarek, one man shows are the most commendable thing ever... the fact that you make it happen at all is a reason for being celebrated in of itself.

[Rich Schaefer]

I just got my camera #115 back from upgrades. I shot some tests yesterday and all went great.

I shot with a shotgun mic I borrowed off a Sony camcorder. I powered it off the Red cameras 48v phantom. I used my original (recently approved "OK" by Red) mini XLR to XLR cable right into the mic. It worked great and sounded great!!! (except I need a decent shock mount).

[Mark Phelan]

Rub it in. Unfortunately, I am going to possibly be the very last person to get the audio board upgrade since my camera delivered August 31, two weeks before they made the switchover in delivering the cameras with the new board. I'm wondering if Epic will be here before my sound board upgrade. It could happen...

[Rich Schaefer]

Rub it in. Unfortunately, I am going to possibly be the very last person to get the audio board upgrade since my camera delivered August 31, two weeks before they made the switchover in delivering the cameras with the new board. I'm wondering if Epic will be here before my sound board upgrade. It could happen...

Sorry Bro, not trying to rub it in. Paitence is a Red virtue. (Its worse with some other unnamed vendors).

Oh No no no, you will have your audio board before you have an epic! Trust an early Red beliver! (#115)

[Brian Chapman]

USlatin,

imagine you are shooting in a car at the temperature +30C/95F with R1 that has a boom/consender mic on.

Only noise of car engine and loudness from outer traffic jam can save you from hearing R1 fans.

I do not have still problem with R1 fans (now is winter in Austria) but just thinking about a hot summer shooting with boom mic on the cam.


If you are shooting in a car. Personally i'd try putting a lav mic on each of your actors.

[Brian Chapman]

[QUOTE=Tarek S. Kandil;363896]I'm with all everyone on going out and feeding a proper signal, but all I'm trying to say is that when miking I find its more about the space than the mic used, etc.

I am easily satisfied, this is true, i don't mind glitches and the such, of course if avoided would be ideal, but in this case, set up an entire multitrack facility on set, then have your condensers charged up and ready.

I just like the SM58, if I'm plugging into a camera, that's probably what I'd do.

-Tarek



I do like to fix in post, I think certain things can be made up for.

A microphone is like a filter or lens on the camera. It allows you to capture different patterns of sound. Just like a camera filter, you'd use a microphone that helps your specific setting.

My motto is this: no matter how low budget you get, always make sure you get good audio. Hire a good sound recordist to grab your audio. Bad audio makes for a bad headache down the road, and a dent in your wallet.

-Brian