Renting Out Red

[Zakaree Sandberg]

quick question..
I know ill be working with red alot in my dping and whatnot but lets face it.. i wont be shooting 24/7 and even still alot of my work will be done on a dvx or hvx (run and gun type stuff) so i plan on renting my camera out..

my package will consist of RED ONE, NIKON lenses, RED RAILS, RED CAGE, Viewfinder, lcd, grips, raincover, 2 batteries, digital magazine (maybe)
how much can i rent this for.. i will get insurrance.. but for rentng do i make the renter provide their own insurrance?

[Bret Weeks]

Yep. You'll want your own policy in place to cover stoarge, transport (shipping), theft, damage etc., but MAKE SURE that your the parties renting your camera are insured- The amount of coverage they need to have is up to you - we go by the PERA guidelines (Production Equipment Rental Association) of $1.0M Liability, w/ $1.0M for Automotive if the client is renting trucks with other equipment-

I think the PERA website is www.peraonlne.org- but they don't really have much online without joining - feel free to take a look at our terms and conditions @ www.griptruck.com - just download the new client pack under the downloads section-

Have Fun-

BW

DR&A / Griptruck.com
971 & 972 & the lenses, of course.

[Mark Thorpe]

Hi Guys,
Great post so I'm sorry if it appears that I am pissing on your bonfire with my recent posting "The finer points of RED rentals". I think this issue is well timed as the delivery dates looms. Lets face it this is the epicenter of all things RED so I hope we can find some kind of common ground and settle a standard pricing structure for rental issues. I'm very interested in this matter as I will also be making available the underwater housing and HMI's etc etc.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Martin Ludwig]

Let´s continue in this thread,
maybe Red can organize a Rental meeting while NAB.
the minimum we could do is to define the pricing structure....

[Sanjin Jukic]

Good and I would like to read some Austrian/German/Swiss commentaries about the future RED rental policies in those countries.

[Mark Thorpe]

Please keep me posted on that as I will not be able to get to NAB. Bang in the middle of busy times here in Palau and whilst its not a part of my work I will continue for much longer my daily diving forays to provide divers with souvenir DVD's is now at peak season. Gotta pay for the RED in a few months so diving like a crazy git every day.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Martin Ludwig]

they will be the same as everywhere. what do you want to read - our proposals for rental rates? how we will fit the packages?
we are based in munich - with 5 own reservations and cooperating with another company holding also 5 reservations...

[Mark Thorpe]

Your rental models for RED are your own, I'm not asking you to share them. I am just interested in what one could see and expect as the benchmark figure for RED rentals with the cam in differing configurations. As I mentioned before I don't think many of us have availed our equipment in the past as rental materials and as such am just interested to see if that option, when I am not working with the unit, is a viable one to look at in order to reccuperate part of my investment.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Stephen Williams]

Your rental models for RED are your own, I'm not asking you to share them. I am just interested in what one could see and expect as the benchmark figure for RED rentals with the cam in differing configurations. As I mentioned before I don't think many of us have availed our equipment in the past as rental materials and as such am just interested to see if that option, when I am not working with the unit, is a viable one to look at in order to reccuperate part of my investment.

Cheers,
Mark.

Hi,

Often the starting point for rental cost as about 1% of cost per day, with a week being 3 days. So a Red body should rent for about $200 day or $600 week. A fully loaded Red with a full set of Cooke S4's etc will cost well in excess of $1500 per day.

Stephen

[Häakon]

Hi,

You can use the "1% rule" for more expensive cameras, but it's more or less exponential on the way down and I don't think you'll find it applying to most of the more "inexpensive" cameras. The cheapest I've ever seen an HVX daily rate was $250 at Zacuto, and that's without any kind of rails, matteboxes, follow focuses or what have you. At Clairmont (a very respected and standardized Hollywood camera house), the HVX rents for $450 a day. Varicams are still renting for a grand, and although they are more expensive cameras, they will pale in comparison to RED in many ways after its release, so it would be hard to justify either pricing RED that much lower (or the Varicam that much higher). No, I think the camera body will probably rent for no less than $500 a day, and serious glass to pair it with won't be cheap either. Certainly RED will cause some prices to shift and settle (great for all of us), but with DVXs still renting around $200, I can't see any (legit) company sending their Red out there for a similar price.

Best,

Häakon

[Stephen Williams]

Hi Häakon,

The reason IMHO that cheaper video cameras rent for a higher percentage of cost is their short life cycle of 2-3 years.

As Red should have a very long useful life , I don't see any reason to charge $500 day for a body only, when somebody could buy one for 18 single days use.

Clearly time will tell, but with possibly 1000+ cameras available, I would not bet on high rental prices.

Stephen


Hi,

You can use the "1% rule" for more expensive cameras, but it's more or less exponential on the way down and I don't think you'll find it applying to most of the more "inexpensive" cameras. The cheapest I've ever seen an HVX daily rate was $250 at Zacuto, and that's without any kind of rails, matteboxes, follow focuses or what have you. At Clairmont (a very respected and standardized Hollywood camera house), the HVX rents for $450 a day. Varicams are still renting for a grand, and although they are more expensive cameras, they will pale in comparison to RED in many ways after its release, so it would be hard to justify either pricing RED that much lower (or the Varicam that much higher). No, I think the camera body will probably rent for no less than $500 a day, and serious glass to pair it with won't be cheap either. Certainly RED will cause some prices to shift and settle (great for all of us), but with DVXs still renting around $200, I can't see any (legit) company sending their Red out there for a similar price.

Best,

Häakon

[Finner]

Personally I think a renter should charge what they can charge.

What I mean by this is a renter should get as much as they can. Lets face its a fact that all of us who have reserved a RED have taken a chance and put our bets on RED. This fact makes being someone that has a RED available to rent worth premium $$. Another fact if RED produces the camera they say damand will be high and availability will be low so that will be worth premium $$.

Like mentioned some of the cheapest day rentals around for a HVX is $250 and that camera is worth less then one third of a RED body. When I start to rent my RED it will be $750-$1,000 a day for body plus some accesories. If renters feel its too much they can find another RED, oops thats right theres not many out there and they are in high demand so supply and demand will regulate $$.

Keep in mind though if you rent a camera out for a one day shoot they will need the camera on the previous day to do camera prep with lenses and other accesories and will probably return the camera on the day after the shoot. So a one day rental becomes having the camera gone for 3 days. In this case I will as most camera rental houses do charge for 1 day of rental. Thus if a camera rents for longer then 1 day the cost will reflect the amount of time rented and be less then the $750-$1,000 a day.

In the end pretty much everyone who has gambled on RED deserves a reward for it. That reward will be $$ in the form of high rental costs in the begining. Rental prices will come down fast enough there is no use pricing it low off the bat.

[Steven Parker]

Hello All--

I like the idea and ability to discuss and set a dayrate for our REDs but how difficult it will be... I'm sure some of us have high-end corporate clients for short term shoots who will pay high rates, then some of us are indie filmmakers who are constantly nickle-and-dimed to death...an investment like RED could be a risky proposition for the second bunch, especially if rental houses are willing to give clients a 1day or 2day week (standard practice in the film biz).

I think Finner's right - get what you can for it and the market will determine who's asking too much.

[Matt Redmond]

It all depends on where you are in the world too as to how much you can expect to put your "RED" out for rent. There is no "one rate fits all." Some rental houses can justify having higher rates simply due to the fact that they CAN get those higher rates. With more competition, and the realisation that not all areas have production companies with access to monster budgets, the hire rates are understandably going to be much lower.

It doesn't earn money by sitting on the shelf.

[Stephen Williams]

I think Finner's right - get what you can for it and the market will determine who's asking too much.

Hi,

I totally agree, market forces will apply! List price before standard 50% plus discount.

FWIW many rental companies use camera body as a loss leader, their profit comes from accessories.(Back up body often free)

Stephen

[Scott Webster]

Hi,

I totally agree, market forces will apply! List price before standard 50% plus discount.

FWIW many rental companies use camera body as a loss leader, their profit comes from accessories.(Back up body often free)

Stephen

Yes and those lucky enough to have Cookes and Zeiss sitting on the shelf have the worlds cheapest PL mount camera to get them out the door!

[Stephen Williams]

Yes and those lucky enough to have Cookes and Zeiss sitting on the shelf have the worlds cheapest PL mount camera to get them out the door!

Hi Rocketeer,

That is exactly my feeling!

Stephen

[Steven Parker]

Maybe the rate is determined by the format you output for the client? If someone wants a feature in 1080p beacuse of their post path they really shouldn't be charged as much as the client who can afford 2K or 4K...

And does any one see REDCINE as a potential income stream? Or just as a requirement to deliver usable footage?

[Evin Grant]

As a reference Indie rentals has stated that their Reds will rent for $495 a day. That seems to be without lenses, accesories or storage. I think an independent owner/operator/DP will want to undercut the rental houses just enough to stay competitive, and you will always be renting a whole package because that is what is needed to shoot. I will probably rent my Red package as such...

Red One Body w/Viewfinder & LCD... $400
Nikon lens set (7 lenses)... $250
Red Drive... $100 (Each)
Red Ram... $150 (depending on final cost)
Basic accesories... $100 (Mattebox, Follow focus, Red Rail, Tripod)
So a single day package rental ends up at $1000 but is still 20% less than if a producer walked into a rental house.
That's a good incentive to hire an owner/oporator/DP.

[Evin Grant]

And does any one see REDCINE as a potential income stream? Or just as a requirement to deliver usable footage?

Absolutely! I plan on offering not just shooting services but transfer and finishing services as well. Check out Colorista!

[Zakaree Sandberg]

i was thinkin 6-700 per day for the body.. plus basic accessories..

in a post on dvx before it was taken off!!! i had issued a notice of a rentals page i would set up.. www.digitalcinemacameras.com all of us renting could use it as a craigs list for film making basically.. post rates.. locations.. and that way there would be a backup system involved in case one camera goes rogue.

[betty schaefer]

me thinks you need to have more than just one red if you want to start a small rental service. camera must be replaceable within half a day on a shoot if it dies. having a crew waiting just costs too much.. but i might be wrong

[Stephen Williams]

me thinks you need to have more than just one red if you want to start a small rental service. camera must be replaceable within half a day on a shoot if it dies. having a crew waiting just costs too much.. but i might be wrong

Hi,

Often with new technology, insurance companies will insist that a back up body is on hand. 4 hours delay can cost way more than a Red body.

Stephen

[Scott Webster]

Be careful you do not separate the amount of time you will need to educate your clients from the rental rate on the camera. Initially the Red camera is going to be time and education intensive and you may get to the point where a low rate is not covering your effort in actually getting the camera out the door.

[betty schaefer]

..although i can imagine in the first weeks/months when REDs are scarce big productions will rent left and right..as it costs less to use a RED as a stunt camera than an old arri 35 III :) ..that was mean..sorry

[Stephen Williams]

Be careful you do not separate the amount of time you will need to educate your clients from the rental rate on the camera. Initially the Red camera is going to be time and education intensive and you may get to the point where a low rate is not covering your effort in actually getting the camera out the door.

Hi Rocketeer,

The Red camera should be very quick to master IMHO.

Stephen

[Sanjin Jukic]

Personally I think a renter should charge what they can charge.

What I mean by this is a renter should get as much as they can. Lets face its a fact that all of us who have reserved a RED have taken a chance and put our bets on RED. This fact makes being someone that has a RED available to rent worth premium $$. Another fact if RED produces the camera they say damand will be high and availability will be low so that will be worth premium $$.

Like mentioned some of the cheapest day rentals around for a HVX is $250 and that camera is worth less then one third of a RED body. When I start to rent my RED it will be $750-$1,000 a day for body plus some accesories. If renters feel its too much they can find another RED, oops thats right theres not many out there and they are in high demand so supply and demand will regulate $$.

Keep in mind though if you rent a camera out for a one day shoot they will need the camera on the previous day to do camera prep with lenses and other accesories and will probably return the camera on the day after the shoot. So a one day rental becomes having the camera gone for 3 days. In this case I will as most camera rental houses do charge for 1 day of rental. Thus if a camera rents for longer then 1 day the cost will reflect the amount of time rented and be less then the $750-$1,000 a day.

In the end pretty much everyone who has gambled on RED deserves a reward for it. That reward will be $$ in the form of high rental costs in the begining. Rental prices will come down fast enough there is no use pricing it low off the bat.

Finner you are totally right. Very honest and a smart opinion.

[Stephen Williams]

..although i can imagine in the first weeks/months when REDs are scarce big productions will rent left and right..as it costs less to use a RED as a stunt camera than an old arri 35 III :) ..that was mean..sorry

Hi Betty,

Interesting point, not sure how well the data will survive if its recorded on a raid!

Stephen

[Scott Webster]

Hi Rocketeer,

The Red camera should be very quick to master IMHO.

Stephen

Hi Stephen,

Yes from a DOP's perspective I have no doubt the camera will be quick to pickup. It is producers who tend to be more risk averse and with short attention spans. Some DOP's have more influence over them than others;)

[Sanjin Jukic]

Finner, also as we know here in Vienna the film rentals are not renting the camera body only, you get an option to hire one skilled technician, assistant or even DP with the camera. It's a very simple security how they trying to protect the equipment from unskilled use or other non-standard treat to the cam. Have a look at
http://www.moviecam.at/

[betty schaefer]

hi stephen..don't know long tha cables can be - meaning how far away the raid can be from the camera/ 'crash-site'
ps: wonderful wonderful fries you got

[Stephen Williams]

Finner, also as we know here in Vienna the film rentals are not renting the camera body only, you get an option to hire skilled technician, assistant or even DP with camera. It's because how they protect the equipment from unskilled use or other non-standard use.

Hi,

Thats funny, I always rent for non-standard use! If you tell the rental company what you are shooting they give you their oldest kit hoping for an insurance claim!

Stephen

[betty schaefer]

one last thought: RED owners are madly in love with their camera (completely normal, i love my aaton and arri too). renting it out means accepting that it will be completely scratched and dented after a year..needing overhauls and paint jobs...so you really have to run it as a business and be a bit detached from the object - no?

[Stephen Williams]

ps: wonderful wonderful fries you got

Hi Betty,

It started life at Cape Canaveral (1959), shot some effects work on Titanic & Dante's Peak by Digital Domain before they sold it to me on Ebay! I may have sold it, to make way for a new camera!

Stephen

[Daniel Reichenbach]

I'm in the discussion for renting and will follow the price politics of the REDCORE. Hope to be at NAB talk to you guys about future, prices and stunning REDpics




Good and I would like to read some Austrian/German/Swiss commentaries about the future RED rental policies in those countries.