The finer points of RED Rentals

[Mark Thorpe]

Hi Guys,
I know there has been an increasing number of threads as regarding the renting out of RED cams as a way to reccuperate the outlay of buying this system. I would like to think that seeing as this site is and forever will be the nerve centre of all things relating to RED there will eventually be some sticky related to RED Rentals. I think that we owe it to ourselves to set the industry standard when it comes to rental costs for RED and all its peripherals. I would suggest a brainstorming session with the objective of settling a tiered rental structure starting with the RED body only and then different costs for the added peripherals, Cage, Rails, Magazines, Lenses etc etc.

I'd hate to think that the cammeraderie and friendships we are building pre-delivery will be washed away as individuals look to rent out their systems and do so by undercutting all and sundry. Business is business I know but if we set a recognized pricing structure I believe we can all have an equal chance at benefiting from the initial industry demand for RED as and when deliveries start.

Just a thought,
Cheers,
Mark.

[Martin Ludwig]

Hi Guys,
I know there has been an increasing number of threads as regarding the renting out of RED cams as a way to reccuperate the outlay of buying this system. I would like to think that seeing as this site is and forever will be the nerve centre of all things relating to RED there will eventually be some sticky related to RED Rentals. I think that we owe it to ourselves to set the industry standard when it comes to rental costs for RED and all its peripherals. I would suggest a brainstorming session with the objective of settling a tiered rental structure starting with the RED body only and then different costs for the added peripherals, Cage, Rails, Magazines, Lenses etc etc.

I'd hate to think that the cammeraderie and friendships we are building pre-delivery will be washed away as individuals look to rent out their systems and do so by undercutting all and sundry. Business is business I know but if we set a recognized pricing structure I believe we can all have an equal chance at benefiting from the initial industry demand for RED as and when deliveries start.

Just a thought,
Cheers,
Mark.

Mark, thats a good idea, but all we learned in the past is, that nobody will stay in the line. That´s a normal thing, because business is going cool in some companies, in others not. If the pressure is high enough, they will rent out it for less and for less. You will have different structures in different companies. there are companies offering services on weekend and 24/7 - some have a big team with well experienced people, but others are working alone and do not need a full paid rental. I think this is the same in every country and in every business...

[Sanjin Jukic]

Agree, a very good point CamDiver.

[Mark Thorpe]

ludmux,
Great points and ones I knew were coming. Whilst we can't always expect everyone to tow the line for the very same reasons you highlight I think there should at least be a standard rate for RED rentals etc, or at least benchmark guidelines for those of us who have never rented our gear out before. I understand that most who are willing to rent will be flexible when it comes to money wanted and money available from the client. I just hope they use their common sense and don't start undercutting to the extreme.

I guess we will only really find out as and when the whistle blows heralding the release of RED one.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Haha, and here at first I was hoping you meant: "Let's not lose that tight knit community and cut a great deal for all of our friends' rentals on REDuser.net"

Thanks a lot Mark... *Grumble* *grumble* *grumble*

[Mark B.]

I'm against the formation of monopolies and oligopolies. It hurts the general public, so I'd have to pass on price-fixing with other companies.

[Shawn Nelson]

I want to be able to rent out my Red for as much as a can (naturally) but after I saw www.IndieRentals.com release their rates of $495 (Day) / $1,475 (Week) / $4,950 (Month) for Red One and that they will actually ship you the camera, it seems I can never rent it out for higher than those rates. As such, I will probably rent it out for exactly those rates, or maybe slightly less.

BUT...I will probably never rent out my Red without myself or a very trusted friend/family member going as Red Operator. So, I will be able to bundle in an addditional fee for operator.

Why? Because I'd say for at least the first year, the vast majority of people wanting to use Red will have no idea on how to use it, so I will be equally renting out my Red and my ability to use my Red. Anyone who already knew Red and simply wanted my gear, would probably just rent it out of LA. Thus any Pacific NW people who want Red will also want me to be the operator. Now what to charge for me to be the operator? I don't know, I guess it depends upon how good I can get with it.

[Blaine Golden]

I'm against the formation of monopolies and oligopolies. It hurts the general public, so I'd have to pass on price-fixing with other companies.
I agree with this.


I want to be able to rent out my Red for as much as a can (naturally) but after I saw www.IndieRentals.com release their rates of $495 (Day) / $1,475 (Week) / $4,950 (Month) for Red One and that they will actually ship you the camera, it seems I can never rent it out for higher than those rates. As such, I will probably rent it out for exactly those rates, or maybe slightly less.
Even IndieRentals is going to have a limited number of RED ONEs. People are going to want to rent the camera, if they can't get it in their needed time frame, they may be willing to pay more to get one within their time constraints. But don't forget, they're going to want more than just the body. They're used to renting a kit. You'll need to be able provide lenses, tripod, mattebox, etc.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I want to be able to rent out my Red for as much as a can (naturally) but after I saw www.IndieRentals.com release their rates of $495 (Day) / $1,475 (Week) / $4,950 (Month) for Red One and that they will actually ship you the camera, it seems I can never rent it out for higher than those rates. As such, I will probably rent it out for exactly those rates, or maybe slightly less.


You'll just have to do what everyone else does: sweeten the deal. Include things (like your own talents) that a pack and ship business can't. It's the classic boutique vs walmart scenario. I don't think charging a premium is going to be difficult at all. Especially since a lot of people renting aren't going to know/understand how a red workflow can efficiently manage.

In fact you can effectively rent yourself for $1000 a day and then say the camera comes free.

[Shawn Nelson]

...It's the classic boutique vs walmart scenario...

Yeah, exactly, and last i checked WalMart routinely crushes all the little boutiques

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Yeah, exactly, and last i checked WalMart routinely crushes all the little boutiques

Perhaps in the 90s. There has been a recent resurgence in the appreciation for quality.

[Steve Sherrick]

I think this has to be treated like any other business endeavor. You see what the market is, i.e. supply and demand, you determine your value as operator/dp/digital set technician, and you invest in ways that make profit. There's a whole lot to consider when renting gear such as the Red camera. Insurance, repair costs, etc. As long as you cover all your bases, you'll be in a good position to make some money with your camera(s).

Steve

[Justin Anderson]

I want to be able to rent out my Red for as much as a can (naturally) but after I saw www.IndieRentals.com release their rates of $495 (Day) / $1,475 (Week) / $4,950 (Month) for Red One and that they will actually ship you the camera, it seems I can never rent it out for higher than those rates.

somehow I doubt they can maintain those rental prices. Unless of course they just plan on renting out the camera and a battery with everything else extra. :confused:

[Bret Weeks]

And there's a good chance there won't be any available if you just need the to sub-rent the body- all or nothing is usually the rule- i.e.; no ballast or head only HMI rentals- you have to rent both to get one-

[Mark Thorpe]

Well in some regards I guess I'm in a pretty good position, or hopefully will be once I'm REDy to go. Working underwater really narrows down the competition and even more so seeing as I will know my underwater housing like the back of my hand. For the cost of a camera rental plus a small fee on top I will be looking to rent the camera and operator as a complete package. An additional fee for the REDCINE conversion to the required codec to top of the deal (in a perfect world) and things could get paid back pretty quickly or at least lets hope so.

Cheers,
Mark.

[Rob Lohman]

Price-fixing is actually illegal in some places (like mine). Make sure you're not breaking any laws!

[Dominic Jones]

I think price-fixing is illegal almost everywhere, at least as far as the "western world" is concerned...

Certainly also true in the UK and, I believe, all of the EU. I'm sure the US has similar restrictions.

That said, it happens all the time (as well as service-level fixing, such as banks all taking three days to "clear" a cheque even though it happens instantly over computerised transaction protocols, although I'm not sure of the legal status of this) - it's only if you get caught that it's an issue!

As another member posted previously however, as a good socialist I'm morally opposed to the whole concept!! :)

(That last statement probably guarantees I'll never get another American visa!!)

[Stephen Williams]

Price-fixing is actually illegal in some places (like mine). Make sure you're not breaking any laws!

Hi Rob,

I seem to remember a lot of price fixing in Amsterdam last year!

Stephen

[Stephen Webb]

I'd like to get an idea of what other people are charging and keep my own prices somewhere in line. This is obviously gonna be a bit different as rates are higher over here in the UK anyways, but just for a comparison I was thinking about pricing mine in line with Arri SR3 rental rates.

The IndieRentals pricing (which works out at about £300 a day) is a lot less than what I'd been considering.

[Stephen Williams]

I'd like to get an idea of what other people are charging and keep my own prices somewhere in line. This is obviously gonna be a bit different as rates are higher over here in the UK anyways, but just for a comparison I was thinking about pricing mine in line with Arri SR3 rental rates.

The IndieRentals pricing (which works out at about £300 a day) is a lot less than what I'd been considering.

Hi Stephen,

With the Red so well priced, I don't think many people will want to rent if the price for a body only, is more than £100 a day. If a camera can be bought for the rental cost covered by say 3 jobs, one would be foolish to rent. That is IMHO why there are so many resrevations!

Stephen

[Rob Lohman]

Stephen Williams: doesn't mean it's not illegal ;)

[Mark B.]

In regards to rental versus buying: a lot of people are going to want to rent rather than buy if they only plan on using the camera for one or two short productions. They also might rent if they need to get an occasional multiple-camera setup. Or, if their primary camera conks out and is in the shop.

But in any case, I'm not sure of how the rentals are going to work for the little guys because the official Red zoom lens isn't coming out at the same time as the body, and that would mean still-lenses for most of us... and would a renter be satisfied shooting with a breathing still lens? I'm not in a financial position to afford a non-Red cine lens. Well, actually, I can't afford a Red cine lens either but at least it's a step closer to my budget. So I'm not sure how I'd successfully rent out a full package. What kinds of other gear would they expect too? Lighting? Tripod? Follow-Focus? I'm curious what y'all think a package rental should include.

[chuck colburn]

It used to be, (back when) that rental houses based daily rental fees at one percent of purchase price of a given piece of equipment. I think $500.00 a day (34 days to recoup) is a bit stiff.

[Stephen Williams]

Stephen Williams: doesn't mean it's not illegal ;)

Hi Rob,

I will remember that next time I go shopping!

Stephen

[Scott Webster]

What kinds of other gear would they expect too? Lighting? Tripod? Follow-Focus? I'm curious what y'all think a package rental should include.

Lowkus, there are so many ways to package the Red that one kit is certainly not going to fit everyones needs. Below will give you an indication of how our company would package the Red based on our experience with HD drama and digital features. Please bear in mind that NZ budgets are miniscule compared to US/UK and our crew sizes are smaller. We are use to doing more with less and the size of our industry means that we often can't support some of the more high end accessories, Cine-tal monitors etc.

Red One CINE-STYLE Production Kit
Red One Camera
RED Viewfinder
RED LCD
RED Cage
Red Rails
Red Drive x3
Aja Down Converter
4-6x Lithium 90Wh Ion V-lock batteries and charger
AC-DC 12 volt Power Supply
Sachtler Video fluid head (Dop's choice 18, 20, 25, 60)
Ronford Tall legs & spreader
150mm Low legs
150mm Hi Hat
Red Zoom 18-85mm (Subject to availability or Angenieux-Cooke etc)
Red Prime Set (Subject to availability or Zeiss-Cooke etc)
Preston MicroForce digital zoom controller
Arri MB18 Matte Box
Filter package (Dop's choice)
Arri FF3 follow focus rig
Panasonic 17" HD-SDI LCD monitor with built in waveform.

Once again I'm not suggesting this fits everyones needs but works with our existing inventory to provide an entry level cine production kit.

[Stephen Webb]

Hi Stephen,

With the Red so well priced, I don't think many people will want to rent if the price for a body only, is more than £100 a day. If a camera can be bought for the rental cost covered by say 3 jobs, one would be foolish to rent.

Stephen

The problem is it has to sit within the market at a price point that's not just determined by the cost of the camera, but the cost of "similar" products around it. And at a £100 p/d, it'd have to hire for about three months to break even (my jobs last days)! I don't think pricing the body at the same rental rate as a Z1 is quite appropriate given the differences in cost anyway.

I was thinking of cost of a complete package btw - and as Red will have 35 rather than s16 lenses that would actually push the rate up (A Cooke 18-100 from Arri is £260 p/d).

[Stephen Williams]

The problem is it has to sit within the market at a price point that's not just determined by the cost of the camera, but the cost of "similar" products around it. And at a £100 p/d, it'd have to hire for about three months to break even (my jobs last days)! I don't think pricing the body at the same rental rate as a Z1 is quite appropriate given the differences in cost anyway.

I was thinking of cost of a complete package btw - and as Red will have 35 rather than s16 lenses that would actually push the rate up (A Cooke 18-100 from Arri is £260 p/d).

Hi Stephen,

The Z1 has a life of 3 years and has a lens, recording system & batteries included. The Red should have a life of 10-25 years!

The Red for £100 does not have an eyepiece included! A high end Red camera package with Cooke S4 lenses will rent for £1000+ per day no question.

Stephen

[Stephen Williams]

Lowkus, there are so many ways to package the Red that one kit is certainly not going to fit everyones needs. Below will give you an indication of how our company would package the Red based on our experience with HD drama and digital features. Please bear in mind that NZ budgets are miniscule compared to US/UK and our crew sizes are smaller. We are use to doing more with less and the size of our industry means that we often can't support some of the more high end accessories, Cine-tal monitors etc.

Red One CINE-STYLE Production Kit
Red One Camera
RED Viewfinder
RED LCD
RED Cage
Red Rails
Red Drive x3
Aja Down Converter
4-6x Lithium 90Wh Ion V-lock batteries and charger
AC-DC 12 volt Power Supply
Sachtler Video fluid head (Dop's choice 18, 20, 25, 60)
Ronford Tall legs & spreader
150mm Low legs
150mm Hi Hat
Red Zoom 18-85mm (Subject to availability or Angenieux-Cooke etc)
Red Prime Set (Subject to availability or Zeiss-Cooke etc)
Preston MicroForce digital zoom controller
Arri MB18 Matte Box
Filter package (Dop's choice)
Arri FF3 follow focus rig
Panasonic 17" HD-SDI LCD monitor with built in waveform.

Once again I'm not suggesting this fits everyones needs but works with our existing inventory to provide an entry level cine production kit.


Hi,

That's what I call (With Cooke S4's) a hi end rental package.

Stephen

[Scott Webster]

Hi,

That's what I call (With Cooke S4's) a hi end rental package.

Stephen

The kit listed is particular to our client base, that is the minimum they would expect to work with. Hopefully if the Red is everything promised, we'll be able to add a set of Cookes to our inventory.

Others may pitch below that level and others above.

Red One Nikon CINE-STYLE Production Kit
Red One Camera with Nikon mount
RED Viewfinder
RED LCD
RED Cage
Red Rails
Red Drive x3 ( one on the camera, one on standby, one being offloaded)
4x Lithium 90wh Ion V-lock batteries and charger
AC-DC 12 volt Power Supply
Sachtler Video fluid head (18 or Cartoni-O'Connor equivalent)
Tall legs & spreader
Low legs
Hi Hat
Nikon Zoom
Nikon Prime Set
Matte Box
Red Rock Micro Follow Focus

[Gavin Greenwalt]

It's not price fixing if you don't talk to your competitors. Then it's just 'Market Research'. ;)

[Steve Sherrick]

Yeah, I'm not sure the 1% of the camera purchase price works. I think with this particular camera (again, assuming that it lives up to expectations, which I expect it will) the "correct" rate will be determined by:

1. Market. How many Red's available in that demographic.
2. Package. Camera only? Full package with all the accessories? Storage?
3. Operator included?

In a competitive market, some people may have to drop their rental prices way down in order to compete. In other markets, they may be one of the only games in town, and might be able to charge a premium.

I think some good points have been raised recently about rental procedures, expectations, etc. It's very helpful information. For those who might be considering the rental business for the first time, it might help prevent mistakes. So kudos to those who have chimed in on this and provided some great insight.

Steve

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I'm trying to market a package to student filmmakers and people with much less money for short films. I think the availability of this camera is going to open up to people who used to be shooting s16mm.

We're planning on offering

RED One body
Nikon F-mount
Set Nikon Zooms, f2.8 full range
Red Rails
Redrock Follow Focus
Hood
2x Mags
Tripod (Still looking)
MacPro with REDCine (specs permitting)

Plus me, the operator, to keep the insurance premium lower.

This will give them a HD or 2k end product, way better quality than if they shot film and got a crappy one-light SD transfer, and way cheeper than the HD best-light transfer. Plus we all remember taking 2 jobs in filmschool to afford 1000ft of film and not being able to shoot enough footage to finish the narrative properly. It blew.

[Bret Weeks]

Yeah, I'm not sure the 1% of the camera purchase price works...


Sorry, Chuck.

You are correct, Steve - The old 1% - (sometimes 2 or 3%) rule still only holds water with the purchase of equipment that isn't considered new technology - Tungsten Fixtures, 575W - 18K HMIs, Grip and the like. The average small to medium rental companies just can't afford a lower rate of return on sometimes monumental investments in new technology.

I think the package prices, like almost every piece of equipment in the industry, are going to be determined by 2 or 3 of the bigger LA and NY rental houses. Traditionally, the bigger houses are the first ones with the gear, set the number then the rest of the houses will follow suit immediately - big and small.... hence the near consistency of equipment rental costs from coast to coast in almost every rental house.

I've been on the rental side for the better part of my career (17+ years) in different sized shops in different sized markets and each house follows the others pricing, sometimes nationwide; While there isn't necessarily collusion to fix prices, rates are discussed amongst all of us.

However - competitive pricing in the rental industry for most houses is based on the discount provided to the rental customer - 10% - 40% off the standard published day rental price- and producers will push one house against the other until someone "Names that Tune" and gets the show- it's really rather ugly sometimes.

Personally, I hope we all demand a handsome rate for a new piece of equipment that is destined to change the way this tired old game gets played.

The body alone deserves to be a more expensive rental than a F-900 or Varicam based on image quality and format flexibility - but some are correct, based on acquisition cost, it probably won't command $1500 - $2000 a day... I expect our pricing to land somewhere between $600 -$800 a day, body only. Pricing it lower, in my mind, is just undercutting the market early to try to get ahead of the curve - big mistake for all of us.

If anyone is serious about getting into straight rentals- give me a shout and I'll give you a bunch of reasons not to :)

[Martin Ludwig]

I am sure, that all of you renting out their red´s need to have a long breath. I have the impression that there are some guys with no experience in the rental business and I can tell you that it will take some month to get in on the market and you will need some money to complete your system.
every customer wants to have a complete rental, so they are not interested to get the camera in south of the city, collecting lenses in the north and all other stuff like batteries, tripods in the east.

[Mark Thorpe]

Thats the very reason I posted this in the first place, to see what is involved in the whole rental process. Yes, sounds complicated which is why I will just be offering my cam for wet environment applications, preferably with me as the operator at a slight premium.

I hope others who were also as 'in the dark' as I was with regards to the whole approach to camera renting and the considerations to take have, as I have, learned from the incredible knowledge of individuals on this site.

Cheers,
Mark.

[RobRoySyd]

I work for a rental business and it's not for the faint of heart.
First off you MUST get your gear insured and that costs. The insurance that covers your gear almost certainly will not cover it when you rent it out. We pay roughly 10% of the value of the gear in premiums. If you don't rent something out a lot that makes it hard to make a dollar on the rental.

You really must have everything the clients might need. Someones said this before and I can only back that up. No one will run around town to rent bits from here and there...and then return all that stuff, making certain it goes back to the right place.

You need facilities to test the gear too, particularly with high end kit like RED and you need to be able to test the lenses. No one is going to admit they've knocked a lens out of alignment and you don't want to find out it's bung when the next user has his shoot ruined by it or a dead pixel or whatever. All the gear to do this, the space and the trained people to use it cost money.

And most importantly. Be aware there are organised crime rings out there targetting camera rental businesses. Trust no one, check bona fides to the nth degree and even if you've rented gear to them before still don't trust the buggers. One scam down here they created a legit looking business, rented a bit here and there and then rented a hell of a lot and loaded the whole lot into containers and sent it OS, never to be seen again. Well no, not quite, it's been seen still with the rental companies logos on it doing work in the middle east. Forget getting help from Interpol!

Certainly one thing RED and/or this site could address is having a register of stolen REDs.
Adding anything that makes it impossible to rebadge / de-indentify a RED would also be a help, heck even a GPS transponder, a hardware key to make it work, anything. Even a tag in the metadata that identifies the serial number of the camera that the recording was made from would be a help.

Also accept only payment by credit card, forget cash. CCs mean you can keep charging a rental fee until the card is cancelled or maxed out. If your camera gets nicked this can ease the pain a little.

[Roberto B]

cool your avatar robroy..

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I work for a rental business and it's not for the faint of heart....


I've heard a lot of wisdom like this. Thats why I'm sticking with being an "owner/op", rather than strictly rental, even if my clients really only need to rent it. Id rather be standing next to the AC as a "technician" than not be there at all. I figure it'll protect me from the worst of the worst, and it should give me a break on the insurance.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Trust must be earned. Rental biz doesn't really give you an opportunity to establish trust. If you have a large operation then the losses from your dealings with those unworthy of trust are an annoying cost of doing business. For an independent with basically one full kit the risk / reward ratio is tough.

My plan is that I will always go out with the rig but my participation will be scalable, to wit:

1) I show up with the camera (and support van with computers, monitors, etc) and help with the set-up, spend the rest of the day making copies/dailies/recycling mags and supporting the camera crew as needed with technical info on the camera, probably also manage video village. Basically DIT plus camera package.

2) I bring the camera (and van) and operate it (or DoP or AC). Supervise data management as needed. Can also fill out the camera crew as requested.

[mezmo]

Hi Blair S.P.
The van idea is good and essential for a film shot on location.
Road movie, interstate project. You could also roadcase and fly the
processing computer, set up in a hotel room and produce
dailies/backups from the days shoot at night.
Processing in the van may be a problem if the crew are constantly
on the move, a 2nd camera vehicle may be required.
_________________________________________
happy shootin Mezmo

[egproductions]

price-fixing is illegal and this would be considered it. Besides I would not worry about competition that have incedibly low prices. The demand will hopefully be high enough that more than 5 people will want cameras from indierentals. people will have to get it from other places and will be willing to pay the appreciated value of the camera. Hopefully for renties this will be a playstation 3 senario.

[Martin Drew]

The Red should have a life of 10-25 years!

Irony Stephen?

M

[Stephen Williams]

Irony Stephen?

M

Martin,

Betacam SP, Digital Betacam & (HD CAM almost) cameras have had a useful life of about 10 years. Don't you think its reasonable to assume Red will do better than that?

Stephen

[Ralph Oshiro]

Just my opinion . . .

IMHO, $500/day is too low (I get $450/day for my standard-def DSR450). RED should rent for NO LESS than for what a Varicam or HDW-F900 rents for a day--hopefully MORE. This is not "price fixing." This is a business model. We all invested in a dream, and had enough confidence in Jim's vision to put a $1,000 on our credit cards, even though a working prototype was still many months away. Those earliest in the pipeline should reap the most reward (they'll receive their RED camera months before non-reservation holders), because they took the most risk and had the most faith in RED, and in Jim's vision, early on. And remember, this pipeline could be quite long, so an early reservation means that you had the insight to see its potential--this, in and of itself, has INHERENT COMMERCIAL VALUE, and it's your right to be compensated for it! Those who didn't (I'm speaking of rental houses, and established DPs and shooters--NOT those of us who simply couldn't afford it), will have to pay what the market will bear.

Also, the rental rate for RED should have no bearing on its cost--it's irrelevant that RED cost only a fraction of those other cameras. RED should rent for what it can do--the things that no other camera on the market can do. So what if one rental company rents for $500/day? Have any of you ever dealt with low-ball rental clients? They're a NIGHTF----INGMARE! Preserve the price structure, retain only high quality clients, and reap the rewards for having the insight and wisdom to out-think the market and the industry. When RED starts shipping, and they become the most sought-after acquisition device on every stage in Hollywood, you'll thank me.

[Martin Drew]

Betacam SP, Digital Betacam & (HD CAM almost) cameras have had a useful life of about 10 years. Don't you think its reasonable to assume Red will do better than that?

Are you talking individual cameras or formats? I would be very impressed if a first generation RedOne camera had a rental life of 10 - 25 years, but I am certainly not complaining if it does. My suspicion is that technology will overtake it though before then, however modular and expandable it is. I just can't imagine that anyone considering rental is going to risk using those kind of time scales when working out the amortization of a bit of hi tech kit like this, even if hindsight proves them overly cautious.

The other significant factor is that the figures being discussed here relate to rental in the first year of the RedOne, when there may well be a lack of supply. There are too many unknowns at this stage to make any kind of objective predictions about demand, especially since I changed to a fine meshed tea strainer! It could well be that the market will stand some premium pricing at this stage though. I think this is why a lot of people are scratching their heads trying to decide what is a good price point. It isn't a straight forward proposition and you can't necessarily extrapolate a price from the current rental market... at least not yet.

Just my thoughts.

M

[Martin Drew]

Just my opinion . . .

IMHO, $500/day is too low. RED should rent for NO LESS than for what a Varicam or HDW-F900 rents for a day--hopefully MORE. This is not "price fixing." This is a business model. We all invested in a dream, and had enough confidence in Jim's vision to put a $1,000 on our credit cards, even though a working prototype was still many months away. Those earliest in the pipeline should reap the most reward (they'll receive their RED camera months before non-reservation holders), because they took the most risk and had the most faith in RED, and in Jim's vision, early on. And remember, this pipeline could be quite long, so an early reservation means that you had the insight to see its potential--this, in and of itself, has INHERENT COMMERCIAL VALUE, and it's your right to be compensated for it! Those who didn't (I'm speaking of rental houses, and established DPs and shooters--NOT those of us who simply couldn't afford it), will have to pay what the market will bear.

Also, the rental rate for RED should have no bearing on its cost--it's irrelevant that RED cost only a fraction of those other cameras. RED should rent for what it can do--the things that no other camera on the market can do. So what if one rental company rents for $500/day? Have any of you ever dealt with low-ball rental clients? They're a NIGHTF----INGMARE! Preserve the price structure, retain only high quality clients, and reap the rewards for having the insight and wisdom to out-think the market and the industry. When RED starts shipping, and they become the most sought-after acquisition device on every stage in Hollywood, you'll thank me later.

I am not sure if I agree there is a deserved rental price based on the confidence of reservation holders or how wonderful the camera is, any more than there is a fair rental price based on the cost of the kit, but I do agree that it should be what the market will bear, that is how capitalism works. If there are too many people renting out the price will be low, if there are too few the price will be high.

M

[Ralph Oshiro]

I am not sure if I agree there is a deserved rental price based on the confidence of reservation holders or how wonderful the camera is . . .I just thought $500/day was bit low, and I didn't want to encourage people to begin thinking they had to low-ball their rental rates just to make their Visa payments. I think in general, were all in agreement here.

[Ralph Oshiro]

It could well be that the market will stand some premium pricing at this stage though.Again, I think were all in general agreement here. But I wouldn't necessarily characterize a "Varicam" rate," or an "F900 rate" as a 'premium' for what RED has to offer. Since I often tend to be too generous when setting my own rental rates, I just want people to get their fair market value for their RED investment, and not be too "bashful" about charging a decent rate.

[Finner]

I have mentioned this before but I feel the camera will rent for what it will rent for. We will find out what people are willing to pay as RED productions/commercials/music vids begin to hit the market. I don't care what anyone says they plan to rent their cameras for if they say there cameras rent for $500 a day and they are rented all the time and they have production companies saying they will pay 1,500 a day for the camera rental will go up in price. If they can't get the camera off the shelves they will rent them for $250 a day.

It's simple supply and demand and I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long. I know what price I wish to rent my camera for but I don't think anyone can judge what they will rent for until supply and demand is seen.

[donatello b]

"the rental rate for RED should have no bearing on its cost--it's irrelevant that RED cost only a fraction of those other cameras"

why not give what RED gave us = RED outperforms a cineAlta and RED did NOT price their body above a cineAlta ... based on where RED would fit into the market RED should sell for 200K+ ? ... the only way we can all afford a RED is because it is priced in line with it's cost NOT where it would be priced according to other camera's ...

IMO 500 day is fair price for body only - now add on the extra's - recording media , EVF, batts , redrails, lens etc it all adds up ....
from my POV - at most i only need a 2nd camera maybe 10 weeks a year = 3day week = 1500 X 10 wks = 15,000 = daaaaaaa! why rent - just buy another one instead of paying rental .... if RED body is priced too high RENTERS will figure they can buy the body ( rent lens) for the project then sell it after production and put that $$ into post = savings ....

[Ralph Oshiro]

. . . why not give what RED gave us = RED outperforms a cineAlta and RED did NOT price their body above a cineAlta ... based on where RED would fit into the market RED should sell for 200K+ ?Well, that's certainly up to each individual owner's preferences, and yes . . . why not? RED is so revolutionary in both its capability and its pricing, that the creation of RED enables NEW business models . . .

Owning RED allows . . .

1. A DP trying to break into the business to offer his camera up for rental with the condition that he/she can tag along to DP the project. In this case, RED is his ticket "in." A combination of achieving a valued career goal, and some return on his investment, allows this owner to negotiate the "rental" rate quite liberally. The result: the producer gets a potentially below-market rate on a revolutionary image-making machine, and the owner gets his big break.

2. Similarly, a RED owner can add the condition of rental that he be hired as the DIT for the show. Again, the producer may achieve a negotiated rate on the "rental," and the owner begins (the eventually) lucrative career as a DIT. Another member here had already mentioned this strategy. Yet another door "in."

3. The true believers among us may offer below-market rates simply to evangelize the market about the superior benefits and capabilities of RED. A compelling marketing strategy for RED equity partners, but perhaps, not the most financially rewarding tactic for the owner. But he'll have that "good" feeling inside that will come from "turning" arrogant nay-sayers and old-school DPs who continue to dis the product.

4. And lastly, one can attempt to rent at HDCAM-esque market rates for comparable cameras (of which there are none), make his/her ROI and breakeven super-fast, and begin earning a comfortable profit from his investment so that he can buy more RED stuff!

I know you all know all this already, I just wanted to post that I have all of these reasons to buy RED too. I want to DP super-cool RED projects. I want to give it away to support the "revolution." I want to make a lot of money to buy more RED stuff. I want it all!

[Stephen Williams]

Are you talking individual cameras or formats?

M

Hi Martin,

Individual cameras!

I think I must be too much of a Fanboy!

Stephen

[Sanjin Jukic]

I have mentioned this before but I feel the camera will rent for what it will rent for. We will find out what people are willing to pay as RED productions/commercials/music vids begin to hit the market. I don't care what anyone says they plan to rent their cameras for if they say there cameras rent for $500 a day and they are rented all the time and they have production companies saying they will pay 1,500 a day for the camera rental will go up in price. If they can't get the camera off the shelves they will rent them for $250 a day.

It's simple supply and demand and I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long. I know what price I wish to rent my camera for but I don't think anyone can judge what they will rent for until supply and demand is seen.

Finner, I agree and share the same opinion.