Need Some Business Advice....

[Tom Lowe]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3330/3197648330_0322e97077.jpg

I am currently embarked on shooting a 45-min film called THESE SHORT DAYS. It's a BARAKA-style, non-narrative film showcasing the American Southwest. It's a mixture of 20 mins of timelapse with 25 mins of live-action shots.

What is the exact length needed for a one-hour American TV show, if I was hoping to sell it to Discovery HD or National Geographic, etc? 48 minutes?

Also, if I am fortunate enough to "sell" it to a channel like PBS or Discovery, how much money might I expect from a deal like that, and what kind of deal might I hope for? Do I just get a one-time payoff, or am I licensing the film to them? Can I expect any residuals?

Thanks very much for your advice!

[John Logan]

Typical program time for a one hour show is usually around 43:00. PBS is probably longer.

[Mark L. Pederson]

Tom -

I look forward to seeing this!

I dunno .... "a BARAKA-style, non-narrative film showcasing the American Southwest" screams BRANDED ENTERTAINMENT opportunities to me.

I can just imagine a series of screenings/events in DRIVE IN MOVIE THEATERS in the Southwest courtesy of our AUTOMOBILE and BEER sponsors ....

[Tom Lowe]

Mark, want to become my business advisor? :)

Hahhaha.. I'm so clueless.

[Rudi Herbert]

Tom,

I've been out of the documentary realm now for a couple of years, but it was my bread and butter for a long time, until the influx of reality shows came sweeping through the landscape, destroying the aesthetics and sensibilities many of us worked so hard to honor and preserve...anyway, it gets worse :-)

Standard length nowadays for one hour is anywhere between 38 and 44 minutes, with 42-43 being the norm. I'm sure many others here have had different experiences to mine, some better, some much better, but having been at both the best possible scenario I could have hoped for and the "you gotta be kidding me if you think I'll sell this program for that miserable amount" ends of the stick, I have a fairly good idea of how it goes. First of all, one offs are very hard to sell nowadays, especially for Nat Geo or Discovery, both of whom do all their purchasing based on daily and weekly time slots. Nat Geo might be a bit more lenient since their international lineup is much more loose, but when they buy for their international subsidiaries, they really pay nickels, especially to first timers. A one hour piece might command anything in the $5-10K range normally, and they usually ask for perpetuity rights, or 3,5 or 10 years, and in the latter case, expect prices to be at the low end. It sucks, I know, but that's how it is. Discovery is much more prostituted nowadays, and would offer you, if at all, anything from $3-6K for perpetuity rights. F...k them, I haven't sold anything to them in a long time and won't even try again.

However, in your case, where I see a better avenue for you is with PBS, which won't offer you much more money, but will be more flexible in negotiating rights so that you can actually own your program back one day. If I were you, I would concentrate first on HD Network, HD Theater and the few other networks that showcase HD all the time. You might get a much better deal with them. Also, one thing a friend of mine did which worked quite well was to hit the TV manufacturers, where he ended up selling a time lapse piece similar to yours to Toshiba for upwards of $200K! Even better, once he changed the music, the editing and the theme, he was able to sell the "new" program to a couple of other networks. One thing is for sure, entering the doc in as many festivals as possible would generate momentum for you and facilitate sales, and an agent, believe it or not, can be a HUGE help. They take a cut out of "fortune" you'll get paid, but they have a much better chance of getting it sold than you. Then again, you can go at it yourself, and then the festival route works great, but once again, get your rear end to NAB with a bunch of blu ray copies and pitch the footage (the "footage", not the documentary) to all the manufacturers, you'd be surprised...Food for thought I hope.

Good luck,

[Tom Lowe]

Rudi, thanks. I am making a couple thousand dollars USD a month just off the stock footage at Getty right now!... so there is no way I would "sell" anything for the kind of prices you mentioned for Discovery, etc. Can you explain better what you mean by "buying" stuff for $3-$6K? Those numbers seem like a total JOKE to me. It seems ridiculous. I hope I am misunderstanding you.

I need to make at least $200K USD on this by the time all is said and done. :)

[Tico Llaurador]

Perhaps you should sell them the piece as a first installment in a series, so they can see it as a marketable "property." Then you could raise the ante a bit. Just a thought.

[Meryem Ersoz]

for starters, make a trailer and write an executive summary -- that is what most independent investors will find interesting.

here's a few places to shop those items...

http://wcsfp.com/index.php/2008/conference_overview/

http://www.jhfestival.org/jhsymposium/index.htm

the jackson hole symposium was a great place to meet and speak with acquisitions editors. because the conference is new, it is relatively small and easy to get in direct contact with them. even if you don't sell it there, you'll learn everything that you need to know to make it sell-able. the more acquisitions editors that you can speak with, the better...

most TV broadcaster have pretty strict requirements for the formatting of their programs, and they are typically more interested in series programming than in one-offs. non-narrative is an especially hard sell. here's a link worth a look:

http://producers.discovery.com/

[Mark L. Pederson]

First go out and shoot some amazing stuff.

Then, cut a short teaser/presentation piece that speaks to style, tone and scope of the film. Maybe .... 5 minutes long and show it to everyone you know in the biz for advice and feedback.

Prior to editing the whole film, you could approach a KNOWN musician and/or band with a following/fans - ideally from the Southwest - that would be an artistic fit for your film - see if they are interested in creating ORIGINAL music for the film based on seeing your work. You could get lucky.

Sounds like the project is "self-financed" - so go out and shoot some wicked cool stuff.

[Greg M]

Rudi, thanks. I am making a couple thousand dollars USD a month just off the stock footage at Getty right now!... so there is no way I would "sell" anything for the kind of prices you mentioned for Discovery, etc. Can you explain better what you mean by "buying" stuff for $3-$6K? Those numbers seem like a total JOKE to me. It seems ridiculous. I hope I am misunderstanding you.

I need to make at least $200K USD on this by the time all is said and done. :)


Tom, that's not unrealistic. Typically though they are more interested in a series rather than a single episode. I would suggest you spend some time on a treatment and try to sell it in advance.

[Tom Lowe]

First go out and shoot some amazing stuff.

.............

Sounds like the project is "self-financed" - so go out and shoot some wicked cool stuff.

Heh... yep! I've got the "go out and shoot" part covered. I have arranged my finances so I can spend the next 8 months doing nothing but shooting!

[Frank Weeks]

Tom

The timelapse you have shown here on reduser have been first rate. Best of luck.

[jpp]

The "hour" is longer at PBS -- is it 57 minutes and change? -- and you'd probably be dealing with the individual affiliates since, as far as I know, there's no existing umbrella program for what you propose. You typically sell them two screenings. The money isn't good. Nowhere near $200K. And, frankly, it sounds like a hard sell, for PBS. They screen very little non-corporate, non-institutional work. Unless maybe the affiliates out west are more venturesome(?)

Have you looked at ITVS? Don't know what they're doing lately, or if they'd finance this sort of thing, but it might be worth a try, at least once you've got some footage. If they're involved you'd get both money and screenings. Seems unlikely (they go for "social relevance" and "community empowerment") but you never know...

Mark Pederson had some good suggestions about music and, believe it or not, Philip Glass is approachable and has been known to work on low-budget productions, if he likes the stuff -- if that's the sound you want.

[Mike Prevette]

This is going to sound pessimistic, but I really think a Barraka style film with no story, interviews, etc is going to be a very hard sell to any network that has advertisers. PBS more likely, but still tough sell.

In addition to all the ideas mentioned here. I'd look into a PBS station that partners on a lot of productions. KCTS is a good example. Years and years ago they got into HD (the first in the states i believe) and they started to make their "over" series (ie "over Washington" over japan" "over BC"). Basically these are loos documentaries about areas with beautiful HD aerial footage underneath narration. They sell the DVD's like hotcakes at PBS stores around the country.

http://www.channel9store.com/products.asp?dept=19

Best of luck, and congrats on the beautiful footage man!

[Joel Kaye]

Can you explain better what you mean by "buying" stuff for $3-$6K? Those numbers seem like a total JOKE to me. It seems ridiculous. I hope I am misunderstanding you.

It is what it sounds like.

For festivals I think you should cut a much shorter version - 5 to 12 minutes because that's what they program for shorts. They have to knock out a bunch of filmmakers to program 40 minutes so they don't.

Ambiance DVDs for hotels, winebars etc? Keep your rights, for sure. In a few years we'll have paper thin hdtv's that will replace paintings and photographs in upscale places and eventually homes. Your content will be perfect for that.

[P Andersson]

the places you hang out late at night are amazing - love the desert and the mountains at night - it makes you feel amazing - don't forget to do some impromptu "interviews" with yourself on location where you can either explain what you are doing in a kind of behind the scenes kind of way - or just talk about whatever comes to mind

this could be a 2 - 15 minute companion piece to your film

[Andrew Walker]

Recently I've been thinking about doing something similar to what you were talking about Tom. I get hit up by people wanting to buy my timelapse on Blu-ray. But I'm waiting until I can get an hours worth of awesome footage. I'm about halfway there between the RED timelapse and the 40D timelapse. Its funny though, seems most of your stuff is of nature and most of my stuff is from the cities. Lately I have been spending time out in the desert getting shots here and there.

[Eren Ozkural]

This is such a timely thread.
My main base of experience is in Music Videos but it looks like I have the opportunity to start on a long haul non narrative documentary ala Godfrey Reggio/Ron Fricke.

These are some great tips, thanks to everyone who's been chiming in. Is there anyone with experience of selling non narrative documentaries in Europe?

[Tico Llaurador]

I have arranged my finances so I can spend the next 8 months doing nothing but shooting!

Wow, Tom... what's your secret?

:help:

[Tom Lowe]

Wow, Tom... what's your secret?

:help:

1. I'm not married and don't have a mortgage.

2. I can live in a tent and subsist on tuna sandwiches and Keystone Light for months at a time. :) :wink:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

1. I'm not married and don't have a mortgage.

Lucky man.


2. I can live in a tent and subsist on tuna sandwiches and Keystone Light for months at a time. :) :wink:

Tuna sandwiches sound fine... But Keystone Light?? Really?

I don't know what to think about the concept. I think it's really cool, I just don't know about the marketing. Then again, I'm baffled as to the success of Sunrise Earth. See, it can be done. All I can say is there's some good ideas and advice in this thread. Shoot lots of cool stuff. Seek critiques advice and even investors based off of a short teaser and other marketing you can do. In the end, if no one bites the hook, you can always sell the DVD / Blu-Ray yourself and through Amazon or other channels, push to distribute on iTunes, etc..

[Tom Lowe]

Tuna sandwiches sound fine... But Keystone Light?? Really?

I don't know what to think about the concept. I think it's really cool, I just don't know about the marketing. Then again, I'm baffled as to the success of Sunrise Earth. See, it can be done. All I can say is there's some good ideas and advice in this thread. Shoot lots of cool stuff. Seek critiques advice and even investors based off of a short teaser and other marketing you can do. In the end, if no one bites the hook, you can always sell the DVD / Blu-Ray yourself and through Amazon or other channels, push to distribute on iTunes, etc..

Well lately I have been splurging on Miller GD 64! Plus my tuna aint the cheap stuff either. It's the Genova-brand in olive oil, and I use expensive whole wheat bread, so I'm not really the cheapskate I pretend to be! :)

Yeah, I definitely appreciate the advice on this thread. At the same time, I have never been a person who cared about the odds. I would be shooting this stuff anyway, for no money, because I love doing it. And I think quality work can find a way to market, one way or another.

I really appreciate the very specific advice about possible running times, certain PBS affiliates that produce, potential overseas venues, etc.

As of now I am planning to cut a 9-min trailer at the end of the summer to serve as a mega-trailer/stand-alone short. The only trouble is, the song is a Pink Floyd live tune, so I very seriously doubt that Floyd would grant me a festival license. But you never know. I will send it to them with the request.

[Tico Llaurador]

Don't forget the local film commission and tourism boards, chambers of commerce, notable resident businesses, etc. of the places you'll be visiting for small cash grants and "assistance" (which may end up being more valuable than cash). Also you may explore possible sponsorships from equipment makers, travel companies, private organizations, etc.. Donations, contributions in exchange of credit, endorsements, what have you. Pass some of them Keystone Lights around and we'll keep feeding you ideas.

[Steve Sherrick]

Tom, PM me. I have a connection with Philip Glass.

[T. Glen Phelps]

Tom, you and I need to get together.

[M Most]

The only trouble is, the song is a Pink Floyd live tune, so I very seriously doubt that Floyd would grant me a festival license. But you never know.

Based on reputation, David might, Roger won't, and Nick won't care. But you're right, you never know - and if Live 8 could happen, well, just about anything is possible.

[Rudi Herbert]

Based on reputation, David might, Roger won't, and Nick won't care. But you're right, you never know - and if Live 8 could happen, well, just about anything is possible.

and none of them are actually easy to get in touch with, so good luck getting a reply from them. Rick was, God rest his soul, an avid internet user and would reply to e-mails within the hour sometimes. I once did a montage of underwater timelapses to "Echoes" and low and behold, I tried contacting them out of the blue and Rick got back to me immediately and gave me permission to use the song (under a ton of restrictions, but he did nevertheless) I corresponded with him afterwards through the years, he was a nice, nice, nice guy...

Anyway, onto something else Tom, getting an endorsement from somebody famous might open up doors as well. Once you have your 5-10 minute promo, try sending it to known people in and out of the industry, asking them for a quick "opinion" that you can put on the sleeve. How about Ron Fricke himself? How about Coppola, who is very approachable, very supportive of young film makers and originally executive produced Koyannisqatsi? Having that ubiquitous "...an inspiring piece of work..." and a known name below it on your promo cover WILL go a LONG ways in opening doors. Make sure that whomever you approach is known for being supportive of up and coming film makers, which many people in the industry are.

We got an endorsement for one of our underwater documentaries once from James Cameron himself, through a common acquaintance and figuring that given his passion for the underwater, he wouldn't mind seeing our piece. He liked it, gave it a short but positive review and with that, we sold it to Nat Geo, whom to this day, several years later, still has not shown it anywhere in the world!!! So go figure...more food for thought...

[ericyoung]

:biggrin: I like this thread's positivity (if that's a word?!) :biggrin:

[Christian Munoz D]

Tom,

Now is when I wish I can speak (write) better English. So I will do my best.

The following info is based on my experience with wildlife docs only.

The length of one hour nature documentaries for Nat Geo and Discovery are 51, 55, 58 minutes.
They will cut it down up to +/- 45 minutes if they have enough advertisers.
NEVER do a less of 50 minutes doc. It is almost impossible to sell…I have very good experience on that..trust me!!

“Blue-Chip” docs (One hour pieces) will sell from 150K to 800K depending how well known you are to the executives of the channels. Keep in mind that you will lose all the rights to your work.

Exhibit rights will go from 5K to 15K in the US and Europe. Also at the same time you can sell the exhibit rights to other venues from 1K to 5K. That one is better done trough distributors.

You can do a very good treatment and a 3-5 minutes pilot and send it to Nat Geo, Discovery, Smithsonian Networks or Thirteen WNET (PBS, Nature) hoping they will give you the chance to pitch your idea.

Here there is a couple of useful links:

https://www.ngcideas.com/

http://producers.discovery.com/

Also you can do my favorite, make your one hour doc, and submit it to the Wildlife International Film Festival, the Jackson Hole Wildlife Film Festival and/or the Wildscreen Wildlife Film Festival; go to this festivals and you will have the chance to talk face to face with the main executives of the channels, producers, distributors of the business. You will have the chance to go to BBQ, drink, expend a very nice time with all of them…..and make business!

Realscreen Submit in DC is becoming a good venue for non-fiction programming.

Probably the market for your project is not the American. European and Asian (NHK) channels are more likely to finance your project.

Tom,
Do you know the ABC/Nat Geo doc “The Rhythms of Life”?

This is one of my favorites Time lapse documentaries, unfortunately (for the ones that do not speak Spanish) the Spanish version is way better that the English one.

[Tom Lowe]

Christian, thanks for that valuable advice. Don't worry, your English is good!

I guess I will aim for a 50-min cut and start looking into submission guidelines for those nature festivals you mentioned. That sounds like a good place to start.

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

Mark, want to become my business advisor? :)

Hahhaha.. I'm so clueless.

This is why you need a producer.

Tom you create some stunning visuals. You need a producer who has equal talent in order to get the best sale.

You focus on the art. Let them focus on the commerce.

[Dylan Macleod, CSC]

This is going to sound pessimistic, but I really think a Barraka style film with no story, interviews, etc is going to be a very hard sell to any network that has advertisers. PBS more likely, but still tough sell.

In addition to all the ideas mentioned here. I'd look into a PBS station that partners on a lot of productions. KCTS is a good example. Years and years ago they got into HD (the first in the states i believe) and they started to make their "over" series (ie "over Washington" over japan" "over BC"). Basically these are loos documentaries about areas with beautiful HD aerial footage underneath narration. They sell the DVD's like hotcakes at PBS stores around the country.

http://www.channel9store.com/products.asp?dept=19

Best of luck, and congrats on the beautiful footage man!

I have to agree. Even Baraka had a message. It was more than a string of beautiful images. You should be thinking about what kind of message you'd like to convey.

Perhaps you are already thinking about this...

I also like the other suggestion of "interviewing" yourself. Keeping a video diary. You can talk philosophy or tech...doesn't matter. An unexpected thread might come out of that. Which you may or may not include - at the very least it will make an excellent supplement to the DVD!

[Christian Munoz D]

Christian, thanks for that valuable advice. Don't worry, your English is good!

I guess I will aim for a 50-min cut and start looking into submission guidelines for those nature festivals you mentioned. That sounds like a good place to start.

Tom, I just PM you the contact information of an Executive of Programming & Production of an important American TV network, he was interested in one hour pieces.

[Larry Gebhardt]

Wow...what a bunch of very thoughtful, useful, positive posts. You guys rock! This forum rocks!

Just had to say it.

Larry

[GlennChan]

Throwing an idea out there... maybe people would be interested in seeing your work on their cellphone as a video ringtone?

*A good chunk of the ringtone business is so sketchy...

[Eren Ozkural]

Hi guys, I would like to resucitate this thread for two reasons.

First of all, how's it going Tom? I'm sure that we'd all love to hear about how the film is going.

Secondly, it looks like the feature I mentioned a couple of pages back may indeed become a reality. We're in the earliest of stages, scouting locations, finding out who to talk to for their expert opinions on the subject matter, etc.

Does anybody here have experience or knowledge regarding selling a one hour documentary to any british or european broadcaster?

In short, the documentary is about architecture and nature reclaiming abandonned areas. At this juncture it looks liek it will contain a large amount of timelapse sequences.

Any advice and help will be MUCH appreciated. Thank you guys in advance.

[Tom Lowe]

Hehe, I never thought this thread would see the light of day again.

Good luck on that documentary, Eren.

My 50-min film "These Short Days" is still moving ahead right on schedule. I've been sticking to the plan developed on this thread and other threads here. I leave in about a week for another 3-4 months of solid shooting around the Sierras and the American Southwest. This fall, I'm thinking of cutting an 8-minute mega "fundraising trailer." I've got the perfect song picked out already.

My most recent "Learning to Fly" reel/trailer for "These Short Days" has racked up 150,000 views on Vimeo already, which is making me think I should have tried to make it more of a fundraising reel.

:cheers2::patriot:

[Eren Ozkural]

I'm very happy to hear that everything is going on track, Tom. I think that getting 150,000 hits on Learning to Fly WITHOUT the intent of making it a marketing piece will only speak stronger of the value of your film and the potential for it's audience.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for posting so candidly over here and for creating your own forums. Having shot timelapse for B-Roll on HDV and XDCAM EX cameras only, only now am I appreciating what I can do on the stills front.

Needless to say, I'm seriously considering purchasing the time machine and rotary table from Mumford. If im not too wrong, I could have a moco dolly for timelapses (incl shipping of parts, dolly parts, labour-I live in an apartment with no garage workshop, see) for under $2,000...

Best of luck to you Tom, in the mean time I'm off to do more research.

[Tom Lowe]

You could easily get a single-axis dolly made for 2 grand, including the time machine and one rotary, and then add more axes (like pan) as you need them. Just get a local blacksmith to help you with the dolly, since you don't have a garage. I have mine set up so I can easily put the mumford on my dolly, or snap it onto a tripod for simple moco pans.

[Eren Ozkural]

Thanks alot Tom, I reckon I owe you a beer :cheers2:

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Hey Tom... just a thought but whenever I go on vacation there are always stacks of God Awful, poorly edited, fly by night 'destination' DVDs to bad music. The "DVD postcard"

One good timelapse DVD showing off the SouthWest could also go into every little trinket shop from California to Lousiana and completely dominate the market.

They sell for like $25 a pop too and tourists suck them up like crack buying one for themselves to record their trip and send to their family and friends when they get back as souveniers.

[Joe G.]

Tom,

Have you considered calling up existing production companies and trying to get hired based on your samples? Numerous places already make this type of stuff, right?

[Eren Ozkural]

I don't know, something tells me that Tom would seem like the kinda guy that enjoys building something great from the ground up and enjoying the fruits of his labor. Purely conjecture, ofcourse.