4K BATTLE: Red , Phantom65 , Genesis and Dalsa

[najafi/didarfilm]

Hi all ,
it seems the battle is getting started:

RED : the most affordable with the most amount of features.
www.red.com

PHANTOM 65 : i believe the most powerful rival for RED , best suited for visual-effects and slo-mo cinematography.
www.visionresearch.com

Genesis : from the most famous camera producer , is gaining acceptability between DP's specially after shooting Mel Gibson's Apocalypto with it.
www.panavision.com

Dalsa Origin : the first 4k claimer , i believe is losing the battle becouse has not yet updated the features.
www.dalsa.com

what's your idea , who is the winner ?

i believe RED , becouse of it's marketing and management top strategies. but rivals are stronger , RED should speed-up, hmm ?

[Christian]

in the recent issue of American Cinematographer is an article about the Dalsa Origin. To make it short: The shoots (Commercial for Snickers amongst other) convinced the Cinematographers (Rolf Kestermann | David Stump, ASC). David Stump actually "loved the camera" and states that neither its size nor the needed tether bothered him. He also liked the optical viewfinder a lot.

Seems as if Dalsa is making some points...
never heard of the Phantom 65 though... will go on reading ;-)

[Emmanuel Cambier]

:o What is the Red camera??

sorry couldn't resist.

Emmanuel

[Milan Nikolic]

Russians have their own 4K camera. Check this out:
http://www.kinor.ru/products/camera/dc4k/

[Graeme Nattress]

Milan, I don't think it's a 4k camera though as you need an anamorphic lens to get the 4k. I think the real pixel dimensions are nearer the quoted "flat" 2400x1350.

Graeme

[Nick Shaw]

Yes, it does seem rather odd to claim in the specs that the resolution is suddenly magically greater when you use an anamorpthic (sic) lens!

Nick

[Milan Nikolic]

Graeme, you are right, the sensor is 2400x1350 with standard lenses. What this anamorphic lens do to make it close to the 4K?

[Graeme Nattress]

Well, when you record the image with a flat lens, the sensor gives you 2400 pixels across. When you use an anamorphic lens, it squashes the light into that 2400 pixels. When you stretch the image back out in post (ie, scale it) the image looks "right" when it's 4000 pixels across, but those extra pixels are just rough guesstimates of what it really would have looked like if you'd had 4000 pixels. I'd expect it to be a very soft looking 4k. Anyone got any images from this interesting camera??

Graeme

[Graeme Nattress]

najafi/didarfilm, why have you included Genesis which is a 1080p camera in the 4k "Battle"?

Graeme

[Nick Shaw]

It's a bit like cheap scanners, which often claim to have a resolution of "XXXX DPI (interpolated)"!

Nick

[Milan Nikolic]

Thanks Graeme on explanation!

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The phantom has an interesting dynamic range test... each square has a grid pattern. Is that in order to determine the point where the noise is effectively greater than the discernable image?

[Petr Dvorak]

Checkout kinor anamorph screenshot

http://www.ctt.ru/demo/anamorphic

http://www.ctt.ru/files/demo/anamorphic/anamorph_face.rar

[Petr Dvorak]

najafi/didarfilm, why have you included Genesis which is a 1080p camera in the 4k "Battle"? Graeme

DTTO!! :rolleyes:

[futurereduser]

Well this one time you can Honestly say the reason "Sony's" Upcoming 4k Camera was not included is because it's "Vaporware" : )

[MikeCurtis]

Of the SHIPPING cameras, Dalsa has the most impressive dynamic range that I've seen. They still have significant challenges in terms of package size, recording methodology (Codex is great but BIG), and their "4K or the highway" approach. Add in the fact many of their top end technical folks have left, and that does present them with quite a challenge. A shame, because the core imaging technology is fantastic - which may have been their downfall, when it seemed they set out to make a no-compromises imaging platform. The problem is, some compromises are necessary with current technology - uncompressed 4K is still pricey and cumbersome with current tech, the recording methodology is physically large, tethered and unwieldy, the camera at present is still quite large and heavy, and the price point for the entire package is still quite steep.

Technology is only as relevant as its price point.

-mike

[Graeme Nattress]

Checkout kinor anamorph screenshot

http://www.ctt.ru/demo/anamorphic

http://www.ctt.ru/files/demo/anamorphic/anamorph_face.rar

Thanks. Downloaded it, and I can't say that it looks very good. It's very noisy, you can see artifacts that look like they're from stretching horizontally. Also, the blur channel looks completely whacked. From that image, I'd not consider it to be usable quality at all.

Graeme

[Scott Webster]

Of the SHIPPING cameras, Dalsa has the most impressive dynamic range that I've seen. They still have significant challenges in terms of package size, recording methodology (Codex is great but BIG), and their "4K or the highway" approach. Add in the fact many of their top end technical folks have left, and that does present them with quite a challenge.
-mike

Yes reading the posts on CML it seemed there was an exodus of Dalsa staff.
Any reason given? Hmm I wonder where talented 4K camera engineers go to further their careers and knowledge...

[Jannard]

Seems to me that any comparisons made should include workflow. And prices. But it all is mildly hypothetical until every product begins shipping...

Jim

[Greg Lowry]

Seems to me that any comparisons made should include workflow. And prices. But it all is mildly hypothetical until every product begins shipping...

Jim

Indeed. The Phantom is a very interesting camera, but it's $150,000+ w/o lenses.

[Floris Liesker]

Haha, oh my god. I'm just recovering from some rolling on the floor.

Even people without any knowledge of a blue channel or interpolated pixels can spot artifacts from a mile away.
I was looking at the guy's face on the downloadable pic of that KINOR camera, as my wife walked by, saying: 'What's that? What disease does he have?'

[Justin Anderson]

regarding the Phantom, what's the advantage of shooting on medium format?

[Stephen Williams]

regarding the Phantom, what's the advantage of shooting on medium format?

Hi Justin,

Less DOF!

Stephen

[baro]

With a larger imaging area you can create sharper lenses (with the same DOF).

Maybe it is not that important with todays resolutions, but as pixel numbers will get higher the lens will be a limiting factor more and more. Especially with wide angle lenses.

[baro]

Also bigger pixels are better usually. Just like the picture quality difference between DSLRs and compact cameras.

[Tom Lowe]

I thought the Genesis only records 1080p, not 4K?

[Greg Lowry]

regarding the Phantom, what's the advantage of shooting on medium format?

The Phantom 65's pixel pitch is 12.5 microns (RED's is 5.4 microns, if I recall correctly). As a consequence of the extra photosite real estate, I have been told that the Phantom has a high ISO rating -- and it needs all the sensitivity it can get for high speed work (for which it is designed). The full size of the Phantom 65 sensor yields an aspect ratio of 2.2:1 (same as 65mm 5-perf film, hence the reason for the "65" in its name). So it's a "widescreen" or scope-equivalent camera that uses spherical lenses and requires very little cropping of the sensor. As for depth of field, Stephen is quite right. Less depth of field compared to the S35 format, but if the sensor has a higher ISO, shallower depth of field doesn't have to be problematic. Having said that, the shallow DOF characteristics of the 70mm epics of the past are quite beautiful -- just harder to get nose to ears in focus in a closeup.

[Petr Dvorak]

other Kinor demos
http://www.ctt.ru/demo/

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Checkout kinor anamorph screenshot

http://www.ctt.ru/demo/anamorphic

http://www.ctt.ru/files/demo/anamorphic/anamorph_face.rar

Yeah that's pretty much garbage. I would rather have a high quality 1080p or psuedo 1080p camera like the HVX if that's the best it can do.

[Jannard]

RED is not the only company pushing the envelop around the digital cinema table. We have great respect for the efforts of any company that truly wants to make a difference in the industry. I expect that all of us will improve our game as time goes on...

Jim

[Ben Feuer]

I had also heard that Genesis was 1080.

[Lucas Wilson]

I had also heard that Genesis was 1080.

The Genesis outputs 1920x1080 4:4:4. No mystery to it...

http://tinyurl.com/y3rjdl

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
Los Angeles

[Stephen Williams]

With a larger imaging area you can create sharper lenses (with the same DOF).


Hi,

Normally in my experiance lenses designed for larger formats do not resolve more. It's lenses designed for smaller formats that have that requirement.

I don't understand what you are saying about DOF.

Stephen

[yevlar]

I had also heard that Genesis was 1080.

The Genesis outputs 1080, yes. But is does have a Super35mm-sized sensor. So it offers the "possibility" of 2k or 4k in the future if it's outfitted with different hardware and DDR recording instead of the HDCAM-SR deck. As far as this discussion is concerned, it's not appropriate, but if Panavision develops it further, it could be a player.

[baro]

I don't understand what you are saying about DOF.

Let's say you create a 50 degrees field of view, f/2 lens for a small format camera. Let's say you increase the size of your lens so that it will cover the same 50 degrees field of view on your large format camera (the proportions of your lens remain the same). The angular resolution of your lens will be the same if you use it full open in both cases (let's suppose diffraction is not the limiting factor here).

Now in the second case DOF will be shallower. As a cinematographer you don't care what sized sensor is in your camera. Your only goal is to have a 50 degrees field of view and a particular DOF in your resulting image on the screen. To achieve the same DOF with you large format camera as that of the small format camera, you cannot use your large format lens full open. Let's say your large format imager is two times bigger than your small format imager. In that case you have to use your large format lens at f/4 to achieve the same DOF as with your small format camera at f/2 (the pictures from the two camera will look the same).

A lens gives you a shaper image usually if you stop it down. And if you design the lens from the ground up to be an f/4 lens, you can make it even sharper (for one you can use thinner lenses). Some large format lenses are f/10 at full open. They are sharp still they can give you quite a shallow DOF.

Now if you use a larger sensor to achieve shallower DOF, the above reasoning doesn't apply. This is why I said in my original post 'with the same DOF'.

[Evin Grant]

The striped RGB sensor of the Genesis would not be a good canidate for true 4K. Even though it has almost enough actual photosites it combines each RGB stripe into a sinle pixel line so it is designed to achieve something similar to a three chip camera, Vs. the Bayer pattern of the Red, which, like DSLR is designed to resolve it's actual resolution even if a small amount is lost in interpolation. Graeme, Stuart, is that right?

[najafi/didarfilm]

i added the Genesis becouse as they say it is 11mega pixel equivelant to S35

[Mike Devlin]

Independent of pixel counts the Genesis has shot some interesting films, which is what really matters. Check out the article in the January issue of American Cinematrographer regarding the shooting of Apocalypto. You rarely see a DoP happier with his gear. Apocalypto made extensive use of natural light and certainly has some very interesting imagery, to say the least. The good news is we have more tools to work with than ever, and RED raises the bar for all of us.

[Stephen Williams]

Let's say you create a 50 degrees field of view, f/2 lens for a small format camera. Let's say you increase the size of your lens so that it will cover the same 50 degrees field of view on your large format camera (the proportions of your lens remain the same). The angular resolution of your lens will be the same if you use it full open in both cases (let's suppose diffraction is not the limiting factor here).
.

Hi,

By increasing the size of the lens, the glass that the light has to travel through is thicker on the bigger lens.

All things being equal the smaller lens with less will be better quality, or am I missing something?

Stephen

[Graeme Nattress]

Evin, I'd totally agree. The RGB stripe pattern is not suited to the recontruction to a higher resolution. Indeed, the Genesis chip can be thought of as only having 1920x1080 macro pixels, where each of those macro pixels is made up of 6 mini pixels. The arangement of the minipixels is to get a 1920x1080 image, not a higher resolution one. IMHO, of course,

Graeme


The striped RGB sensor of the Genesis would not be a good canidate for true 4K. Even though it has almost enough actual photosites it combines each RGB stripe into a sinle pixel line so it is designed to achieve something similar to a three chip camera, Vs. the Bayer pattern of the Red, which, like DSLR is designed to resolve it's actual resolution even if a small amount is lost in interpolation. Graeme, Stuart, is that right?

[Finner]

Genesis totally belongs in this grouping. It may not be 4k but I have shot with it and it is the best combination of high digital quality and shooting friendly ease of use camera available right now. It is the digital camera setting the standard right now. I sure hope RED changes all that though.

[Stephen Webb]

Nah, I've shot with the D20 and it kicks the hell out of the Genesis!

[baro]

By increasing the size of the lens, the glass that the light has to travel through is thicker on the bigger lens.

All things being equal the smaller lens with less will be better quality, or am I missing something?

If the two lenses are identical (only their size is different) they will resolve distant objects with the same sharpness. Of course in one case the created image will be two times as big as in the other case, but they will look identical. That is because if you draw on a paper the pathes the light rays go in the lenses, you will have two identical drawings, only one will be bigger than the other.

[Stephen Williams]

If the two lenses are identical (only their size is different) they will resolve distant objects with the same sharpness. Of course in one case the created image will be two times as big as in the other case, but they will look identical. That is because if you draw on a paper the pathes the light rays go in the lenses, you will have two identical drawings, only one will be bigger than the other.

Hi,

That assumes the glass is perfect, and no light is lost in transmission.

Stephen

[nikolaiat]

About Kinor's it just might be a bit of pride Russian pride here. But actually having used the camera on some fx work it ain't that bad. First of all for that price you can put it under a burning car without worring too much :) and after some grading and playin with the gamma it looks fine. And it's been around for a year or two now. Having said that am still waiting for the RED.

[RobRoySyd]

There's a good read in the January 07 issue of the ACS mag with David Stump talking about the Dalsa camera, you could probably substitute the RED for a lot of what he's saying. The issue now (or shortly) will not be so much the camera but rather the workflow, there's no industry standard for recording or handling 4K in post.

[Graeme Nattress]

That's why we're as completely focussed on workflow as we are the camera. That's why we have REDCODE RAW and it's super quality / datarate point which allows you to work with 12bit RAW data without a refrigerator sized hard drive tethered to your camera. That's why we're building REDCINE.

Graeme

[Blair S. Paulsen]

The cost of film and the increasing quality of television cameras has made the switch to digital acquisition inevitable. It could be argued that the entrenched cultures in the industry have been the biggest brakes on the transition but there have been critical technical issues as well. I salute the approach the Red Leader and the Red Team have chosen both technically and in addressing the human factors.

It still floors me that Sony, Panavision and a host of other very successful companies were so unwilling to use a larger sensor. Going from a 2/3" to S35 sized imaging plane removes several key limitations. Going to a modern wavelet based codec that can acquire 4k@12bit at only 28MB/sec moved the day of reckoning for film up several years. Creating their own software solution in RedCine should allow relatively rapid adoption as it removes many of the barriers other solutions, even from the biggest vendors, have struggled with.

I tip my hat...

[Illya Friedman]

Of the SHIPPING cameras, Dalsa has the most impressive dynamic range that I've seen. They still have significant challenges in terms of package size, recording methodology (Codex is great but BIG), and their "4K or the highway" approach. Add in the fact many of their top end technical folks have left, and that does present them with quite a challenge. A shame, because the core imaging technology is fantastic - which may have been their downfall, when it seemed they set out to make a no-compromises imaging platform. The problem is, some compromises are necessary with current technology -
-mike

Thanks for the kind words Mike. It's true the Origin produces more dynamic range then any other digital cinema camera. It's also true that the camera has a larger profile than many motion picture cameras. Thankfully, the profile hasn't been an issue for any of the number skillful cinematographers, including several ASC members, who've shot with it.

The Codex is an AMAZING invention that gets better and better every month. Currently, it's the smallest rugged 4K field recorder in the world, by itself it's around the size of a larger Pelican case. The Codex has the ability to run a thin and super strong Infiniband cable for kilometers, without need of repeating. The unit can be powered for hours with a battery belt. The size of the Codex hasn't been a problem for anyone so far, and just like RED, the profile and specs will certainly change over time, I know it has already. I'm sure other new recording products are rapidly on their way to market. Including some of the promising products discussed in this very forum.

Regarding compromise- there are some things that are just not worth compromising. Many of my clients don't want to compromise their images- be it a shot during production, final color grade, or the camera and optics they use. For many DPs, an electronic viewfinder is a compromise. It may not be for some, but for many it is. Arri has also made a point to continue with their excellent optical viewfinders in their D-20 HD camera. Like our Origin, I know Arri made a lot of users very happy when they chose to include that one feature.

We at Dalsa are really glad that RED has jumped into the 4K pool with us, and that Sony has announced plans to do so in the near future. In the early days of the Origin there were a lot of slings and arrows from competitors- we still get some today, which is not all that dissimilar to the type RED has also experienced. The work RED is doing is good for everyone, especially the end user. Without yet shipping a camera, RED is pushing the envelope and innovation across the industry. That by itself is impressive, and I’m personally really looking forward to seeing the camera and the complete workflow for myself.

Mike, with all due respect, you posted some inaccuracies that I’m going to take a few moments to clear up. I appreciate your editorial of "4K or the highway", but that's just not correct. The Origin offers 4K resolution and a multitude of workflow and finishing formats, one of which is 4K. Origin proxy footage can be cut ON-SET in either Standard or High Definition. All that is required is a basic laptop with editing software, including Final Cut Pro.

Also, it's well known in some circles that there have been many changes recently at Dalsa, including employees. You are not privy to what happens internally at Dalsa. You do not know our employee structure, who exactly has been hired, resigned, or terminated. If you believe we have lost our "TOP technical talent" and this presents some kind of "challenge" to overcome, I suggest you call one of our most recent hires, President Rob Hummel (http://www.studiodaily.com/hdstudio/editorschoice/7328.html).

These are a couple good examples of some of the misconceptions about the Origin and Dalsa Digital Cinema floating around in online forums. In the past few months I've been so busy I hardly ever get the chance to post anymore (DVXuser, CML or elsewhere), so I haven't had the chance to chime in every time I see something erroneous. However, I've got some time tonight, so I'll do my best to clear a few things up about what Dalsa Digital Cinema does.

In addition to manufacturing and being the exclusive provider of the Origin 4K camera, Dalsa Digital Cinema is a rental house offering a massive range of products to the motion picture and television industry, with a fiercely loyal client base.

Speaking from my experience, many rental houses specialize in one corner of the industry, and their rental inventory and service reflects ONLY what is needed/used by that market. For example, Company A primarily rents equipment to indie filmmakers. They can provide some equipment to production companies and television (and do); however they specialize in providing support to indies, which accounts for more than 80% of their current business. Company B by contrast specializes in providing equipment to network "Reality TV”. Company B provides equipment to other types of productions, including independent filmmakers, but more than 80% is “Reality.” Neither of those companies can provide equipment or service very well outside of their comfort area. Indies often need a LOT of attention in prep and have a lot of questions, it’s incredibly difficult for Company B to offer that on-the-floor education and training to their clients during prep, particularly for the clients that need extra help. "Reality" shooters seldom require "camera 101" help during prep, but need a lot more attention in the middle of the night, and tons of back-up equipment and service. That level of 24-hour support is pretty much impossible for small operations, like Company A.

I know first hand because I've worked for both company A and B over the years. I’ve also sampled nearly every LA and San Francisco rental house while working as a cameraman (primarily in film) for over a decade.

In contrast to other houses, Dalsa offers a massive inventory of high-end products that can be used for multiple applications and only hires current or former working professionals for the entire rental staff. That means, chances are the person on the phone or the person who'll hand you a camera and BNC cable, can also operate that camera, build you that cable, explain to you the acronym of BNC, and knows the going rate for a box of T-stops.

Dalsa also takes rental service seriously, with more professional redundancy than I've ever seen. Dalsa of course offers 24-hour on-call service, and that service has a back-up service, which also has a back-up behind them- and everyone is knowledgeable. The level of service is staggering- far beyond the service of many higher profile companies I’ve had the displeasure of working with. Another time I’ll tell tales of being stranded with downed cameras while shooting on location, at night, in a far off land.

While the brain trust at Dalsa is substantial, it's impossible for anyone to know everything. Dalsa regularly brings in expert professionals in their respective fields to consult on projects. If I'm not mistaken that's how we came to develop out Dalsa Camera Slider and Pivoting Hi-Hat. Just two examples of items that are NOT available anywhere else.

Dalsa is unique because it provides such a large amount of equipment to such a wide range of productions and budgets. Dalsa primarily provide equipment and support to Features, TV Series, Commercials, Music Videos and Pilots. However, there is also a first-class staff/freelance production team that regularly provides support (partial or complete) and production services (crew, stages, insurance, catering...etc) all the way to completely "producing" a broad range of content for networks, production companies, and studios. Our name doesn't go on the job, but there's a good chance you've seen Dalsa supported professional content.

In addition to the Origin, Dalsa rents cameras ranging from inexpensive SD/HD cameras (like DVX100, V1U, HVX200, XLH1, SDX/HDX900) to more moderate priced cameras like the Varicam and F900, all the way up to the most elegant and powerful Viper Film Stream solution in the world- offering on set color management and recording to either disk or tape. As a side note many people don't know that Dalsa manufactures sensors for many of the finest imaging systems in the world, including the CCDs in the Viper. Like the Origin, the Viper's sensors employ Frame Transfer technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_transfer_CCD), in the realm of 1920x1080 cameras, the dynamic range is astounding. Frame Transfer sensors combined with a mechanical shutter can create motion blur that looks EXACTLY the same as film motion blur. Other common sensor/camera technology can have an extremely hard time creating film frame motion blur.

Dalsa's Los Angeles facility includes:

- 33-seat screening room complete with Christie CP2000 2K projector and THX certified sound system.

- Permanent green screen stage

- Private prep rooms

- Color Correction/off-line suite

- On site lens and electronics servicing down to a board level.

Dalsa's inventory includes:

- Huge assortment of optics/filters/35mm PL mount lenses: Arri/Zeiss Master Primes, Ultra Primes, Super Speeds, Cooke S4, Angenieux Optimo etc., P+S Technik Pro35mm adapters, Zeiss Digiprimes, Fuji E-Series Cine lenses and Cmotion lens control systems for every one.

- Jibs with remote pan/tilt heads- Dalsa is the exclusive provider of the 30'+ Gatorcam system

- Lighting: including EFP LED, Tungsten and HMI packages

- Cine/ENG Audio, including microphones, tape and hard drive based audio recording.

- Custom equipment racks, fiber systems and wireless video transmitters and receivers

Hope this helps,

I.

Dalsa Digital Cinema