The Schedule...

[Jannard]

There has been some concern about how much we knew about the delay and when. This is the history.

We have had a comprehensive schedule from day one. It has been updated everytime we got new news, met a milestone and received confirmed bids from suppliers.

We had so few setbacks early that we started to feel certain that we would have no trouble meeting our schedule targets. In early April (right at NAB), things began to change. We had a surprise failure in one of our production boards. What we thought would be a quick fix turned out to require a re-design and re-spin. As soon as we realized this we posted the "Engineering Delay". After NAB we also got bad news from two of our suppliers. These suppliers were thought to be completely reliable and bulletproof. But they delayed their schedule to us in a dramatically negative way. Given that they are two of a hundred, you would think it would not be a big deal. But every supplier is critical. Miss one part and you/we are screwed. We have since sought out multiple suppliers on every critical part. But the damage to the schedule was done.

I expect that we will have a full report of our situation on or about June 15th. I do not want to publish another shipping schedule without a pretty clear belief that we can make it. But this is a very complicated and difficult project. You can't get "lucky" in a revolution.

I hope that everyone will feel some comfort that we are being open and transparent. If there is good news... we are quick to tell you. If there is bad news... we are quick to tell you.

Just remember that a schedule is a PROJECTED ESTIMATE of how things are going. If we were done, it would not be called a schedule. We are here to answer questions. We have not disappeared when the going gets tough. Anyone who is nervous always has the option of getting their deposit back. You have my personal guarantee that your deposit is safe and secure.

Any other questions about the schedule should wait until mid-June.

Thanks for your support and your patience.

Jim

[Brook Willard]

Thanks for the update, Jim. Good to know. :)

[Joe Aurili]

The constant updates are awesome. There is little more irritating to me than when a company sets a date for a release, and then never follows up with any news when they are late, or worse cancel. I have been waiting for one camera that was set for release almost a year ago, and still no word.

[Steve Freebairn]

Thanks for the update. It is nice to have the project lead be so personal on the forums.

[Sean Michael Johnston]

Thanks

[Bruce Allen]

Good luck, Red folk and don't worry - you still seem like a decade ahead in terms of price/performance. And the open information exchange is part of it. Thank you!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Shawn Nelson]

Thanks Jim, I appreciate it.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Always good to hear from you guys. We're all on the edge of our seats, good luck!

[Alex Boothby]

Damn that Jay A Kelly and his prescient 5 week prognosis... :biggrin: Thanks for explaining things Jim. Much appreciated.

[Emanuel A.]

Just remember that a schedule is a PROJECTED ESTIMATE of how things are going. If we were done, it would not be called a schedule.

(,,,)

Thanks for your support and your patience.

JimYou could not be more sure of that. :)

We all will take benefit of this project achievement.

[Ivan G]

Well, I don't mind seeing some new 4k footage while we wait :biggrin: Jim, you probably wanna crack me over the head for requesting such. I watch the PJ 30sec clip everyday. I guess it's another way of keeping the wolves calm.... June 15th it is!

[IAN SUN]

Total confidence here.

[Greg Lowry]

What RED is experiencing is common to many (if not most) innovative technology projects, especially those that are fast-tracked. Kudos to Jim for being so upfront in his explanations. Delays are usually viewed as the enemy to such projects, but frequently a delay provides the time to rethink other aspects of the product and results in more breakthroughs and incremental improvements. Best wishes to the RED team.

[C.H.Haskell]

Yeah Yeah Jim we are with you...all the way. BUT, I am with Reno on this...some new PJ Crossing the Line footage would hold us over until further notice. ;)

Haha…wishful thinking?

[Alexander Nikishin]

Jim, you're the one doing us a favor by creating the RED ONE. My thoughts were best said in a post on DVXuser about a year ago.....06-10-2006


Honestly, if the footage from Red delivers what it should, I could care less if Jim ships Red later than its scheduled release date.

I would be soo thankful that he has given us the opportunity to shoot with such a revolutionary camera that I could care less about delays.

And to follow....


Mr. Blonde... can you stick around? If we ever fall in a hole I might need you to re-post this. :-)

Your wish is my command.

[Jason Francois]

I still can't believe that Jim and the RED team are so open with what's going on. I can't even imagine how priveledged we will feel a few years from now to be privy to so much.

Thanks Jim et al

[brandon thomas]

i can't afford one, but maybe... just maybe by the time it ships i'll be able to get one!

[Steven M. Bailey]

Atleast you keep posting modifications, modular accessories, new handle designs, and a hope for a brighter 4k future.

I know first hand that suppliers can be hard to deal with so Good Luck and Thankyou for having the marbles to come out and level with us.
:shiftyph34r:

Steve Bailey

[martinnoweck]

I was taking part in a HD workshop this winter, one evening of this workshop ARRI was presenting their D-20 ... and the guy presenting the D-20 said, that relating to their sensor they are completely dependent on some independent supplier... happens everywhere.

Thanks for the update,
Martin

[Corrado Silveri]

Don't worry Jim. We can wait. And thanks for you presence here.

My unique worry is that I can't (anytime soon) smash my camera on the face of some denigrators...

Btw, that time will come...

[terrorshockfilms]

OK lets hope everything goes well. Anyhow, I hope this problem with the supplies wont lead to shut the project down. I hope it does not get to that point.

[Damien Molineaux]

Thanks for the update.

Waiting while knowing is ok.

Good luck with those suppliers.

Cheers,
Damien

[Mardi_Gras]

It's nice doing business with you, Mr Jannard. Thanks for the upfront update.

[Hrvoje Simic]

Thank you for sharing. Really appreciate it.
We're still with you.

Maybe designing future RED stuff can help you in relieving that wait related stress...:whistling:

[johannperry]

Don't worry....be Happy.

[Michael Ragen]

I can wait. We have altered our plans to work with the schedule... for the better in the long run. But I promise you if you post 30 seconds of the dogfight footage I can sell 3 or 4 more cameras for you... And if it was 1080p maybe 5 or 6 cameras...

Just a guess, but maybe some of the features that weren't going to be enabled right of the bat will be ready in some of the early cameras because of the delay? If not, it's all good, I just wantz me some 4k Redcode Raw action!

ps- I have a good friend that purchased a 65mm movie camera a few months ago that hasn't used it yet because of the film costs. He also owns 3 35mm movie cameras, about 8 16mm cameras, and God knows how many 8mm's. All he talks about is Red. He is working on getting the funds together...
This guy is a film junky that can hang with the best of 'em, but he understands and respects the benefits of digital.

[Martin Drew]

Thanks for the info Jim, I am happy to wait as long as it takes to get it right. Maybe with all this spare time on your hands waiting for suppliers, you can dream up a "Crossing the Line" topping event for IBC.

M

[Craig Bowman]

Thanks for the update Jim. I'm in absolutely no panic whatsoever. I've always said to take your time. Every day delayed brings us one day closer to the day when you'll reveal the prototypes of the 4K displays and nearer to the completion of all the lenses.

You showed everything working at NAB. What more could anyone ask??

[Keith Nealy]

Thanks for the update, Jim.

It's time to kick ass and take names.
We'll still be here when you get done.

[PaulClements]

Thanks for the info Jim, I am happy to wait as long as it takes to get it right. Maybe with all this spare time on your hands waiting for suppliers, you can dream up a "Crossing the Line" topping event for IBC.

M

I'll second that, perhaps you can get a clip from "Wanted" to show Red in a an actual release and how well it's working.

Thanks for the update Jim!

[HD Hildebrand]

You can't get "lucky" in a revolution.

Jim

Yeah, I heard that interview. Don't they also say "luck" is a just another word for a lot of hard work.

[Stephen Gentle]

Good luck Jim! I too would love some more of 'Crossing the Line'!

-Stephen

[dalemccready]

I just have to add my support Jim. i'm really excited about the camera and what it means to my future work and I'm perfectly happy to wait for you to be happy with the camera.

Cheers again and thanks for the information.

[Álex Montoya]

Good luck Jim! I too would love some more of 'Crossing the Line'!

Count me on this. 1920*1080 if possible.

[Clayton Harper]

Support.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Great to hear the truth, Jim! Thanks!

[Blue]

On yer Jim.

Thanks for your candicity.

There. Poof! I just created a word. Easy as that. Watch it now appear in the dictionary above a photo of the good man.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Jim. I have a great understanding and patience of the schedule situation.

[Martin Jäger]

absolutely cool with me. thanks!

[ericyoung]

On yer Jim.

Thanks for your candicity.

There. Poof! I just created a word. Easy as that. Watch it now appear in the dictionary above a photo of the good man.

Isn't there already a perfectly good existing word: candidness. :excl: :biggrin:

[Seth Larney]

Thanks for the update Jim, much appreciated.

[Steve Gibby]

We are all professional communicators, and good communication is the heart of the motion media business - visual, sound, and written. IMO RED has earned a grade of "A" for their efforts in communicating regularly with us through all these months of product development.

Limbo is stressful when planning our future projects, but RED has consistently included us in the design process, and updated us on its progress. Luck is the point at which preparation meets opportunity. RED was prepared and seized a significant opportunity - but 3rd party suppliers are always the "X factor" that can delay a technology project.

Thanks for the ongoing communication Jim. It's much appreciated. I trust that RED One will be finished and deliver when it meets your quality control standards. I'm not only OK with that - I expected that. I have 100% confidence in RED delivering the camera system, lenses, and accessories when they're ready - and trust that they will be top quality. As one of the guys who will first put a RED One camera system on the set/in the field, I appreciate that your quality control now may have saved me some potential headaches later. As with all new camera systems, there will undoubtedly still be some minor bugs, but if any major bugs are eliminated before the cameras ship, it will enable putting the cameras into real world productions situations that much sooner.

Larry the Cable Guy's quip is "Git 'er done!", but I'd add one extra word to that - "Git 'er done right!"

Thanks for being thorough on QC, and communicating with us clearly and regularly. I'd say ship the products when they're ready, and when you can, let us know a timetable for that.

Full confidence and support here...

[Billy Summers]

Nuff Respect Jim.
What a stand up guy you are!
I am continuely impressed by your real world honesty.
Thanks for creating this project and thanks for being you!

best,

B.

[Tom Lowe]

My brother and I own a small tech company, and it took us a lot longer than we thought to get it up and running. But we take comfort in the fact that even a super-successful billionaire businessman like Jim runs into the same types of delays we did. It's just part of doing business, and you learn more with every project!

Rock on, Jannard.

[Adrian Correia]

take the time you need to do it right....right now! Just kidding!

[Daniel Reichenbach]

I have full confidence. Tomorrow we have our first REDswiss Meeting. There will be 10 REDusers. Not bad for this little country. And we all believe in RED. More than ever.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I had no idea my "5 week request" would end up being a real target date..

I feel pretty special right now.

I'm cool Jim. I'm also sorry you guys have had issues.. It must be some pretty serious pressure over there.. Hope everyone is handleing it ok.

As for me, the longer the wait the better

Jay

[RED-Tank]

Nothing more Jim, just appreciate you & RED Team has done all these hard work. I understand that you hope to roll out this baby quickier, perhaps this is a good time for you all to have some rest too, especially after the brilliant NAB show :D.

Or how about take the time to open few more holes in REDONE to slot in more CF or a built-in monopod that could pop out from REDONE body, that is fun.

Sorry guys, I find myself even more exicting in "waiting"... the longer you wait the better you get ! ha.

[regista]

Thank you for the heads-up, Mr. Jannard. Please count on my continued support of your revolutionary project. I'm sure the wait will be well worth it.

[Jared VanLeuven]

Thanks Jim & RED team for the openness.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

What I find amazing is that RED can suffer difficulties with more than one supplier and it only sets them back a few weeks, maybe a month or two. I've lost entire projects on a much smaller scale when one supplier fails me.

Heh... I'm trying to get couple small orders for new hockey jerseys filled for my team plus a kid's team I sponsor. I can't even get a canadian sportswear supplier to ship two dozen common jerseys in a popular style to the local screen printer.

[miles]

Maybe in the meantime we can discuss and give feedback to a RedMatte matte box design/render :)

lp, m.

[Todd Anderson]

Personally, it is a split to me at this point as to what I am more blown away with: the red project itself, or the honest way Red conducts their business.

Very revolutionary on both those accounts there Mr. Jannard. Thank you for the frankness.

[Adrian T.]

You can't get "lucky" in a revolution.

I still wish you luck! Maybe it helps... :biggrin:

Thanks for the update, Jim.

[Blaine Golden]

Since Gibby said it so well, I'll second his post.

[Tom Lowe]

I'll tell you what: by the time this whole RED project is done and in the can, a good writer at a top business magazine or maybe somewhere like WIRED could write one hell of a long and awesome article about what Jim has done with this. And what would it be worth if there were no ups or downs??

[James T Mather]

Well done Mr. Jannard - the net result is that everyone will relax for a while - thanks for the feedback - very much appreciated.

[I Bloom]

What we thought would be a quick fix turned out to require a re-design and re-spin.

I'm amazed that you are so open about your plans and problems, with your competition most likely lurking on this board. I think it shows that you have confidence that your bussiness ethos of communicating directly with your customers is something that no-one else in the bussiness can compete with. RED is truly a WEB2.0-ClueTrain-21st Century company. I have full confidence in you guys.

By the way, what does it mean to re-spin a circuit board?

IBloom

[Joe Aurili]

I just assumed nano-bot spiders are making the boards.


By the way, what does it mean to re-spin a circuit board?

[Keith Nealy]

H-E-L-L-O...

What about a behind the scenes... "the making of"... kick ass documentary of this whole project?

This is history in the making and it should be documented on....fil...er..ah... DISK!!

I'm sure there's some good footage already shot from "Frankie and the Protos" to New Zealand and the "PJ party"...and the domination of NAB.

This should be documented!!!

PS - I'm available - as of tomorrow I'm pau (finished) on a documentary.

aloha, :innocent:

Keith

[Alexander Nikishin]

H-E-L-L-O...

What about a behind the scenes... "the making of"... kick ass documentary of this whole project?

Briferg of the RED Team is already on it! He was at the L.A. screening shooting on an HVX.

A making of documentary would be a perfect filler to the RED shipping package.

I'd watch it prior to shooting my first shot on the RED ONE as a remeberance of the year spent salivating over the camera.

[Joe Aurili]

I vote for that too. I'm sure it would be very entertaining to see (or hear the stories of) the behind the scenes process when we where all waiting and posting.


Briferg of the RED Team is already on it! I'd looove to see that too.

A making of documentary would be a perfect filler to the RED shipping package.

[Samscad]

H-E-L-L-O...

What about a behind the scenes... "the making of"... kick ass documentary of this whole project?

This is history in the making and it should be documented on....fil...er..ah... DISK!!


Keith

Best idea I've heard all week!

[Mike Harrington]

Thanks for the update Jim

Keeping the customers informed is definately a welcome change from the at-arms-length corporate public relations.

Red will inevitably become a sizeable company, and I hope this community minded attitude towards the customers will continue.....even if there are 10,000 of them.

[Jay A. Kelley]

For me personally, that mid-June schedule will be the single most important info release in the camera's history. A lot of what happens next with RED will be answered at that time, one way or the other.

I was just reading a thread on the lens mounts and how increadibly accurate they have to be in order to keep correct focus. It's things like that that give me a small insight into just how difficult and somewhat dangerous this project is. RED is really pushing some things that are difficult for everyone. Have you stopped to think about how major it will be to have a camera that can take so many lenses!? To make a mount that really works well again and again requires some amazing construction, and some top-flight materials. Jim assured us that the solution RED has will work fine, but the subject made me realize that this is an INCREDIBLY COMPLICATED PROJECT.

I expect we will see a schedule in June, but I would not be at all surprised if the release dates begin sometime in late July or early August. Another one of Jay's predictions? Perhaps... :)

The cool part is thanks to Jim's post, we are all moving forward with our eyes open.

Jay

[Alexander Nikishin]

Jim assured us that the solution RED has will work fine, but the subject made me realize that this is an INCREDIBLY COMPLICATED PROJECT.

"I've heard that this project is impossible... hehe" ~ Jim Jannard :wink:

[Don Woods]

hang in there guys. Next time I am down in the area I am bring beer by any favs..

[Joel Kaye]

"I've heard that this project is impossible... hehe" ~ Jim Jannard :wink:

"This mission, it just got a hell of a lot more impossibler."
Tom Crooze

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vEFQryAajc

[Chris Gearhart]

Arrived at this party late. Ditto. Everyone's said it all so well.

[Paul Hazlett]

Arrived at this party late. Ditto. Everyone's said it all so well.

I am alwys late to the party and the cheese dip is gone.

rats.

oh yeah....I got no problem with the timing, Mr. Jannnard and team.

thanks for the info.

[nathanail nathanailoglou]

Don't worry Jim. We can wait. And thanks for you presence here.

My unique worry is that I can't (anytime soon) smash my camera on the face of some denigrators...

Btw, that time will come...

lol

Get in Line

[Emanuel A.]

For me personally, that mid-June schedule will be the single most important info release in the camera's history. A lot of what happens next with RED will be answered at that time, one way or the other.

I was just reading a thread on the lens mounts and how increadibly accurate they have to be in order to keep correct focus. It's things like that that give me a small insight into just how difficult and somewhat dangerous this project is. RED is really pushing some things that are difficult for everyone. Have you stopped to think about how major it will be to have a camera that can take so many lenses!? To make a mount that really works well again and again requires some amazing construction, and some top-flight materials. Jim assured us that the solution RED has will work fine, but the subject made me realize that this is an INCREDIBLY COMPLICATED PROJECT.

I expect we will see a schedule in June, but I would not be at all surprised if the release dates begin sometime in late July or early August. Another one of Jay's predictions? Perhaps... :)Don't think so! It will probably be no sooner than... I'm afraid that most of us we're pushing Jim where he can't go and to our dreams (no) matter.

[Jeff Coatney]

It is very common to have delays, failed suppliers, unreliable vendors and back-to-the-drawing-board engineering on a project of this magnitude. What is uncommon and to my mind, most exciting, about the entire Red project is the complete lack of a "marketing" and "public relations division" separating Red Team from the End-User (All of Us).

I wouldn't be here cheering on Jim and the rest of the Team if all we were getting was some canned, programmed marketing double-speak in the form of a lame press-release. I'm glad to hear that cracking this nut ain't easy. It shouldn't be. This camera pushes the envelope in all directions and when we all get our hands on it, we're going to create amazing cinema with it.

This situation of complete honesty is unheard of, and I'm confident that the product that emerges from this design culture will be an extraordinary piece of equipment. Thank you for taking the BS out of the equasion, Jim. I've waited twenty years for a camera like this. What's a few more months?

[John K]

Unless you're extremely unlucky, I can't see how it's going to make too much difference to most of the reservation holders, since most of them wouldn't have been expecting delivery until later in the year anyway. Generally the further down the production line the better the product! More time to save up if nothing else!

[Obin Olson]

Wow, J you really put the hammer down on mike with closing that thread and all so quick....makes me wonder why?

[Medavoym]

Obin,

I was definitely NOT trolling, I politely expressed my honest opinion (which I still think is very valid and was not expressed improperly in any way) and I am also stunned that my thread "More DR - Still the truth?" got moved to "Off Topic" (which is not) and got locked in less than 5 minutes. It was definitely contrary to what this forum stands for.

While I do not agree with Jarred's opinion and actions he took on my post, I have the highest respect for him so I accept it.

[SF Geek]

One thing I was wondering was how the delay would not affect later reservation holders. There are plenty of non-red employees on this site that are saying that only the first hundred or so will be affected. How is that possible? The plan was to ship out the first few cameras and ramp up production. Is that not the case anymore?

On another note, how are the red lenses coming? Those shouldn't be delayed by the respin. I know the 18-85 was put to bed for a while, but that's really the only lens i was interested in buying. All the other lenses look great, they're just not financially feasable for me right now.

[Obin Olson]

I don't know you Mike but I don't think you need to sugar coat it around here. It was locked. and pulled fast. not the usual love I feel around here...wonder why..

I thought you had a valid point. IMHO and you had NO negative in your post IMHO.

maybe they know something I don't, do you work for Sony? etc?

[Kenn Christenson]

You know what they say about idle hands - maybe it's true of idle minds, as well.

[Medavoym]

He he, of course I don't work for Sony. I'm just one of the many customers here.

Let's just put this to rest. If Jarred thought my post was a threat, he was wrong -- anyway it doesn't matter anymore.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I went over and read your post dude... I can see where you would come up with your opinion. It's logical, and Jarred slamming the hammer down so fast does not help things.. But remember he's a company man, and this is a company board.

ALL Companies control the flow of information to a certain extend. This company will be no different.


I am at least glad your post was not deleted! As for me, I have no opinion on the matter except to say I can understand how you came to the conclusion you did. I am not ready to go with your stance on this as yet though. I am going to give everyone the benefit of the doubt since taking your point of view does not fill me with warm fuzzies. I prefer to wait until RED's next progress report in a couple of weeks and belive that the different notes are the product of evolution, not dishonestly.

The simple fact, is, I know very little about what's going on. So I can only look at this from a results standpoint.. I make my decisions based on what has happened rather than what I guess will happen. It's really the only way we can go given that we are not really "in the loop"..

So... That said.. Time to sit here and do what we all seem to do so well....

Wait...

:)

Jay

[Emanuel A.]

Wise words, daddy boy... ;-)

:)

[Simon Dean]

I can guess that the thread was moved because this forum (as opposed to off topic) appears on the red.com homepage.

Whilst J may have been a little hasty, just think that you would never even have had the chance to communicate with any other manufacturer in this way. I think the main thing is that we're just not used to seeing the development of a product in this much detail - you just wouldn't get the camera from some companies, no explanation why or real schedule or anything.

In summary, I don't think there's any dishonesty, just more problems than foreseen.

[Jannard]

This was "slammed shut" because a story was being built from my posts that isn't correct. And, quite frankly, I don't really want to explain every detail that is going on behind the scenes. We give honest, timely snapshots. If someone wants to create a conspiracy because we don't give you every blow by blow... then take it somewhere else.

Jim

[david farland]

Agree with you on this jim,
As I've mentioned on before I've done a number of years of pcb design, on low noise systems and realise it's as much a black art as a science when you're talking about board layout and chip selection inorder to have the cleanest signals possible. now if people don't understand things like common mode rejection ratios on differential amps and how ripple on a voltage line can introduce noise in the least significant bits of a data bus or that's when I'm relying on the manufacturers spec as true but in reality aren't and the chip/batch needs to get swapped out, or that boards manufacturers give 'suggested, board layouts for their chips but hey these don't always work and tracks in certain conditions radiate more noise and I need to redraw that board or react to hundreds of other things that may go wrong, well i'm not about to give you a 2 hour physics lesson on it. And if I say a board is broke and needs to get redrawn, or a chip is not up to spec and need replacing or have filters added to it and I say it needs fixing or what ever terminolgy I chose - broke, noisy, fix, respin, screwed, during my R & D or manufacture phase, please leave the conspiracy theory stuff to one side for a bit and just accept it!

Cheers,

[Rogelio Salinas]

Jim. Realize that you have thousands of supporters and just a few dissenters. There was an episode of the Simpsons where Mel Gibson showed his remake of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington and every single person at the test screening loved it except for one person, Homer. What does Mel do? He ignores all of the compliments and concentrates all his efforts on Homer's ideas and ruins an already great movie. Don't worry about the assumptions and opinions of a few others. There are plenty of us who support your hard work and dedication. You are the founder of this company and from the get go, your intentions have been to create a revolutionary digital cinema camera that can create images that rival 35mm film at an incredible price. You have been an example of how the founders of all companies should behave. You have offered a great product at a great price and kept an open line of communication with your clients and prospective clients. We know that you and the RED teams intentions are not just meant for what is best for the company, but what is best for the consumer as well and we will stand by you my friend.

[Keith Alan Morris]

man, this brings back memories. i had a great forum promoting a project and was chased off it by a few people's poorly chosen words. that still stings. the financers and producers were to blame for a delay in shooting and the "fans" took it out solely on me. i got so pissed i took down my whole board. in hindsight it still bugs me. it really is a fine line we all tread when anybody can post and piss in our cheerios.

[Jannard]

I really didn't want to waste my time on this... BUT

Dear Jim,

As many people know I am a big supporter or RED, one of many here on Reduser.net. I am behind the team 100%, and nothing will change that one bit. I am sure you will finish this massive project and deliver an eathquake to the industry soon.
Good so far...

However, I must say I was puzzled to say the least when reading your thread "Schedule". Actually I am surprised nobody picked up on that so far, at least to my knowledge (which is something good, showing what amazing support and leeway you get from us, the RED fans). But let me explain myself.
OK... ?

You said a short while ago that you decided to redesign a board completely, to give it a new spin in order to achieve more dynamic range and less noise. Everyone (including myself) was elated, even though that meant a delay for both the reservation holders and those with an order. Slowly, you admited to more problems - problems with suppliers and so on (totally understandable). All good so far. As you saw, no one had any problems with it.
and...

BUT - in the thread "Schedule" - you actually admitted that you suffered an unexpected failure at one of the boards, and it was in truth because of this fact that you had to order a complete new design for the board, to give it a new "spin". Unfortunately - and to be brutally honest - it is now pretty obvious that when the team suffered this surprising malfunction, RED decided to hide the truth and say to us that this board is being redone for more dynmic range. In the long run it proved to be the wrong choice, as you had to revert back to the truth in the end.

Here is where you go on my shit list.

1st off... Our "surprise failure" was a production board that had a bit more noise than we had expected. BUT, we could have finished the camera and started shipping with these production sensor boards... PJ's film was shot on these boards and no one complained. My idea of a "failure" and yours might be a bit different. If I had used the term slight disappointment, would that have avoiding this conspiracy theory? If something doesn't meet my expectation, I consider it a failure. In this case, "others" would kill for our failures.

Graeme had an idea to increase dynamic range so we took the opportunity to re-design the sensor board with the goal of both increasing dynamic range and beating Frankie's noise level...

I think I posted something like, "we delayed to improve dynamic range and reduce noise by re-designing our sensor board". Which was, and still is, true.

Your story, built on my words, paints quite a bit different story. And it kind of pisses me off, truth be known.

Now, this is again understandable. Every company would have done the same. Hell, I wold have done exactly the same had I been the leader of RED (yeah, I know I'm not :-)) BUT - given the superb track record of you being totally honest with us from the very beginning, not hiding anything good or bad - I must say I am a tiny bit disappointed with this incident going against your policy so far. I'm sure everyone here would have understood the setback from day one when it happened. And in fact I'm sure you, too, are a bit disappointed that for once you chose not to tell the truth. Of course, you were not obliged to do so; but being used to being told the truth constantly, one gets used to it :-)
Please understand that I don't know you, but I'm quite disappointed at your detective work. Just so you know.

Jim

THE MAIN THING, I hope the "more dynamic" range is still one of the reasons for the delay, and not just a ploy as - to be blunt again - it seems right now in retrospect.

I hope no one will get angry with me on this board, since I just tried to point out a thing that was not right, in my humble opinion. Healthy criticism is always a good thing. I remain one of the greatest fans along with everyone else here,

Mike

[Emanuel A.]

Let's changing subject...?! Though as one of the 1st reservations holders, I just can take in consideration so far it is -- this open mind (concerning us) we can get from the owner of the company, himself.

EDIT -- Yoda spoke. :)

[RobRoySyd]

So all it comes down to is a question of semantics. Someone read the word "Failure" to mean "died" when that wasn't the intended meaning at all. Perhaps in hindsight Jim might have expanded on what he meant or chosen a more descriptive term.
However rather than someone jumping into the conspiracy theories a simple question about what was meant by "failure" would have cleared up the issue.
Even if it was failure as in something went bang this wouldn't have been such a big issue, this happens all the time in PCB design, not enough track clearance, mounting holes didn't allow enough for tolerance in castings, a zillion reasons. When I read Jim's initial post that was all I assumed it was, even though that wasn't what it was, it's such a trivial and common issue I failed to see why the team needed to elaborate any further.

I wonder how many realise how much time it takes to writeup a detailed progress report, one that's almost like a legal document so it cannot be misunderstood in any way shape or form, somehow I think the time and resources that eats up could be better spent getting on with the job.

[Kevin Halverson]

It is very common to wait to implement a hardware change until a new PCB is being designed if it involves something that can't be accomplished in software/firmware or glue logic. I don't see any conspiracy, just an opportunistic point in the manufacturing cycle.

[Emanuel A.]

Now speaking seriously, as well. Sometimes some typical american search for the truth puzzles my european and filmmaker sensibility...

There's no one unique truth but several of them. The truth is often based on half-truths or not even from the middle of...nowhere?

We need to know how avoid the naive attitude and check between the lines. Always in life -- the world is not (only) RED ONE ;-)

What Jim has known (is) to win on all these lines and preserve what is still the most important.

Mine (truth) is my confidence that Jim will deliver his "ONE" as soon as possible -- period.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jim,

Nevermind.. Have a good weekend.

Jay

[Medavoym]

Jim, I obviously do not know you personally, but I have so much respect for what you're doing for us filmmakers that I don't even want to get into the slightest argument with you. In fact I believe it's not too useful to get into arguments with anyone, truth be told (in that respect, maybe I shouldn't have spoken my mind when I posted in the first place) :-)

However, let me just say that I don't know where this whole "conspiracy theory" came from. If my post sounded like that, I certainly didn't intend it this way. Again, I just politely expressed my opinion, even if I was blunt. Maybe I still believe in it, maybe I don't - it doesn't matter. There are others who thought exactly like me (and you must admit it was very easy for people to reach this conclusion the way the announcements came, even if it would be a wrong one). But that's beside the point.

The point is, why waste time putting people on one's shit list for such small things? (I'll never meet you so your shit list or my shit list means nothing to both of us). But can't anyone express an (even wrong) opinion on Reduser? Especially since he clearly says he is extremely appreciative and supportive of the RED team, and he placed already an order for the camera?

In any case, I wish you all the best with this project, I am personally sure it will deliver even more than expected.

Michael

PS By the way, anyone checking my posts here will see that I am definitely NOT the trolling kind.

[Jay A. Kelley]

For the record Michael,

I disagreed with your post (As I said earlier) but I did not have a problem with what you said. I was able to see how you came to that conclusion, I just did not think it was the right one.

Please remember, this is NOT a typical forum, it's a company's communication site. Therefore, posts that put the company in a bad light on it's own site are not going to sit well.

I was not too wild about the nature of Jim's response, and when a gentleman in his position uses words like "shit list" I get pretty nervous. But it's no secret that Jim Jannard is a passionate fellow, and if you push his buttons he will respond. Not always the best idea, but who amoung us has not fallen into the emotional trap of defending something we care deeply for.

I repect you standing up for what you believe in, but I am not sure you are doing it in the right place.

To Jarred's credit your origional thread has been moved back into the main fold. You gotta put yourself in Jim and the boys shoes.. Jim made the decision to try to be open about the creation process of the camera, but we are all learning that to do this can create almost as many probems as it solves. In the end I have no doubt there will be a lot of talk as to weather or not this policy was worth implementing. From my perspective, I could have gone either way.. Tell me, don't tell me.. I'm mainly here to learn about the camera and speak with new friends. When my son was born I jumped on here to share it with all of you.. Sadly not a lot of you got to see it because I was also kicked into the off topic session. While I understood the rules, it was a painful thing to have that happen. I was reminded that the MODS just see me as another user, while I have grown to see all of you as a sort of extended family.. Some of your wonderful posts were read to my wife during labor as a distraction.. Over 60 coaches in the room.. That had to be a first. It would have been nice to have the rules bent for a day. Oh well.. I'm venting, time to move on.

Your cool Michael. It's just a high pressure time, lot's going on right now. Things will calm down when the camera get's over it's final hurdles

Jay

[Jannard]

Jim, I obviously do not know you personally, but I have so much respect for what you're doing for us filmmakers that I don't even want to get into the slightest argument with you. In fact I believe it's not too useful to get into arguments with anyone, truth be told (in that respect, maybe I shouldn't have spoken my mind when I posted in the first place) :-)

However, let me just say that I don't know where this whole "conspiracy theory" came from. If my post sounded like that, I certainly didn't intend it this way. Again, I just politely expressed my opinion, even if I was blunt. Maybe I still believe in it, maybe I don't - it doesn't matter. There are others who thought exactly like me (and you must admit it was very easy for people to reach this conclusion the way the announcements came, even if it would be a wrong one). But that's beside the point.

The point is, why waste time putting people on one's shit list for such small things? (I'll never meet you so your shit list or my shit list means nothing to both of us). But can't anyone express an (even wrong) opinion on Reduser? Especially since he clearly says he is extremely appreciative and supportive of the RED team, and he placed already an order for the camera?

In any case, I wish you all the best with this project, I am personally sure it will deliver even more than expected.

Michael

PS By the way, anyone checking my posts here will see that I am definitely NOT the trolling kind.

Michael... I apologize for the use of "shit list".

I really don't ask for much here. About the only thing that gets my hackles up is when my honesty is called into question. We are not perfect at RED. But we are trying to be. If there is a problem, I'll tell you. I have no motivation to trick anyone. I just don't need the aggravation. I'm not doing this to add a few more reservation holders. I have said all along that if we only make one of these (for me) I'll be happy. You "inadvertantly" pushed my button. Sorry if my response was too strong.

Jim

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I'd be lying if I said "it's all good" because this camera is so freakin' awesome I just cannot wait to get it. Honestly it'll be like the best three Christmas presents I've ever had put together. I really can't imagine what it'll be like to open up that package...

[Jay A. Kelley]

This whole thing reminds me of movie-making. We're all so caught up in the "process" right now, we've forgotten a little the wonderful thing that got us all here.

The cool part is that when this "project" is screened to the public, all of this will be a distant memory and fun to go back to and read for old time's sake.
Jay

[dalemccready]

I think people have to be very careful when they post in a manner that attacks the character of another person, be it Jim, Ted or any one of us. This forum can't possibly give us a detailed view of what's going on, and we inevitably rely on the information given to us.
But we have to err on the side of trusting people.
If you look for dishonesty and proclaim such with no evidence other than conjecture, it's riding a very slippery slope and personally I can understand Jim's annoyance.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

My film school, or rather previous film school, the LAFS, did not put any reservations on the RED. Because of numerous problems with the school, including a complete lack of focus on quality equipment and new technology, I dropped from the school with my two business partners today. We took $85,000 with us, which frankly I have better use for than spending at a film school that thinks Avid is 90% of the industry and 16 and 35mm film are what you REALLY need to know.

I frankly couldn't care less about arguments relating to the quality of film and digital right now, because my opinion is set that digital is vastly superior, and has been since the Sony F950 -- if you want to tell me that Revenge of the Sith didn't look better than any movie you've seen in 35mm, then I say you're full of crap and didn't see the movie I did. Plus, I have 20/12 vision, almost twice what the normal person has (thanks, LASIK), so I know what I saw and it was better than film anyway. And yet the RED is better than that. The reason that argument doesn't even matter to me is because the cost of film is too prohibitive for me to use it anyway. So who cares even if film was a bit better? It's a stupid argument. I know a lot of people who have used film for decades are used to it and think it's normal, but to me and a lot of people new to the industry, it's frankly an absolute joke. This isn't 1945. This is 2007. There's no way I should be screwing around with BS 100-year-old analog crap when everything else is digital. The "organic beauty of celluloid film" is such a hoax I cannot understand it. The reason Citizen Kane was voted #1 by the AFI is because it overcame the limitations of film by having deep focus cinematography that was revolutionary, and yet somehow the terrible lack of deep focus in most movies is seen as a benefit to film? And the awful grain is also somehow really a great bonus of shooting in film? Wow. Yeah alright, I guess the typewriter is really better than the computer because it's much better to have to redo an entire document when you make one typo. I'm sorry but no thanks. When old-timers stop seeing flaws as benefits, they'll "get it." I don't have any problem with many shots being in complete focus throughout, ala Star Wars, I prefer to have a background to look at and visual interest that lasts many viewings. Audiences now aren't so stupid that they can't figure out where to look unless you ruin the shot by making only one thing in focus. That isn't the way the eye sees, and I prefer realism. Also, Avid isn't the industry standard. Avid WAS the industry standard, five years ago. I have spoken with enough professionals who work in the industry, and by that I mean in anything related to moving pictures, and I've heard that Avid has about a 60% share of filmmaking right now and Final Cut has a 60% share of broadcast work. Sun Microsystems does NOT use Avid, they use Final Cut and only Final Cut. Every Avid editor I've talked to who has since learned to use Final Cut thinks Avid is a piece of s**t, which it is, in fact, a total piece of s**t that can't compare to Studio 2 on any level whatsoever. Especially when Color is adapted from a much more expensive program that was never available on a consumer level.

Film vs. digital and Avid vs. Final Cut are the same arguments -- traditionalists who refuse to accept the facts versus people who have no sentimentality and just care about the efficiency and quality of the finished product.

A film school that focuses mainly on film and Avid, and charges almost $40,000 for tuition yet cannot buy a single professional steadicam, doesn't have reservations on the RED, has too few HD cams for its students, and has staff who mostly graduated from the school itself in the last 5 years, is not a place that is worth attending.

I can't wait until I get my RED, and my partner David has the RED on order too, so our company will have 2 REDs, the LAFS will have zero. That's pathetic. Already my sound effects library is better than theirs, my lighting kit is better than anything they have, and both of those were less than $1,000 each. Rip-off, big time.

It was a happy day getting my money back today, but not nearly as happy as when my RED comes. Sure, it's "just" a tool, but it's a tool that elevates the professionalism of our company by a large magnitude. It's the type of equipment that gives you back-up options. I'm sure it will not be a problem if I have no work lined up to rent my camera to an independent production and attach myself as a camera operator for an absolute minimum of $500 per day. I doubt that with a prime lens set I'd charge anywhere near that low of a price, considering I've seen some of the companies that plan to charge ridiculous sums for just renting the camera. In any case, it may be a tool, but it's a very powerful one.

[dalemccready]

your eyesight must be better than mine if you can read that massive block of text. ;)

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

LOL, nice.

Sorry I'm in a ranting mood after that film school experience. I have heard people say film school is a rip-off, but I always just assumed it'd be the best way. But at more than $1,000 per week for the school (you have 32 weeks of class, the rest is just working on productions for free, which you can obviously do on your own time without the school -- anyone will hire you for free if you're willing to work hard!), that's brutal. Especially with three guys who want to quit, why not just pay industry professionals to teach us what we want to know directly?

I mean heck if there's anyone here who needs some extra cash and lives in the L.A. area, we can pay a very nice hourly wage to learn more about cinematography, both camera operation and lighting. It's worth it to us.

[Keith Nealy]

I just got on the board after a long day to find this bruhaha.

What?... trouble in river city?

What post is every on talking about? Where is it? It got moved?

Now I gotta go look for it... Wait... Jim posted the letter.

Mike, I just want to ask you where you think you get off showing the kind of mistrust and and disrespect for Jim to confront his public statements on his own company board?

Whether you agree with him or not you were disrespectful to him, this board and it members by challenging him in his public space... a space where all the competition and detractors can mine for information.

Why do you think your opinion is more important that the sanctity of this board which has been a forum for all of us to learn and share knowledge about this digital revolution?

Others have said you have a right to your opinion and I agree with that - except taking a dump in Jim's house is not acceptable.

Jim is a standup guy and rather than hide behind a PR screen he tells the painful truth. And you feel you have the right to call him on his statements?
To get to the bottom of this?

This is not "Sixty Minutes" and we don't need you to find out the real truth for us.

We have faith and respect for the man and are willing to take him at his word.
Where I come from, a man's word is really all he can call his own. There is nothing more important. But it usually takes a gentleman to recognize its real worth.

This is Jim's house. Please respect it.

Let's show Jim the respect that he is due for his work, his vision, and the respect he has shown us by letting us in the inner sanctum to see and participate in the development of this revolution.

Jim, thanks for your candid and forthright response to Mikes letter.


Aloha,

Keith

[Keith Nealy]

Jonathan, I applaud your courage, and I agree with many of your statements.

Get your RED, start building your demo reel and your vision and create your career.

Whenever some kid comes to my studio and tells me they can do anything because of the film school they went to I ask, "But what have you actually done?"

Real world experience will be, IMHO, much more valuable to you and the people you work for.

Read this forum and others like it and learn from the best then go out and do it.

Rock on Jonathan... you're on the right track. Just believe in yourself.

aloha,

Keith

[dalemccready]

I'm with Keith Jonathan, if you're prepared to learn and pay for the experience, then I'd venture you'd be willing to work for free for experience on a production and it might turn out to be much more cost effective.

I guarantee you that if you ask to learn, and show enthusiasm, you won't work for free for long.

Film schools, other than providing access to equipment and a chance to experiment, are often best for figuring out exactly which job or part of the film making you'd like to make a living/learning in (or which you don't). If you already have some idea what dept would most suit you, get into it and don't look back, you'll get the chance to meet and learn from people's experience while creating your own.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Hey Keith,

Yeah you wouldn't believe how crappy the last batch of student thesis films were, my god. It was embarrassing. When people talk about the camera just being a tool, they really should go see thesis films, because you will never find a truer example of that! The stories are mostly just god-awful! Not to say the technical aspects are great, but at least half of them I thought had good sounds, good picture, and overall the technical merits were certainly not bad for student work. But I was left thinking, "...and? What was the message I was meant to take from this? Was I just supposed to be entertained? I guess I was... somewhat entertained." Although the 24-minute slasher was the worst, figures the worst film would also be the longest. It had no extras, and yet it was set in a high school and at a party. It's really tough to make a convincing movie with FOUR actors ;) It looked like it was shot on a 1 CCD camera, no idea what they used, the editing was hilarious, like literally there would be a line of dialogue, in the middle of one of the words, the film would cut to a completely different location, then cut back for the second half of the word. I've seen 12-year-olds do better work.

Basically from what I understand, the industry doesn't care where you went to film school, they care what your reel looks like and what you actually have done in the industry. I think for me hands-on experience and just getting out there and doing as many projects as possible is the right approach because of my extensive background in theory already. I graduated summa cum laude from OSU with a philosophy degree, took seven classes in film history and criticism there, I ran a film review site for years where I wrote more than 600 reviews, and I've written two books on the industry (Anticipation by Jonathan L. Bowen is available on Amazon.com, the second book comes in late summer and is called Revenge). So for me, I'm honestly ready to be a filmmaker and not just a film theorist. I love and appreciate film history, that is my background, but now it's time to get out there and start doing.

It's exciting but also scary. I think we have a nice team, though. My friend David is a wealthy guy, comes from a background in business, and has lots of contacts (we're interested in starting by focusing on the Persian market because David speaks four languages, he's Assyrian, and has many Persian friends in the music industry). My friend Brendan is a computer wizz and a very strong editor already, although he wants to learn much more. I'm a solid writer and interested in becoming a director (much to learn, but I really think that by reading as many books on cinematography and directing as I can find, and doing as many projects as I can get, I will learn the old-fashioned way). Between the three of us we have a lot of areas covered, although none of us are strong at cinematography to be honest. We all want to learn as much as possible; it's a weak spot. I understand the theoretical setups of camera shots, rules not to violate, and a lot of that good stuff. I don't understand more complicated filmmaking techniques involving the camera, and I don't understand more complicated lighting setups. I was hoping to work some solid DPs here in the next six months and maybe have them help us.

Another idea we had is to make projects, take them seriously, produce the best work possible, then pay a few professionals to watch what we have and criticize the end results so that we can figure out everything we did wrong. I still think all of this can be done for less than the $85,000 we would have paid at the film school...

PS: Yeah we're all absolutely interested in working on productions for free to learn how the process works and help in whatever ways possible. David and I have substantial financial resources (our partner Brendan does not), not obviously unlimited, but enough that we don't need to worry about finding jobs, but for us it's about the learning process. We just want to learn as much as possible and working on real productions seems to be a quite practical way to do that! It's not about the money. That's a nice bonus for later.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I think you are spot on about Film School Dalemccready, The whole "digital revolution" of which RED will be the new high point, is about empowering us to get out there and make work just because we want to make it. Though of course that's not to say that loads of teaching is not still very valuable to students.

If (WHEN!) the RED team produce a camera that can be mass produced, then it'll change my filmmaking life. That's why I put my money down without having even seen the camera (I live in London, UK). And that's why I'm spending MUCH more than I normally would on camera, lenses, tripod...

I also think that they are absolutely right to take the time to tweak that board to get the maximum possible dynamic range and the lowest possible noise from the camera. It's not about emulating film, it's about imitating reality, and from what I've seen RED does that very well. IMHO Film has always done it better than digital up to now; I suspect it's as much to do with Film's response to light and colour as a simple question of resolution.

Respect to Jim and his talented team. If they fail then I'll still respect them for having tried. But if they succeed, as I know they will, then they'll have given all of us filmmakers a great gift. I'm really looking forward to seeing the films that all the users of this board make when they get their cameras. Maybe we shoud have a festival: "RED DANCE" lol:)

[dalemccready]

Crikey Jonathan, you seem to have the resources and the background. What are you waiting for? Why don't you just write something and go shoot it?

[Zk2007]

I frankly couldn't care less about arguments relating to the quality of film and digital right now, because my opinion is set that digital is vastly superior,

Vastly?
Well, you have big words there, including pre-offending any possible posters that may disagree with you. Quite immature if you ask me, but anyways.
Digital is great, is cheap and is practical and I love shooting digital and want my RED.
But film is better than digital. That’s a fact! Not even your “super vision” can change that.
Well, OK, when you say film and digital you need to specify what you really mean. Film is super8, 16mm, S16, 35mm, S35, IMAX? Digital is 720p, 1080, 2K, 4K?
I would think you mean 35mm/S35, because IMAX is so above and superior to digital right now that there’s not even discussion.
So for 35mm/S35, RED apart, because I haven’t seen anything from it enough to judge it yet and I’m not going to judge the camera based on a few seconds of compressed 1K footage, there’s no digital camera today that exceeds 35mm quality. Yes, digital has other advantages besides quality, but quality wise 35mm is still king. As I said, RED apart as it can’t be compared yet. Soon it may change.
About your comment on Revenge of the Sith, quite honestly, IMO, it’s the poorest example you can give for digital. It was full of soft spots, noise, artificial looking skin tones and all sort of artifacts, simply because the image was so pushed. Movies shot with the Genesis look much better than any movies shot on the Sonys.
I shoot digital and can’t afford film. But just because all you can afford is digital, that doesn’t make film worse.



and has been since the Sony F950 -- if you want to tell me that Revenge of the Sith didn't look better than any movie you've seen in 35mm, then I say you're full of crap and didn't see the movie I did. Plus, I have 20/12 vision, almost twice what the normal person has (thanks, LASIK), so I know what I saw and it was better than film anyway. And yet the RED is better than that. The reason that argument doesn't even matter to me is because the cost of film is too prohibitive for me to use it anyway. So who cares even if film was a bit better? It's a stupid argument. I know a lot of people who have used film for decades are used to it and think it's normal, but to me and a lot of people new to the industry, it's frankly an absolute joke. This isn't 1945. This is 2007. There's no way I should be screwing around with BS 100-year-old analog crap when everything else is digital. The "organic beauty of celluloid film" is such a hoax I cannot understand it. The reason Citizen Kane was voted #1 by the AFI is because it overcame the limitations of film by having deep focus cinematography that was revolutionary, and yet somehow the terrible lack of deep focus in most movies is seen as a benefit to film? And the awful grain is also somehow really a great bonus of shooting in film? Wow. Yeah alright, I guess the typewriter is really better than the computer because it's much better to have to redo an entire document when you make one typo. I'm sorry but no thanks. When old-timers stop seeing flaws as benefits, they'll "get it." I don't have any problem with many shots being in complete focus throughout, ala Star Wars, I prefer to have a background to look at and visual interest that lasts many viewings. Audiences now aren't so stupid that they can't figure out where to look unless you ruin the shot by making only one thing in focus. That isn't the way the eye sees, and I prefer realism. Also, Avid isn't the industry standard. Avid WAS the industry standard, five years ago. I have spoken with enough professionals who work in the industry, and by that I mean in anything related to moving pictures, and I've heard that Avid has about a 60% share of filmmaking right now and Final Cut has a 60% share of broadcast work. Sun Microsystems does NOT use Avid, they use Final Cut and only Final Cut. Every Avid editor I've talked to who has since learned to use Final Cut thinks Avid is a piece of s**t, which it is, in fact, a total piece of s**t that can't compare to Studio 2 on any level whatsoever. Especially when Color is adapted from a much more expensive program that was never available on a consumer level.

Film vs. digital and Avid vs. Final Cut are the same arguments -- traditionalists who refuse to accept the facts versus people who have no sentimentality and just care about the efficiency and quality of the finished product.

A film school that focuses mainly on film and Avid, and charges almost $40,000 for tuition yet cannot buy a single professional steadicam, doesn't have reservations on the RED, has too few HD cams for its students, and has staff who mostly graduated from the school itself in the last 5 years, is not a place that is worth attending.

I can't wait until I get my RED, and my partner David has the RED on order too, so our company will have 2 REDs, the LAFS will have zero. That's pathetic. Already my sound effects library is better than theirs, my lighting kit is better than anything they have, and both of those were less than $1,000 each. Rip-off, big time.

It was a happy day getting my money back today, but not nearly as happy as when my RED comes. Sure, it's "just" a tool, but it's a tool that elevates the professionalism of our company by a large magnitude. It's the type of equipment that gives you back-up options. I'm sure it will not be a problem if I have no work lined up to rent my camera to an independent production and attach myself as a camera operator for an absolute minimum of $500 per day. I doubt that with a prime lens set I'd charge anywhere near that low of a price, considering I've seen some of the companies that plan to charge ridiculous sums for just renting the camera. In any case, it may be a tool, but it's a very powerful one.

[Justin Kirchhoff]

How is it a fact that film is better than digital? Really, how is it?

I never wanted to get into one of these 'arguments' persay, but HOW is it a fact?

When you take film to post, you digitize it anyways, color correcting and color grading all DIGITALLY, providing visual effects DIGITALLY, and most theaters now are even projecting DIGITALLY. With a sensor that records 4k, very close to film acquisition, and is already digitized to highly optimized files, there is no way in hell you can't push both the digital and film image to the same maximum.

There may be different hardware and software workflows that may prevent this, but I have not seen or read one single proof that film is better than digital that has made me make up my mind.

It's old vs. new. Industry professionals are so far in the comfort zone of film that it's hard for them to turn back and see the future. I truly believe that, and even our boy JonathonLB believes that.

Maybe it's more rewarding for cinematographers and directors to see their final product AFTER processing, hoping they got the right exposure and the lighting and DOF were all the way they wanted, rather than see what they shot IMMEDIATELY after capturing to an on-board HDD or flash.

Proof...for some reason we need a lot of it in order for this debate to finally settle.

Fact...for some reason it doesn't seem that facts are read or seen the same way by two different people.

[david farland]

Biggest difference I'd throw in is film has more range (and weights this in the right area for HVS) in colour saturation and luminance. Most people grow up seeing a greater range in film based shows/movies at 24/25p than video. Particular film saturations with greater dynamic range is our level/benchment for goodness!! Most of the time video based images have been a poor cousin for these elements. This is changing and my 5 years old is growing up with a lot of good quality digitially sourced footage. He'll see this getting better and if film doesn't change (it will thou), he'll look as film based shows as rich and different but digitial content will be his usual fare. Grain/reduced resolution don't even rate here except as artefacts/elements in a filmic (suspension of reality) story which again, as we're used, is just another look.
Please can we argue about fcp/avid/mac/pc/tape/ford/pirelli/pal/democrats etc etc instead!!

Cheers,

[Justin Kirchhoff]

I typed in a long response here and it didn't end up posting....so nevermind! I can talk about it forever.

[David Dennis]

I really didn't want to waste my time on this... BUT

(Jim's rebuttal)



I realize you don't know me, and I know I'm insignificant in this context because I can't afford a RED camera of my own. But the RED story of you finding something you really wanted, and building it yourself instead of just griping about it not existing, is very inspirational to me.

I just wanted to say that I'm very impressed by your openness, and feel that in the end it will pay off for you. I really enjoy reading this board, even though I don't have the bucks to be a real player, because I just like seeing someone who's putting something together that will give both himself and many others great joy.

Hopefully your RED Mini will come out on a more affordable price point and I'll pick one up. But until then I wanted to express my hope for your continued success, integrity and pursuit of perfection. Those are amazing goals and I know you are working very hard to reach them.

I have total confidence in your success.

D

(PS Do your rain/stain resistant Oakley lenses work for normal light prescription glasses in ordinary conditions? If so, I should really buy a pair.)

[Medavoym]

Dear Jim,

Apologies accepted. Accept my apologies as well if my post went further than I wanted to. I didn't call your honesty into question, on the contrary, I was (and have been) laudative of the whole open process you initiated and so I wanted to point the ONE slip-up that I thought (and actually still think) was worth pointing out. Also, I hope my post was clear and respectful in conveying this idea. Since you say I was wrong, case closed. Things definitely went too far for my taste.

Good luck,
Mike

[Jay A. Kelley]

You know, I'm pretty sure I could write a full paragraph on Genital Herpes and someone on here would find a way to dovetail it into a digital vs. film debate!

:)

Jay

[tj williams]

Jay
It's true you know touching film can give you Herpes' However touching digital media can give you Chronic justification disease! The only cure is Lighting!!!

[Alex Boothby]

Jay, it is a proven fact that the dynamic range and resolving power of film is necessary to capture the rich textures and subtle tonal palette of GH...

[link removed]
Dude... really? ~Brook

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It's true you know touching film can give you Herpes

This kinda adds a whole new dimension to the term, "crusty old DP"....

[Jay A. Kelley]

Jay, it is a proven fact that the dynamic range and resolving power of film is necessary to capture the rich textures and subtle tonal palette of GH...

[link removed]

Dude.. I so did NOT NEED TO SEE THIS LINK

:(

Jay

Fair warning guys, it's gross.. Stay away

[Alex Boothby]

Yes that was wrong.... very very very wrong... I blame google.

[Elijah Kelley]

Thanks Jim for being forthright. It amazes me how often people can forget that we live in a real world. For those that have a quam about a this new product being developed it is important they realize that no one has been forced or begged to purchase a RED. But, to the contrary we as film and digital cinema users have begged for this camera to be developed at this price point. In a few months Jim you will once again laugh openly at those who can only see two feet in front of their own face. "The difference between one with a vision and one who is dreaming is that the visionary is awake and the dreamer is still asleep." (ELK)
From the evidence presented to us as redusers and soon to be red one operators it is safe to say that TEAM RED has been infused with visionaries that are endued with the ability to bring to fruition what many have only dared to dream. I propose a toast. To all the sacrifices made by TEAM RED: the sleepless nights, the endless slights that you endure to bring us more, that we may tell a timeless tale, our everlasting elixir, RED has allowed many of us to create a new motion picture. To TEAM RED and all the REDUSERS who patiently wait. A little corny but I mean it. Thanks again TEAM RED.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

The RED footage looks a lot better than anything you can shoot with film, because it's a lot cleaner. If you want grain you can add that in post, it's really not that difficult, you can basically do whatever you want to footage in post, including adding a bleach bypass effect with digital just like you can with film, only it's a heck of a lot easier to manipulate if it's digital footage than if it's film.

The reason I say digital is vastly superior to film is because of its greater flexibility. The quality itself is better, I think, but obviously not that much better, however when you compare cost and ease of workflow then there is really no comparison.

The people who are loyal to film and only want to shoot in film will eventually retire and/or die, and the people who are at the front of the digital revolution will take over. That's how a lot of these revolutions have to take place, because those in power are too used to doing what they've always done.

[wshultz]

You know, I'm pretty sure I could write a full paragraph on Genital Herpes and someone on here would find a way to dovetail it into a digital vs. film debate!

:)

Jay

Hi. I have digital. But she doesn't. I take digitrex daily to keep it that way. A recent study found that many people who don't even have Red yet have given digital to their partners who had film and were digital free.

[Keith Nealy]

Jonathan,

You're ready. You've got a much better start than most of us had. You've got partners, one with money and a good business sense - probably the most valuable of the three, one with computer skills and you - and you have seed money.

You guys are primed and ready. Just go for it and don't look back. Your willingness to ask for help is a sign of maturity and will serve you well.

As a writer one thing that would help, as someone who commented earlier, break up your post text into paragraphs so it is easier to read. You have a lot to say and should be heard - so make it easier for people to help you by making your posts easier to read.

I think you're on the right track. Make sure you and your partners have a good solid relationship and understand the equity relationship you all have in the company. When you're not making any money it's easy... It's when you're making money that ambiguities start to be a problem.

Good luck and keep asking questions. Remember you're going to to eventually stand on the shoulders of great people who have come before you... just step carefully and respectfully when you setp up and you'll make it.

aloha,

Keith

[SF Geek]

Come on guys. Is this the new film bashing forum? It's postings like these that make people think that the Red followers are ignorant and bitter. I can't believe you'd actually use that terrible trilogy of Lucas' to make your statement that digital is better than film. I'm getting a Red. I shoot a lot of digital, Cine Alta and Varicam. I know their benifits, but i'd be lying if I said I'd rather shoot with those cameras instead of film. Film is more expensive in certain respects, but it is much better than anything Sony or Panasonic has to offer. The Red should be an amazing camera. Nobody can argue that. but you have to remember that as a DP you should embrace all formats or else you're no better than all the Red bashers that you despise.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Ok Michael said what he wanted.. Jim said what he wanted.. We all chimed in, everyone has made nice nice.. And now we're onto a subject that is not the title of this thread.

I vote this thread is closing time.. Anyone 2nd?

Jay

[dalemccready]

yep I second it Jay, this one's spiralling into multi topic craziness

[Martin Drew]

I third it. Everything that needs to be said has been said... mods please lock it... please!

M

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Oh yeah, baby… Lock me…

Seriously, why not.

Emmanuel

[Robert Jackson]

My film school, or rather previous film school, the LAFS, did not put any reservations on the RED. Because of numerous problems with the school, including a complete lack of focus on quality equipment and new technology, I dropped from the school with my two business partners today.

Heh...a lot of film schools are apparently exactly the same way. After working as a broadcast cameraman for 20 years or so (and having done my first on-air work in 1971), I decided to go back to college about 7 years ago and get a BA in film production. I'd just backflipped a motorcycle and broken my arm in 14 places and I figured that while I was recovering (I had to learn to use the arm again) I'd get that film degree I'd always talked about getting. BTW, this is an X-ray of the arm:

http://home.comcast.net/~jackson.robert.r/MyArm.jpg

I live in Santa Rosa and I'd always been a fan of the experimental film work that came out of San Francisco State back in the 60's and 70's, so I went there. A few months later I was editing my first student film on a Steenbeck with a malfunctioning drive and a screen that intermittently cut out. I tried to get it fixed, but I was told that if I officially reported it as broken they'd have to shut that edit suite down indefinitely while they decided if repairs fell within their budget. And that I'd be subject to disciplinary action if I tried to fix it myself. SO...I had to have friends stand guard in the halls while I took it apart. Then the screening room for finals has a 16mm projector with a dozen or so mechanically interlocked audio gangs and every one of them had tensioning issues that broke the mag as soon as it was started. Several splices later, we eventually got it running, but the audio wasn't in synch with the film.

Most people I've talked to have similar stories from film school, though. I'm not even completely sure it matters. The most useful things I learned from my years at SFSU weren't related to practical production matters. Of course, I already had years of production experience from television so that wasn't really what I was there to learn, anyway. The history and theory I got out of the program and being able to hash out things with people who had experience in the industry were a lot more valuable than learning a new way to light a scene.

And yeah, a lot of those people had bad career experiences in L.A. that sent them running to a classroom in Northern California. You kinda have to sift through the bitter I-screwed-up-so-the-industry-sucks guys. We had one agent from CAA who came in and told us his career had destroyed two marriages and he missed seeing his kids grow up and for the love of all that's holy please don't do this with your lives. And of course, the department head worked for ten years on a Talented Mr. Ripley project starring Barry Pepper as Ripley that's still never been released, even though he ran HBO films for a decade and managed to get people like Willem Dafoe, Claire Forlani and Tom Wilkinson to star in his film. Great movie, BTW. Really entertaining. I'd love to see it actually get a release.

Uh...so...was there a point? You're gonna learn your own way of dealing with the practicalities on-set. Part of it will be how things are done where you work, especially if you're young. Changing how anything is done around a room full of older guys who are used to doing it one way will always be a tough one. More than likely it will see you finding a new place to work rather than changing the way they work. And you'll discover things that work for you in a way that will only make sense to you. I'm not sure you can learn any of that in a classroom. Professors frequently tend to be like those old guys who don't want to see things done any way other than the way they learned to do it in '75. You've gotta learn the crafts of the Stealth Rebel. ;-)

[planet e]

I vote this thread is closing time.. Anyone 2nd?

Jay

or else all you folks who are voting to lock it, could just stop reading it! there's a novel idea...

jim is working on a self-imposed deadline. he stumbled. BFD. i mean, we are all supposed to be video producers, fer cryin' out loud, people who make their livings meeting deadlines, which sometimes we hit and sometimes something comes along (disk crash, bad weather, sick actor, camera malfunction, operator malfunction...you pick) that makes us (oooo shocker!) miss a deadline!!! and it's a good thing for most of us that we don't have a public message board parsing our every move for our mis-steps. very few among us could hold up under that scrutiny.

i don't think jim has done anything to merit this micro-scrutiny of his integrity. he had some setbacks which he described to us in detail unparalleled by a start-up company. big whup.

[Emanuel A.]

or else all you folks who are voting to lock it, could just stop reading it! there's a novel idea...:) :sarcasm:

[planet e]

that's a cute combo of smilies, emanuel! :love:

[Poi Boy]

I second !
Aloha
-A

[dalemccready]

I think the reason people wouldn't mind this one getting locked up is not that they don't wish to read about the topics raised...it's just that this thread has spilt into many topics. I dare say that a couple of the larger rants should perhaps have been their own thread since they were pretty tangential to the original thread but had their own valid points of view.

[jaadgy akanni]

I for one, am just sick of it. I think it's now raining on wet ground...if you know what I mean. Shut this joint down please!

[Chris Gearhart]

I second !
Aloha
-A

I third it! That is indeed a cute combo of smilies, Emmanuel.

[Brook Willard]

Egads!