Wasn't it a mistake to...?

[gdv]

With the recession all around, I see Red owner taking rental price down.
In Latvia someone is offering a Red rental at 50% discount.
In Israel, I know from first hand, you can have two Reds for the price of one, which is another way of 50% discount.
The panic of discount, I must admit is not only at the Red sector but also with film camera.
Wasn't it a mistake to deliver 5000 Red cameras?
Don't we have flooded market which will leave no room for the upgraded generation, Epic, Scarlet, 645 617 etc,?
I can't see many people rushing and upgrading or buying the new cameras when we already have so many who has Red cameras and can't have a return for their money.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

no mistake from red.
50% discount is not unusual.

it is the fault of the guys around the globe who bought reds with loans counting on a ROI with rentals.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

On RED's end of all this, I don't see how it's a mistake to deliver 5000 or more cameras. Obviously there were that many paying customers and the camera continues to sell. Would it really be smart for RED to determine that the global market would be saturated at some arbitrary number like 3600 cameras? And simply stop selling them? Nah, from RED's point of view, the more cameras the better. Not only does it help them penetrate more markets, but also motivates third parties to further develop support for the RED workflow.

As for those dropping prices, that's their business. The world is in an economic slump, that's for sure. People need to do what they feel necessary. However, I think dropping rental rates is probably a mistake. It typically is only an effort to undercut the competition and keep work-loads up.

Then again, I'm now facing the prospect of seriously renting my RED kit and maybe broadening the area I cover for rentals. I'm having jobs cancel left and right lately because people don't want to spend the money right now. If it gets much worse, I'll just go do something else for a while. I've got another small business I'd like to start, but the voices in my head are telling me now is probably not the best time.

I have a hunch that there will be a number of cheap RED Ones out there real soon. I may be able to justify picking up a second body. But then again, if I'm not keeping my first camera busy, what would be the point?

[Nicholas Shields]

There are approx. 5000 Jeeps for rent in the U.S.. Value is virtually the same a basic Red set up. You can rent the Jeep for less than $100/day. If a rental house can't do the math, then it is they're problem. The truth is, the "real" rental houses - the one's with more than a single Red package, with a variety of equipment to rent - will have done the math b/c this is their business. They will get they're return b/c of the depth of their knowledge and the options they provide their clients - an almost invaluable service. Even though we own most of our own gear, incl. a Red system, we get great advice/service/special gear from our rental house partners.

[Clayton Harper]

There are approx. 5000 Jeeps for rent in the U.S.. Value is virtually the same a basic Red set up. You can rent the Jeep for less than $100/day.

A market is not just made by supply. There is also demand. It is possible that a Red camera could for less for than $100 but I doubt that will happen. :red_bandana:

[gdv]

no mistake from red.
50% discount is not unusual.

50% discount is no big deal, ah? but it is also depend 50% from what. From $1000 a day is $500 but from $500 it is $250. Wasn't it the price of Panasonic HVX200 not so long ago?





it is the fault of the guys around the globe who bought reds with loans counting on a ROI with rentals.
First, who said and why do you assume they all took loans.
Second, it is the nature of business to take a loan. I don't see anything wrong in taking a loan when someone see it as an investment with a return.

[Chris Pickle]

At it's most reduced point, this is all about the simple math. Not emotion, not how great you think the camera is, none of that. Should an $18k body rent for the same price as an $80k body? Why would anyone think that producers are not capable of using a calculator or Google.

To exaggerate the point, at larger budgets, the Red is only as valuable as the glass on the front of it. I bet a producer could go to a big rental house and ask for a free Red Camera to be included in the glass package. How can a single camera rental outfit compete with that? Maybe by adding some sort of support / DIT, but even the notion of DIT has been exaggerated. It's really not that hard to manage data from the Red.

I think many people that are excited about owning the Red are trying to have it both ways. They want an inexpensive alternative to 35mm film, but they want it to rent for much higher rates then the purchase price should suggest. What do you want.. to buy it low or rent it out high, because you can't have both.

Value added service is the only way to compete, and even then I bet it's a crap shoot. As more and more producers and crew work with the Red, the less hand holding they will need. I think post is still the weak point, so maybe there's something to offer there. Actually, as people start managing their own high-bred "DI" from the Red workflow, I think there is great opportunity in Color.... as I look forward on finishing a recent project, I'll be looking for someone who knows that app very well.

BTW - can you imagine how acute the rental issue will be when a $7k body is delivered later this year....

Chris

[conrad gaunt]

There are such large variations in rental prices that a 50% discount is, almost, meaningless. I might charge double and offer a 50% discount thinking about it..

I'm from a post background, have limited experience of camera rental, so I charge £150+vat for camera rental, and expenses (as I go as wrangler/camera lugger).

That price has never changed..

I learn as I go, both from watching, and people telling me what they need.

This is inline with my relatively limited accessories, although I have two Raids, two batteries, every kind of main/12v power adapters, and two lenses and a myriad of cables.

I think its a fair price, and allows clients in the quieter north of England to access Red technology, which I like.

Not having any significant overheads helps..

[Cüneyt Kaya]

50% discount is no big deal, ah? but it is also depend 50% from what. From $1000 a day is $500 but from $500 it is $250. Wasn't it the price of Panasonic HVX200 not so long ago?




250 usd to get the job is good.
you forget like red is selling the body as loss leader so do a lot of people rent out their red as loss leader.

250 usd red
back up body
lenses
ff
mb
tripod
light
dolly

post
postsupervising

still a lot to earn.
its just naiv to think you can rent out only the red for 500 today.
i prefer to have a 2000 usd complete package deal per day then a 500 usd.




I don't see anything wrong in taking a loan when someone see it as an investment with a return.

your choice.

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

Prices drop everywhere.. thats a normal thing to do..
Its the added value what makes it worth it or not.
Everyone can have a RED thats the whole motto of the company..
It takes more than just the body of the camera to make a great piece of art.
There are markets in which those added values are taking into account and deliver differently. Its just how you manage to market your product.
Eventhough it makes it very hard when the competition ruins your added value with undeniable loss of perspective :P

[Constantine Philips]

Red cameras should cost much more.

[Brice Ansel]

Red cameras should cost much more.
Is it a joke?

[Johann Schulz]

Obviously, if you've got a script worth it's wait/weight, now's the time to shoot! Your own ability to market this/your cam should easily push it to the top of the heap:

-the look is unique/kills video/chases film.
-you're experienced and ready to assist the uninitiated/your client;
-you're willing to negotiate.

Red One shoots should dominate the planet at this time. I only wish I was there....

[vincent pascoe]

So at Sundance this year I talked with a Sony rep about why the F35 is $300,000 and the RED is $35,000...His answers where that if they priced the f35 cheaper it would't be taken seriously... and that a million people would have it and the Renters couldn't get there investment back...

Of wich I would have decked him if there wasn't a girl present...(and to make it worse he ruined my chances with that girl since I got so flusted from talking with him. Never wrestle with a pig)

www.vincentpascoe.com

[Shawn Booth]

So at Sundance this year I talked with a Sony rep about why the F35 is $300,000 and the RED is $35,000...His answers where that if they priced the f35 cheaper it would't be taken seriously... and that a million people would have it and the Renters couldn't get there investment back...

Of wich I would have decked him if there wasn't a girl present...(and to make it worse he ruined my chances with that girl since I got so flusted from talking with him. Never wrestle with a pig)

www.vincentpascoe.com

You ruined your chances by allowing yourself to get flustered. Why would you want to hit the guy? He answered your question didn't he? Was the guy the man in charge of pricing at Sony? C'mon...

On another note - I swear I have worked with you in the past...

[mikeburton]

IMO its not just the amount of cameras out in the market, it is a combination of quite a lot of things. Guess what month we are in? We all know that the first couple months of the year are slow and spring summer is when most of us run like hell. The economy doesn't help either and when you put 4-5k bodies out in a market that is tightening up (economy) and is not in its peak shooting months (Dec-Feb) you will see lots of crazy shit going on. Prices slashed here, free camera rentals there etc.

I guess my point is, if your not prepared to weather the storms you shouldn't be playing outside. Spring and summer will be upon us again soon and there will be more demand. What role the economy is going to play is yet to be determined. Will prices be what they used to be when there was a long wait list? No, but there will be more work around the corner.