Why can't Phantom power stay on????

[HD Hildebrand]

Exactly as the title states: Why can't Phantom power stay on????

I engage Phantom power on one channel for a mic. Then the camera shuts down, battery dies, or what ever and the phantom settings never sticks. After I reboot, I have to go through the menus, turn on again, and piss and moan to myself that I just missed some great audio because I was in the middle of some sort of run-n-gun situation and forgot to turn on phantom power "again" for a previous shot or more.

Can a change be made with this?

[Jeff Kilgroe]

As I understand it, it's a safety feature so that it doesn't inadvertently get left on. There definitely needs to be a quicker way to access the on/off. But I really haven't played with it much, except a bit on someone else's camera, as my camera still hasn't been upgraded with the new audio board.

[Tashi Trieu]

I'm not sure if there is a sensor for detecting if something is plugged into the XLR ports. But I'd like to see phantom power remember your settings as long as something is plugged in.

[Rob Castiglione]

You can program your user assignable buttons to to directly straight to your phantom power menu. I have done this and it avoids digging around in the menus. Just assign some of the buttons on the back of the camera to go to the audio functions you most use.

Rob

[HD Hildebrand]

You can program your user assignable buttons to to directly straight to your phantom power menu. I have done this and it avoids digging around in the menus. Just assign some of the buttons on the back of the camera to go to the audio functions you most use.

Rob

Good idea - now I just have to figure out how to do this.

ANy other camera (I can think of) can assign Phantom and keep it on. Not sure what the "safety feature" would be preventing.

Should simply stay on if you assign it though.

Also, why is sound (levels and selecting tracks/phantom) in 2 completely different areas. Such a pain to be toggling though all kinds of menus on set.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I too would like to see it stay ON!

I keep forgetting setting it up everytime I switch batteries, and during the first take I realise that the audio bars in the display aren´t moving, I have to stop the recording, excuse myself, and reset the cam, annoying...

[C.H.Haskell]

I second this feature plz.

[Frank Weeks]

That would be a welcome feature. I tend to be forgetful in my old age.:glare:

[Terry Delahunt]

This request sounds like a good idea. Hope it is possible?

[Joe Bruncsak]

I fifth this request. I've been bitten by this "feature" several times now and really want to be able to keep p-power on between power-ups.

[NateWeaver]

I fifth this request. I've been bitten by this "feature" several times now and really want to be able to keep p-power on between power-ups.

I've been "bitten" by this as well, and has caused me MANY hours of grief in post.

I'm not sure there's really an acceptable reason for why it turns itself off, no matter what it is. Other cameras keep it on, the Red needs to as well. Kinda of a "basic".

[Sam Roberts]

I think it turns off after power down as a way of preventing someone mistakenly plugging a line level device into a powered audio input. You have to turn it on and are therefore reminded it is a powered channel.

[Tom Visser]

...although I can see your arguments and I don't mean to criticize anyone, but it is amazing to me the number of people that are hooking up microphones directly to the camera.

[conrad gaunt]

I have trained my brain to remember to switch Phantom power on.

What I can't do is train my brain to trust that the correct channels are still enabled after a reboot, which they always are, but still it always results in two checks being made..

I think I have OCD..

[NateWeaver]

...although I can see your arguments and I don't mean to criticize anyone, but it is amazing to me the number of people that are hooking up microphones directly to the camera.

The purpose in my case was for scratch audio for syncing. Cheap, fast onboard audio on camera can save time in post.

[Roger Morris]

The standard phantom power "on/off" state elsewhere in the pro audio world is that when a user switches phantom on, it stays on until that user intentionally switches it off.

"Auto off" on power down is the opposite of what an experienced audio guy would expect to see........which likely makes it even more confusing for both audio guys and video guys.

The premise that 48V can do some damage to things that have XLR connecters on them but that aren't condenser mics or D.I.'s is quite well known to any who make use of the technology........and most guys just remember to turn it off if need be.

[Tom Visser]

The purpose in my case was for scratch audio for syncing. Cheap, fast onboard audio on camera can save time in post.

Understood, a good reason. How about using a cheap wireless hop from the mixer's feed? I also agree with others, though, it is odd that any setting should change by a power cycle.

[Anson Fogel]

Yes, its killing me. I occasionally get one channel on and one off. Odd. I would assign a user button/key to it, but I need them for OTHER things, I could also use about 5 more quick keys!

[NateWeaver]

Understood, a good reason. How about using a cheap wireless hop from the mixer's feed? I also agree with others, though, it is odd that any setting should change by a power cycle.

In my case it was a unique music video job where the band insisted on playing live instead of playing to playback. No mixer, no hop. They were of the stature that they could insist upon such things.

[Brian Russ]

There is another option that, in my opinion, that will make the end product sound better. I come from a sound background and what I suggest is picking up a Phantom Power DI box. The cheap ones start at 20bucks, and if you wanna get crazy with your sound, a preamp could cost you 100bucks for a nice tube one. This may not be useful to all of you but for those of you that condenser shotguns, like I know some of you are, this might be an option well worth thinking about.

[Steve Sherrick]

...although I can see your arguments and I don't mean to criticize anyone, but it is amazing to me the number of people that are hooking up microphones directly to the camera.

Although in most professional environments a sound person is hired and therefore mixes in the bag and sends a line level out to a digital audio recorder and/or camera, there are times when you need to run a mic to the camera and actually use that audio. Run and gun doc without a sound person, very low budget indy film, one man band corporate, nature shooters who grab audio as well.

I am finding that Red is a lot more versatile than I originally thought it would be. The new audio board makes this even more the case. In this kind of economy, being versatile is a huge benefit.

As for Phantom Power, almost all professional cameras have an on/off switch. My only guess as to why Red has elected to automatically switch this off on powerdown is that it's not good practice to hook a condenser microphone to an already phantom powered input. Therefore, maybe what they are thinking is you'll hook up your mic before you turn on the camera and then you will go into the menu and turn on phantom power, which is the safe method for doing this. However, reality is that there will be times you'll want to change mics with camera still on or switch battery and use the same mic. So, it kind of gets back to the way most cameras act which is when it's switched on, it's up to you to properly hook up the microphones and follow phantom power procedures.

[Kyle Mallory]

My understanding of this, recalling a long ago discussion with someone from RED, was that this was an intentional decision as a result of the audio hiss when using Phantom power previous to the audio board upgrade, and that once all the camera's were up to date, it would be changed.

Basically, RED wanted to make sure that clean audio coming from a mixer or preamp didn't get trashed because someone left the phantom power on a line.

Don't hold me to this exactly, the discussion was nearly a year ago, my memory may be failing me.

[Michael Morlan]

Having to re-ignite phantom power adds unnecessary seconds to a battery swap/power cycle. Please leave phantom power in the existing state through power cycles.

Michael

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

I own lots of audio stuff. On ALL of them the phantom power stays the way it was through a power cycle. ( Well, ok, most all of them have dedicated switches, but never the less....)

Jochen

[JanneJansson]

Agree, strange safety feature. The biggest danger is not to fry some pice of tech with 48V. A bigger tragedy is LOOSING audio!!!!

[Paul Hazlett]

I can honestly say in the 20 plus years of using broadcast equipment I have never fried a
mic for having phantom or T power on when not needed.

Probably more to do with bad audio on the old boards. I betcha dollars to donuts this will go away in the next build.

[Brent J. Craig]

You guys need to stop calling bugs features. Having ANY critical camera setting change when rebooting is just plain wrong. The Red reboot is already the most painful 75 seconds on set, but having to reprogram the camera afterwards?!?

It is my understanding that properly built audio gear cannot be harmed by phantom power so I don't get the "it's a safety feature" comments.

[Tom Visser]

You guys need to stop calling bugs features. Having ANY critical camera setting change when rebooting is just plain wrong. The Red reboot is already the most painful 75 seconds on set, but having to reprogram the camera afterwards?!?

It is my understanding that properly built audio gear cannot be harmed by phantom power so I don't get the "it's a safety feature" comments.

In addition to a design decision that a manufacturer might make to not actively protect against it, it also requires a flaw or failure on the cable / connector, such as a shorted cable. I don't think that there is as much of an uproar about it now, though, because so few people are really attaching mics directly to the camera and really... you should not be - even if you are using that excuse that your "just a doc" guy or doing "run and gun". Run and gun is even a more compelling reason to get an external pre/mixer. You have such chaotic and varied situations, that you need to be able to react fast to changing acoustic situations.

Imagine, if you will, if you AC had to go into a menu system to change the focus. That really is the best parallel that I can make about those that insist on using on board camera mic pres and probably also not using a proper boom op. It is at the end of the day, a simple disrespect of the audio production process. When talking about a $30k+ camera system (much more to be realistic), the excuse, "we can't afford an audio guy" doesn't hold a lot of credence to me. Or at least, it illustrates that you went out and bought a Ferrari but forgot to budget enough for the gas you'll need to drive it.

My excuses aside, yes RED needs to change the menuing / settings on the next build. They are definitely the odd man out when it comes to the way their camera is set up and I'd rather bill the production $1,500 when they blow up an MKH 60 than to have to reshoot something, as realistically the first scenario would be few and far between, if ever.

[ericyoung]

Just been away for a week doing a test shoot with no money and not enough time and prep. It happens! There wasn't physically room for a sound guy and mixer and cables in some of our shooting situations. This "feature" screwed several otherwise useable takes. :-(

[Brent J. Craig]

There wasn't physically room for a sound guy and mixer and cables in some of our shooting situations.

That's why there's timecode and radio mics.

[Martin Weiss]

I just want to 31st this request. Cruicial timesaver, besides avoiding embarrassing second takes after a reboot.

[Stuart English]

You guys need to stop calling bugs features. Having ANY critical camera setting change when rebooting is just plain wrong.


O.K I'll offer you my standard answer to this kind of bug / feature debate then....


There are features, there are bugs and there are characteristics.

Features are pretty obvious - they provide a desired operational function.

Bugs are obvious too - something that is supposed to work doesn't.

Characteristics lie in the middle. As in that's an operational characteristic.

- This may be something you rather the system didn't do, but it is what the system is supposed to do in that circumstance.



Now to the Phantom Power issue. On Rev A audio boards, this is its operational characteristic.

However on Rev B audio boards the latest firmware - Build 18 V3.6.4 - will maintain Phantom Power (if enabled) across power cycles.

[ericyoung]

Thanks Stuart - I'm REALLY pleased phantom power will be staying on! Having to do retakes for losing sound has been a real pain.

[Martin Weiss]

I already thanked on another thread, but praise where praise is due:

Thank ye, RED team!

[Sam Roberts]

For those mounting a shotgun on the camera. Make sure your mic cradle is well cushioned as some cradles will pick up vibration from the RED Drive if it's mounted on the rails (at least with the carbon rails) which sounds like a nasty 20hz hum on the sound track.

[Paul Leeming]

Looks like build 3.6.4 is still buggy as it relates to Phantom power. When switched on, then camera is rebooted, it still shows 48V on the screen BUT it doesn't seem to be providing the power. Turning 48V off and on again enables it, so functionally there's no change from build 17 v3.4.1 to build 18 v3.6.4.

Tested using Mogami 48V mic.

HTH

Paul

[Stuart English]

Note that this function only works with the Rev B audio board.

But if you see this happening with a Rev B board (on cameras since Sept 15) please send me a P.M.

[Paul Leeming]

PM sent. All our cameras are Rev.B audio boards.