New 4K Indie

[pat@hpnc.com]

Just was looking at Postcards From The Future a new Indie shot with the Dalsa. And with very good effects. Here are the production notes. http://www.postcardsfromthefuture.net/prodnotes.php

[Justin Kirchhoff]

Looks pretty interesting. I always have loved those sci-fi diary type of movies.

This will probably be a good boost for Dalsa, but after knowing how their whole system works, it seems ridiculous anyone would want to haul a tank of a camera around when you can have RED to the same thing at 1/3 of the weight and bulk.

[JD Holloway]

38 minute "feature"......?

Films are getting shorter.

Good for them for going for it though.

[Rob Lohman]

In redcode raw those 200,000 frames would've been under 200 GB instead of 3.24 TB :)

[Jim Arthurs]

Interesting, they're obviously aiming for an IMAX release, based on the length of the project and calling it "large format". And independent or not, there's some deep pockets on this project somewhere...

I sure don't envy the data wrangling they had to do, compared to the upcoming RED workflow as Rob pointed out...

[Joe Carney]

Their work flow is exactly the one I'm going for (except using Red instead of Dalsa). The newest version of Lightwave (9.2) has significant improvements in final render, including the ability to match real world lens distortion and improved motion blur.
FPrime has been updated too.
If you have a legal copy of any of several Adobe apps, you can get Lightwave for 495.00 US.
FPrime is a fast third party renderer that's very popular among the Lightwave crowd.
Pretty cool stuff.

[Poi Boy]

Sounds very interesting, hope I get to see it in an imax format.
Aloha
-A

[Jason Murphy]

This will probably be a good boost for Dalsa, but after knowing how their whole system works, it seems ridiculous anyone would want to haul a tank of a camera around when you can have RED to the same thing at 1/3 of the weight and bulk.

I think the draw is that in terms of sheer image quality (particularly dynamic range), Dalsa's Origin still beats out the RED One (at least pre-delay). But I agree with you for the most part; the advantages of shooting on the RED system, even if the image isn't quite as good as the Origin, are going to be pretty obvious to anyone.

[Jim Arthurs]

For all the Dalsa buzz, the keys in the trailer are NOT very well done... much clamping at levels and loss of fine edge detail in virtually every example shot and still.

Except for the low noise and superior resolution, I can do far better than that all day long with a little old HVX200. Not sure where to aim blame on that score, as their green screen setups look adequate in the behind the scenes stills...

The noise level seems great, but I would have thought that having that highly valued "uncompressed workflow" would have given them some sort of an edge (pun intended) over the alternatives.

Can't wait to do something similar with REDCODE...

[Poi Boy]

Jason, why would you say the Dalsa beats the red? I think it is yet to be determined and I suspect will be too close to call.
Aloha
-A

[Jason Murphy]

Jason, why would you say the Dalsa beats the red? I think it is yet to be determined and I suspect will be too close to call.

First off, lest I am misunderstood here, just want to make it clear that I don't think that the Dalsa Origin is a better camera overall than the RED One (a lot more goes into that consideration than simply image quality). However, as things stand now, I still think that the Origin (or Origin II) has, and will have the edge (slightly) as far as image quality goes.

Dalsa's been in the digital imaging field for a long time; they've got some incredibly sharp people working for them, they really were the pioneers of 4K imaging for cinema, and they have had a 4K camera working for over 2 years. Certainly from a simple numbers point of view, Dalsa wins. 16 bit per pixel image, and at least 12 stops of dynamic range, and this is on a camera that's already working, and out in the field now.

But of course, numbers alone don't make an image, and I certainly don't have any tests or comparisons to back up my claim, and since the RED is still in engineering/improvement delay, these things may change, and it may indeed end up being too close to call. And I have only seen footage from the Origin 4K-projected; however, I was VERY impressed with how it handled highlights, and the dynamic range of the image overall.

But, several people whose opinions I respect (such as David Leitner, who is also very enthusiastic about the RED) have said similar things upon seeing both RED and Dalsa footage. Don't know what Mike Curtis' take on things is at this point, but pre-NAB I know he also was incredibly impressed with the Origin's image quality.

Of course, as everyone and their entire extended family has pointed out, the Origin is roughly the size of a small country, and even their new 512 GB FlashPak for "untethered" work looks to be almost the size of the RED One camera body. Their 4K workflow is just as cumbersome, since it's all uncompressed. But I think it's safe to say that not all of this is wasted space; the engineers at Dalsa are not inept. There is a payoff in terms of image quality.

Is it worth the hassle of lugging around a 50 pound camera, though? Probably not for 99% of productions.

[David Mullen ASC]

Yes, the numbers alone suggest that the Dalsa is probably capable of a greater dynamic range, but again, until there is comparative testing, it's just speculation. I've seen the Dalsa tests projected in 2K and they are impressive, but obviously RED has so many other things going for it in terms of size, convenience, cost, workflow, etc. that I think many people on a budget are not going to care that the Dalsa, let's say, has one more stop of dynamic range.

I've suggested to the Dalsa people that they buy some RED's to augment their rental package, just like they bought some Phantoms. The RED camera would make an excellent Steadicam/handheld camera, for example, leaving the Dalsa on the dolly for more studio-type shooting. I'm sure the footages from both can probably be tweaked to match well-enough.

It also seems that some version of REDCODE would make the Dalsa more production-friendly. Some type of wavelet compression and a flash mag can do a lot to free the Dalsa from the refridgerator-sized data recorders.

The whole uncompressed data workflow presents certain problems from a production standpoint. For example, someone has been talking to me about the possibility of shooting a feature using the Viper and S-Two data recorders, so I've been thinking about the problems of sending the 2nd Unit out to grab footage on their own with a tiny crew while we shoot -- would a flash mag like the Venom hold enough for an independent crew, or do they need to drag around an S-Two DFR?

[Graeme Nattress]

Jason, they may record 16 bits per pixel, but I severely doubt there's 16 bits worth of information in that pixel. Dynamic range and bit depth in digital cameras is noise limited, so, if your quantisation size (ie AtoD bit depth) is smaller than the the amount of noise, then you're wasting your time using that bit depth.

Graeme

[Poi Boy]

We'll have to wait and see a side by side coparrison but as I said I think it will too close to tell.
Aloha
-A

[Graeme Nattress]

So would I.... :-)

Graeme

[Mark K.]

What I can't quite get over is just how detailed these 4k images are - I mean the "aged" makeup on the lead actor in Postcards from the Future looks slightly ridiculous, and very obvious due to the image being so damn crisp. I noticed the same thing with the Milk Girls footage from Red - you can discern the individual blobs of mascara on the girl's eyelashes.

Do you guys think we'll be able to get around this just with diffuse filters or what?

[Poi Boy]

Just better make up.
Aloha
-A

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, it can be a problem even when shooting 35mm for the big screen -- make-up has to be well-done and diffusion used selectively if necessary (or soften the shot in post.)

The lightest, most "invisible" type of glass diffusion filter I've ever used is the Tiffen Black Diffusion-FX #1/2 (which is the lightest grade they make for that filter.) I tested a couple of filters for a 35mm project transferred to HD and this one was the most subtle. No pretty blooming or halation, no milkiness; all the filter does is soften fine detail without making the picture look out-of-focus.

Although I also found the lightest grade of Schneider Classic Soft fairly subtle as well. Classic Soft filters tend to create a "bubble" or ring effect around lights though.

The advantage of post softening is that if you use a good color-correction system like Baselight, you can circle each eyeball, track them as they move, and then only soften the face around the eyeballs, leaving them sharp. Conversely, if the shot was a little out-of-focus, you can circle each eyeball and sharpen them separately from the face. Viewers will accept a soft face if the eyes in the face are sharp.

You also have to factor in the degree of image enlargement and the final projection format when picking the level of softness or sharpness. You may see globs of eyelash mascara in a 4K still frame, but once it's transferred to 35mm, maybe duped through an IP and IN for release printing -- let's say, as one scenario -- and then projected at a mediocre multiplex, you'll have enough softening right there!

For this reason, as a general rule when testing diffusion filters, I pick the filter I like the most in the test... and then actually use the next grade lighter diffusion filter when shooting. Because you can always make something softer later, but it's harder to make it sharper, so under-diffuse rather than risk over-diffusing.

[laguun]

Viewers will accept a sharp face if their eyes are soft... scnr