To Graeme maybe, on the frame rate options @REDCODE

[Emanuel A.]

Following the lens format options concerning the frame size available:

http://www.red.com/formatoptions.shtml

...it's possible to understand that we just can go with 120fps @720p into REDCODE from the S16 frame size, not from the 35mm size.

It means we must need to use a lower rez S16 lens instead a higher 35mm size(d) one.

Why?


Any other thoughts?

[Rob Lohman]

Because the full sensor read-out (4[.5]K) is limited to 60 fps. The 2K window in the middle allows for speeds of up to 120 fps. And that's S16 or 2/3"

[Emanuel A.]

Thanks Rob -- welcome information!

Other (important) one: can I use a 16 lens over the 2/3" format? Because it can happen when we would like to shoot with a Standard 16 lens which doesn't cover the S16 format in order to go to the RGB (1080 and 720) application(s). 120fps, for example.

And in this case, since it seems that the 2K RAW is the better way to deal with re-sizes and other stuff @post, can we do the same from a RGB realm*?

Here is an interesting link launched by "our" ;-) Evin approaching the possibility in order to probe the alternative -- going not only but also to special purposes:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1004


* For instance, in order to deal with vignetting hassles.

[Rob Lohman]

I don't know about standard 16 lens. I'm not following your "RGB realm*" question?

[Emanuel A.]

Rob,

RAW will be an "elastic" format right? Things like changing formats, cropping, etc will be easier from RAW acquisition @REDCINE, correct?

And about RGB, is there the "same open door" @post?

Or not?

I mean, can I change from 1920 x 1080 RGB, for example to a non-standard format like 1778 x 1000 -- for vignetting reasons (well, in this case it would be a huge case of vignetting... :) but anyway...), and going back to the same original 1920 x 1080?

E.

[Matthew Rogers]

Because the full sensor read-out (4[.5]K) is limited to 60 fps. The 2K window in the middle allows for speeds of up to 120 fps. And that's S16 or 2/3"

Does that mean if we have a 35MM lens on the camera, that we won't be able to do the 120fps? Or, will it be a cropped image like you get in the DSLR cameras (basically they only use the middle of the lens.)

Matthew

[Emanuel A.]

Yup, you're there:

http://www.red.com/formatoptions.shtml

[Teague Kennedy]

Does that mean if we have a 35MM lens on the camera, that we won't be able to do the 120fps? Or, will it be a cropped image like you get in the DSLR cameras (basically they only use the middle of the lens.)

Matthew

I think you will be able to use a 35mm still lense and shoot windowed 2k. It will crop quite a bit more than DSLR does. Don't look for wide shots doing this.

[Jarred Land]

I think you will be able to use a 35mm still lense and shoot windowed 2k. It will crop quite a bit more than DSLR does. Don't look for wide shots doing this.

You can use 35mm lenses to shoot windowed.. your thinking of it backwards. In fact, shooting 2k windowed using the center of a 35mm lens element will give a technically superior optical image, as you are only using the sweet spot of the lens.

[Rob Lohman]

Emanuel: sorry, I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're asking. Any cropping or resizing of an image has almost nothing to do with RGB or RAW. That's a simple post operation that REDCINE can handle fine.

So yes, you can crop your 1920 x 1080 to 1778 x 1000 if you wanted to. If your second part of that question is if you can scale that back up to 1920 x 1080 then the answer is no, but you wouldn't need to either. Set the project to 1920 x 1080 and simply scale the footage up (zoom in) a bit. It will overflow the edge of the 1920 x 1080 project frame and thus remove any vignetting. You can toggle if you see the overflow or not.

[Emanuel A.]

Emanuel: sorry, I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're asking. Any cropping or resizing of an image has almost nothing to do with RGB or RAW. That's a simple post operation that REDCINE can handle fine.

So yes, you can crop your 1920 x 1080 to 1778 x 1000 if you wanted to. If your second part of that question is if you can scale that back up to 1920 x 1080 then the answer is no, but you wouldn't need to either. Set the project to 1920 x 1080 and simply scale the footage up (zoom in) a bit. It will overflow the edge of the 1920 x 1080 project frame and thus remove any vignetting. You can toggle if you see the overflow or not.Now that's my turn Rob... ;-) You're saying we can't scale that back up to 1920 x 1080...



Do you mean REDCODE@REDCINE?

@RGB?

And as far as @2K_RAW is concerned?



...and then we CAN simply scale up a bit...?? :unsure:



On the other hand, I thought it would be a different case between RAW & RGB @REDCINE -- and that was one of the major differences between both.

[Henry Chung HKSC]

"You can use 35mm lenses to shoot windowed.. your thinking of it backwards. In fact, shooting 2k windowed using the center of a 35mm lens element will give a technically superior optical image, as you are only using the sweet spot of the lens."

Jarred,

If we shoot with 35mm lenses for 16mm, the internal flare is higher due to more light bouncing off internally and so although it is the sweet spot of the
lens, the flare level, especially backlit scenes are not as satisfactory.

I hope that the internal reflection of the Red One is extremely low reflection coating otherwise it is only good for the highest quality lenses that will be used.

I had experienced that using a Hasselbald lens with adaptor on a Nikon camera, it is similar principle.

Also for wide angle, we had to use very wide lens and the flare is much higher with them too.

Cheers,
Henry

[Mr. Paul White]

Emanuel: sorry, I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're asking. Any cropping or resizing of an image has almost nothing to do with RGB or RAW. That's a simple post operation that REDCINE can handle fine.

So yes, you can crop your 1920 x 1080 to 1778 x 1000 if you wanted to. If your second part of that question is if you can scale that back up to 1920 x 1080 then the answer is no, but you wouldn't need to either. Set the project to 1920 x 1080 and simply scale the footage up (zoom in) a bit. It will overflow the edge of the 1920 x 1080 project frame and thus remove any vignetting. You can toggle if you see the overflow or not.

Only at 1080 RGB or also at 2K REDCODE RAW? 4K REDCODE RAW too?

[Corrado Silveri]

Set the project to 1920 x 1080 and simply scale the footage up (zoom in) a bit. It will overflow the edge of the 1920 x 1080 project frame and thus remove any vignetting. You can toggle if you see the overflow or not.

Better if you do this trick with Shake... Scaling direclty in the timeline of your NLE (FCP, for example) will be quite a bad work.
Just my two cents.

[Mr. Paul White]

Can you explain yourself?

[Corrado Silveri]

Shake use a technology called "Optical Flow Technology" that is a lot better than a simple scale up in an NLE.
BTW, you can find similar technology in various software on the market, not only in Shake (Furnace plugins, AE...).
It's more like a dynamic interpolation of pixels, than a zoom in.
Please, take a look here:

http://www.fxguide.com/article315.html

You can read all the article (good reading...) or jump directly to the "tips for Shake" section, some lines down.

Hoping this will explain better...

[Graeme Nattress]

The article is misleading about optical flow. Optical flow is a motion estimation technology and not a scaling technology. What they are demonstrating in that image is how when optical flow is used to de-interlace and image (you can see clearly in the picture it's interlaced source) that they're getting better results than by using a simple blend de-interlace. They're not showing that optical flow is a scaling technology, because it's not.

The problem with optical flow is that it can work very well, or it can screw up completely and produce bubbling artifacts. You've got to be careful with it, but used with care, it's slow but powerful.

Graeme

[Emanuel A.]

Thanks Graeme. Will we have any dedicated solution from yours?

[Graeme Nattress]

Upscaling or deinterlace? They're both things I have R&D on.

Graeme

[Miltos Pilalitos]

Hey Graeme, what's your opinion about www.motiondsp.com?

I think their technology is amazing!

[Graeme Nattress]

Interesting, but there's no real info on what they're doing. Sounds like a super-resolution technique on low resolution video to fake a higher resolution.

[Emanuel A.]

Upscaling or deinterlace? They're both things I have R&D on.

GraemeYup, both shall be a real need.

Thanks,
Emanuel

[Corrado Silveri]

The article is misleading about optical flow. Optical flow is a motion estimation technology and not a scaling technology. What they are demonstrating in that image is how when optical flow is used to de-interlace and image (you can see clearly in the picture it's interlaced source) that they're getting better results than by using a simple blend de-interlace. They're not showing that optical flow is a scaling technology, because it's not.

The problem with optical flow is that it can work very well, or it can screw up completely and produce bubbling artifacts. You've got to be careful with it, but used with care, it's slow but powerful.

Graeme

Thanks Graeme,
you are, as usual, illuminating me...

Btw, I've just read on a Shake doc, that the Optical Flow Technology are involved also in the scaling process (I think using the FileIn otpions):
Quote: Image Processing Technology
Shake 4.1 uses the power and elegance of optical flow image processing to create stunning quality for retiming and resizing, shot stabilization, and panorama compositing.

Is that totally uncorrect? My experience is that the scaling (and the retiming, obvious) made by Shake is a lot better than the simple scale on a FCP timeline. It's just a better interpolation algorithm (or it's just me)?

Thanks and thanks again,
Elcurado.

[Rob Lohman]

To answer the earlier questions. You can scale and resize up & down in REDCINE with whatever resolution your RED footage is in.

Emanuel: for post production applications (like REDCINE) there is no real difference between RAW & RGB since you convert RAW into RGB before processing.

That means you can do the same thing to one format that you can do to the other.

What I was saying is that you cannot crop / down-sample in REDCINE and then up-sample that because you only have one control to do that with and not two.

In other words, you set the project / output resolution and then you can move & size the input data within that output "frame" (no, you can't animate / keyframe that). This allows you to crop, reposition & resize. But you can't do multiples of those. That's why it is a RAW processing application and not a full blown compositing application.

[Graeme Nattress]

Shake has a lot of special interpolation filters. As for using optical flow for scaling - who really knows what Apple is doing inside there. I just don't know of any optical flow scaling algorithms, but I do know of it being used for retiming and de-interlacing (basicially retiming both fields to match in the middle).

Graeme

[Rogelio Salinas]

You can use 35mm lenses to shoot windowed.. your thinking of it backwards. In fact, shooting 2k windowed using the center of a 35mm lens element will give a technically superior optical image, as you are only using the sweet spot of the lens.

So what your saying is that we can still use 35mm lenses to shoot 2K 60P. Would this still use the 35mm sensor and would it blend in well with 4K footage using the same lens?

[David Mullen ASC]

You can always use less of a lens' coverage, which is why it is common to put 35mm cine lenses on a Super-16 camera. You just can't go the other way because of vignetting problems.

The main thing to consider when switching between 2K windowed mode and 4K is that in 2K windowed mode, your field of view gets cut in half so the lens behaves more telephoto in view. So the same 50mm lens in 4K mode becomes an "effective" 100mm lens in terms of field of view when in 2K windowed mode (i.e. it's still a 50mm lens of course, just that a 50mm is more telephoto on a smaller target area like 16mm or 2/3" video, etc. compared to a 35mm-sized target area.)

[Antoine Fabi]

You can always use less of a lens' coverage, which is why it is common to put 35mm cine lenses on a Super-16 camera. You just can't go the other way because of vignetting problems.

The main thing to consider when switching between 2K windowed mode and 4K is that in 2K windowed mode, your field of view gets cut in half so the lens behaves more telephoto in view. So the same 50mm lens in 4K mode becomes an "effective" 100mm lens in terms of field of view when in 2K windowed mode (i.e. it's still a 50mm lens of course, just that a 50mm is more telephoto on a smaller target area like 16mm or 2/3" video, etc. compared to a 35mm-sized target area.)

exactly...so i can't figure why i'd be limited to windowed FOV.

[Jay A. Kelley]

I have asked this question in another thread, but it died, so I am trying on this one now:

Graeme, or Rob, have the various frame rates been tested with RED and given a go-no go for use? Just wanna make sure we've moved beyond theory and someone can say "Yep, all the frame rates work, I've seen 'em"

Please answer this

Jay

[David Mullen ASC]

exactly...so i can't figure why i'd be limited to windowed FOV.

You're limited only if you want to shoot at 120 fps.

Or if you put on a lens that was designed for a smaller target area than 35mm cine, like a 16mm or 2/3" lens.

As for the question is to whether a regular 16mm lens would cover the 2K windowed area, it's borderline so you'd have to test. Some might and some might vignette, just like when you use regular 16mm lenses on a Super-16 camera.

[Jay A. Kelley]

Rob, Graeme,

Answer to my question? Anyone?

Are the frame rates tested and confirmed working?

Jay

[Rob Lohman]

Why do you need an answer to that? We told you the specs for the product and we will do our best to deliver what we promise.

If there is news in whatever direction Jim or Jarred will let you know as they've always done.

Personally I don't have the answer (I'm busy programming) and if others want to respond they will, or not. There are a million things going on and being tested every day.

I'm afraid you'll have to live with that answer for now...

[Emanuel A.]

To answer the earlier questions. You can scale and resize up & down in REDCINE with whatever resolution your RED footage is in.

Emanuel: for post production applications (like REDCINE) there is no real difference between RAW & RGB since you convert RAW into RGB before processing.

That means you can do the same thing to one format that you can do to the other.

What I was saying is that you cannot crop / down-sample in REDCINE and then up-sample that because you only have one control to do that with and not two.

In other words, you set the project / output resolution and then you can move & size the input data within that output "frame" (no, you can't animate / keyframe that). This allows you to crop, reposition & resize. But you can't do multiples of those. That's why it is a RAW processing application and not a full blown compositing application.Thanks Rob! As matter of fact, it's not so easy to follow your tech talk ;-) but I'm doing my best and I hope I've been understanding what you're saying. So cropping + frame reposition + full resize (both directions: down and up), only @post production?

Corrado suggestion's Shake?

Graeme, I didn't understand if your R & D on a solution over size scaling and de-interlacing if it is related to your own company or RED?

[Graeme Nattress]

R&D on Scaling and Deinterlacing are Graeme things, not RED things.

Graeme

[Emanuel A.]

I already had suspected... Thanks. So Mac solutions right? (not available @PC side?)

[Graeme Nattress]

I personally don't do windows. Red does do windows.

Graeme

[Jay A. Kelley]

Why do you need an answer to that? We told you the specs for the product and we will do our best to deliver what we promise.

If there is news in whatever direction Jim or Jarred will let you know as they've always done.

Personally I don't have the answer (I'm busy programming) and if others want to respond they will, or not. There are a million things going on and being tested every day.

I'm afraid you'll have to live with that answer for now...

Ouch... ok.. Well I guess there are many ways to say "shut up" and this is one of them
Jay

[Rob Lohman]

I didn't mean to offend Jay :) Was a bit tired. Just wanted to indicate I don't suspect you'll get an answer soon. Everyone is running around doing lots of stuff. When there is news to report we want to report we will!


Emanuel: yes, you can do all that in REDCINE.