How many camera's

[podrush.net]

I am doing some background research and wondering - How many Red ONE's are there out in the field right now?
and on a similar note, anyone have an idea as to how many of the following camera's there are out there working in production?

Arri D20
Dalsa
Genesis
RED (as above)
Sony F23/F35
Viper


Just taking a shot to see if anyone has any realistic numbers- I am struggling to get straight answers.

thanks in advance
Graham

[Curran Giddens]

I think there are a bit less than 6,000 RED ONE's out in the field right now.

I saw someone with #5724? post on here a week or two ago.

[Constantine Philips]

I have heard these numbers from some tech expert ....

Arri D20/D21 5-8
Dalsa 2-5
Genesis 25-30
RED 4000+ :D (some didnt buy it)
Sony F23 20-25
Sony F35 5-7
Viper ?

[Jannard]

I have heard these numbers from some tech expert ....

Arri D20/D21 5-8
Dalsa 2-5
Genesis 25-30
RED 4000+ :D (some didnt buy it)
Sony F23 20-25
Sony F35 5-7
Viper ?

I think your numbers are off. And no one has gotten a free RED ONE.

Jim

[Tim Whitcomb]

IMO these kinds of questions are NYOB

Red is a privately held company as are almost all those companies...(save Sony) so they don't have to tell you squat.

You may want to explain "why" you want these answers.

Is it becasue:

1. So you can write a negative article?
2. is it for Research for High School science fair?
3. To Determining resale value?
4. Do determine how long you will have to wait for a Scarlett or Epic?

What exactly is the research for? (i this question bothers you, then expect even fewer straight answers)

Being more straigthforward, might yield more straightforward answers... just a thought

[Jim McKinney]

I'd like to extend the benefit of the doubt, and assume there is nothing nefarious to the question posed by this thread.

Actually, the accessibility of the Red (they are all over the world now, with people who know how to use them), is a BIG advantage. (It's why I went with Arri 16mm cameras over 15 years ago.)

[Steve Sherrick]

To give Graham the benifit of the doubt here, he may be doing a podcast or article that might mention how many Red cams are out there compared to other cameras and he just wants to get his facts straight. Seems innocent enough.

Jim, Constantine seems to be saying that the numbers of Reds out there may be tough to nail down by serial numbers because some have not taken delivery yet. I don't think he meant that anyone got cameras for free.

[podrush.net]

Hi Tim , No Issues and secrecy here, but you are right, I should have clarified...
I work with a company that supplies and integrates and supports broadcast, film and post production gear and workflows. You will find me at www.root6.com. my name is Graham McGuinness. My primary role amongst many others is building and supporting workflows and helping (through direct feedback from the coalface) develop tools for workflows.
Quite simply put, the number of camera's out there creates direct correlation on the types of work flows I have to help modify (as each has their own unique twist mostly.)
I obviously have a clear idea that there are a lot more RED devices out there than the rest, but I was keen to understand exactly how many, because that helps me understand how much of what is going to come from where. It will also assuage the curiosity of the 'undercover economist' in me understand a little more clearly, the ever changing dynamics of the market we all are working in...Speaking of markets, I do get involved in marketing activities, seminars etc...but really I wouldn't consider quoting stuff back from the forum without some sort of citation or reference that I was going to do so (and a clear indication that this was the aim...)
I have no axe to grind and no agenda here. As I have worked in post in London for 15 years or so, and depend on it for my future, I know that my reputation and sanity (and that of our company)depends on me inhabiting a bulls*** free zone.
Hope this makes sense
thanks and regards
Graham

[Michael Lindsay]

Graham is a good guy and Root 6 is one of the few companies selling into post-production that aren't just box shifters. They develop software and create thought through solutions for their customers.

As for only 5-7 f35s or any of the other numbers?

I don't know the answer but those figures seem 'put money down' wrong!

regards

Michael L

[Tim Whitcomb]

No worries, Graham, I just was trying to help... but agree, I think thpse numbers are light all around...

The F35 is limited because Sony is not trying to cannibalize the F900 market which is quite lucrative for them at the moment with service and repair... big boys (studios) are a different game... when they spend $millions and millions... you dont want to be replacing those cameras with better ones every two years...

To me, thats why RED rocks... they are making cameras THEY WANT TO USE... and letting the market find them... and given the rabid fan base... me thinks they are
going to dominate for some time... and lets face it, Hollywood is NOTORIOUSLY late adopters...

has been since "talkies" and then "color"... and then VHS and will continue...

good luck with your research!

[Jay A. Kelley]

Given the age of the camera, I think that if RED passed 3000 it would be amazing.

Wonderful

Jay

[Manuel Wenger]

Arri D21 are at least 100+ cameras arround, almost all D20 are upgraded to D21 since its primary software update. Did shoot with S.N. 79 over a year ago.

[Jonathon Laing]

Holy shit, I just worked out how much Red has approximatly made from RED one sales (just the body). This isn't including deposits from R1's or modules.

6000 units x $17500 = $105000000

I would say congrats Red but hey I dont know how much they have spent on engineering, research, scietists what ever. But still, I thought it was interesting.


Jono

[Roberto Lequeux]

I think it would be fair to say that they spend several times that much in R&D + costs.
Don't forget the accessories where hopefully they made up a bit of ground.

[Illya Friedman]

I have heard these numbers from some tech expert ....

Arri D20/D21 5-8
Dalsa 2-5
Genesis 25-30
RED 4000+ :D (some didnt buy it)
Sony F23 20-25
Sony F35 5-7
Viper ?


All of your numbers are incorrect. By a very wide margin.

I.

[podrush.net]

Thanks for the nod Michael!
But yes it hightlights the the issue that just trying t get a handle on the numbers out there is an interesting question- Further I had heard circa 80 cameras for the Arri. and about the same for the Panavision.
Thanks and appreciate the feedback thus far
Graham

[Mick van Rossum, NSC]

From what I heard from a manager at the Thomson Viper plant there are 120 vipers worldwide.....

[CK Olsen]

I took delivery of my Red (#5160) late last year, so you'd think that there would be AT LEAST 5,159 OTHER Red One cameras out in the field by now... but it does kinda feel like a lot of deposit holders have not yet taken delivery.

Now, it really doesn't matter to me one way or another, cuz as long as I have MY camera in hand, I'm jus' fine, but I admit I'm a little curious how many Red one's have officially shipped out to the rest of the world.

Maybe I am more curious 'cuz I've gotten the impression that the upcoming "epic/scarlet upgrade/crossgrade" programs would go in effect according to date of purchase, not serial number?

Anyway. We humans are curious little buggers, and we just kinda like to know "stuff", if only to be able to tell our "stuff" to others...

-CK

[Marcus Olsen]

All of your numbers are incorrect. By a very wide margin.

I.

Ilya,

Aren't you from DALSA? We've met at some NAB, 2007 maybe, I've got your business card somewhere, hard to forget such an unusual name!!

Cheers!

M.O.

[Jeff Coatney]

This is an interesting exercise. While the number of available cameras in a given market can determine overall market share based on units sold, the decision to use the camera, or hire it to shoot the project is not solely determined on availability or price. For this reason, Red not only has to field a huge amount of cameras, they must also knock down the obstacles against using it on a given project. In the most specific sense, Red is competing against high definition digital video cameras adapted for cinema and favored film stocks.

In this sense, it is irrelevant how many Red cameras or Sony cameras or Dalsa, Genesis, etc. that there are in any given market. The task for Red and Sony and Dalsa and anyone else making a camera, is to convince the creative team to use their technology because it delivers the highest quality image for the least amount of production dollars.

The economic argument is a simple one to make, one camera and post workflow is either cheaper or its not, when compared to another camera system. The gray areas are in the technical benefits and the subjective aesthetic benefits.

The technical benefits are subjective because there is currently no standard for digital cameras to measure differing acquisition methodologies against. When the end result is judged subjectively, it can be argued that one method of capturing images is just as valid as the next. As it stands now, there is no way to determine with precision how a film was acquired if all you're doing is comparing the end results to one another.

We have inconclusive debates constantly about resolution, noise, oversampling, compression, dynamic range and so on, yet no one can debate the fact that the end results from the broadest spectrum of cameras is quite comparable to each other.

If I were to predict a market leader in this race, all factors point toward RED. Red delivers a markedly superior image for a laughably low dollar value and there are enough cameras in the market right now to affect a competitor's ability to move against them with a similar business plan.

Will people use Red? As long as Red focuses on quality and are capable of delivering in quantity, they will have few challengers, so yes, everyone will use Red because they are/will be the best. If the question about the number of Red's in the world is a metric necessary to judge or predict the viability of an ancillary business, then you already have your answer. It doesn't matter who wins the camera/ acquisition race, you're probably not being general enough in your approach to the market.

If your fortunes rise or fall based on which camera everyone is going to be using in two, three or five years, you have failed preemptively, because you are in the predicting business. You cannot predict the trajectory of technical innovation. The answer is every camera maker currently in the game will probably still be in the game in five years unless they decide not to play. Red is making it very difficult for people to play the camera making game.

This will affect every link in the movie making chain, from pre-production to post and exhibition. The center of gravity in the modernization of the film industry is currently in acquisition. All other aspects of filmmaking must respond to what is happening in acquisition technology because of Jim Jannard sticking his foot on the development cycle accelerator and pushing it to the floor. He is the leader right now and for the foreseeable future.

The individual disciplines needed to make films will remain but the tools are undergoing rapid, reactive change. Old market leaders are going to quickly become irrelevant as these changes hit the street. The operative word for success in this climate is "Agility". Red has it, Sony doesn't, Panasonic doesn't, Panavision doesn't. Red is so agile, they made their next generation of cameras literally agile.

You can't make a living shining shoes when everybody is trading in their Florsheims for Nikes. Make good decisions.

[Rich Schaefer]

I last week heard Clairmont now has 14 D21s. I think they also have 10 Reds

[Oli Laperal Jr]

Charles Darwin:
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most ADAPTABLE to CHANGE.”

Oli

Oli Laperal Jr
R.S. Video & Film
Philippines

[Roxco]

The individual disciplines needed to make films will remain but the tools are undergoing rapid, reactive change. Old market leaders are going to quickly become irrelevant as these changes hit the street. The operative word for success in this climate is "Agility". Red has it, Sony doesn't, Panasonic doesn't, Panavision doesn't. Red is so agile, they made their next generation of cameras literally agile.

You can't make a living shining shoes when everybody is trading in their Florsheims for Nikes. Make good decisions.

If Red gets to set the standards for the new "film" workflow then they will do fine even if they get out of the sensor business. Eventually Red = Microsoft!

Ducking for cover,

Rosco

[podrush.net]

Great post Jeff, lucid and well developed- acquisition technology is truly at the forefront of the modernization of the film industry as we know it today, and indeed all other disciplines are affected by the consequences.
Good reading, even though we still don't know how many of the things there are out there. I agree, numbers for sure are not everything, but they are good solid indicators of where the rate of change is. The facinating thing is that we are at the nascent point of this process, and in 25 years time, it will be inconcievable for all participants not to shoot on high resolution camera's as much as it will be inconcievable that anything should be accidentally lost from a disk ;-)

[stateofeight]

Let us also not lose sight of the fact that companies like Sony Pana etc. have had to try to figure out how to re-align their business models so that they are not reliant on disposable media. This area of the market represents a serious area of loss for these manufacturers. The tape formats disappearing and being replaced with solid state mechanics that need little replacement/repair mandates downsizing and reduction.