Trying to match RED 1080 RGB to HV20 and REDCODE 4K?

[Tom Lowe]

So I've been thinking about getting a Canon HV20 this summer, and shooting some cutaways for my RED feature, which will shoot principal photography next August, in 2008. I will be location scouting for over a month in the mountains and deserts and national parks like Yosemite this summer, so I might as well get some location footage with a simple dolly and stuff if I can. Who knows, I may capture a one-in-a-million shot out in nature.

So my question: If I am shooting deep-focus landscape stuff on an HV20, wide landscapes and forests and rivers and such (not worrying about DoF at all), how will the footage hold up against RED's 1080 RGB if my eventual plan is to finish at 2K? I plan to shoot most of the picture at 4K REDCODE, and shoot all my overcranked stuff at 1080 RGB, then finish at 2K.

Is there any reason why the HV20 would seriously not hold up at 2K? I know low light can be an issue with it, which sucks for me because I like to shoot during magic hours/sunsets. Also, motion seems to cause problems with it, but I can try to shoot very smoothly with the HV20.

Thoughts?

The only thing that sucks about the HV20, IMO, is that it shoots to tape rather than harddrive or solid-state. But the new Canon camera that shoots with harddrive (the sister camera of the HV20) has issues with sound inputs and too much compression, if I recall?

[Barend Onneweer]

Is there any reason why the HV20 would seriously not hold up at 2K?

Well... depends on what you consider 'holding up'. No doubt you can shoot pretty pictures with an HV20. But I don't think Redcode will compare to HDV...

You may be able to make it work - but I doubt you'll get it to intercut seamlessly, unless you degrade your RED footage substantially.

[David Newman]

Keep you HV20 cuts short and likely no one will notice, although avoid in camera HDV compression if you can and shoot to disk via HDMI so you have more room for post enhancement. Lack of sharpness between an HV20 and the lens you to shoot on RED will be the biggest tell, so short sharpen elements will intercut fine if you keep video clipping to a minimum.

[Tom Lowe]

Honestly, shooting via HDMI is probably not going to be an option for me. I'll be taking the camera out to remote locations in the Sierras and in national parks and stuff. I guess what I'm thinking is that I might just happen to run across a really spectacular nature scene, and the only camera I can really think of to try to capture it, this summer, would be the HV20. How much is the onboard compression going to kill me?

Another thing I can keep in mind is that I could very well be making both 2K and 1080p masters. Let's face it: unless I get picked up for theatre distribution, this picture will probably live out its life at 1080p on HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray. Do you think the HV20 could hold up at 1080p?

[Alex Boothby]

Hi Tom. This is a compromise, but digitally tiling works quite well. Simply shoot a wide lockoff reference plate, and then shoot tighter quadrants (or eighths... sixteenths... etc) of the same scene at the end of your zoom - top right, bottom left, etc. In post you can digitally tile or stitch the shots together again to create much higher resolution. I have shot video tiled plates using the XL1, to create wonderful high res landscape shots. In most cases, I would then do a digital camera move in post.

Ideally plates would be shot using a proper nodal point tripod head, but this is not absolutely necessary as most digital stitching software does a pretty good job. Just make sure to allow for some 'overlap' between each tiled quadrant (10 or 20%). I often mix this technique with high-res stills from an SLR, only using the video for moving elements (glass, clouds, water, etc.) Tiling is great - even if don't know the post side yet, you can still shoot all your plates this summer, and stitch them later.

[David Newman]

the 1920 vs 2048 thing is not an issue or film out or digital projection, it is only 7% difference, shoot either and resize as needed. The HDV compression will only reduce the image's flexibility, but not completely remove its usefuliness. It is better to shoot what you can with the best you have available, while keeping costs in mind. I think you will find HV20 still quite usable.

[Alex Boothby]

Also if you're really clever (and your landscape doesn't changes too much over time) you can also shoot bracketted exposures of each tiled segment. This will effectively fake the higher dr of Red. Sure, this is a lot of work but it works. I would shoot with auto-exposure off and use the built in ND filters to bracket (or even bring a matte box and use your own filters.)

[donatello b]

i just got a HV20 ... images are very good for a 1000 camera ..
however i don't think they are as good as 1/4" 3 cmos , or 1/3" 3 CCD HD camera's ... and they are not as good as 1/2" HD camera , nor as good as 2/3" HD camera's etc ..
so it all comes down to which is "good enough " for your 1080 DVD ?

i would do med-c/u shots on hv20.... and do the wide vista shots on a better camera ...

in general i find that 1080 ( shot on 2/3" camera's) do not hold up on wide shots on the big silver screen ..... viewing on 42-60" 1080p LCD/plasma's the wide shot do hold up ...

[Tom Lowe]

I guess the question is: will HV20 footage shot medium to wide of landscapes and rivers and forests and deserts hold for a 1080p or 2K master, if your final product is going to be a 1080p HD disc for home viewing? The good news is that DoF is not an issue on wide nature shots.

Like David said, if the stuff you capture is absolutely brilliant and you get really lucky with the subject matter you are shooting, that is a huge thing. It might be worth a hit in terms of resolution and dynamic range, I suppose.

The problem is, I won't be able to use filters with this thing, so skies could easily get blown out. :(

[kmikami]

Also if you're really clever (and your landscape doesn't changes too much over time) you can also shoot bracketted exposures of each tiled segment. This will effectively fake the higher dr of Red.

How do you combine multiple bracketed shots? I know that you can make hdr stills using hdrshop but is there a way to do it with video? Or do you just render out an image sequence and process one frame at a time? It seems to me that it won't really work if anything is moving in the shot so you may as well shoot a still.

[Poi Boy]

I say have a great time with it , take a tripod, make sure you don't over expose and maybe you'll get lucky. You're sure to get some beautiful shots but no one can really tell you how it is going to intercut. Sounds like big fun to me, nothing to lose.
Aloha
-A

[Tom Lowe]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. If I happen to get lucky with a great shot or two, I will have to see how it cuts at 2K or 1080.

[M Most]

The problem is, I won't be able to use filters with this thing, so skies could easily get blown out. :(

You can use filters, albeit rather non-standard, 43mm filters. And you certainly can forget about things like grads. However, you can get ND (I've seen ND8 available) and circular Pola, as well as some others in this size. Word on the street is that there is either internal ND in the camera (nobody has confirmed or denied this to my knowledge), and the "automatic" setting seems to do pretty well in bright sunlight (I assume by changing the shutter, but once again, this is neither confirmed or denied).

[Tom Lowe]

So no grads at all at that size? That would be the first filter I would look for, for landscape stuff.

[Alex Boothby]

How do you combine multiple bracketed shots? I know that you can make hdr stills using hdrshop but is there a way to do it with video?

Admittedly nothing as scientific as hdr software. I just mix different takes in compositing software like Flame or Shake. If the sky is blown out on the master take, you can mix in the darker sky from the bracketed plate. In this way you can mix and render your 8bit source clips to a 12bit result clip. Not perfect but a useful tool for sculpting your image in post.


It seems to me that it won't really work if anything is moving in the shot so you may as well shoot a still.

Mixing motion footage - I'm often surprised what a good compositor can blend together from different takes. Organic stuff often blends well, such as water, streams, waterfalls, distant trees, clouds, etc, etc.

For the record, this bracketing technique is only semi-useful, and a deal of work. I have only used it a few times with video landscape plates. But the tiling / stitching technique (my original point) is rock solid, very useful, extremely effective, and rather easy to shoot and stitch in post.

[ColinSmith]

A Cokin P filter holder should get you some ND grads in a nice small package that'll fit 43mm.
The Cokins filters are cheap and scratch easy, but for the HV20 might do OK. There are other makers doing P sized filters though.... Singh-Ray, Hitech... Lee?

For doing bracketed exposures the usual thing would be to lock off the shot, expose once for the land, once for the sky, something like that, and then bring the 2 clips in After Effects for example and draw a mask to control which exposure gets used for which part of the shot.
Very workable on locked shots, but takes a little time.

Ah, and one more tripod idea... if you can do some frame blending on your locked shot it should smooth out the worst of the artifacting and resolution issues by effectively giving you some oversampling on the video.....

[Tom Lowe]

Thanks, Colin, I'll look into those filters.

My best HVX stuff was shot with 6" half black pro mist. what small filter might be comparable for softening the 1080p footage?

[Emanuel A.]

Same boat.

[ColinSmith]

I found a list of the Hitech filters here (http://www.teamworkphoto.com/hitech.html)
The 85mm filters are the "P" sized ones

Maybe the "movie mist black" is in the right area? I'm not sure you'll get the same range of grading options on the smaller sizes though....

Ah, and having said that, the next link turns up a US dealer, with 4 grades of all the Hitech mist filters
2filter.com (http://www.2filter.com/prices/Hitech/HitechP.html)

[tj williams]

If this is mostly just landscape plates why not shoot with a digital slr at the highest frame rate and get a little more shadow motion and motion in the clouds etc. Then the rez will be pretty close to RED. Even enought room to move around in post a little.

[Emanuel A.]

Good idea TJ.


So I've been thinking about getting a Canon HV20 this summer, and shooting some cutaways for my RED feature, which will shoot principal photography next August, in 2008. I will be location scouting for over a month in the mountains and deserts and national parks like Yosemite this summer, so I might as well get some location footage with a simple dolly and stuff if I can. Who knows, I may capture a one-in-a-million shot out in nature.

So my question: If I am shooting deep-focus landscape stuff on an HV20, wide landscapes and forests and rivers and such (not worrying about DoF at all), how will the footage hold up against RED's 1080 RGB if my eventual plan is to finish at 2K? I plan to shoot most of the picture at 4K REDCODE, and shoot all my overcranked stuff at 1080 RGB, then finish at 2K.

Is there any reason why the HV20 would seriously not hold up at 2K? I know low light can be an issue with it, which sucks for me because I like to shoot during magic hours/sunsets. Also, motion seems to cause problems with it, but I can try to shoot very smoothly with the HV20.

Thoughts?

The only thing that sucks about the HV20, IMO, is that it shoots to tape rather than harddrive or solid-state. But the new Canon camera that shoots with harddrive (the sister camera of the HV20) has issues with sound inputs and too much compression, if I recall?

I'd say you've been a good reader of all these forums. ;-) I share the same bet and concerns.

[Tom Lowe]

If this is mostly just landscape plates why not shoot with a digital slr at the highest frame rate and get a little more shadow motion and motion in the clouds etc. Then the rez will be pretty close to RED. Even enought room to move around in post a little.

Well, I'm actually talking about shooting rivers and moving water and moving leaves in the trees and stuff, in 24p. Mainly landscapes, but also medium-shot nature stuff.

[Emanuel A.]

BTW, Malick rules! :wink:

[Tom Lowe]

BTW, Malick rules! :wink:

Very true! support my MALICK VIDEO (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2477)... it needs some help here! :)

[Jarred Land]

TJ's idea is great.

using a HV20 for pickup shots and random filler is kinda like using a $100 2 megapixel point and shoot camera to fill in for a pro DSLR.. you might get away with one or two shots, but its not something you want to do very often.

That said... there is a place for everything, and i would much rather put an HV20 in a car thats about to be blown to pieces than a Red camera.

[Jason Francois]

Hey Tom I just got a Tiffen promist filter in 49mm...just waiting for the 43-49mm stepup ring. I also picked up a couple of ND filters, but it will be a few weeks for the step up ring. Just messing around and holding it up to the lens looks promising.

When I searched B&H there are a LOT of filter choices if you use rings to get the sizes right.

[Tom Lowe]

To be honest, when I was in Afghanistan, I got a couple of pretty amazing photos in remote places on a snappy 4-megapixel camera when I didn't have access to a DLSR, and those shots are worth gold to me, because of the subject matter. The camera wasn't perfect, but it served its cause.

I don't know if the HV20 is quite as crappy as you are claiming. A DLSR vs a snappy depends on how good the snappy is. Some cost more than a DLSR body.

[Jarred Land]

of course Tom.. thats what i meant by every camera has its place.

your snappy camera took some good photos in a situation where a dslr wasnt appropriate or convenient. Snappy cameras have snuck into being published..but its not the normal.

There isnt a single snappy camera out there that will beat a pro DSLR in terms of raw image quality.. the size of the chip (and pixels), the glass, etc.. all goes into it (its not just resolution of course). It will keep getting closer and closer though as time goes on.

The HV20 isnt a crappy camera.. its kicking ass in its given market and even spilling over into the prosumer market... And there is reasons as i mentioned that i would use it.. but i wouldnt be going out to do my beauty shots.

[Steven M. Bailey]

I just ordered my hv20 from dell and hope to see it in a couple of days.
$879.20 was the best deal I could find from a dealer that didn't give me the creeps.

Although it is several years old now, I have thousands of pictures on my "snappy" 5mp nikon that I absolutly love. Sadly after trying to capture a mosquito the other day I found its limitation. Not enough mp. In its defense it was kind of a small mosquito, and I was shooting left handed as the mosquito was on my right.

My wife said I was stupid for risking west nile for a stupid picture. Oh well. Maybe I'll get a DSLR after I get my Reds paid for.:shifty:

[Emanuel A.]

I believe the HV20 can intercut well with the RED ONE beyond its natural limitations and given certain circumstances that I believe you well know Tom.

EDIT -- Sigh... an upcoming RED ONE & HV20 shooter as well.

[Tom Lowe]

For me, the HV20 is doing more than making inroads into the "prosumer" market... it's raping that market. I would not consider shooting 2K cutaways on the $4,500 HVX, because it's not 1080p.

[Finner]

I can't see you being in the edit suite trying to inter-cut hv20 and red footage and being happy with the end product. I would see it as a great idea to shoot the beauty shots you find as you scout with the hv20 and then write down all the information of where you are and what time and date it is on a piece of paper and shoot that (I always misplace notes to myself so I have found it useful sometimes to just shoot the notes so they follow right after the shot). This way you can do a rough edit with the hv20 shots you like and just take a little 6 day trip and pick up those shots with the red. I could see this system saving you a lot of time and money.

[Emanuel A.]

For me, the HV20 is doing more than making inroads into the "prosumer" market... it's raping that market. I would not consider shooting 2K cutaways on the $4,500 HVX, because it's not 1080p.WOW That's a hard statement indeed! :cold: Your luck: we're @RED one... :calm: :)

EDIT -- But you have all 100% of my belief and finds! :detective2:

[fightordie]

For me, the HV20 is doing more than making inroads into the "prosumer" market... it's raping that market. I would not consider shooting 2K cutaways on the $4,500 HVX, because it's not 1080p.

man was that a joke. The hvx200 does shoot 1080p and would be much better for cutaways especially with the 2k andromeda upgrade. Have you read and seen this. HV20 Rolling shutter issues at its worst:

http://cybermessageboard.fatcow.com/ssonte/viewtopic.php?t=478

http://www.ssontech.com/content/skool.mov

Someone says on that forum that the RED is a global shutter. Is that true?

[Zach Hilton]

Hi Tom. Interesting question. I have owned my HV20 for about a month now or so. I originally bought it for family and personal stuff, but it has gotten a wide exposure to production and such. It shoots some great images if you have good settings. Meaning, since there is not a fully manual mode on the camera, you really need a lot of light for the images to look good. If not, then you run into getting grainy images and they end up looking really sub-par. The way that I've gotten around that to a certain degree is put everything in manual as much as the camera lets me, then force the exposure to whatever is needed for the shot. This makes a lot more sense when actually holding the camera. If I were planning on using the hv20 for cut away shots and such, I would seriously consider taking a portable setup to capture via the hdmi. You will get far superior image quality (actual 1920 x 1080 vs. the 1440 x 1080 4:2:0. I can't recall the color space of when going via HDMI but it is better than 4:2:0 if I remember right). The hv20 is I think (don't quote me on this) the only HDV camera that if you capture via the HDMI port you aren't getting an HDV compressed image, which, although good for its place like Jarred mentioned, isn't all that great when compared to other things. If you would like, I could go hiking sometime this week and shoot some test footage so that you can see what things will look like. I live in Utah, so there's no shortage of wilderness here. If you have any other specific questions about the HV20, I'd be much obliged to help.

[Zach Hilton]

man was that a joke. The hvx200 does shoot 1080p and would be much better for cutaways especially with the 2k andromeda upgrade. Have you read and seen this. HV20 Rolling shutter issues at its worst:

http://cybermessageboard.fatcow.com/ssonte/viewtopic.php?t=478

http://www.ssontech.com/content/skool.mov

Someone says on that forum that the RED is a global shutter. Is that true?

At its worst yes. I have used mine for many motion and hand held shots and have yet to see this. I have read a lot of articles on this as well. Although I don't know anything about it technically, the footage and experience to me, speak for itself.

Not my clip, but an example of good footage that hasn't been passed through the jello filter.
http://rebelsguide.com/dl/HV20_examp_01_sm_h264.mov

[Emanuel A.]

man was that a joke. The hvx200 does shoot 1080p and would be much better for cutaways especially with the 2k andromeda upgrade. Have you read and seen this. HV20 Rolling shutter issues at its worst:

http://cybermessageboard.fatcow.com/ssonte/viewtopic.php?t=478

http://www.ssontech.com/content/skool.mov

Someone says on that forum that the RED is a global shutter. Is that true?Even if this is just a small perspective on the edge of its application, this thing is like a woman. You should have the necessary patience just to go and handle with it (I wouldn't say "it" if I'd talk about a woman... :whistling:). But manage with care -- 1st rule.

2ndly, Jim has been warned on this global shutter thing vs. rolling shutter issues. Actually, a thread on subject had been closed for such discussion purpose (so, now you know).

[Zach Hilton]

Sorry for the multiple posts. But, like I said, I bought my camera for personal stuff, and so the my wife would have a decent video camera to video the little ones. But, if you are going to use this camera for other stuff, and want to put it in some sort of manual mode, you can, it's just not as easy as your DVX, or HVX, or XL-H1, etc... It is kind of a finicky camera in the sense that you have to do a bunch of things to get it to work the way you want. But when you do that and understand your camera, the images you can get look great. Rolling shutter comes from not knowing how to use your camera. Put it in 1/48th shutter NTSC or 1/50th PAL and then just set your aperture and things work and look fine. For those who are interested, yet another link on how to tweak an HV20. Sometimes it reminds me of trying to get an old-school Nintendo to work. But hey, that's not why I bought it. It's a perk...I guess...that I can use it for those things. I'll probably use it mostly for that and for location scouts, but rarely for actual production.

http://hv20.info/yopu/hv20aperturecontrol.mov

[Emanuel A.]

I'll probably use it mostly for that and for location scouts, but rarely for actual production.Your in your own but you're wrong in just two points: 1/25th shutter or 1/24th gives motion blur but it is the best effective way in order to avoid the wobble. 2ndly: it'll be used for actual productions which shall be seen tomorrow.

;-)

[Jarred Land]

For me, the HV20 is doing more than making inroads into the "prosumer" market... it's raping that market. I would not consider shooting 2K cutaways on the $4,500 HVX, because it's not 1080p.

ha ha ha soooo true..... i just didnt want to actually come out and say it :)

[Poi Boy]

I bought an hv20 for my wife and really that is what it is best suited to.I'm having fun with it and it is pretty magic for $900 but it is a flimsy toy not suited for production. As a crash cam etc. yes but to use it in the same sentence as red is a little silly.
Aloha
-A

[Alexander Nikishin]

Tom, I'd seriously stray away from attempting to intercut ANYTHING from the HV20 with RED material aside from maybe the occasional 1 second action cam sort of shot or an ECU.

Images from the HV20 aren't horrible, nor are they great, they're just......well, surprising for a $1,000 price tag. By no means do they look anything like that of even the least of my favorite shots produced by the RED.

Please don't take this comment as an insult, but I'm surprised that you're not emberassed to even ask such a question let alone start a thread on it.

[Roberto B]

yeah yeah.. and we're little silly boys pretending to know that we have the key of the others house in our own hands.. worst.. to our little silly knowledge.. comprehending everything that moves.. :)

[ColinSmith]

I think whever the mix is a good idea or not depends on what is possible more than anything else. The harder it is to re-shoot the potential HV20 footage with the Red the more sense it makes to have a try now with the HV20 when the chance is there.... less than optimal HDV footage will still give you more cutting options than Red footage that does not exist.

Also, as we've outlined above, there are still post processing options for locked HV20 shots that can make the most of it's capabilities. No it will not be Red quality.... but with deep field shots, some time on post and some willingness to work at it, I would think it would be useable on a 1080 master.

[Mr. Paul White]

I second that. Both last two ones.

[Zach Hilton]

Your in your own but you're wrong in just two points: 1/25th shutter or 1/24th gives motion blur but it is the best effective way in order to avoid the wobble. 2ndly: it'll be used for actual productions which shall be seen tomorrow.

;-)

Good to know on the 1/24th shutter. On not being used in actual production, I was speaking for myself. I wasn't speaking for what others were doing. So my statement still stands, I won't be using it for actual production.

[Steve Freebairn]

Your in your own but you're wrong in just two points: 1/25th shutter or 1/24th gives motion blur but it is the best effective way in order to avoid the wobble. 2ndly: it'll be used for actual productions which shall be seen tomorrow.

;-)

If he shoots 1/24th shutter speed it won't look normal though. Normal in this case being an 180 degree shutter which would be 1/48th. Motion blur might help solve the issue, but it is going to make the footage much less useful.

[ColinSmith]

I think a lot of the potential problems with most issues (rolling shutter / 360 degree shutter / HDV compression) would be hidden if the footage as in this case is specifically going to be locked down landscape shots.

If you were looking to handhold or had shots with less organic motion filling the screen then things would seem to be more problematic, and you might want to test shoot before buying.

[David Mullen ASC]

Generally with these cheaper cameras, the safe thing is to (1) test for the differences, and (2) only use them for quick cuts and tight shots where resolution, motion, and contrast problems/differences are not going to be distracting.

Certainly for a wide landscape shot that the viewer will stare at for a while on screen, I'd use the best camera & lens possible (i.e. the RED with a prime lens). But some quick cutaway, like of a squirrel running up a tree in a tight shot that you grabbed, you can probably get away with the HV20. The more abstract the shot is, the more you can get away with it too, especially if it will be manipulated in post (dissolving images of water flowing, for example.)

But for an Ansel Adams type of wide shot of mountains, etc. use the best camera you have.

And like I said, test, test, test to understand how the two cameras will look, and look at your tests in the best possible (most critical) viewing situation. If you are serious about theatrical projection, try and get at least a minute of footage projected on a large screen somewhere, either digitally (2K or 4K) or transferred to 35mm and projected (places like Efilm will often transfer very small amounts of footage for not much money.) If not that, find a large screen HD monitor to watch the footage carefully on.

[Tom Lowe]

Thanks, guys, for your thoughts on this.

[Bruce Allen]

The HV20 is really sharp. We know that. But how about dynamic range? I just did a rough Stouffer wedge test on the HV20 on its least contrasty setting. I screwed up on a couple things (eg didn't black off the area around it, didn't expose far enough to the left) but I think it shows clearly that the HV20 gets somewhere between 7.25-8.75 stops depending on how creatively you can see through the noise ;)

Here's the link:
http://www.boacinema.com/projects/camera_tests/bruces_rough_hv20_stouffer_pt1.jpg

And here's a thumbnail:
http://www.boacinema.com/projects/camera_tests/hv20_thumbnail.jpg

Would anyone from Red care to explain how they come us with such a finely-grained number as 11 1/3 stops?! Where did they decide that the steps stopped and the noise begun? What was their RMS noise tolerance? After seeing what one of these tests is like, I think their graph is a little lacking in info. Hopefully we'll rectify that once the camera is out.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Poi Boy]

hey Bruce, did you get a chance to view the footage from the other day ? and if you did how did the hv20 uncompressed fair ? was the dif worth being tethered ?
Aloha
-A

[Zk2007]

I keep hearing that the HV20 is the sharpest affordable HD camera out there, beating the Z1, HVX200, HD100 and even XL-H1 and A1/G1.
Is it really that sharp?

[David Mullen ASC]

"Sharp" sometimes is deceiving though -- it can just mean that the image is more edge-enhanced out of the box, and a contrastier image also can look sharper.

[Bruce Allen]

HDMI input helps quite a bit, exactly how much I'm not sure yet ;) The HV20 is very, very sharp if it has enough light (it is less sensitive than the higher-end cams) AND you need a good monitor to make sure you're in focus (that's why I'm making my own - current portable monitors are too expensive and not sharp enough!). The focus wheel really sucks and the onboard LCD's peaking feature tells you that things are in focus when they're not. So, it's crisp but not as easy to get in focus as your higher-end cams. Seems perfect if you have a 35mm adapter and abovementioned monitor though...

David, in terms of "true sharpness" I'd say it's better than the Z1 if decently lit. I haven't used the other cams enough to give an informed opinion. It has a pretty good set of controls where you can defeat most of the in-camera edge enhancement, by the way. And Cine mode is suprisingly low-contrast for such a "consumer" cam.

Give me a day or two and I'll post some updated HV20 impressions - did new Stouffer tests last night, some low light outdoor tests, etc. Also did a Nikon lens test set this weekend with an HVX200 and a sgpro 35mm adapter using Evin's recommendations. Want to talk about that as well but that's getting totally OT.

Cheers

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[David Mullen ASC]

Maybe you could shoot a focus chart of some sort (or a wide shot with a lot of fine details) and post a frame enlargement to show any edge artifacts, if any. That would give us a good sense of how sharp it really is.

[Bruce Allen]

David, I actually did that this weekend. I went through 4-5 picture settings, for all 4 different modes... just on a small interior lit with a Diva 400 and some house lights. I promise to post stuff soon! I took some spot & incident readings with my light meter, will include those too. I am busy madly working on my LCD monitor housing design during the evenings but will try to get the test results out by the end of this week.

At the HV20's softest setting, there aren't too many edge artifacts but unfortunately the MPEG compression creates its own discrete cosine transform ringing artifact things, which get enhanced if you try to do any kind of post sharpening. At the moment, I've found that having the in-camera sharpness at normal settings seems to produce more detail that makes its way through the compression... but I will post eveyrthing and you guys can be the judge.

Lens-wise, it is pretty good - seems reasonably sharp edge-to-edge and chromatic aberration is not bad at all - definitely better than Canon A1 and XLH1. I need to put a grid up and test for barrel / pincushion, I know, I know.

The HV20 shoot was actually part 2 of the test - part 1 was testing the same interior scene with Matt Garrett, who has an HVX200 & sgpro 35mm adapter. We used / borrowed / rented a bunch of Nikons (17-35 all the way to 180mm) so hopefully we'll have a nice reference of how that relates too...

Matt and I considered planting the ASC issue where they feature Northfork somewhere in our test shot but decided that would be a little too sycophantic. Now David - the man himself - is interested in our tests and I wish we had!

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Zach Hilton]

Your in your own but you're wrong in just two points: 1/25th shutter or 1/24th gives motion blur but it is the best effective way in order to avoid the wobble. 2ndly: it'll be used for actual productions which shall be seen tomorrow.

;-)

So Emanuel. How did the shoot go with the HV20? Sounds like Mr. Bruce is going to post some stuff regarding his tests and the HV20 so that will be interesting. If there is anything I can do to help I'd be much obliged.