last minute steadicam call

[dalemccready]

Hey Red team, here's a ridiculously last minute idea that I'm not sure has been proffered, but of course may well be old news. Apologies in advance for being so slow off the mark.

When doing Steadicam the Red One looks like it's going to be very sweet. The only places that cameras generally have given me problems are:

1. the mount on the bottom is stronger than mounting on top when going low mode...Okay I think looking at your brackets, you've solved it already but...

2. Low mode takes ages (well longer than others are often prepared to wait).

So often I shoot with the camera mounted normally (stronger) and flip the whole camera upside-down (faster). We then flip the shot in post and at the video village if we can. When shooting for print we are of course stuck rebuilding traditional low mode, but the digital Red One offers a good opportunity...

If there was a function to flip/flop the image in camera, then we would be able to monitor normally, and shoot with the already normally mounted camera upside-down with no waiting! (well almost).

This would be a big deal for me. I've been burnt by vibration in low mode using brackets (the Red looks more solid however) and it's great to be able to do a balance tweak and keep shooting when everyone is expecting a delay for low mode...

Now, can you make low mode more easy since this would allow it to be used more often?

...just kidding on that last point :weight_lift:

[Jarred Land]

i like your flip idea..even without it though, mounting camera in low modewith the top cage on, will pretty much eliminate the vibrations you are used too.. the top cage bolts onto the top of the camera body solid at 4 points, and the universal top brackets dont exhibit flex, and you can double them up, just to make sure.

[dalemccready]

Cheers Jarred,

yeah I figured as much with the renders and stuff. I like how it's a fairly symmetrical looking system High mode or Low, but yeah the image invert would be great, I don't think I'd ever rig from the top if I could do that, just spin the LMB-5 over.

I also like how the rod system on the top will make rigging motors easy as.

by the way, the folks down at Park Road had very nice things to say about you all. I had a wee visit last week to check them and some 'footage' out, and I came away impressed all round. Nice stuff.

Saw some Viper stuff too and it looked nice but...soft. No comparison on detail.

[Ralph Oshiro]

So often I shoot with the camera mounted normally (stronger) and flip the whole camera upside-down (faster). We then flip the shot in post and at the video village if we can . . . If there was a function to flip/flop the image in camera, then we would be able to monitor normally, and shoot with the already normally mounted camera upside-down with no waiting! (well almost).
That's EXACTLY how I plan to shoot all low-mode Steadicam footage ("upsidedown" in order to reduce low-mode re-rigging from minutes to mere seconds). But I plan on shooting with a stripped RED body--no cage, no EVF, no brick (brick is on the sled), only a Sachtler quick-release plate/receiver, mounted directly to the Steadicam dovetail plate. Is RED able to flip its VF image?

[dalemccready]

if the camera is upside down the so is the image unless you flip the monitor too. If you can mount the monitor normally and view it upside down you won't need to flip it...but everyone else will

[Ralph Oshiro]

if the camera is upside down the so is the image unless you flip the monitor too. If you can mount the monitor normally and view it upside down you won't need to flip it...but everyone else will
Duh . . . yeah, I guess I can just flip the LCD! Now I gotta pop for that $200 3' extension cable!

[dalemccready]

with the Ultra I occasionally flip the rig and watch the monitor through my monitor support rods with it tilted over to me. I do this for speedy shows like Power Rangers. Nothing else needs to be tweak other than drop time.

Sometimes it's great to be able to offer up a trick an seconds. I'd love to have the time to tweak and refine, but sometimes you don't have it, and you can wow the director by getting that quick steal of the actor's feet instead (even if he's in a rubber suit).

[Anders Holck]

Yeah, I'm lazy too :-)

If we could just get x/y image flip on the full hd-sdi output (to save peoples necks in Video village) and a flip tag on the Redcode file it would be really nice. We wouldn't want the flip on the preview out as that would force you to rotate the rig monitor or do a flip on that as well (although both are pretty quick on Ultra/UB).

[dalemccready]

though I already have an image flip on mine.

But what I'm asking for is to not have to use it. When rigging low mode, if I do take the time to flip my monitor and the camera flips it's image then no one has to change anything else... Wouldn't image flipping be useful generally in a camera if it's possible?

[dalemccready]

hell, having the ability to do either would be great I guess...

why just ask for the clouds when you could ask for the sky eh?

[Anders Holck]

Yeah, thats why I stated that only flipping the Output going to video village would be great, as If you don't rotate the monitor and dont go lowmode mount, the image on the rig shows a correct image when feeded from the non flipped preview HD-SDI, and the flip function on the Full HD-SDI would make the video village happy when doing so.
Otherwise if the CMOS image could be flipped, video village would be right side up but the Steadi monitor would have to be flipped (physically or by using the electronic flip mode)
So either way would be great I guess.

[tj williams]

Another vote for flipping. As if RED Team didn't have enough on their plate!!!

[Ralph Oshiro]

Nothing else needs to be tweak other than drop time.
Come to think of it, re-orienting the LCD (to "upsidedown") would require a re-trim as well. Making only a quick post adjustment instead would certainly be a welcome luxury, and would reduce low-mode re-rig time to mere seconds!

[Charles Papert]

Dale brings up a useful point, I have used the image flip menu item in a few cameras including the Genesis for "quick" low-mode to grab unscheduled shots under time pressure. However I do still prefer to invert the camera as it eliminates the massive confusion that can arise when trying to make any adjustments to a camera between takes when it is upside-down.

[Charles Papert]

I have yet to see a rig where an inversion into low mode doesn't require flipping the monitor also for unobstructed viewing purposes, and I personally prefer to move it closer to the gimbal at the same time so that it doesn't ride too high.

[Brian D. Goff]

I have yet to see a rig where an inversion into low mode doesn't require flipping the monitor also for unobstructed viewing purposes

That day is closer than you might think:devil:

[dalemccready]

I'm with Charles. It's definitely better to reorient the monitor and repo it for balance. If the camera could flip it's image then no one else would even have to think about it...except the poor confused loader...

Me: "why are you holding the slate upside down?"
loader: "cos the camera's upside down"
Me: "Are the actors upside down?"
Loader: "...oh"

In truth I don't think there's ever a situation where you'd shoot upside-down and not want the image recorded right way up. might as well flip it in camera prior to display, that way everyone gets to see it normally and no one has to muck around further in post.

Hey Charles...what are you flying now? I have to say I'm getting Ultra2 envy. Starting to see it around more now and my Ultra is looking like yesterday's news. ;)

[AftonGrant]

Personal stabilizers aren't the only tool that can benefit from the in-camera image flip. An underslung camera on a jib or crane needs to either be mounted at its top (low-mode for Steadicam) or upside-down, therefore needing an inverted image. Various specialty applications would require the same treatment. In keeping with its infinite modularity and compatibility model it would certainly behoove RED to include both a secure low-mode mount solution, which it seems they already have, and the image flip capability.

It seems very "Sony-like" to assume users will have monitors with their own flip functions. It's all about options.

[J. Bernard Vallon]

Anyone have any ideas which stabilizer work well (with red)? Steadicams are expensive, and I'm willing to work with something off-brand if people have had good experiences. Plus most stabilizer systems come with an LCD, which adds to the price, and is unnecessary for RED.

I found this guy a while ago.

http://www.fsprostabilisateur.com/english/components/components.htm

Carries between 6 and 20 lbs, no included LCD, under $3000.

[AftonGrant]

Anyone have any ideas which stabilizer work well (with red)? Steadicams are expensive, and I'm willing to work with something off-brand if people have had good experiences. Plus most stabilizer systems come with an LCD, which adds to the price, and is unnecessary for RED.


Stabilizers are camera-independent. They're also expensive, as you said, which is why I wouldn't recommend shopping for one with one single camera in mind. You'll want to be able to work with all types of cameras in order to make your money back.

I'm curious to know why you think the RED doesn't require a monitor when used on a stabilizer? How will you see your image?

[Anders Holck]

On another note, isn't one of the big of assets of CMOS technology the readout flexibility. Compared to CCD's it would be much easier to support reverse scan. (Not saying it's easy though)

But as I tried to say (but got fed up in my danish/english laungauge barrier) You dont actually need to reverse the cmos readout.
Just tag the file as reverse scan and reverse the readout of the Video output buffer for the live outputs. Sould make it easier to implement as all demosaic, noisereduction is the same. Just start the readout at bottom/right instead of top/left :-)

[J. Bernard Vallon]

I'm curious to know why you think the RED doesn't require a monitor when used on a stabilizer? How will you see your image?

I didn't mean you don't need to use one, I meant you don't need to buy one with your stabilizer, because the RED LCD would work fine.

I realize stabilizers are camera independent, the question was more or less is there a cheap stabilizer that isn't a POJ on the market.

[dalemccready]

I'm still not convinced by the idea of using your Red monitor as your viewing rig monitor. You'd have to cable externally again yeah? Or would you build in connectors to run your cable down the post?

I just personally couldn't stomach external cables again.

Fingers crossed the camera can help me upgrade to an Ultra 2 or AR revolution. Has anyone noticed that it's the perfect shape and size for the AR and just that much lighter to make the AR a bit easier?

[AftonGrant]

I didn't mean you don't need to use one, I meant you don't need to buy one with your stabilizer, because the RED LCD would work fine.

What if you are shooting with a camera other than the RED? What if you're shooting with the RED and switching from the rig to tripod, or dolly, or handheld, etc? Will you keep unmounting and remounting the monitor too?


I realize stabilizers are camera independent, the question was more or less is there a cheap stabilizer that isn't a POJ on the market.

No good stabilizer has an unreasonable price markup. Meaning, the expensive rigs are worth it and vice versa. Your best bet for a "cheap" stabilizer is a used one. Many older ones have come down in price, yet work as good as new.

[dalemccready]

Hey Afton that's a brilliant point!

There are plenty of great second hand but top shelf rigs out there. It's not neccessary to be the beta user of a rig like I was buying new. Most rigs have some "teething" to sort out, if you buy second hand you will often also benefit from an operator's mods and upgrades too.

If my biz partner and I bought another rig we were seriously thinking of buying another exactly the same as we have, but 2nd hand. It'd be cheaper, and we'd know everything wrong and right with it going in.

Anyone want to buy an Ultra Cine? ;)

[dalemccready]

Hey that Steadishots is great too Afton

[Brian D. Goff]

Anyone have any ideas which stabilizer work well (with red)? Steadicams are expensive, and I'm willing to work with something off-brand if people have had good experiences. Plus most stabilizer systems come with an LCD, which adds to the price, and is unnecessary for RED.

I found this guy a while ago.

http://www.fsprostabilisateur.com/english/components/components.htm

Carries between 6 and 20 lbs, no included LCD, under $3000.

Take a look at our rig:) It can be up-dated to the full version in straight forward way.

www.actionproducts.ch

[dalemccready]

Will do Brian. But would I actually have to put it on? I hear these Steadycameras are kinda uncomfortable!

...and what sort of camera is your actioncam? ;)

(my Dad still asks me how my camera's going..."no dad, it's not actually a camera, it holds a cam...oh nevermind...yeah it's great" )