Rates bottoming out

[Nathan Beaman]

i think its sad that so many people are so desperate to rent their REDs that I've seen many prices are $250 a day -- thats the same an HVX still rents for. Even at $500 a day its cheaper than a beta cam.

Just a little note to bitch.

[Curran Giddens]

$250!?
N o o o o o o ....

[Evin Grant]

Why bother at those prices?

[Jean Déraps]

You'd make more money working at McDonald's...and investing your $35k with Madoff

[Ed Watkins]

Thank god I sold my rental unit early on (for a nice profit).

$250/day is just plain silly.

[Chris Parker]

we'll never charge $250. nor would our clients ask for that rate. sure there are all kinds of independent owners out there that will basically give their camera away, but larger productions will always go to a rental house, who charges fair prices, and offers the support they need.

I'm sure a guy like Mark at offhollywood would concur. There are many segments within the film industry. Some want the cheapest gear rental, others value service more than a lowball price. I ain't sweating....

[J. Bernard Vallon]

A lot of advertised prices like that are the pro-rate for long term rentals. $250 might mean for 30 days, so $7500, which is a lot more reasonably (still low)

I always feel like that kind of bait and switch is just dumb.

[Charles Angus]

Which raises the question - why are betacam rental rates so high?

[Chris Parker]

hell, soon enough a working betacam SHOULD rent for more than any other camera. it'll be an antique.....can't imagine there will be many working models around in another few years.....in North America anyways....

[Costelloe Michael]

Guys,

I think you've got to take into account what is included in that $250 per day. If it's a body, viewing module, base production pack, battery and drive then $250 a day is about 1% of cost. That's probably about right and a fair reflection of the experience anyone offering that level of kit would have. Maybe it's some dude out to do the data work himself and subsidising the camera to get himself on shoots.

On the other hand if it's a full commercial kit with lenses, grips and extensive viewing and data services that's just suicide. Perspective on $250 pd is needed, it doesn't mean anything by itself.

Mike Costelloe

[Chris Parker]

$250 for just the body is too cheap. forget about a base production pack, battery and drives. i guess the bottom line however is, you rent it for what you CAN rent it for. that is your price. glad mine is not $250......

[Florian Stadler]

High tech equipment with a limited lifespan has to rent at 2-3% to be profitable. So 360-500 for the body ALONE is the only reasonable rate. I rent mine out for 650/day decked out with ET accessories and it's working every week.

[Chris Parker]

couldn't agree more with florian. 1% of a piece of gear like this with limited life span is silly. it's not a matte box that will last 10 years......

[Nathan Beaman]

yeah - generally 1/45th is the sweet spot. Theres another post somewhere here with UK rental places offering 275 pounds a day which is what --- like 350? still cheap.

not to mention the boards are flooded with "take my cam please" offers.

So funny - and not so funny at the same time.

I have noticed alot of larger rental houses dropping their prices significantly - but still around $800 a day with the basics and an 8 day month as the best price, and only if theres no demand.

[Stephen Williams]

yeah - generally 1/45th is the sweet spot. Theres another post somewhere here with UK rental places offering 275 pounds a day which is what --- like 350? still cheap.
.

Hi,

If they bought in the summer the $ was 50p so $550 at their cost.

Stephen

[Costelloe Michael]

Umm,

Pespective eh? I get your point about limited lifespan, but surely the same could be said for the old beta cams? Made those guys a fortune in nickels and dimes over the years.

1% has long been the industry standard I think. Keep all those accessories and swap the body? Exciting times, eh?

I got a call from some guys who I did a job for recently, they're having trouble paying and are having to let people go from the agency. Company of 7 people now down to 3 within two months. They keep ringing as a courtesy and apologise about the bill not being paid. £3,000 for two days Red kit hire plus £1500 for my fee. Good money if you can get it?

Mike C

[Nathan Beaman]

Anyone whos had their Beta cam for along time made out real well. Longest lasting format in Broadcast history (outside of film of course!) Lots of major programming still uses strictly beta and most television stations are built on it.

[Chris Parker]

and most television stations are built on it.

Not for long...

[Mark L. Pederson]

I'm sure a guy like Mark at offhollywood would concur. There are many segments within the film industry. Some want the cheapest gear rental, others value service more than a lowball price. I ain't sweating....

I'm not interested in the race to the bottom. There are many ways to make clients happy, and give them more value than just the savings from a cheap rental. Good producers know what really matters.

There will always be a bottom (the low end) ... and there will always be a top - (the high end).

The middle is what falls away.

The view from the top is better.

[Brent J. Craig]

hell, soon enough a working betacam SHOULD rent for more than any other camera. it'll be an antique.....can't imagine there will be many working models around in another few years.....in North America anyways....

I know I've been personally responsible for taking one or two Betacams out of circulation.

[GlennChan]

Which raises the question - why are betacam rental rates so high?

For some folks, the workflow is there. Hand off tapes and you are done, and the editor knows how to deal with betacam. For simple stuff you don't need to shoot 4K (e.g. if you want to go shoot some interviews, testimonials, etc.).

For their needs, it's not like Red is vastly superior. (Or even superior, because now you have to figure out the workflow. And the editor may be on a vintage Avid or whatnot.)

The rates seem a little high to me though.

[Poi Boy]

do people still rent betacams ?
-A

[Costelloe Michael]

Guys,

I think what you're missing is that the rates are as reflective of the person who is setting them as they are of the technology they are using to shoot on. As I said in my original post '1% is probably a fair reflection of this guy's experience in the industry', some of you seem to think I concur with that rate. I don't. And personally I shoot commercials and features for a 'fair' rate. My list of clients in 2008 included Adidas, Nike and Ferrari.

However, a guy down the road has taken delivery of a red recently. (He phoned me up to ask me to show him how to use it!) He used to shoot with the sony 500 series, local government content etc. Kit value probably around £10,000, now he has Red, kit value around £18,000. I can see him trying to undercut my market to get his camera out. He's a part time hobby-ist and will love to make money out of his purchases. So now he shoots better looking local government content maybe, I don't think they will up his rate for gear though.

I use 35mm, S16mm and occasionally use Super 8 for spots and I also have a 5D MkII. I still charge my full rate for commercials though even though the gear changes in price. That's because I have set clients who pay for the product I produce and not just the sytem I produce it on. It so depends what part of the market you are in and what other gear you have got. Red as part of a camera package with UP's and a full Arri set-up will hold it's value. A single body with some Red AKS and an 18-50mm will find itself fitting into a different market with a lower price.

I'm aware that there are guys out there offering the camera for a low price. That's because Jim has made this system pretty much affordable for everyone. Should I be worried that that guy down the road goes out for £250 a day? Whether you're on top looking down or at the bottom looking up if you are busy using your Red camera, enjoying your work and providing a good product to the client and making money good luck to you.

Mike C

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Mike C has it right...

Had a similar situation here. I trained another local RED owner back in November. He's now under-cut me on some rental jobs and not just by a little, by A LOT, like he's 65% cheaper. Whatever.

I don't really care that much... He's just offering rental of a basic kit and calling himself a RED camera tech / DIT. He's spending most of his weekends renting his RED out to the indie crowd, hoping that a little cash here and there will help pay for the gear. Whole different mindset than where I or many others here come from. In fact he's sent some work my way a couple times when he couldn't supply the level of kit needed for certain jobs.

The RED One is very affordable and makes room in the market for several levels of productions and rental models. I could probably keep my camera a bit busier if I lowered my rates, maybe generate some more cash flow. But I'm not in this to be a rental house and every moment someone else is using my camera, that's time I don't have it when I think of something I want to try or some client calls me and wants something done ASAP. IMO, buying $40K worth of equipment (give or take) and trying to earn money by renting it out, just seems silly if you have no real value or services to bring with it.

[Edgar Pitts]

I have noticed alot of larger rental houses dropping their prices significantly - but still around $800 a day with the basics and an 8 day month as the best price, and only if theres no demand.

Is an 8 day month standard for long term rentals?

At $800, that is $6,400 per month, which IMHO is pretty fair rate for the basics. I thank the days per week/month is what confuses some people. $6,400 is only $320 per day if you using a 5 day week.

Edgar