Anamorphic Format for RED

[KMayry]

I see that Dalsa is planning to launch their own set of anamorphic lenses for their 4k camera lines. I'd like to see Red do the same. I love the look of the films shot in scope.

K Mayry

[chuck colburn]

Cylinders are one of the hardest optical shapes to generate. Probaly best just to rent.

[David Mullen ASC]

First someone would have to build a set of 1.33X anamorphic PL-mount lenses before you can rent them...

[Graeme Nattress]

Dalsa anamorphic lenses are only very mildly anamorphic as their sensor is 2:1 to begin with. That means you get very little of the benefits of the look of anamorphic in terms of bokeh and lens flares, and all of the hassles.

If you want the anamorphic look, you've got to use real anamorphics. Using Dalsa won't get you the look you crave.

Graeme

[Emanuel A.]

First someone would have to build a set of 1.33X anamorphic PL-mount lensesThis would be a great RED offer indeed...

[Matt Uhry]

Hi Graeme,

I looked at the Dalsa anamorphic 75mm lens at NAB and it actually had very nice Anamorphic characteristics. More than I would have guessed based on the 1.22 Squeeze. Did you have a chance to look at it at NAB - not like it was busy or anything at the Red booth.

Dan Sasaki formerly of Panavision, now of A+S, designed Dalsa's lenses and is a very highly regarded designer of cine lenses...

I believe Illia Friedman mentioned that the glass was ground and coated to their specs by Leitz Canada.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[David Mullen ASC]

I do question though the need for an anamorphic lens on a 4K camera with a nearly 2:1 sensor like the Dalsa has, even though I like anamorphic photography. In some ways, it's an ideal shape in that you either crop a little on the sides for 1.85/16x9, or a little top & bottom for 2.35. 2:1 would almost be the ideal shape for an HD monitor to watch cinema features on for the same reason (sort of the Storaro idea of the Univisium format).

I think it's really the 2K digital cameras with 16x9 sensors like the Genesis that could use some 1.33X anamorphic lenses to create 2.35 with a maximum use of pixel area to preserve resolution. Once you start talking about a 4K camera, it doesn't seem like such a resolution hit to just crop 16x9 to get 2.35, so the main reason at that point to use anamorphics would be for their unique optical artifacts.

[Graeme Nattress]

Any resolution gain is negated really, as you can't project it as 4k projectors are all 4k flat!

No, didn't see it at NAB, just read about it. Not saying it's not good quality, but am saying I think it's missing the point!

Graeme

[Illya Friedman]

No, didn't see it at NAB, just read about it.

You might actually want to SEE the lenses before you make such judgment calls. We'll have some at Cine Gear.

I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa

[Graeme Nattress]

But Illya, I'm not judging the lenses at all. I don't need to see them to know they're not a 2:1 squeeze. If they're not a 2:1 squeeze they won't look exactly like the anamorphic scope crazies want their lens flares to look like. If I'm judging anything, it's the logic of a semi-scope lens on a 2:1 4k sensor.

[Illya Friedman]

Oh I see. Although you've NEVER actually seen the Dalsa lenses first hand, you were NOT making a judgment call when you wrote this:


That means you get very little of the benefits of the look of anamorphic in terms of bokeh and lens flares, and all of the hassles.

If you want the anamorphic look, you've got to use real anamorphics. Using Dalsa won't get you the look you crave.


I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa

[Graeme Nattress]

Illya, is 1.22x anywhere near 2x squeeze? Are you saying I won't be able to see the difference? Are you saying that lens flares will be just as eliptical as they are with 2x squeeze?

Graeme

[Poi Boy]

Illya lighten up, Graeme isn't judging the lenses unseen, he is questioning the logic of the sqeeze or lack of sqeeze.
Aloha
-A

[Illya Friedman]

Graeme, what you wrote doesn't exactly leave much to the imagination or room for misinterpretation.

We have created something brand new, and utterly amazing. There have never been lenses like these previously available for digital camera origination, and the performance is beyond outstanding.

I made no previous claims to optical properties/style of our anamorphics. Although I appreciate you insinuating that I have. I don't need to justify anything, and I'll gladly allow the lenses to clearly speak for themselves. Again, as I mentioned there should be lenses on display at Cine Gear.

As I've said many times, Dalsa very much appreciates all the others who've come to worship at the 4K alter (i.e. Vision Research, Red, Sony and Olympus.) As an employee or Red, you have an open and obvious bias, just as I do as well. That's fine and to be expected. However, next time you're puzzled by our technology, you should ask me questions before baiting and criticism, you'll find me very accommodating.

I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa

[Graeme Nattress]

Enough said, I think!

Graeme

[Jarred Land]

However, next time you're puzzled by our technology, you should ask me questions before baiting and criticism

Illya Friedman
Dalsa

Illya...Your in my backyard. And im about to throw you out.

loose the attitude.

[reality]

I don't need to justify anything, and I'll gladly allow the lenses to clearly speak for themselves.


Hello Illya,

The lenses looked very interesting at NAB. Can you put up some comparison 4k images shot with the anamorphic lens and with a master prime?

Does the anamorphic increase the vertical resolution by about 300 pixels? How much softening and CA is produced by the additional element? The extra piece of glass always adds more softening to the image, right?

I over heard a conversation at your booth that the likelyhood of vertical aliasing increases quite alot and caution must be taken when using this lens. One of the engineerlike booth persons was talking about how it conflicts with the high frequency filter or something. What do you recommend for avoiding aliasing?

Charles

[Illya Friedman]

I over heard a conversation at your booth that the likelyhood of vertical aliasing

I can't comment, because I've never heard anyone say that.

I can't go into too much detail with the lenses just yet, but I will soon. Downloadable stills will be coming in the near future.

I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa

[Illya Friedman]

Illya...Your in my backyard.

I realize that, and I happen to like your backyard. In all sincerity, it's been interesting to follow the development process since the days back when the best source for RED information existed in your frontyard, DVXUSER.

I'd like to think that time and again I offer a helpful voice and unique perspective. BTW, the only reason I think that is because I've received several emails of praise and thanks from some of your forum members in the past. And because of my position, I believe I offer a perspective that doesn't otherwise exist here.

I can imagine that Jim, yourself, and the rest of your crew probably get your feathers ruffled from time to time when people make assumptions and openly criticize the large number of hardware and software tools you're developing without the benefit of the whole picture. I can recall several occurrences over the past year, both here and in other peoples yards. It happens from time to time because we're all human, passionately committed to what we do, and the future of 4K.

One thing of which you may not be aware, but Dalsa is anticipating shipment of the RED camera. Not because we are a reservation holder (we're not), but because we have a growing number of clients who are RED reservation holders (some with double-digit numbers) chomping at the bit to consign their cameras with the only digital motion picture camera rental house in this hemisphere currently able to support a 4K production.

Anyway, I apologize if I was short. You know I have nothing but positive feelings for you and the entire Red team.

Sincerely,

I.

Illya Friedman
Dalsa

[Bruce Allen]

Any resolution gain is negated really, as you can't project it as 4k projectors are all 4k flat!

No, didn't see it at NAB, just read about it. Not saying it's not good quality, but am saying I think it's missing the point!

Graeme

SOME resolution gain is still there because 4k projectors have RGB per pixel, right?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[reality]

Illya, how much do you plan to rent Red's for?

Charles

[Emanuel A.]

First someone would have to build a set of 1.33X anamorphic PL-mount lenses before you can rent them...Here's something that might be work for?

http://www.schneideroptics.com/ecommerce/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?CID=91&IID=851

[Jarred Land]

there is also the mezmerizer :)

[Emanuel A.]

Hey good man, let me follow you. ;-) I live some thousand of kilometers away from you. I mean, miles... :)