Let's talk REDFLASH

[Brook Willard]

Ever since the RED-DRIVE turned into a mini-RAID, REDFLASH has fallen off of the discussion map. Time for me to bring it back.

Now the last time I saw it was at the L.A. screening. The REDFLASH screwed onto the side of the camera in place of the optical RAW port. If memory serves, it appeared as though the flash "magazine" could be swapped on the fly if it were to fill up.

So, how big are the drives? Either 32GB or 64GB is sticking in my head.

Will additional flash "magazines" be available? Any word on pricing? I have to assume that they'll be [significantly?] less than the <$1,000 RED-DRIVE.

The single RED-DRIVE was upgraded to a mini-RAID for bandwidth issues... I'm assuming the REDFLASH was reworked from an engineering standpoint to handle 4K REDCODE RAW bandwidth.

Will there be some device that one could plug a flash "magazine" into that could interface with a computer to bypass using the camera for footage importing?

Will there be any sort of contact covers or case included with the magazines? I hate to draw the comparison, but akin to a P2 card's plastic covers?

Any chance of a render or image of Spike's REDFLASH [assuming he/she has one] to see how they look?

Thanks! Sorry for being long-winded as usual.

[Jaime Vallés]

I think comparisons to P2 cards are valid. They do their job extremely well, and are solid as a rock. The only drawback is the very small ammount of storage, and how much it costs for that ammount.

If a REDFLASH magazine comes in either 32GB or 64GB for around $1000, that would be fantastic. Be able to shoot between 20 to 40 minutes of 4K REDCODE RAW, then dump to hard drive via Firewire 800. No risk of dropped frames or messed up footage because there's no moving parts, but enough space to shoot the equivalent of a film magazine. All on a completely portable setup with no cables hanging off the back.

I like the idea of the RED-DRIVE mini Raid, but I'd rather stick to flash memory if at all possible.

[Ace]

Solid state 2.5inch notebook drives are now debuting at 32gig. The sustained write speed is rated at 50mb/sec from white I've seen. If this is the case, it would be a welcomed solution.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

Doe's anybody know if RED will give the possibility to use a picture cache for lets say about 10 seconds buffered video before press the RED REC Button? That should be possible with REDflash. I haven't read about that or I missed it.

[Ace]

Here is an indepth preview where they put the drive through some thorough tests. A few pages into the article theres a couple of charts with some interesting stats.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/09/20/conventional_hard_drive_obsoletism/index.html

[Ace]

Here are some stats.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/09/20/conventional_hard_drive_obsoletism/page5.html

[Ace]

I found this graph particularly interesting.

http://images.tomshardware.com/2006/09/20/conventional_hard_drive_obsoletism/image019.gif

[Rob Lohman]

Flash is still around, we're just focussed on Spike & a silly thing called holidays :)

[Andrew Benz]

Rob, I like your RED #. Hope you had a good holiday.

[Emanuel A.]

«Red#: spike»


http://www.clicksmilies.com/usersmilies/einzelusersmilies/COLUFAN1_manmachinesmilie1.gif Lucky guy!

[Rob Lohman]

Thanks Andrew, hopefully everyone had a good holiday!

[Emanuel A.]

Thanks Rob but you can't break my jealousy :)

[SF Geek]

I would really like to know what RED has in store for the RED Flash. With the Viper Filmstream being able to record to the Venom Flashpacks in film stream mode makes me think that there are great opportunities for higher bitrate Redcode Raw that might be able to do higher frame rates. Does anyone know enough about flash drives and the Venom Flashpack specs? Is RED actively developing the Red Flash or is it second in line to the RED Drive and Red Raid?

[Rob Lohman]

We are actively developing the flash system as well. The flash market changes
fast so I would not expect (personal guess!!) more details until more closely to delivery.

[MikeCurtis]

The company line given at NAB & IBC: RedFlash will start at 32GB and start "around $1000" - so no, will not be substantially less than Red Drives. Solid state products are much more costly than hard drives, look at all the IT based products and you'll see that pricing disparity. Just noticed I got my Mom a 30GB hard drive based iPod that plays video for the same price of an 8 GB nano that doesn't play video (but is smaller). You pay the price for solid state's security.

Beyond that, my own unofficial/uncorroborated/WAG thoughts:
-the stats on the 32GB solid state hard drive are very interesting - at 50 MB/sec transfer rate, that is PLENTY fast enough for all the onboard formats. My own calculations, which Red has verified as overkill, put a maximum datarate of over 43 MB/sec, well under the always sustained nearly 50 MB/sec the solid state will do - with NO data rate falloff as regular hard drives have.

Advangates of solid state:
-consistent transfer speeds - no datarate falloff
-effective seek time of ZERO - so no penalty to write multiple simultaneous files, such as metadata, proxies, audio, and video in different files on the media. This is NOT the case for regular hard drives - seeks are "expensive" in terms of time
-no head crash risk
-more consistent transfer rates means less safety overhead required as well
-smaller form factor
-much lower power consumption as well

From a functionality standpoint, solid state is the way to go if the capacities can get reasonable. If my estimates are correct (and I don't think entirely so), 2K@60p from which 1080i can be derived should give about a half hour of video fitting in 32GB (not including audio, metadata, proxies, etc.). That's a pretty reasonable load.

The only drawback on solid state is the price - and that will improve over time.

-mike

[Brook Willard]

We are actively developing the flash system as well. The flash market changes
fast so I would not expect (personal guess!!) more details until more closely to delivery.

Makes sense to me. Happy remaining holidays, folks! :D

[SF Geek]

Does anyone know the specs on the Venom Flashpack? I just want to have an idea of what's possible. There isn't any hard data at the Grass Valley website.

[Chris Kenny]

-the stats on the 32GB solid state hard drive are very interesting - at 50 MB/sec transfer rate, that is PLENTY fast enough for all the onboard formats. My own calculations, which Red has verified as overkill, put a maximum datarate of over 43 MB/sec, well under the always sustained nearly 50 MB/sec the solid state will do - with NO data rate falloff as regular hard drives have.


Benchmarks on that Samsung solid-state SATA drive show it only writes at 25-30 MB/s. Seems like in a device with that many chips, though, you should be able to get higher by using more of them in parallel, so this limitation probably won't apply to RED's flash system.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I support the RedDrive before RedFlash approach since the evolution of flash media is so steep right now. Yes, hard drives are getting bigger and cheaper also, just not as fast.

By getting the RedDrive out when the body ships it gives us a workable solution that is:
- affordable, particularly in terms of $ per GB
- has enough capacity not to feel like P2 redux
- because of the price/capacity ratio it will allow you to avoid on set downloading hassles in most shooting situations, especially if you get 2 or 3.

By pushing the release of RedFlash into the future we have a better chance of getting a better cost per GB, it maybe gives the RedTeam enough engineering time to create a unit that uses the topology of the P2 where multiple flash chips are RAIDed to increase maximum write rates that would maybe even allow higher fps in RedCode RAW!!!

[Jared VanLeuven]

Mike, love your avatar, that's how I feel in the mornings! :)

[Anders Holck]

So we basically need 3 flash cards at around $1000 a piece to juggle....where have I heard that before......

....32GB you say, well that's new!!!

Seriously, it will be very nice with these flexible options for storage.

[Jared VanLeuven]

Wasn't the package including either the flash unit or the high-speed port. I'm still in a post-holiday stupor so I could be wrong...

[Chris Kenny]

Wasn't the package including either the flash unit or the high-speed port. I'm still in a post-holiday stupor so I could be wrong...

I think it was that you either get the slot for the flash mag (not the mag itself) or you get the optical port (possibly for more money).

[Brook Willard]

Wasn't the package including either the flash unit or the high-speed port. I'm still in a post-holiday stupor so I could be wrong...

I believe it was supposed to include both.

[Jared VanLeuven]

Both is nice. :D

[Andrew Benz]

I support the RedDrive before RedFlash approach since the evolution of flash media is so steep right now. Yes, hard drives are getting bigger and cheaper also, just not as fast.

By getting the RedDrive out when the body ships it gives us a workable solution that is:
- affordable, particularly in terms of $ per GB
- has enough capacity not to feel like P2 redux
- because of the price/capacity ratio it will allow you to avoid on set downloading hassles in most shooting situations, especially if you get 2 or 3.

By pushing the release of RedFlash into the future we have a better chance of getting a better cost per GB, it maybe gives the RedTeam enough engineering time to create a unit that uses the topology of the P2 where multiple flash chips are RAIDed to increase maximum write rates that would maybe even allow higher fps in RedCode RAW!!!

Very nice post Blair. I feel the same way, though this is a way more eloquent breakdown.

[Tonaci Tran]

Of course this was waaay back in May and things have changed (reservation holders get a benefit that is not disclosed yet) and will change until the RED team confirms the package.

"Jarred Land
05-09-2006, 08:18 PM
So what do you get for $17,500? Stuart just let me know:

Included:

Body
Sensor
Flip out hi res LCD (not a VF)
Dual link hd-sdi
HDMI / dvi monitor / VF output
XLR audio
Dual SD card slots
Battery and Charger

and a license for REDCODE.

Options are:

Digital Magazine with 3 I/O ( USB, Firewire and e-SATA )
(i.e Red-Drive and Red-Flash)
Lenses
Red-Cage
Red-Gun
Electronic Viewfinder
External recorders (RED-RAID or RED-RAM)"

[Brook Willard]

A lot has changed since May :D

[Häakon]

I think it was that you either get the slot for the flash mag (not the mag itself) or you get the optical port (possibly for more money).
I believe they haven't said anything about the optical port coming with the camera, and it's speculated that it will be an additional cost as most won't be using it right off the bat. "32-64 gigs of onboard flash recording" has been a part of the included spec for a long time now.

[Chris Kenny]

I believe they haven't said anything about the optical port coming with the camera, and it's speculated that it will be an additional cost as most won't be using it right off the bat. "32-64 gigs of onboard flash recording" has been a part of the included spec for a long time now.

I've heard that a few times, but I don't recall ever hearing it from Red. Could you give a link, possibly?

[Jannard]

Nothing has been locked down... except that reservation holders will get more than those who place firm orders at NAB 2007.

Jim

[Jarred Land]

"32-64 gigs of onboard flash recording" has been a part of the included spec for a long time now.

im not sure i ever officially heard this anywhere.. what included spec are you getting this from?

[Brook Willard]

It's strange... I've heard it too. I can't remember where though...

[Milan Nikolic]

Good news Rob!

[MikeCurtis]

Mike, love your avatar, that's how I feel in the mornings! :)

Thanks! The joys of PhotoBooth - sit any kid (of any age) down with it and they're locked on for a good twenty minutes.

you'll note I AM wearing a Red t-shirt in that photo...

-mike

[MikeCurtis]

Oh - meant to comment on the Venom FlashPak - it is great that it exists, but I recall the price as somewhere over $50,000, so OUCHIE!!! Don't really want to have to pony up for three of those on set. If I recall correctly (and I may well not, somebody please bust me if wrong), 10-18 minutes of recording depending on color sampling and frame rate.

As for 32-64 GB of Red Flash, my understanding, based on working the booth, was that the SLOT for Red Flash would be included, and the Red Flash MODULES would be 32-64 GB in capacity, but I don't ever recall hearing in the past that they were to be included.

So my read based on statements to date: don't expect to get a Red Flash included with the camera at the $17,500 price, unless Jim changes his mind.

-mike

[Jarred Land]

So my read based on statements to date: don't expect to get a Red Flash included with the camera at the $17,500 price, unless Jim changes his mind.

-mike

i think thats a pretty fair statement Mike.

[Roberto B]

red drive isn't it fair enough?.. yeah, me knows.. 320GB under $1,000..