Red Support Equipment savings

[Finner]

One of the topics that keeps comming up is "Do you know the best deal on "X" piece of support equipment that will work well with the RED?".

I was just wondering if RED had considered partnering up or recommending any specific gear. As the REDs start to roll out there is going to be a large base of people looking for a lot of support equipment. I would think this would be a great opportunity for all sorts of camera support equipment companys. What I am mainly wondering here is if RED may get together with some companys like APPLE, a follow focus company, a matte box company, a head and stix company etc and have offers of special deals for RED consumers. For example MAC - RED ready edit system for maybe 25% less then what you could buy the system for separately. For established companys looking to gain new brand loyal customers this would be great and even better for new companys looking to get exposure for their product. Added bonus to RED there will be a lot of happy customers with a lot more $ in their pocket to buy another RED body or more RED accesories.

I see cross company promotion like this being a big win win for everyone.

RED team I know you are very busy with the camera right now but I would think building ties with other strong companies could be very benificial and it may be something worth looking into if you have not already.

[Mark B.]

Partnering with MAC would be a bad idea since MAC (computers) will inevitably run into a dead-end. I know a lot of people love MAC in the video industry, and some in the audio industry, but the rest of the world is running Windows and Linux platforms... and most software development efforts underway are geared towards those two platforms, especially for Windows because of the new .NET technologies. If you want to look really far into the future (several decades), Windows will eventually die away and be replaced entirely by a free version of Linux. The only thing slowing down the Linux domination is the still unfinished effort to migrate the .NET languages to Linux. After that's done, Windows and MAC will begin to fade away.

[Steve Sherrick]

Oh boy, not again....

[Stephen Gentle]

Partnering with MAC would be a bad idea since MAC (computers) will inevitably run into a dead-end. I know a lot of people love MAC in the video industry, and some in the audio industry, but the rest of the world is running Windows and Linux platforms... and most software development efforts underway are geared towards those two platforms, especially for Windows because of the new .NET technologies.
Apple's market share has more that doubled in the last couple of years. It's not going anywhere soon. Also, I highly doubt that .Net is drawing anyone towards windows.

[Steve Sherrick]

By the way Lowkus, my comment was all in good fun. Just that this debate comes up so often on so many forums that it gets kind of funny after a while.

[Stuart English]

We have answered this many times already - we are a Mac centric company and will offer full and primary (just not exclusive) support to that platform.

So back to the original question of this thread - what do you guys think about that idea - good / bad / indifferent? Suggestions / recommendations?

[Don Woods]

Partnering with MAC would be a bad idea since MAC (computers) will inevitably run into a dead-end. I know a lot of people love MAC in the video industry, and some in the audio industry, but the rest of the world is running Windows and Linux platforms... and most software development efforts underway are geared towards those two platforms, especially for Windows because of the new .NET technologies. If you want to look really far into the future (several decades), Windows will eventually die away and be replaced entirely by a free version of Linux. The only thing slowing down the Linux domination is the still unfinished effort to migrate the .NET languages to Linux. After that's done, Windows and MAC will begin to fade away.

Okay buddy put down the pipe...

[Don Woods]

well Stuart, I think this could be a really good idea if handeled well. For one I would love to see Native REDCODE support shiped with FCP stoudio. I would also like to see fast switching and most importantly good EDL or XML communications back to REDCINE

[Ben Feuer]

Personally, I'm more interested in a RED-PACKAGE of some sort - basically, a "this is everything you'll need to shoot" kind of arrangement, with a batch-buy discount. So, lens, matte box, rods, body, battery, HD, whatever doodads and whatsits I'm forgetting, which is exactly why such a bundle would be awesome.
It would be cool to have a customizable RED checkout, where you can add different options to your camera, like the computer companies do. I find it helps me think about what I do and don't need. And it's (more or less) free.
A good checklist would also be a nice option - also cost-free.

[Finner]

Thanks for Stuart. I wish I had never brought up APPLE as it really has nothing that much to do with this thread other then a company example.

The main point is could RED do some networking with some other companys to help us get a better deal in outfitting our cameras.

I think I came up with an even better idea. Would it be possible for RED to find or even just put out the word that they are looking to represent some like minded companys on the RED web site. Lets say RED finds a new matte box company that produces a great quality matte box for the RED at a RED price point (reasonable price for film gear, not a rip off because its film gear). RED could sell these items right on their site with reasons and recomendations of how the gear will fit with the RED.

I, and it seems like I am not alone will be looking for a head & tripod, Matte box, follow focus, Edit system and even a set of filters. If I could find these items on RED's site at a good price and rated well I would probably buy my whole set up from RED.

This way RED could probably get us all special discount prices and make some money on the products as well.

If you guys adapt a "RED support equipment store" maybe comming up with this idea you can give me a bit of a bonus discount (Hey its worth a try).

[Finner]

DOH!

Penfever, I did not see your thread before mine. It looks like ya beat me to it.

[MikeCurtis]

...and then I read the thread.

Yeah, offer whatever bundles possible that don't close doors.

25% is too optimistic - why would the other vendor want to? Think of reasons why it would be in Apple's, or whoever's, best interest to offer that kind of a discount.

[Finner]

Mike this Thread is not about getting deep into software and computer preference wars so lets not go there. It's about if RED should seek out companys that sell good support products that they can sell or get us agood deal on. As far as if people like the products they offer you can buy it and if you don't like the product you can buy a different one somewhere else.

Please don't make it a techie computer war its not what this is about.

[Don Woods]

The only problem I see or its not a problem is that there are differnt strokes for differtent fooks. Meaning that if you like one tripod I might like another. I highly dought to many people are going to buy the same RED bundle of equipment as others. That is the beauty of the Camera its self. It is modular.. You can mount, configure it, and upgrade it as you want. Same with the equipment you package your RED with. I think partnering with company's in hardware will not be as benificel to RED as one might think. As for NLE or DI system it is extremely benificel... Plus allot of people rent equipment on big shoots. Remeber this is a Digital Cinema Camera. This camera is made to work on big movies. Not to many big movies have personal gear lying around. But I don see what you are talking about here.

[Finner]

;)
The only problem I see or its not a problem is that there are differnt strokes for differtent fooks. Meaning that if you like one tripod I might like another. I highly dought to many people are going to buy the same RED bundle of equipment as others.

I completely agree. Thats why I am saying RED could offer us what they feel would be the best bang for your buck on products that would fit well with the RED and if you don't like something that is offered don't buy it.

As far as your point about RED being outfitted for feature films I agree at times. I also agree too that most people will not be able to afford cooke S4's and other very expensive equipment. RED will only be outfitted this way sometimes though. I feel most people will be in the same position as me and will equipe their camera to be able to shoot at a high level with NiKON lenses and matte boxes that work with them and other gear that will fit with EFP, local commercials, corporate work and independant features. Then I will rent high end equipment (cookes, big zooms etc)when called for. With this in consideration I feel RED selling this level of hardware would be very benificial.

[GlennChan]

XML: I would disagree about supporting XML, it just isn't implemented well when it comes to FCP. It doesn't link to the original Quicktime files, and doesn't handle speed changes (from what I remember). XML/FCP is half-baked.

2- For high-end work, Red should look at compatibility with:
-Discreet FFI / Linux
-Discreet FF / SGI - this is a big maybe. Most of these systems are old and slow (except for Inferno AFAIK); chances are, the facility has a better system that will handle Red. But there is some old Discreet kit kicking around. (Damn, I can't seem to say Autodesk.)
-DI: Some of these systems may only accept certain forms of DPX and TIFF.
-DDRs: For commercial work graded on a Da Vinci 2K.

[Finner]

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY!!!!!!!!!!!

How can Stuart or I explain any clearer that computer systems and tech is not what this thread is about. Did Stuarts or my responses not show up in english on some computers. Its the only explanation I can come up with as the computer disagreements seem intelligent so you would think that means the people who are posting are intelligent and can understand the point about THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT COMPUTER ARGUMENTS.

If you want to disagree about workflow computer please start a thread in workflow.

[donatello b]

it would be nice if there was a package of accessories at a bundle price ...
i'm not sure which "make" of accessories i'll be buying - sticks, matt box , follow focus, zoom control .. i'll have to try em out on RED one ..
i'm planning to pick up my RED at REDs house .. it would be great if they had a couple different tripods, matt boxes, follow focus i could try out while i'm checking out my RED - at the end of the day i could just place a order for the equipment i liked ... if not then i have to take my RED down to X company and try out those items and work out a deal or perhaps RED has a few deals with X companies and we know the price before arrive to try out items ?

[GlennChan]

Finner: I read your post after I had posted mine and I did digress from the original topic, yes. Relax.

2- As far as the original topic goes: I'm indifferent. It's not like there are 'synergies' between Red and support accessories (compared to say, NLE bundles that include DVD authoring, or Goodman's guides and the cameras they are for). Unless people happen to write guides for the Red camera, then those bundles or promo pricing dealies would make sense.

[Finner]

Hi Glenn

I hope you did not take what I wrote as an insult as I want to make it clear that I was only trying to use humour to keep things on track. People are so passionate about there edit system choices that it just can become an exersise in futility. Which was not where I wanted this to go as I feel this topic could be beneficial to a lot of us.

Again I apologize if you or Mike felt like I was insulting you as that was not my intention.

[CVB]

I think what RED is doing is really bucking the trend for high end cinematography equipment. Most of the time a piece of equipment like the Red One would be a rental item, and as such most of the equipment you use with the camera would be a rental item. My thoughts are that the camera is the driving factor in the costs of the industry, do you think people are going to continue to pay outrageous prices when the camera is less than the support equipment? RED is basically 1/5th of what it could have cost and I would think that the support equipment should have the same ratio and quality. I would venture a guess that a number of companies will fall in line with the "make it up in volume" philosophy and get on board with RED really soon, the market is there and its only going to grow as the fence sitters adopt the technology.

[Finner]

Curt

you are one of the people I have been waiting for to give their 2cents on this. Being in the support production field yourself I thought you or some new companys you know may fit the bill on this one. Do you think you may have some items ready for when RED begins to ship? I think a lot of people would be willing to give new companys a chance as the outfit their RED but if new companys products are not ready to ship at around the same time as RED they may miss the boat on some big opportunities.

[Mark B.]

By the way Lowkus, my comment was all in good fun. Just that this debate comes up so often on so many forums that it gets kind of funny after a while.

Yeah, I know.

[Thom Steinhoff]

I think it would be great if any vendors want to embrace Red's philosophy on pricing, value and openness, they should step forward and make themselves known--I just don't think it is anything Red has to do or loose focus over.

If a non competing accessory company "got religion" and announced to the Red community that they are creating a Red bundle that gives deep discounts to Red owners in the name of the rebellion and their products are of suffient quality and value--I would think Jim might come along and endorse them--opening up a flood of orders.

But I don't think it is anything the Red team needs to be diverted on--let the vendors realise the gold mine for themselves.

[chuck colburn]

Motion picture equipment has always been costly. There are many justifiable reasons for this. I think the two main ones are the longevity of the equipment its self and the volume sold. A couple of thousand units to a manufacturer is nothing. The development costs, (conception, engineering and manufacturing) on the small scale of sales that is inherent in this business do not allow for the pricing that one would wish for. In order for a small company to attract talented people they have to pay them a decent salary. These designers,engineers and machinists are people who have decided that their line of work is their choosen path in life. They are due the same respect that anybody doing anything and doing it well deserves.
Then there is the eveyday costs of running a business, sales secretarial, shipping and some very pricey machine shop equipment not to mention a building to hold all this. And finally there is the person who owns the company. The guy/gal putting his life into it trying to make a better one for him/herself and their families. There is no harder line of work in the business world then that of the small business owner. Not all companys are Oakleys who can afford to do the wonderful thing that they are doing.

Chuck

[Finner]

I agree with all you said Chuck. I just feel if there are some new companys looking at trying to gain or even start to build some market share this would be a great time to give some deals and pair up with RED.

[chuck colburn]

I agree with all you said Chuck. I just feel if there are some new companys looking at trying to gain or even start to build some market share this would be a great time to give some deals and pair up with RED.

Hello Finner,

And I agree with you. The motion picture equipment business has always been a close knit one. The strengths of one company with another will lead to better and sooner arrived at solutions. I mean come on Panavision is sleeping with Arriflex! (Don't tell their wives) LOL

Chuck

[Mike the beginner]

I just hope that red will offer a decent discount for their own made accessories first and foremost. How they will do that i dont know but perhaps a good deal for the reservation holders based on the value of your accessories so long as you purchase them with the camera.

Lets say you have ordered the red zoom lens and the 300mm prime lens. A wee discount for ordering both if you are a reservation holder would be greatly appreciated. Obviously you would only get the discount when you fully pay for the red zoom as that is due later. Alternatively you pay for both up front and get a discount! Other accessories achieve a stepped up discount based on whether you purchased any red lenses. The more accessories you purchase the more discount :) If you purchased both red lenses your discount for accessories starts off at a higher level than if you purchased just the one red lens or if you just want the accessories.

Since i will be looking at well....everything i will seek discounts wherever i can find them. Obviously it would be nice if red could oblige by achieving third party discounts but you might have got that same discount anyway if you barter.

I do hope red will soon announce the price of the accessories such as red rail, EVF etc. I suppose some things like the red drive and red flash could change downwards each month with technology advancing so fast.

Michael

[Ben Feuer]

Of course you are right, Chuck; motion picture equipment has traditionally gone with a premium.
But RED's business model goes beyond that - they are trying to broaden the high-end camera market to include everybody from wedding videographers, to actors making their own reel, to industrials, et cetera.
I think most people are here because they feel it's high time to knock down the walls of overpriced equipment that have protected some (let's be honest) occasionally shoddy filmmaking practices. By god, if they can be shoddy, so can we, right? :)
Or do you honestly consider it reasonable for a prospective consumer to go out and drop 17.5k on a camera and then 10k on a TRIPOD to put it on? How about 5k for a matte box? No. These models need to be rethought, or people will just work around them. Look at how many people are going with Nikon glass over the more expensive cine glass. It's not the breathing, it's the economics, silly. If I can make my content for 1/10 the cost and drop it on the web/compress the bejeezus out of it/put it on TV for someone to glance at while strolling by, who's going to notice if my lens breathes or not?
So yeah. A matte box is a fantastic convenience. But if it means a third of the cost of a camera, I'll use C-47s and Duvatene to hold my ND filter, thank you very much.

[Steve Sherrick]

In all fairness to the Red folks, they have said everything is subject to change. That could mean a bump in the price tag for the camera, excluding reservation holders. I don't foresee a huge jump but they could make an adjustment based on the feature set they decide to include with the final design. So I think the early adopters might benefit from a great price point, and everyone else will still get a lot of bang for the buck. I don't think the camera will jump up to 50K, but when you consider that other cameras of equal or less quality are far more expensive, it does make you wonder where the shift will happen. I'm speculating of course, as for all I know 17.5 might be the price they will stick to.

Steve

[Finner]

So yeah. A matte box is a fantastic convenience. But if it means a third of the cost of a camera, I'll use C-47s and Duvatene to hold my ND filter, thank you very much.


This is exactly why I started this thread. The mechanics and production costs of a swing out 4 stage 6x6 matte box does not have to equal $5,000 and up. I understand everyone in bussiness needs to "pay the mortgage" but the price point of typical film equipment is ridiculous. I would love to be in some of the big film company's board rooms when they set prices "Well Jack how much can we rape our consumers on this one". Sure there is R&D and other things to take into consideration but give me a break. Really how much R&D goes into a Matte BOX, Follow Focus or fluid head. None of these items have really changed at all for over 20 years.

Well thats just my thoughts and if RED can sell great products that other companys build at a fair price through the RED web page I will be happy to buy them.

[GlennChan]

Finner (re: two pages back): Got it, no worries. :)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I understand everyone in bussiness needs to "pay the mortgage" but the price point of typical film equipment is ridiculous.

Amen to that.

I'd definitely like to see RED partnering with various accessory suppliers, it could be very helpful. And if they do, it would seem to also make sense for them to bring a dealer/distributor or two into the mix so that the customer is getting a true deal vs. every day pricing. Rather than just being able to order from the manufacturer only to receive the same 5% off MSRP that everyday dealers already offer.

[chuck colburn]

Of course you are right, Chuck; motion picture equipment has traditionally gone with a premium.
But RED's business model goes beyond that - they are trying to broaden the high-end camera market to include everybody from wedding videographers, to actors making their own reel, to industrials, et cetera.
I think most people are here because they feel it's high time to knock down the walls of overpriced equipment that have protected some (let's be honest) occasionally shoddy filmmaking practices. By god, if they can be shoddy, so can we, right? :)
Or do you honestly consider it reasonable for a prospective consumer to go out and drop 17.5k on a camera and then 10k on a TRIPOD to put it on? How about 5k for a matte box? No. These models need to be rethought, or people will just work around them. Look at how many people are going with Nikon glass over the more expensive cine glass. It's not the breathing, it's the economics, silly. If I can make my content for 1/10 the cost and drop it on the web/compress the bejeezus out of it/put it on TV for someone to glance at while strolling by, who's going to notice if my lens breathes or not?
So yeah. A matte box is a fantastic convenience. But if it means a third of the cost of a camera, I'll use C-47s and Duvatene to hold my ND filter, thank you very much.

Hiya Penfever,

I know the prices of cine gear hurt in a dry penetration sort of way. But as you say there are alternative choices such as still camera lenses etc. And if you poke around there are matte boxes out there in the $500 to 1k range.
C-47s? Does that mean you are going to mount your filters with a military version of the DC-3? lol

Chuck

[Gregory Karydis]

I am interested/intrigued by the idea of Red partnering up with other companies to offer complete kits.
As for computers I am indeferent since I own and can handle both of the leading types (windows - mac)

I intend to use Nikkor lenses which I am going to buy from scratch. Though I'd love to use my precious Canon glass :(

I must admit I am fairly concerned about what else I might need for "on the go" shooting (ie, battery packs, storage, etc.) so a few kits to chose from (or use as a suggestion) would be nicea dn handy for people like me.

[Andreas Fernbrant]

When I read threads like this I can't keep from wondering what Jim and the RED team thinks. They offer us a really amazing camera system for almost no money. Still everyone want's more. Could you give us this? - How about selling me that with a 25% price reduction?. I can't speak for anyone but myself and I'm really thankful for the oppertunity Jim and his team is about to "give" me.

The following is pure speculation but I some how get the feel that RED is planning on offering most of the accessories discussed above. I for one will wait to see what their plan is.

[Finner]

Andreas

I think most of the discussion on this thread is not about trying to get something for nothing from red. More what it is about is just letting Red know that if they offer quality support equipment on their website for a good price a lot of people will be interested in buying some. As far as Red offering most accessories I think they will also but I think that could be a very long time from when your 528 ships out and Red has also mentioned they are happy to have other companys offer support equipment. A lot of us will be looking for a lot of equipment and I would be happy to buy mine from the Red site if they offer some other companys equipment and recomend the quality of it. Thus Red makes more money so we are not asking for more in fact we are trying to give more to red.

[SF Geek]

As far as AKS goes, I don't plan on getting the cheapest options. Don't get me wrong. I don't have the money. I'll be taking out a loan. But I didn't reserve the camera because it's so cheap, even though that's the only reason I could afford it. I got it because of it's quality. I'm not trying to stick it to the fat-cats, which is something I've seen yelled around this forum. There's a lot more to production value than a nice camera.

That being said, I'm hooked because of the quality of the RED rather than bare-bones thriftiness and the same will be true for my AKS. No tiny bogen heads, no red rock follow focuses, and no coken filter holders. If I can't afford it then it will have to be rented and I'm OK with that.

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

Here's a thread I started in October on .com.

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=17697

For some reason it died!

Stephen

[Hans von Sonntag]

Some one mentioned above the longivety of cine-gear. Imagine you run a rental house. Imagine you've got a lot of 35mm and S16 gear, cameras as well as lenses, mattboxes, etc. Now there's a new camera, let's say Arri 235. You buy the the camera but not necessarily new lenses and all the stuff; you've got it already. The big investment for a rental-house is not the camera-body. An Arri 235 body is about 30k, but an Angenieux Optimo zoom 57k. The same with RED. Consider RED as a digital 35mm camera-body. This is what rental-houses think about RED. Some book one or two already, some are more conservative and wait until the market tells them to buy one. RED is going to replace 35mm/S16/HDCAM-cameras but not the gear. So, the market for highend cinegear, especially lenses will not increase that much. A RED ONE with A RED zoom, mattbox, follow-focus, computer for converting etc. is not a cheap camera-system. RED is not going to replace the DV/HDV video-cameras and will conquer this considerably big market. Some of us will take the opportunity (how fantastic) and jump on an entirely new level (hopefully with good scripts). But in the end a great lens costs a lot to manufacture and RED deserves great lenses. If you don't have the budget now rent them, get addicted, save money and buy the one you like most. Good gear is costly and always will be.

My 1.0 cent,

Hans

[Hrvoje Simic]

Some one mentioned above the longivety of cine-gear. Imagine you run a rental house. Imagine you've got a lot of 35mm and S16 gear, cameras as well as lenses, mattboxes, etc. Now there's a new camera, let's say Arri 235. You buy the the camera but not necessarily new lenses and all the stuff; you've got it already. The big investment for a rental-house is not the camera-body. An Arri 235 body is about 30k, but an Angenieux Optimo zoom 57k. The same with RED. Consider RED as a digital 35mm camera-body. This is what rental-houses think about RED. Some book one or two already, some are more conservative and wait until the market tells them to buy one. RED is going to replace 35mm/S16/HDCAM-cameras but not the gear. So, the market for highend cinegear, especially lenses will not increase that much. A RED ONE with A RED zoom, mattbox, follow-focus, computer for converting etc. is not a cheap camera-system. RED is not going to replace the DV/HDV video-cameras and will conquer this considerably big market. Some of us will take the opportunity (how fantastic) and jump on an entirely new level (hopefully with good scripts). But in the end a great lens costs a lot to manufacture and RED deserves great lenses. If you don't have the budget now rent them, get addicted, save money and buy the one you like most. Good gear is costly and always will be.

My 1.0 cent,

Hans

As filmography booms with RED, and thousands of filmographers appear and the need for lenses rises, the prices will eventually go down, for at least 30-40 %.
Good gear WILL always be costly, but not like this.

I see what Jim has done with sunglasses. From scratch.
He didn't have to use titanium.
But he did. He he.

Do you really think he will settle with mid quality lens?
And then - the others will have to follow.

[Stephen Williams]

As filmography booms with RED, and thousands of filmographers appear and the need for lenses rises, the prices will eventually go down, for at least 30-40 %.
Good gear WILL always be costly, but not like this.

I see what Jim has done with sunglasses. From scratch.
He didn't have to use titanium.
But he did. He he.

Do you really think he will settle with mid quality lens?
And then - the others will have to follow.

Hi,

I think you will find the second hand value of equipment is based on supply & demand. That is why I have been able to buy 35mm motion picture equipment at 5c to the $1.00 new cost price. Lenses I have paid upto 10% of new cost.

Stephen

[Finner]

Hans

I totally understand the difference between okay gear and high quality gear. The thing is like a lot of others I do a wide variety of production value shoots. On the big $$ stuff I can just rent all the support stuff I want. On the cheaper corporate stuff though I need a purchased kit option. So there is definately a place for decent quality support gear at a reasonable price for shoots like this and there will be as high demand from many red owners looking for it. I would love to buy a ARRI gear head but instead will rent one on the big stuff and probably buy an Occonor 2060 HDS or equivlant.

[Robert Sanders]

How many matte boxes and follow focus units do you think the entire population of the world needs on a yearly basis? A couple thousand? Maybe.

And if you sold them a matte box and follow focus, how long do you think that product will last before you'd need to buy a new one? Five years? Ten years?

It's called economics of scale. It's amazing how few people on these boards truly understand that. It appears everyone wants these small companies like Chrosziel to lose money just so they can buy a high-quality matte box for $199.

Even with RED adding several camera units to the world market, how many do you think they'll produce this year? 2000? 2500?

How many of those new RED owners do you think will want to buy a matte box? Half? So that 1000-1250 matte boxes being purchased by new RED owners. And just because you might be in the matte box business it doesn't mean you can count on selling 1000 units. If you're Chrosziel or ARRI you might get 20% of that market share. So what kind of impact does RED really have on their business? Maybe selling 200 additional units a year.

I don't know about you, but if I were manufacturing a product for a limited market with a long shelf life I don't think I'd start slashing my pricing by 75% so that Joe Blow filmmaker in Tallahassee doesn't think I'm "raping" him.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I am with Finner here. Unless you are plenty busy with higher end work then many of us need to do other more cost conscious genres in between to pay the bills. In terms of sticks, bricks, mics, matte box, etc a lot of us who are veteran owner/operators already have "decent" kit. I think the biggest challenge is the glass - of course once I get my Red sourced 18-85mm zoom I will have a roughly $32K kit (body, zoom, RedDrive mags) that will shoot the socks off of virtually anything short of a Red or 35mm film cam with a high end cine lens.

The problem is having the RedOne be a doorstop until the RedZoom ships, unless of course the B4 mount happens quickly :) so I can just pull the lens off my current camera. I think the use of good still lenses is a great option creatively but it would be tough for fast paced corporate stuff - of course I will likely get to test that theory and report back before the year is out :D

[Jaime Vallés]

What I'd love to see is a list of recommended gear for different applications and price points. Something like:

INDIE FILMMAKER PACKAGE - Around $27,000
RED ONE w/720p LCD ($17,500)
Red Flash ($1,000)
Nikon 17-35mm F2.8 ($1,500)
Nikon 50mm F1.4 ($250)
Red Rails ($1,500???)
Redrock Mattebox ($500)
Redrock Follow Focus ($645)
Cartoni F103 Tripod System ($1,500)
Headphones ($100)
Shotgun mic, boom stick, shockmount, XLR cable (~$500)
Extra battery (~$200?)
Lowel DV Creator 44 Lighting Kit ($1700)

Then also have a list with mid-range budget in mind, and one with high-end equipment.

A list like this, but with their own product and brand recommendations (and where to buy them) would be fantastic. Maybe with some sample images taken using those products.

[Finner]

How many matte boxes and follow focus units do you think the entire population of the world needs on a yearly basis? A couple thousand? Maybe.

And if you sold them a matte box and follow focus, how long do you think that product will last before you'd need to buy a new one? Five years? Ten years?

It's called economics of scale. It's amazing how few people on these boards truly understand that. It appears everyone wants these small companies like Chrosziel to lose money just so they can buy a high-quality matte box for $199.

Even with RED adding several camera units to the world market, how many do you think they'll produce this year? 2000? 2500?

How many of those new RED owners do you think will want to buy a matte box? Half? So that 1000-1250 matte boxes being purchased by new RED owners. And just because you might be in the matte box business it doesn't mean you can count on selling 1000 units. If you're Chrosziel or ARRI you might get 20% of that market share. So what kind of impact does RED really have on their business? Maybe selling 200 additional units a year.

I don't know about you, but if I were manufacturing a product for a limited market with a long shelf life I don't think I'd start slashing my pricing by 75% so that Joe Blow filmmaker in Tallahassee doesn't think I'm "raping" him.

No one is asking for the "slashed" prices you are mentioning here. If you can honestly justify the reason that a matte box costs $5,000 and up you should be a salesman.

We all get it Robby STUFF costs money. But the we are not looking to find the absolute highest quality equipment for $100 that is clear to a five year old that it would be dumb to expect that so there is no need for you to be so condescending. There are a lot of people on here with years of experience and that have worked with many brands of cameras and equipment. You should really take that into consideration before you post.

All people are asking for is good equipment at a fair price. It's not to much to ask for.

[CVB]

Finner, I agree 100%. Awesome, reliable, cutting edge equipment for a good price is key. One of the reasons that things cost so much is that alot of these companies base their entire business model on one product so they basically need to charge an arm and a leg to stay afloat. If they were to diversify and make a broader range of products you would probably see lower prices. Theres tons of support equipment that can benefit from the RED culture and it's just a matter of time before you are going to see some drastic price drops.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Finner,

I am absolutely with you, concerning prices of matteboxes and s. o. - Arri for instance, where value and price obviously don't fit. Same happens with a lot of other gear. But there are companies like Chrosziel and may be others I don't know yet which build decent stuff for a much more down-to-the-ground price. I don't get a 6x6 Mattebox made by Chrosziel yet but in future I probably will - if there is a market.
Lenses are a different topic. A week a go I did a lens-test for a upcoming job. I tested a Cooke Zoom 20-100 I haven't shot with for years. I tried it on the Camera and loved it. Great lens! Mellow, but not too soft, giving you a unique depth in the picture. Cost: 3.5k -5k. Used. An Arri/Zeiss Masterprime 3 times more expensive is much sharper but do I want this? And the depth of the Cooke is still something special the prime lens does not have. Lenses are a matter of taste like music instruments. The newest and priciest is not always the best. This is the reason why there is such a big market for vintage music instruments. Many lenses and their "sound" have to be rediscovered. Great times for the clever "cinematic archaeologist". I'm already digging and I am not going to my bank and say: Hey, I need another 100k for Zeiss glass - just to easy (and to expensive). Unfortunately you cant't do that with matteboxes, followfocus, batteries, so again I am totally with you.

[Jason Francois]

I want everything and I want it free...and I also want it made of solid platinum. Is that too much for frickin' ask for? :)

Oh yeah...group buy could be interesting. It would be even more interesting to me if it were just a group of companies that would offer a discount if purchasing through RED. I'm not too keen on being stuck to a specific package, but I'm not sure if that's what's being discussed entirely.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Hans - that Cooke sounds sweet, where can I find a used lens like that for under $5K USD? Clue me in.

[Michael Struthers]

As a "Mac-centric" company, I think it's safe to assume they have been talking to Apple since the very beginnings. I'd be willing to bet Apple might be basing their rumored upcoming FC extreme with the ability to handle red 4k workflow.

I'd also guess that the price of the Red Body will go up after NAB - but not a lot. Let's say $22,500.00

[chuck colburn]

Hans - that Cooke sounds sweet, where can I find a used lens like that for under $5K USD? Clue me in.

Best make sure it covers the intended format.

[Nick Shaw]

I'd be willing to bet Apple might be basing their rumored upcoming FC extreme with the ability to handle red 4k workflow.

I thought Final Cut Extreme was now acknowledged to be a myth. Graeme even said so on DVXUser (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=747358#post747358).

[Sanjin Jukic]

As a "Mac-centric" company, I think it's safe to assume they have been talking to Apple since the very beginnings. I'd be willing to bet Apple might be basing their rumored upcoming FC extreme with the ability to handle red 4k workflow.

I'd also guess that the price of the Red Body will go up after NAB - but not a lot. Let's say $22,500.00

my bet is US $ 60,000.00 as it would be in a price range of "cheaper" HD cameras (like Varicam, etc...). Why should RED lose its money?

[Hans von Sonntag]

Blair:
Give Google a try. People tend to find the 20-100 an old lens since Cooke introduced in the 80ies the 18-100 which covers the classic range of an Zeiss prime set - by focal length not by look and feel. An used 18-100 is around 12k-15k.

Chuck:
Cooke 35mm lenses cover at least 35mm academy. This will do 4k on RED, as far as I know.

Hans

[chuck colburn]

Blair:
Give Google a try. People tend to find the 20-100 an old lens since Cooke introduced in the 80ies the 18-100 which covers the classic range of an Zeiss prime set - by focal length not by look and feel. An used 18-100 is around 12k-15k.

Chuck:
Cooke 35mm lenses cover at least 35mm academy. This will do 4k on RED, as far as I know.

Hans

Hi Hans,

If the lens just covers Academy ( .631" x .868" or 16.03mm x 22.05mm ) it won't cover Red full frame, which If I remember right is xxx x 24.4mm. The lens would have to be capable of covering 35mm full apreture ( .735" x .980" or 18.67mm x 24.89mm ). I think.

Chuck

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

My Cooke 20-100 seems to cover S35 when the front baffel is removed. However on a digital camera it is possible it might vignette. I know of several cine lenses that will cover S35 but will vignette with a P+S technic adapter! Cooke S3 18mm is an example.

Expect a 20-100 Cooke to cost from $2500-5000. I don't think you will see much difference in quality. I understand some of the glass is the same.

If you look at Cooke & Arg. websites current lenses only cover Academy (in theory)

Stephen

[Martin Drew]

I agree with the general point that it should be possible to make and sell this stuff a bit cheaper, but only if you make the leap of faith that you are going to sell greater volume by dropping prices. This is what Red are doing, they have seen the hole in the market and are betting they can sell volume if the price is right. The popularity of the 35mm adapters is testament to the demand, look how the prices of used glass has risen.


... - Arri for instance, where value and price obviously don't fit. Same happens with a lot of other gear. But there are companies like Chrosziel and may be others I don't know yet which build decent stuff for a much more down-to-the-ground price...

I am not sure I totally agree with the particular comparison between Chrosziel and Arri though. Arri does make a lot of pricier kit, but I think that is because it tends to be more rugged. If you look at equivalent products and compare the price they aren't wildly different. Arri MB19 + top flag (1650 Euro), Chrosziel 840-13 (1640 EURO). I am not saying you can't spend a lot more in the Arri superstore, but it isn't comparing like with like.

M

[Martin Drew]

I presume that means its going to be fine for 4k though doesn't it Stephen.

M

[Martin Drew]

I'd also guess that the price of the Red Body will go up after NAB - but not a lot. Let's say $22,500.00

I would be very suprised if it did. They have made a big thing of the 17.5k price all along, I would imagine the price will hold unless they have some fundamental problems. I think Jim even stated on DvxUser that their intention was to stick to that price if at all possible (or words to that effect).

M

[Nick Shaw]

The implication has always appeared to me to be that (for the time being at least) they hope to keep the price the same. They will just give a better value package for that price to reservation holders.

[Sean Michael Johnston]

I would rather have a beefed up service plan/warranty bundle with my RED. Kinda like Canon's free owner's club. I've sent a camera and a lens out for repair through the "club" and had it back in less than 5 business days.
When something goes wrong in our business and your stuck without a backup camera, things get bad pretty quick.

A hardware discount with another company would be cool, but I can't see that happening, at least in any appreciable amount with the high costs of cine gear. Plus most of us have different opinions on support gear and peripherals and tend to piecemeal our eqiupment from job to job instead of buying a bundle.

A software discount, however seems like a very good idea.

[Poi Boy]

I think the Red price is bound to go up after the initial run; I could see the price doubling quite easily. It would still be a miracle product at twice the price. When I think of the price of my digital back, a far less complex device, I just don't see how they could hold the line at $17.5K.
Aloha
-A

[Gregory Karydis]

If there's no recent update on the matter, the cameras' price will remain the same:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=804982&postcount=7

[Poi Boy]

Yes, I think the price will stay the same till after the initial offering is complete. After that, I think not.
Aloha
-A

[Martin Drew]

Either it is economic to produce the camera at 17.5k or it isn't. If Red got the sums totally wrong then the price might go up in the medium to long term. But assuming they got the sums right and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, then the price will hold. I can't see any logic for bringing the camera out at 17.5k with the intention of then raising the price. It would only happen if the process of building the camera was radically more expensive than originally envisaged or the business strategy totally changed. I am suprised to see people so certain that the price is sure to go up. Why do you think the price will rise? Do you think Jims plan was always flawed?

M

[Hans von Sonntag]

Martin:
Seems you're much deeper in price-comparisons then I am. I have a Chrosziel follow-focus and found it nicer than the more costly Arri FF3. But this is 10 years ago and time changes, prices go up and Chrosziel might change their price politics. Any how, if there is a market someone will fill the gap with rugged and decent cine-gear for a reasonable price.
Marketingwise (Jim Jannard is a marketing-god) I think it is the most stupid move to create a feel of community (we (David) angainst them (Goliath)) and later to destroy this unique and very valuable feeling. The brand RED relies entirely on this community feeling. Hence this board and all the other stuff. And I like it. No price increase, I suppose.

Chuck, Stephen: I tried the 20-100 Cooke also on a P&S Pro adaptor. No vignetting. Wideangle and macrro lenses always tend to vignett on this adaptor. Thanks for the competent replies I will test this issue deeply.

Hans

[Ralph Oshiro]

I'll venture a guess here, since I've been wondering about this A LOT, and have two theories . . .

A. Jim is out to democratize the filmmaking industry by offering "big budget" image-making quality at a price almost any filmmaker could afford. Price stays the same, with moderate increases.

B. Jim is out to democratize the filmmaking industry by offering "big budget" image-making quality at a price almost any filmmaker could afford, BUT ONLY to the first 1,500 or so reservation holders (true believers), and probably to NAB2007 attendees that also sign up. However, all the nay sayers and late adopters will pay the price it's really worth after that. Price goes up according to demand.

Early adopters (current, and NAB2007 reservation holders) will serve to "evangelize" the rest of the filmmaking industry. That's industry with a capital 'I.' Established DPs, studios, major distributors, other camera manufacturers. The entire production world will eventually take notice of RED. I see a LOT of F900s in Hollywood stages. I mean, A LOT. Traditional film DPs, those who abhor the thought of moving their film shows to F900s (and rightly so), may be enticed to at least consider RED. Studio bottom-liners will be VERY enticed by RED. Once critical mass is reached, it'll become the new Hollywood de facto standard for high end digital acquisition. And that's a LOT of REDs.

[Finner]

Either it is economic to produce the camera at 17.5k or it isn't. If Red got the sums totally wrong then the price might go up in the medium to long term. But assuming they got the sums right and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, then the price will hold. I can't see any logic for bringing the camera out at 17.5k with the intention of then raising the price. It would only happen if the process of building the camera was radically more expensive than originally envisaged or the business strategy totally changed. I am suprised to see people so certain that the price is sure to go up. Why do you think the price will rise? Do you think Jims plan was always flawed?

M




The price of the RED ONE is so low that we would lose money if we threw in a case!

Jim


Martin a pelican case for a RED will set you back like $100 - $150 and that is list price. So what would a case actually cost to build? I think RED is going to have to make a little more money per camera then this to keep running.

I think it will be quite likely for RED to double or triple the price. I feel the initial prices were a marketing gig to get the camera out to people that needed a camera but didn't have the large $$ to do so. In the end it is great marketing to get your product out to a bunch of people and make everyone else envy what they have. I think it is probably a lot cheaper then actually marketing by having a bunch of events to try and lure buyers in. Filmakers will see what indy's and lower budget productions are doing with this camera and want one bad.

All I can say for sure is that for us that reserved early we pay 17,500. For those that try and buy later my guess is you will be paying more.

[Martin Drew]

Martin a pelican case for a RED will set you back like $100 - $150 and that is list price. So what would a case actually cost to build?

I would budget $50


I think RED is going to have to make a little more money per camera then this to keep running.

I think it will be quite likely for RED to double or triple the price. I feel the initial prices were a marketing gig to get the camera out to people that needed a camera but didn't have the large $$ to do so. In the end it is great marketing to get your product out to a bunch of people and make everyone else envy what they have. I think it is probably a lot cheaper then actually marketing by having a bunch of events to try and lure buyers in. Filmakers will see what indy's and lower budget productions are doing with this camera and want one bad.

All I can say for sure is that for us that reserved early we pay 17,500. For those that try and buy later my guess is you will be paying more.

I would be prepared to bet a Fedora shaped cake (seems to be the going rate these days) that he doesn't put the price up radically. If anything I would expect the price to come down long term.

To me the model Jim appears to be following is based on higher volume sales which allows much lower margins. That is consistent with everything he has said so far. Lower margins however means that there is less per unit fat in the profits. I don't think Jims statement about cases should be taken to imply that Red are only making $50 per camera, merely that they have cut out all the fat in their profit margins so $50 less profit would not be somewhere they wanted to go, this has to take into account the costs involved in growing the company and the return Jim expects on his investment.

If you are right and the price is set to go up then they would have no problem chucking in a case too, it would only be a lost profit for the reservation folders after all. If they were subsequently doubling the price they should be able to swallow an extra $50 per unit for long term sales.

M

[Stephen Williams]

IIf you are right and the price is set to go up then they would have no problem chucking in a case too, it would only be a lost profit for the reservation folders after all. If they were subsequently doubling the price they should be able to swallow an extra $50 per unit for long term sales.

M

Hi Martin,

Exactly, If the price doubled or trippled I think future sales would slump.

Stephen

[Blair S. Paulsen]

No matter how smart the folks are that the Red Leader has hired to deal with production of the RedOne in quantity, at this point, the cost of building them is a set of "projections". Once they have built, tested and shipped a few hundred units they will be able to give Jim a much better estimate of actual costs and ideas for streamlining the process.

IMHO, until then no one, not even the Red Leader, can make an informed statement about the long term pricing on the camera.

[Martin Drew]

I think once the design is locked down production costs should be quite possible to predict pretty accurately. More significant is the projection of how many people are going to buy the camera. That is the real speculative projection and key given the intention to ship volume.

[tj williams]

This camera is being made by a guy who owns a company selling sunglasses that retail for $100+ they are very cool sunglasses. They sell tens of thousands of pairs each year. They make quite a decent markup. figure cost of mfg. marketing is $30 a pair wholesale at $50. gross markup about $20 a pair. figuring after the development costs are paid on the first 100,000 pairs of a given style.

Red camera basic body with LCD. $17,500 they are the retailer. so receive the entire price. If the red costs $10,500 based on the same math and they have a gross markup of $7000 lets imagine that development costs are recovered at Nab 2007 when sales go over 2,000 units. This allows development costs of about 14M. Now this is a pretty good percentage of the high end HD type cameras that will be sold this next year so they will dominate the market. They will sell you magazines which contain drives costing them about $400 and a case costing about $100 to $200 for a $1000 each. All of us will need a minimum of two magazines. Thus they will have a gross markup of about 8M Now you will also be needing a battery mount, some red rail to mount it on a shoulder pad for hand held, a red rail or light weight support for your lenses. wanna use Nikons then you need a nikon mount, maybe you need a RED raid for 444 etc etc etc etc. Sure other companies are welcome to compete for these extra sales but they are at a disadvantage both in marketing and technical integration. An example of this is how discussion of open software approaches using Cineform etc have dissapeared here. This is a smart high tech business which will probably be in profit in the second year or the third at latest. They will probably be dominant in their business as they are marketing gurus in a world occupied by engineers. Reminds me of the story... How do you know when an engineer is an extrovert????......He looks at your shoes... SI is delivering a camera right now. It seems to work quite well. Their buzz is minimal. Hey this is a great business model not some charity for starving indy filmmakers. I for one would love to be able to buy stock... but alas.

RE the price of accessories. There are two posts on this thread by knowledgeable business people who have clearly explained why the prices of accessories are as they are and they have been ignored by those who have an agenda to imagine that RED or for that matter any other company is run for their benefit. Bottom line here its a free country if you can start a company to make matt boxes cheaper than Bob Petroff or Chrozeil then go for it and you will discover why they cost what they do.

[Antoine Baumann]

No matter how smart the folks are that the Red Leader has hired to deal with production of the RedOne in quantity, at this point, the cost of building them is a set of "projections". Once they have built, tested and shipped a few hundred units they will be able to give Jim a much better estimate of actual costs and ideas for streamlining the process.

IMHO, until then no one, not even the Red Leader, can make an informed statement about the long term pricing on the camera.

Totaly agree.

About the accessories, I am going to buildt up the best cine RED package I can afford, and rent (at least for the time to rise money again) what I cannot. So count on me if there is good price/quality cine accessories.

I have already ordered the RED zoom and I would definitely buy RED (or any other brand) matte box and follow focus, if at good quality for decent price (it could be between 500-750 $ each). And I would most definitely buy more accessories if there is a package deal... as much as I can afford:-)

antoine