Pocket Camera

[JimmyC]

Ok, so...

engineering delays for the One and all...

Hows about we have a little more info on the pocket cam!

Jim

[Chris Nuzzaco]

I would have to agree.

Please!!!! :w00t:

I'm on the fence camera wise... I'm holding out on buying an Andromeda DVX100 till I hear more about this pocket red.

[Phillip Hudson]

A little teaser info would be great.

Give it up! :gun:

[Obin Olson]

I am really having a hard time using the hvx as of late....really really shitty image. I am sick and tired of the shitty images I am forced to shoot with "video"

[JimmyC]

Have you tried using a 35mm adapter?

Try as i might, i just cant get the sums to add up as justification on buying a Red One - not yet anyway!

So unless the pocket cam comes good with some sweet DOF and the option to use primes, it looks like I will be bolting an adapter to a canon A1!

Jim

[Michael Ragen]

I hear ya about the HVX. It's not bad for the money, but I get so depressed looking at shots from the HVX next to Canon 30d production stills from the same shoot. Any one have any drugs that will make me sleep for the next 3 months? Nothing coma inducing please. Can't wait to hear about the Pocket Red.

[Michael Ragen]

The adapters are great if you have fast lenses and don't mind the light loss. Of course focusing on a shitty lcd is terrible.

[Alex Boothby]

So unless the pocket cam comes good with some sweet DOF and the option to use primes..

Not many primes fit in your pocket. I'd expect the pocket cam to have a smaller chip (hense no 35mm DOF.) That's what Red One is for.

Just a guess.

[JimmyC]

Well i guess what I am really looking for is a pocket size price!!

somthing that will compete on bones with a DVX... but with the Red way of doing things... modular!! And if i can stick on my 35mm lenses and get sweet bokeh i will be stoked!

Jimbo

[Chris Nuzzaco]

I am really having a hard time using the hvx as of late....really really shitty image. I am sick and tired of the shitty images I am forced to shoot with "video"

Shoot something at:

1080 24PA
Pedestal +7
detail level 0
V detail level 0
detail coring 0
chroma level +7
chroma phase 0
color temp 0
gama cinelike D (yes, the light washed out one...)
matrix cine-like
skin tone detail 0ff
operation Film Cam
180 degree shutter
24 FPS

Make sure you "expose to the right" (don't burn out any highlights of course), and also make sure that your scene's reflectance isn't greater than about 4.5 stops at most... color correct in something like After Effects at 1080, then when its all done, down res to 720p. Looks much better than all of those "scene files" I see floating around, lower noise too.

Just a quick note, this is really an approach that requires careful lighting for the full effect to be seen.

As for HVX noise, well, thats why I'm so seriously looking at Andromeda DVX, also has better latitude.

[Bruce Allen]

The adapters are great if you have fast lenses and don't mind the light loss. Of course focusing on a shitty lcd is terrible.

Agreed ;) I'm pretty close to a solution to that problem...

Of course I'd love to hear about the Pocket Red. We were told "weeks" right? But I will not hold them to it - it's just cool that they released the info at all...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Jeremy Teman]

Shoot something at:

1080 24PA
Pedestal +7
detail level 0
V detail level 0
detail coring 0
chroma level +7
chroma phase 0
color temp 0
gama cinelike D (yes, the light washed out one...)
matrix cine-like
skin tone detail 0ff
operation Film Cam
180 degree shutter
24 FPS

Make sure you "expose to the right" (don't burn out any highlights of course), and also make sure that your scene's reflectance isn't greater than about 4.5 stops at most... color correct in something like After Effects at 1080, then when its all done, down res to 720p. Looks much better than all of those "scene files" I see floating around, lower noise too.

Just a quick note, this is really an approach that requires careful lighting for the full effect to be seen.

As for HVX noise, well, thats why I'm so seriously looking at Andromeda DVX, also has better latitude.

Chroma level +7? It starts looking a bit cartoonish at that point don't you think... Just my opinion

[Chris Nuzzaco]

Chroma level +7? It starts looking a bit cartoonish at that point don't you think... Just my opinion

I should have been more clear, this is an approach that optimizes your post production color correction choices, and no, it doesn't look cartoonish. Remember, once you throw away color info, its gone... better off highly saturated and balanced correctly for the light source. Post desaturate to pull the color intensity down if you wish. Try it out, you'll see what I mean.

Hope that helps!

[Zach Hilton]

Agreed ;) I'm pretty close to a solution to that problem...

Of course I'd love to hear about the Pocket Red. We were told "weeks" right? But I will not hold them to it - it's just cool that they released the info at all...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

Bruce, you've mentioned a few times about your solution to that problem. More info? You've peaked my interest.

[Nook Kim]

The adapters are great if you have fast lenses and don't mind the light loss. Of course focusing on a shitty lcd is terrible.

And how about edge focus issue? It was a real pain shooting a feature on it.
Having to compromise my composition is not something I'd like to do ever
again. Though, I must admit that set up gave me some amazing results when
lit well. But, again, I shouldn't compare an 8-bit camera to Red One, should I? ;)

Nook

[Bruce Allen]

Bruce, you've mentioned a few times about your solution to that problem. More info? You've peaked my interest.

I posted about it somewhere:
http://www.boacinema.com/projects/lcd_monitor/
By the way, I just found out today that is works with PAL 1080i / 720p / SD too... awesome! I'm trying to make it the "Red equivalent" to the current expensive, low-res monitors on the market. Except, unlike Red it's totally ghetto and homebuilt and modest. I'm designing the case right now.


And how about edge focus issue? It was a real pain shooting a feature on it.
Having to compromise my composition is not something I'd like to do ever
again. Though, I must admit that set up gave me some amazing results when
lit well. But, again, I shouldn't compare an 8-bit camera to Red One, should I? ;)
Nook

Janghos, which 35mm adapter were you using? I agree, edge focus is a major issue... Had some encouraging results recently with the sgpro and some Nikons though... will post links to video & stills (once I've finished abovementioned monitor case design).

Ah man, I just wish that Red would tell us what the lens system is likely to be (fixed or removable?)... I'm not trying to start a big debate about fixed / removable lenses but would love it if Red could give me a hint so I know whether to buy Nikons, the Red zoom, or hold onto my money. If they allow Nikons or Red zoom, I could buy those and get good use out of them with a 35mm adapter while I wait for the Pocket Red. If they're going to go with another system or just build in a high-quality lens, then I can know to save my money...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[el_cheapo]

i would be happy with 1080p in redcode, and hopfully the ability to change lenses. I cant seem to find a prosumer cam that doesnt come with a catch...
I wonder what the price will be. perhaps around that of the hvx200? I second the suggestion for some teaser info... :detective2:

[Emanuel A.]

We were told "weeks" right?Months, Bruce. They should be months.

[Nook Kim]

Janghos, which 35mm adapter were you using? I agree, edge focus is a major issue... Had some encouraging results recently with the sgpro and some Nikons though... will post links to video & stills (once I've finished abovementioned monitor case design).

Hi Bruce,
I was using Redrockmicro's M2 adapter. I know I should have pushed harder
for a better one, but well, it's the past. Yes, I really liked Nikons at the sweet spots.

[Bruce Allen]

Hi Bruce,
I was using Redrockmicro's M2 adapter. I know I should have pushed harder
for a better one, but well, it's the past. Yes, I really liked Nikons at the sweet spots.

Hey, don't apologize. I looked at the clips, trailers, etc on your site and they looked damn great! All they need to be is good enough so that if a brave producer sees your stuff, they'll say, "wow, look what he did. I bet if we gave him the proper equipment, he'd kick ass..." and I think you're in there with a fighting chance... I firmly believe that talent is key, equipment follows... but hey, if fate doesn't prove me right, you have a Red to back yourself up anyway - best of both worlds. Look forward to seeing what you do with it.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Milan Nikolic]

It is time for POCKET RED thread! We need to post our wish lists asap!

[Gordon Prince]

this one would rock..

[Stephen Gentle]

It is time for POCKET RED thread! We need to post our wish lists asap!

This has been done several times before... Just run a search

[Álex Montoya]

2K REDCODE to Compactflash or even internal memory, mount to use 35 still photography and 16 mm lenses. Sensor size and DOF similar to S16. Something like a Mini SI 2K without the need of a RAID as recording media. 7000 bucks. That's my guess.

[Jeremy Hughes]

It is time for POCKET RED thread! We need to post our wish lists asap!


This has been done several times before... Just run a search

I believe he meant a section. Not just a thread. Like the RED Think Tank Contest section at DVXuser. But not a contest. Or just a section for discussion on the RED Pocket Camera.

I want it to shoot RAW at 1080p, mostly because REDCODE RAW is much more effective than REDCODE RGB. 3x right? And I want the abillity to have much higher compression ratios; like 50:1.

[P Andersson]

a section is a good idea

[Joe Aurili]

A separate area would be great, since I believe the pocket camera might have a market just as large or perhaps much larger then red one. It will also keep the speculation out of the red one section.

[cckid]

Hi,

I couldn't resist posting on this subject. A section for the pocket camera would be more than welcome. And obivously a hint or two from the red team, alongside with a picture of the prototype would keep our will for waiting strong enough for months to come. C'mon red, bring it on, show us magic of the pocket camera.

[JimmyC]

Yup, I agree!

I think there are many people on this board who require sectioning.

:p

[Mark K.]

My suspicion with the Red pocket camera is that it's going to provide what we call the "prosumer" market with a digital equivalent of something like the Aaton A-minima 16mm camera.

That is: a lightweight camera, with a highly portable form-factor, that shoots 2k (16mm equivalent) resolution footage through (possibly interchangable) 16mm glass.

Think about it. If what Red One will do is bring the cost of a camera that can shoot 35mm equivalent footage (i.e. Cinema quality footage) down to the cost of TV broadcast cameras. Then their next logical step is to bring the cost of camera that can shoot 16mm equivalent footage (i.e. for documentaries and short films) down from TV broadcast camera costs to prosumer camera costs.

If they can do that, my bet is they'll sweep all before them.... and make me a very happy man!

[dvpixl]

that would be both logical and awesome.

[dalemccready]

I like the idea of a second "run and gun" camera that will cut in with the Red One. Something you can mount on a quad bike or actor's head or long stick and get up to some mischief with (where you wouldn't let your precious Red one get scuffed).

For me the red equivalent of an eyemo would be great.

[Poi Boy]

Yes but let's keep it 4K ! Until I hear differently from the big guy, I'm insisting on 4K. Why wouldn't you ?
Aloha
-A

[Álex Montoya]

No 4K for sure. The sensor would be too big. The digital equivalent to super 16 is probably the answer.

[Poi Boy]

4k for sure, the sensor is small, super 16 not good enough.
-A

[Álex Montoya]

We're talking a POCKET CAMERA here. But I accept a bet.

[ColinSmith]

Just can't see super35-4k being possible.
Would be very happy with super35-2k, but not so sure on the chances.
Super16-2k seems the most likely.

But if Red want to prove me wrong I'd be delighted :-)

Main thing, just give it interchangeable lenses and let Birger do an EOS mount.....

[Ken Willinger]

It's been almost 2 months since they announced this at NAB and we've not heard anything regarding what this camera (which I heard refered to at a FCPUG last night as "Pink") will be except for all the wild speculation on the boards. Would be nice to get a little hint from the team.

[Nick Shaw]

Would be nice to get a little hint from the team.

Give them a chance. I suspect they're pretty busy at the moment!

All they announced at NAB was their intention to build a Pocket Professional Camera, and also 4k displays and projectors. After that announcement of intent, I think it's fair enough that they put those on the back burner until the RED ONE is delivered.

[Craig Schober]

It's been almost 2 months since they announced this at NAB and we've not heard anything regarding what this camera (which I heard refered to at a FCPUG last night as "Pink") will be except for all the wild speculation on the boards. Would be nice to get a little hint from the team.

i think the team is waiting until the first few waves of red one ship. otherwise they might face a bunch of cancellations from reservation holders already over budget and not even be able to take those new reservations for the mini-red. i think it's just too soon both technically and business wise.

[RayFrisby]

I know others may not agree but I really would love to see the new Red Mini take on the HVX;
With a modular design to allow it be added too much like the Red only 2K with interchangeable lense (one that can take affordable alternatives and some form of professional lense too) also a greater dynamic range.

I was thinking something about the size of the Canon XHA1 even smaller. Imagine a body that is the EVF with room for attachments; and just like the Red you can add to it as you go.

I guess the main thing for a camera in the price range would be to incorporate features (or at least allow them to be added) such as LCD, Focus assist, ND's , balanced audio, zebras etc...

[Jay A. Kelley]

I could get in trouble for this, but do you guys really think they are moving much at all on this pocket camera right now? Everyone keeps asking about this thing as if someone at RED is building it, or even designing it right now..

Perhaps they are, but I am betting, given the size of the company at this point, that everyone's waking moments are all about getting the damn RED one out the friggin door!

Speculate about the pocket camera if you enjoy doing so, but understand, I am fairly certain specifics, ANY kind of specifics at this point are useless. Let's get the 50-100 products they already have in production out the door BEFORE the end of the year, before we start asking about news ones.

IMHO.....

:)

Jay

[Kyle Presley]

I could get in trouble for this, but do you guys really think they are moving much at all on this pocket camera right now? Everyone keeps asking about this thing as if someone at RED is building it, or even designing it right now..

Perhaps they are, but I am betting, given the size of the company at this point, that everyone's waking moments are all about getting the damn RED one out the friggin door!

Speculate about the pocket camera if you enjoy doing so, but understand, I am fairly certain specifics, ANY kind of specifics at this point are useless. Let's get the 50-100 products they already have in production out the door BEFORE the end of the year, before we start asking about news ones.

IMHO.....

:)

Jay

AMEN!

[Eugene]

do you guys really think they are moving much at all on this pocket camera right now?

No, they probably haven't done anything yet, and they would be smart not to untill OLEDs and 16GB SD cards are availabe and are at a good price point. But it doesn't take much to make an axonometric computer rendering of what they (the RED team) intend on producing some day. A few important specs would be nice to know, like weather or not it will have auto focus.

If you look at Apple Inc., they made great computers for a long time, but they barely made a profit. It wasn't untill they sold mass market consumer products like the iPod, that they made insane profits. The RED ONE is an insanely good product, but if RED wants to make insane profits, they will have to make an inexpensive consumer grade product.

The Canon TX1 is on backorder untill who knows when (maybe christmas.)
They need something like that, except they need to leap frog ahead of it.

Look at Leica. They make great stuff, but if they didn't lend their name of consumer stuff made by Panasonic, Leica would be broke.

Jenoptik make some great products, but they had to liscense their name to Concord camera. I hope that RED never becomes that desperate.

It was said that the RED pocket cam will be pro. I hpe they mean it will be well designed and built (like the iPod and iPhone). I hope that it is priced under $2,000. $500 would be ideal. RED needs a high volume product. Where would Ferrari be without Fiat.

The pocket camera by RED will be the difference between a company that breaks even and a company that makes insane profits.

So RED team, please don't tease. Show the world what you got so far on the pocket cam, even if it is just a doodle on a napkin.

[Poi Boy]

I don't think they are going to make the pocket RED a TX1 type consumer cam.
Aloha
-A

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I don't think they'd release an under $2,000 camera, LOL, maybe I'm wrong but that seems like a totally different market segment. I really don't think that's where the company's interests lie.

It's true that if you really want to make huge profits you need some type of simple device that consumers can afford, Apple is a great example of that, because Apple computers have been the best and fastest computers on the market now for years, at the high ends, but not very many people really buy a super high end Mac Pro. They really started making the cash on the iMac, which in my opinion was a pretty crappy product at first (it was advertised entirely based on COLORS and how easy it was, so it was basically a total idiot's ideal computer), and of course the iPod, which has been a ridiculous profit cow for them. There's just a very small market for people who have $10,000 to spend on a desktop computer, or $25,000 at least to spend on a camera package, etc. But that doesn't mean the market isn't big enough to exploit still, obviously. Off topic, I ordered the new MacBook Pro two days ago, fully loaded, 17" 1920 x 1200 display, 160 gig 7200 rpm hard drive, 4 gigs of RAM, Intel Core Duo 2 2.4 Ghz processor, etc. Should be fun to play around with... my current laptop is just a MacBook I got at the end of last year for simple stuff only, 12" screen, small hard drive, really only for my writing, checking my e-mail, browsing the net, etc. But it's really lightweight which I love.

I would imagine the RED Mini would be more like the SI-2K mini.

[John Godden]

Ray

I TOTALLY agree with on this. I'd love for the mini-red to be priced close to the HVX. Heck, even if it was 1/3 -1/2 more.............. say in the ~~~$8K range (lens included) it would probably put the HVX into a major tailspin or at least push Pani to update it.

Looking forward to 2008. That may be the year for the mini.

Regards
JohnG


I know others may not agree but I really would love to see the new Red Mini take on the HVX;
With a modular design to allow it be added too much like the Red only 2K with interchangeable lense (one that can take affordable alternatives and some form of professional lense too) also a greater dynamic range.

I was thinking something about the size of the Canon XHA1 even smaller. Imagine a body that is the EVF with room for attachments; and just like the Red you can add to it as you go.

I guess the main thing for a camera in the price range would be to incorporate features (or at least allow them to be added) such as LCD, Focus assist, ND's , balanced audio, zebras etc...

[John Godden]

Red would have NO chance competing in the $2K market. That's offshore territory! :w00t:


No, they probably haven't done anything yet, and they would be smart not to untill OLEDs and 16GB SD cards are availabe and are at a good price point. But it doesn't take much to make an axonometric computer rendering of what they (the RED team) intend on producing some day. A few important specs would be nice to know, like weather or not it will have auto focus.

If you look at Apple Inc., they made great computers for a long time, but they barely made a profit. It wasn't untill they sold mass market consumer products like the iPod, that they made insane profits. The RED ONE is an insanely good product, but if RED wants to make insane profits, they will have to make an inexpensive consumer grade product.

The Canon TX1 is on backorder untill who knows when (maybe christmas.)
They need something like that, except they need to leap frog ahead of it.

Look at Leica. They make great stuff, but if they didn't lend their name of consumer stuff made by Panasonic, Leica would be broke.

Jenoptik make some great products, but they had to liscense their name to Concord camera. I hope that RED never becomes that desperate.

It was said that the RED pocket cam will be pro. I hpe they mean it will be well designed and built (like the iPod and iPhone). I hope that it is priced under $2,000. $500 would be ideal. RED needs a high volume product. Where would Ferrari be without Fiat.

The pocket camera by RED will be the difference between a company that breaks even and a company that makes insane profits.

So RED team, please don't tease. Show the world what you got so far on the pocket cam, even if it is just a doodle on a napkin.

[Eugene]

There's just a very small market for people who have $10,000 to spend on a desktop computer
That is how much I spent on my Mac a few years ago, counting in the display, FCP software, memory upgrades, G-raids, etc. Then I spent about $25,ooo filming and produning my DVD movie. Looking back, I should have just invested $35,ooo in Apple stock and I would have been way ahead. But that is just looking at it from a profit point of view. Is Jim running his company soley to generate income, or to have fun. I had lots of fun making my DVD and would do it again, even if I just break even.

[Eugene]

the $2K market. That's offshore territory!
That sounds good. Built the pocket RED in Japan for $2K w/ 2K.
http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=JPY&to=EUR&amt=1000&t=5y
Don't laugh. They yen is way down vs. the euro. If the Red pocket cam isn't built for another three years, the yen will be down so low that RED can use all the euros they take in from sales in europe and convert them to yen to pay to have a 2K pocket cam built for them in Japan.

[Chris Nuzzaco]

I know Red is a digital cinema camera company, but did anyone stop and think about the *remote* possibility that Red will take the Mysterium sensor and put it into a DSLR and grab up a piece of that market action? I don't know of any DSLR's out there right now that can claim 11ish stops of latitude...

Another point worth considering, they said they will BEGIN development on this camera, which I bet has yet to start, and, when it finally does, probably will not be ready to go for at least 2 years (R&D), maybe longer even, the Red One still needs to bring in a profit first you know.

Just my 2 cents.

[Poi Boy]

I don't think it will take that long once they get red one sorted and shipping. As far as dslr, why ? there are plenty of fish in that sea.
Aloha
-A

[Chris Nuzzaco]

I don't think it will take that long once they get red one sorted and shipping. As far as dslr, why ? there are plenty of fish in that sea.
Aloha
-A

And why not? With a sensor that good, they could easily tear up the market and make a tidy profit. Lets not forget that they are not lens specific either. Think about it:

A DSLR that trumps all others in dynamic range, AND you can mount what ever glass you feel like on it. Canon, no problem, Nikon, covered, etc... Now I DO understand the implication of hand grip control over the lenses and such, but thats what reverse engineering is for :)

[Poi Boy]

that is just it, it does not trump on dr. at least not on my digital back and I think not on the top of the line canon. Aside from that, I could be wrong, but I think Jim just wants to rule the cine world. He doesn't really need more money but being a legend would be nice.
Aloha
-A