New 1.7 Primes for the RED ONE from Germany:

[laguun]

Dear Ladies and Gentleman,

please allow us to inform you that the new developped red-specific set of primes now passed, after a long time in research in development, the final stages of testing.

The image quality is outstanding, the stop ~ 1.7,
Almost / no visible ramping / breathing.
The price will be low - in the range of the revolutionary price red brought you. Ecnomies of scale.

Betatest will be closing down within the next 2 weeks - anyone interested can join in Berlin (Babelsberg) and Munich.

Expect still and moving images within the next 2 weeks.


sincerly yours
jan yorick von krogh

p.s.
i would strictly recommend anyone who is in the market for used/old lenses to hold their breath for the next 14 days.

[Tico Llaurador]

Looking forward to that, Jan. Danke!

[laguun]

as the betatest is closing down, please allow us to invite red-owners to participate:


http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26917

I and several DoPs already are, lets say, fascinated.

for the last week of shooting, anyone owning a red is invited to join.

[Thomas Dobbie]

Sounds fascinating,but is the shooting only taking place in Berlin & Munich?
Pity,I'm working all next week,but please keep us up to date with any information you can share.
Tom.

[Sven Seynaeve]

Can't wait to get some more info...and grabs of course.

[Vigna Raajan]

Wow...2009 - Year of lenses?

[laguun]

Sounds fascinating,but is the shooting only taking place in Berlin & Munich?
Pity,I'm working all next week,but please keep us up to date with any information you can share.
Tom.

Berlin and Munich only for the next 14 days - sorry.

[Tim Whitcomb]

2 Weeks? Moving images?

YES!!

[laguun]

2 Weeks? Moving images?

YES!!

Shooting right now.

It seems the 25 and the 95 are the coolest lenses if i interpret the footage correctly.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

What lenses are these? I'm assuming they're something yet again different than the IB/E primes?

Any chance of beta testers on the other side of the planet?

[laguun]

What lenses are these?

New Primes.

first batch: 25, 32, 50, 75, 95 1.7 Arri PL Primes.
Optical quality in the upper echelon. Think mid between UltraPrimes and MasterPrimes. You cant know them so far.



I'm assuming they're something yet again different than the IB/E primes?

correct.
Schott
http://www.schott.com/uk/english/index.html
would be rather intersing than ibe and laguun.




Any chance of beta testers on the other side of the planet?
The american betatesters are a very small crowd.
I suppose we will deliver soon - as quality and mechanics now already have been approved and are on typical german / japanese level.

Final beta stage is in Berlin the next 14 days.

[Raphael Varandas]

Great Words...waiting this news

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Interesting. Also you say the stop is 1.7 and say "F1.7" So what would be the actual T-stop? I'm assuming something similar to 1.8 or 1.9, or is this still to be determined?

[laguun]

Interesting. Also you say the stop is 1.7 and say "F1.7" So what would be the actual T-stop? I'm assuming something similar to 1.8 or 1.9, or is this still to be determined?

T would be rather 1.9ish - as the Arri Ultraprimes.
However, we want to measure the T, especially in the wide lens / s35 combo a bit more before confirming the absence of straylight etc.

[Brian Broz]

Excellent news!
Looking forward to updates...

[Robert Berger]

New Primes.

first batch: 25, 32, 50, 75, 95 1.7 Arri PL Primes.
Optical quality in the upper echelon. Think mid between UltraPrimes and MasterPrimes. You cant know them so far.


correct.
Schott
http://www.schott.com/uk/english/index.html
would be rather intersing than ibe and laguun.



The american betatesters are a very small crowd.
I suppose we will deliver soon - as quality and mechanics now already have been approved and are on typical german / japanese level.

Final beta stage is in Berlin the next 14 days.

WHAT PRIZES ARE YOU THINKING?

Regards Robert

[laguun]

WHAT PRIZES ARE YOU THINKING?

Regards Robert

PRICES WHICH DONT REQUIRE CAPSLOCK! ;)

we will most certainly offer an *outstanding* offer for red-owners.

we will slash the prices as red did, so think about -70-85% of usual prices. we certainly wont reach -90% as red did (optics and mechanics are different from electronics and software) but the massive volume indeed helps.

[Paul Andon]

Hi Jan,
even at the $5000 price point, I cannot afford cine lenses so I have been running my R1 on Nikon primes. (Some of these primes are excellent if you have a decent FF).

However this Monday I have booked a lens test session with my local Zeiss importer. I was intending to test and then purchase two lenses: the Carl Zeiss Planars T 1.4/50 & 1.4/85 ZF (for Nikon mount) these are cost around 1000 EUR each.

So my questions are these:

(1)Regarding my Monday appointment, could you please give me a clue as to how much more expensive your lenses will be in relation to the Carl Zeiss Planars ZF(for Nikon mount). i.e. is it’s closer to a factor of two or ten? an intention would be very helpful. I realise you don’t know your volumes yet?

(2)Also, a strange question I know, but as you are intending volume sales, are your lenses ever likely to be released on a Nikon mount for the high end stills market? i.e. I’m trying to work out if it is time for me to “bite the bullet” and run my R1 on the PL mount?

In summary, can I come out to play with the big boys yet? Or do I still have to tell the crew not to breath as I pull focus on my Nikon 1.4-50 :-)

Paul

[James T Mather]

Are there likely to be wider lenses at any stage?


And will the coverage meet the 30x15mm of the epic sensor?

Thank you.

James.

[Clint Childers]

I don't suppose these new lenses will cover Full Frame 36mmX24mm will they? It would be wonderful if they did. I feel that Full Frame Cinematography will become the norm, in the near future. Full Frame has benefits, like Increased dynamic Range etc. So I really hope they cover it. That's what I've been keeping a look out for. Especially the emergence of Full Frame Anamorphic lenses. Any Beta testing of those? :)

[Adrian T.]

Are there likely to be wider lenses at any stage?

Second that question. It would be great to add an 18 and a 14 mm.

Apart from that the offer sounds really promising.

[Matthew Rogers]

There will be a lens wider than 14mm. At least that's what I've been told.

[Stephen Pruitt]

Full frame or S35 only????

This does sound really intriguing.

Stephen

[Marc Berger]

Jan,
what great news!
I`m sure you created fantastic lenses, trust you 100%.
(Bist´n wilder Hund):bleh:

liebe Grüsse

Marc

[sander kamp]

We will slash the prices as red did, so think about -70-85% of usual prices.

Usual prices of what? Ultra primes, Master primes...?

[David Birdy]

Great news....I'll wait two weeks..
Please keep us updated!

Dave

[DeaneThrussell]

you Legends....Thank you for doing this...this is what the marketplace needs lense prices have been going silly

[Ramesh Jai]

Are you also going to sell lenses individually or only as a set? When can we expect a macro lens? Thanks

[albert rudnicki]

Whoever comes first with affordable quality glass is a winner; I am both intrigued and excited.
Great news!

Cheers

[Nick Gardner]

I'm interested to see what people consider low priced.

Nick

[Matt Uhry]

Fly out to LA and do a Demo. I'll pick you up at LAX and arrange a Red and a test venue.

Flights's are $550...

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Luca Immesi]

Subscribed.

[Sanjin Jukic]

Enough bluffs, but specs, pictures and prices.

[Roberto B]

Fly out to LA and do a Demo. I'll pick you up at LAX and arrange a Red and a test venue.

Flights's are $550...

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.comhotel too?.. night party included.. and you as DoP?.. it worths your care jan..

[Matthew Rogers]

Enough bluffs, but specs, pictures and prices.

Laguun has sent some of us specs and other information already, but we have been asked not to reveal any of it. Let's just say that if the specs and price live up to what he says, they should be very nice lenses! But hopefully in the next week's time we should see some sample images and possibly some footage.

It would be nice though, to see a picture of one of the lenses.

Matthew

[Gregory Karydis]

Definitely interested.

[Frank Weeks]

Jan

I noticed that you have been less active on reduser over the last couple months. Now I know why. You've been busy creating lenses.:calm:

Must admit, I am intrigued.

[Matt Uhry]

hotel too?.. night party included.. and you as DoP?.. it worths your care jan..

Some LA night party stuff could be arranged. I might not be the guy for that, mostly don't go west of Fairfax if I can help it.

I'd be happy to "DP" the test, but subjective lens testing is not necessarily a pretty business...

What we can do is try to rope in David Mullen ASC, Evin Grant, Matt Duclos ( perhaps with the shops lens projector in tow ), the notorious wandering uber DIT Brook Willard, VFX guru Mark Weingarter, a set of Ultra Primes, S4's, Maybe Master Primes - to compare shot for shot, side by side.

Up for it Jan ?
( It's also was Sunny and 30c here today )

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

[Antoine Baumann]

this is fantastic news!! Cannot wait for more info and pictures.

thanks,
antoine.

[Liam Hall]

(1)Regarding my Monday appointment, could you please give me a clue as to how much more expensive your lenses will be in relation to the Carl Zeiss Planars ZF(for Nikon mount). i.e. is it’s closer to a factor of two or ten? an intention would be very helpful. I realise you don’t know your volumes yet?

(2)Also, a strange question I know, but as you are intending volume sales, are your lenses ever likely to be released on a Nikon mount for the high end stills market? i.e. I’m trying to work out if it is time for me to “bite the bullet” and run my R1 on the PL mount?

In summary, can I come out to play with the big boys yet? Or do I still have to tell the crew not to breath as I pull focus on my Nikon 1.4-50 :-)

Paul
Paul, Just a guess, but lagum quoted prices as being around 70-85% cheaper than usual. A cine prime lens 'usually' cost upwards of around $20,000 new. So that would make the price $3,000 or more.

As for a nikon mount, I'd have thought that is highly unlikely as these are cine lenses and as such wouldn't have the coverage. I could be wrong of course...

Also, why do you want the Zeiss 50mm 1.4 if you already have the Nikon 1.4? That Nikon is a great lens and the Zeiss ZFs are just Cosina lenses under the skin...

[Nick Gardner]

all the guys paying 20-35 k usd for 20 year old lenses will get....lets say not amused.

First of all, no one ever wasted their money buying quality, proven, industry valued lenses.

Second, put up or shut up. If some how the germans figured out how to turn out a 4 lens set of fantastic lenses for less than $5k a piece, great, lets see it.

This whole tease thing is lame and low rent.


Nick

[Joel Kaye]

First of all, no one ever wasted their money buying quality, proven, industry valued lenses.

Second, put up or shut up. If some how the germans figured out how to turn out a 4 lens set of fantastic lenses for less than $5k a piece, great, lets see it.

This whole tease thing is lame and low rent.


From Red to Monstro and a bunch of accessories in between this board has been a tease for hardware and software since day 1. This thread is no different. How long ago did RED announce a prime set? A year ago? If Laguun comes up with one in a couple weeks from announcing that'll be a world record around here from announcement to showing a physical product. He deserves a few weeks of slack to see what happens.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think he should post a render... After all, around here, if it's there's a render, it's real. :biggrin:


The two threads on this subject have been merged.

[Chris Pickle]

First of all, no one ever wasted their money buying quality, proven, industry valued lenses.

Second, put up or shut up. If some how the germans figured out how to turn out a 4 lens set of fantastic lenses for less than $5k a piece, great, lets see it.

This whole tease thing is lame and low rent.


Nick

I admit this does get a bit exhausting. New cameras and new gear are announced, but then they're delayed or they never show up.... It begins to desensitize us on any new announcements.

If you are in beta testing, then how can you not even post a picture?

Chris

[Paul Andon]

Paul, Just a guess, but lagum quoted prices as being around 70-85% cheaper than usual. A cine prime lens 'usually' cost upwards of around $20,000 new. So that would make the price $3,000 or more.

Also, why do you want the Zeiss 50mm 1.4 if you already have the Nikon 1.4? That Nikon is a great lens and the Zeiss ZFs are just Cosina lenses under the skin...

Liam,
thanks for that,
yes I think I was in denial.

As for going Zeiss ZF rather than sticking to my 1.4 Nikons, I’m getting sick of fixing the breathing and tracking problems in post. Everyone tells me that the ZFs don’t suffer these issues on the same level, because of better mechanics? Anyway I will know by close of business tomorrow.

Thanks again
Paul.

[Nicholas Shields]

There's a joke around the studio that uses the phrase "What's that in Red accessories years?". But seriously, if you're attempting to lure customers who are currently in need of glass by promising a great deal on new glass that isn't past beta yet, then you are doing fellow Red users a disservice. If you're product development is anything like almost every other Red-related product development, then everyone should take your timeline with a massive grain of salt. In other words, if someone needs glass now or soon, buy it. Don't wait on vapor. Please don't misunderstand this post as an attack - I'm simply giving other Red-users another "lens" on the situation.

Nick.

[Matt Gottshalk]

I think he should post a render... After all, around here, if it's there's a render, it's real. :biggrin:

.

QFTMFT.

Of course if the rendering has RADIOSITY it means that the product is shipping next week!

[Manuel Wenger]

i accidentally run into them Beta testing the new lenses, we had a little chat about the specs.
There main goal is to size them down in the shipping units, there are a little bulky right now. Hope i don´t get into trouble, releasing this snapshot from the testing site ;)

[Adrian T.]

i accidentally run into them Beta testing the new lenses, we had a little chat about the specs.
There main goal is to size them down in the shipping units, there are a little bulky right now. Hope i don´t get into trouble, releasing this snapshot from the testing site ;)

I see you're still on the alpha version. Here's a snapshot of the new beta version:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/673_1235946139.jpg

:wink:

[Tony Lorentzen]

Zeiss ZFs are just Cosina lenses under the skin...

Sorry, but that is simply not true. Sure - the Zeiss ZF lenses are assembled by Cosina and most parts of the housing is made in Japan - most likely also by Cosina. But the construction is developed by Zeiss and they also provide the glass and coating for these lenses.

[Liam Hall]

Sorry, but that is simply not true. Sure - the Zeiss ZF lenses are assembled by Cosina and most parts of the housing is made in Japan - most likely also by Cosina. But the construction is developed by Zeiss and they also provide the glass and coating for these lenses.

Designed by Zeiss, made by Cosina. That's all I'm saying and it seems you're agreeing with me. I might have phrased it poorly, but then I was educated in England.

[Chris Pickle]

i accidentally run into them Beta testing the new lenses, we had a little chat about the specs.
There main goal is to size them down in the shipping units, there are a little bulky right now. Hope i don´t get into trouble, releasing this snapshot from the testing site ;)

Wow... the new lenses come with a built in Matte Box. They're gonna put Arri out of business. :)

[George Paatashvili]

New Primes.

first batch: 25, 32, 50, 75, 95 1.7 Arri PL Primes.
Optical quality in the upper echelon. Think mid between UltraPrimes and MasterPrimes. You cant know them so far.


correct.
Schott
http://www.schott.com/uk/english/index.html
would be rather intersing than ibe and laguun.



The american betatesters are a very small crowd.
I suppose we will deliver soon - as quality and mechanics now already have been approved and are on typical german / japanese level.

Final beta stage is in Berlin the next 14 days.

According to this post ("first batch: 25, 32, 50, 75, 95 1.7 Arri PL Primes") these lenses will be manufactured by ARRI, is this correct?

[Evin Grant]

I think he's referring to "Arri PL" mount.

Laguun, this set will need a 16mm or 18mm to be taken seriously.
Regardless of quality. I am interested but please hold off posting any more till you have concrete info on manufacture, pricing and availability. Otherwise it's just noise.

[I Bloom]

Some LA night party stuff could be arranged. I might not be the guy for that, mostly don't go west of Fairfax if I can help it.

I'd be happy to "DP" the test, but subjective lens testing is not necessarily a pretty business...

What we can do is try to rope in David Mullen ASC, Evin Grant, Matt Duclos ( perhaps with the shops lens projector in tow ), the notorious wandering uber DIT Brook Willard, VFX guru Mark Weingarter, a set of Ultra Primes, S4's, Maybe Master Primes - to compare shot for shot, side by side.

Up for it Jan ?
( It's also was Sunny and 30c here today )

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

I might be in LA in a week or so. Love to do a test wit yall.

Ian

[sander kamp]

Paul, Just a guess, but lagum quoted prices as being around 70-85% cheaper than usual. A cine prime lens 'usually' cost upwards of around $20,000 new. So that would make the price $3,000 or more.

Arri Ultra Primes start at around $10,000 per lens for normal focal lengths, Master Primes around $18,000. But since the Master Primes are T1.3's I don't think you can compare to them as being usual. So that would make the price...

Oh hell, this guessing is stupid, we just have to wait.

[Shawn Nelson]

ooh, we're talking in the neighborhood of $3k per lens?

[Evin Grant]

Ultra primes are about $12K last time I checked Master Primes are close to $30K per lens. My guess is a retail price of about $5-7K per lens.

[Roberto B]

well.. $12k is 60% of $20k.. then we would be talking about $1,800 per lens.. $9,000 set of 5.. remember.. 70-85% cheaper than usual :wink:

[Steven-Marc C.]

Laguun has posted previously this about the price:

prices are still discussed, but think ~2000-3000 is an easy route to go.
Don't know if that's USD or Euros, but either way it would be the cheapest PL cine-glass available new.
It's interesting that this new glass seems to come from Schott, which, AFAIK is owned by Carl-Zeiss. (And also produces the glass for Schneider-Kreuznach)

[Van Din]

Under USD 10,000 per a set of five lenses and it is a possible purchase. Otherwise, with this crisis, it will not be easy to get the economies of scale.
________
BMW M88 HISTORY (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_M88)

[Matthew Rogers]

I think they are aiming for $15k-$30k USD (guessing the numbers he's posted are euros) for the lenses considering the previous posts. That seems reasonable for a set of 5 if they are good as Laguun says they are! I'm hoping closer towards $15k, but even at $30k that's not too bad considering the cheapest "true cine" primes are $35k.

Matthew

[Roberto B]

cine prices will not sale like peanuts

[sander kamp]

Ultra primes are about $12K last time I checked Master Primes are close to $30K per lens. My guess is a retail price of about $5-7K per lens.

Have a look here (http://www.cameraaccess.com).
Ultra Primes go from £ 6,652.26 and Master Primes go from £ 11,238.42. They say they ship internationally but of course I don't know if that is to the US.

[Liam Hall]

Have a look here (http://www.cameraaccess.com).
Ultra Primes go from £ 6,652.26 and Master Primes go from £ 11,238.42. They say they ship internationally but of course I don't know if that is to the US.

Am I missing something? The prices I see are £ 15,850.77 + VAT or similar...

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Am I missing something? The prices I see are £ 15,850.77 + VAT or similar...

Yeah, the prices look pretty ordinary to me. They seem to have a damn good price on that UP 8R though. Although, I haven't had one quoted in a while.

[conrad gaunt]

Cheaper PL mount glass would be great, but the price generally has been one way, up, and its taken too long for cheaper alternatives to arrive for me, so..

I bought the Zeiss ZFs, 28, 35, 50, 85 & 100, £3500 , for lower budget clients.

They're outstanding. I'll definately be looking at the 21 too. If money is tight, they're a no brainer if looking for new glass IMO

I wish I'd taken the Nikon route from day one..

[Mark K.]

LMAO @ people having a go at the OP for posting about products that are still a fair way away from release, and for being a "tease".

This site is still Reduser.net isn't it?

[Shawn Nelson]

Im really curious if these are comparable in price to the Red primes or way over or way under...

[Tony Lorentzen]

Designed by Zeiss, made by Cosina. That's all I'm saying and it seems you're agreeing with me. I might have phrased it poorly, but then I was educated in England.

You're not reading my post correctly. Glass (and most of the inside) come from Zeiss in Germany, but is assembled by Cosina (who also makes the casing). So we're both right :shifty:

[Chris Parker]

my guess is the sweet spot for the new-world 'economies of scale' PL lenses will be about 5 grand USD a pop. if you own old zeiss MK-series lenses, I would sell them while ya still can......in another year, their prices will be way less than they have been lately.....

[Matthew Duclos]

Whoever gets these lenses first, drop by the shop and I will do a REAL comparo test.

[Matthew Rogers]

Whoever gets these lenses first, drop by the shop and I will do a REAL comparo test.

I was thinking this morning how great it would be if Laguun could have a set sent to you for you to take apart and see how well they are made.

Matthew

[laguun]

final testing is progressing better than expecting.
images probably already early next or even _this_ weekend. we are excited.

several real world productions now have finished shooting with the new primes, as the beta turned more and more in real world production.

the mechanical design will probably be slightly adjusted before shipping in numbers.
the optical design, and thats the important thing, is keeping up well in the lab as well real world comparisions to ultras and s4s. masters are still faster, slightly faster however.

regarding prices & quality: expect nothing less than kickass.

real kickass. it seems feasible that we can do to lenses what red did to cameras.

[Ryan E. Walters]

I'm VERY interested to see both the results of the lenses and see what the final price point is- with Red coming out with their own primes and also touting great optics at low prices, it seems that the race is on...

[Tim Sutherland]

Whoever gets these lenses first, drop by the shop and I will do a REAL comparo test.

Would love to hear your thoughts on these lenses as well as the new Red primes.

Hopefully that can happen soon enough.

[Sanjin Jukic]

If those lenses that "Laguun" is talking/testing about are made by ISCO

than could maybe become one day a front "anamorphic" lenses because

ISCO is also making "Anamorphic Attachment 1.33x".

"Taking Lenses

The product range of taking lenses is in development and will contain a series
of fixed focal length lenses for broadcast applications with 4K-cameras as well
as anamorphic attachments with the factor 1.33x which enables Cinemascope
video films with horizontally compressed image content.

Broadcast 4K-Lenses
Anamorphic Attachment 1.33x"

LINK>>> (http://www.isco.eu/index.php?id=taking-lenses)

[Matthew Rogers]

Laguun, it would be great not only to see images from the lenses this weekend, but also at least one picture OF the lenses. If that's not possible because the maker doesn't want any pictures taken of them yet, then just let us know.

Matthew

[laguun]

we are having to much fun with this :)

we will release images this week.

prices, well probably as well but, i cant guarantee.
however - be prepared to a cool surprise, a _real_ cool surprise.

[laguun]

Laguun has posted previously this about the price:

Don't know if that's USD or Euros, but either way it would be the cheapest PL cine-glass available new.
It's interesting that this new glass seems to come from Schott, which, AFAIK is owned by Carl-Zeiss. (And also produces the glass for Schneider-Kreuznach)

Schott is larger than Zeiss and/or Arri - therefore they dont own them.

As a matter of fact, schott employs ~16* more people than Arri.

The glass we use if built by Schott - The same glass bought by Arri/Zeiss for their MP/UP Design.

edit:
http://www.schott.com/german/index.html

[Fredrik Callinggard]

My experience with lenses by now, is that optical design is quite possible for "affordable" price. I've done projector tests on most optics and found that they ALL achieve very well optically. The hard part is mechanically and so far only ZEISS/ARRI, COOKE and Angenieux stand out.

From what I read so far with all these new lenses it's all about optically, but what about mechanically? How do all these lenses live up to that?

PS: Im of course generalizing when I say they all achieve well optically.

[laguun]

My experience with lenses by now, is that optical design is quite possible for "affordable" price. I've done projector tests on most optics and found that they ALL achieve very well optically. The hard part is mechanically and so far only ZEISS/ARRI, COOKE and Angenieux stand out.

From what I read so far with all these new lenses it's all about optically, but what about mechanically? How do all these lenses live up to that?

PS: Im of course generalizing when I say they all achieve well optically.

Mechanical as well as optical quality have to be excellent for cinestyle primes.

Long term-support, fast, and on every continent is another important topic.

The warranty duration is another important decision factor when buying new
lenses - and one of the aspects one manufacturer can use to underline his interest and intention.

I suppose the lenses will be in the upper echelon in any of these aspects: warranty, duration of the waranty, on-continent service as well as mechanical quality level and quality assurance.

[Sanjin Jukic]

"Hoya and Shott, the two big (specialist) glass makers of this world.

...............


Schott is a subsidiary of Zeiss with a history going back to 1888.
Nikon makes its own glass and has done so since 1917 when they
were basically a subsidiary of the Imperial Japanese Navy.
The Nikon glass works and technology at that time was set up and
developed in conjunction with German Academics and Technicians.
While Zeiss had some pretty innovative weaponry optics in WWII,
Nikon did too. One example is the 15 metre wide optical rangefinders
for the 18.1 inch artillery pieces on the super battleships "Yamato" and
"Musashi" that had a range of 35 KM (21 miles)"

LINK>>> (http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/009xN8)

So I'm 100% sure that lenses Laguun is all the time talking about are made by ISCO Göttingen (http://www.isco.eu/index.php?id=taking-lenses)

based on Schott glass (lens flat glass elements) like all German cine and still lenses today.

[Brian McGraw]

The Carl Zeiss Foundation is the sole shareholder of Schott AG.

http://www.us.schott.com/english/company/facts.html

[Matthew Rogers]

So is ISCO and Schott part of the same company (both owned by the Zeiss foundation?) It would just seem weird that ISCO or Schott (if they are both a part of Zeiss) would compete with Zeiss since these lenses could very well take away business from the Zeiss Ultra/Master Prime lines.

Of course, it could be like the Vitec group which owns O'Connor, Sachtler & Viten. Those three directly compete against each other.


The glass we use if built by Schott - The same glass bought by Arri/Zeiss for their MP/UP Design.

Do you mean the glass *IS* built by Schott? The word "if" doesn't make a ton of sense with the rest of your sentence. But if it's the same glass bought by Arri for the Ultra primes, won't that just make these Ultra primes?

If you'd like help with your English before you post here, let me know. I can go over your post and make sure it makes sense.

Matthew

[Paul Hazlett]

I dont see these lenses as any direct competition for the big boys. sorta like the new ones are the toyata camry to the UP and MP of lexus. same company both good quality
just different needs.

[Joel Kaye]

I dont see these lenses as any direct competition for the big boys. sorta like the new ones are the toyata camry to the UP and MP of lexus. same company both good quality
just different needs.

But a Camry and a Mercedes are clearly different vehicles. I'm guessing mechanically and optically it'll be very tough to tell most of these lenses apart.

High quality fast zooms are still unique to the upper echelon of PL glass along with very fast wide angles but when it comes to primes... wow, there are a lot of good options.

If RED would have had their primes out 6 months ago they would have done well... but man... between Laguun's lenses, the fact that RED doesn't have an 18mm ready to go and the whole View Factor / Birger / Zeiss ZF thing...

Personally, the Birger/Viewfactor combo with I-data/wireless/programmable focus throw/compact/light/inexpensive with minimal breathing and plenty sharp really has my attention. I love the lenses... now it's just down to how well the VF makes focusing easier.

Man - the lens business is not one I'd want to be in right now.

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I'm guessing mechanically and optically it'll be very tough to tell most of these lenses apart.

Actually I wouldn't bet on it. I think we'll find that the difference is minimal yes, but that difference is in some cases A LOT.

I own many different lenses from Elites to Master Primes and there's plenty of difference there. They all have their own special characteristics and so they should. I choose lenses from this as a preference.

They all have prons and cons and the most perfect one is of course MP's .. Sometimes a bit to perfect and then I choose to shoot with other lenses.

I reckon these lenses are really good for what they are and that they will revolutionize our industry in some ways, but I don't think they'll completely out charm other lenses. The price point will be a winner for the masses but the question is if it's a winner for the ones who can choose freely.

After all there's a difference between a Subaru, Porsche and a Ferrari - even if they all go really fast.

[Stephen Williams]

So is ISCO and Schott part of the same company (both owned by the Zeiss foundation?) It would just seem weird that ISCO or Schott (if they are both a part of Zeiss) would compete with Zeiss since these lenses could very well take away business from the Zeiss Ultra/Master Prime lines.
Matthew

Hi,

They are separate businesses, so that they can compete. It's been shown many times that joining 2 similar companies produces negative shareholder value.

Stephen

[Roberto B]

my vote stephen.. you would be an interesting beta tester..

what do you jan think or do not think?.. :)

[Joel Kaye]

I reckon these lenses are really good for what they are and that they will revolutionize our industry in some ways, but I don't think they'll completely out charm other lenses.

I agree with you there. No doubt.

The real question is how much rental business are these cheaper lens solutions going to take away because people are buying instead of renting? I think you'll see rentals of high end lenses stay flat while total 35mm production skyrockets in the coming years.

These lenses (RED, Canon, Zeiss, ISCO) will impact the marketplace somehow. It'll be interesting.

[Tim Whitcomb]

p.s.
i would strictly recommend anyone who is in the market for used/old lenses to hold their breath for the next 14 days.

3 days to go and peope are turning blue... (or quite possibly RED with the new RED PRIME 1.8 update)

tick tick tick :sarcasm:

[Matthew Rogers]

I agree with you there. No doubt.

The real question is how much rental business are these cheaper lens solutions going to take away because people are buying instead of renting? I think you'll see rentals of high end lenses stay flat while total 35mm production skyrockets in the coming years.

These lenses (RED, Canon, Zeiss, ISCO) will impact the marketplace somehow. It'll be interesting.

I think these kinds of lenses will do much better in smaller markets like mine. The budgets around here are no $100,000+ budgets for commercials, but more in the $10,000-$20,000 range. So they aren't looking much at the Ultra Primes/S4's, but more the SuperSpeed and StandardSpeed lenses. And why not? Those older lenses still produce a great image, and if it's going to SD, it's much less of an issue. However, if I can offer lenses that are better optically (and that all has to do with a matter of taste and the effect you are going for), but rent for $300-$400 a day, I think there will be some takers.

The real question is, if they are optically and mechanically as good as Ultra Primes (optics I'm not too worried about, mechanics we'll see), will productions still get Ultras when they can spend half as much for lenses just as good. Basically, will people still pay for the name at that point? We'll see.

Post some grabs and some pictures of the actual lenses Laguun!

Matthew

[Constantine Philips]

Post some grabs and some pictures of the actual lenses Laguun!

I don't think so :)

[Martin Ludwig]

this is a little like the crisis at the moment. Does anybody really think that it could be possible for an company, which is a sister/brother company from another, can build competetive products "against" the sister with the same material (glass) and in a same quality but with a price around that what Laguun is saying here? Just think on the necessary power of a distribution needed to bring the products on the road. Even if you think on maybe 4 or 5 other companies trying to introduce new primes at NAB.
Even if you calculate, that every set of Zeiss HS Mark I and II must be replaced in the next 6 years - how many lenses you can sell ?

[Guidofilippi]

this is a little like the crisis at the moment. Does anybody really think that it could be possible for an company, which is a sister/brother company from another, can build competetive products "against" the sister with the same material (glass) and in a same quality but with a price around that what Laguun is saying here? Just think on the necessary power of a distribution needed to bring the products on the road. Even if you think on maybe 4 or 5 other companies trying to introduce new primes at NAB.
Even if you calculate, that every set of Zeiss HS Mark I and II must be replaced in the next 6 years - how many lenses you can sell ?

Yes, I think that Zeiss can do that. It´s a sort of "second brand": they can´t sell a Zeiss lens set almost as good as their top sets for half the price or less, but they can use another brand not directly related to do so. Otherwise, they simply loose a potential market of a few thousand lens sets (wich is a lot!)
Remember that Arri made a total of 17,000 cine cameras in its 90 years´history, while Red, SI 2k, Phantom, etc. already add some 5,000 cameras to the PL market. -

[Matthew Rogers]

The market is changing very rapidly from a video camera style market to a cine style. Tons of shoots that would have normally used a camera like the Varicam with a broadcast lens are now using the RED and cine lenses. That makes a huge difference because it's a much bigger market. Of course, you aren't going to capture the DIY/HGTV/ETC market because they need an ENG style camera. But anyone doing corporate videos and commercials are going to be much more open to cine lenses and accessories. Really, what RED has done is open up the cine style market to many people/companies that would have gone that route because there were no good PL mount video cameras.

Matthew

[Martin Ludwig]

Yes, I think that Zeiss can do that. It´s a sort of "second brand": they can´t sell a Zeiss lens set almost as good as their top sets for half the price or less, but they can use another brand not directly related to do so. Otherwise, they simply loose a potential market of a few thousand lens sets (wich is a lot!)
Remember that Arri made a total of 17,000 cine cameras in its 90 years´history, while Red, SI 2k, Phantom, etc. already add some 5,000 cameras to the PL market. -

you should know that Zeiss is also developing a new serie of primes together with bandpro. they will show them at NAB

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

I think a lower cost Zeiss series will do very well.

Stephen

[Roberto B]

how are you stephen?.. please do not ignore your friends.. :wink:

[Matthew Rogers]

Hi,

I think a lower cost Zeiss series will do very well.

But what will they look like? Will they be more like the smaller Super/Standard speeds, or bigger lenses like the Ultra/Master? Will they just be T2, or will they have even faster lenses? Will they just have a limited range, you know only like 6 or 7 focal distances?

It's looking like 2009 will be the year of the cine primes!

Matthew

[Mitch Gross]

you should know that Zeiss is also developing a new serie of primes together with bandpro. they will show them at NAB

BandPro is not exclusive on this product and will not be the only ones showing it.

[Stephen Williams]

But what will they look like? Will they be more like the smaller Super/Standard speeds, or bigger lenses like the Ultra/Master? Will they just be T2, or will they have even faster lenses? Will they just have a limited range, you know only like 6 or 7 focal distances?

It's looking like 2009 will be the year of the cine primes!

Matthew

Hi,

I would guess about T2 , lightweight steadycam friendly, bigger barrel rotation than standards, 18mm -135mm.
Jan's lenses would have to be about half the cost of Zeiss's to be interesting IMHO, from what he says they may well be.

Stephen

[Matthew Rogers]

Hi,

I would guess about T2 , lightweight steadycam friendly, bigger barrel rotation than standards, 18mm -135mm.
Jan's lenses would have to be about half the cost of Zeiss's to be interesting IMHO, from what he says they may well be.

That's pretty much what I was guessing--even what I figured in the focal range. I believe Mitch said at one point not to hold our breath on the lenses they were going to show at NAB for under $30,000.

But the question is, what can Arri/Zeiss do to these new lenses that won't make them compete with the Ultras? I can't really see them making optics that are not as good as the Ultras, nor can I see them making junk mechanics, so what do they do? All I can figure is that they will do the same that Agnux. did with the DP series-make them digital only. All I can figure is that the DP series is cheaper because the design is not as hard to build as the regular Optimos-both mechanically and optically.

Matthew

[Stephen Williams]

That's pretty much what I was guessing--even what I figured in the focal range. I believe Mitch said at one point not to hold our breath on the lenses they were going to show at NAB for under $30,000.

But the question is, what can Arri/Zeiss do to these new lenses that won't make them compete with the Ultras? I can't really see them making optics that are not as good as the Ultras, nor can I see them making junk mechanics, so what do they do? All I can figure is that they will do the same that Agnux. did with the DP series-make them digital only. All I can figure is that the DP series is cheaper because the design is not as hard to build as the regular Optimos-both mechanically and optically.

Matthew

Hi Matthew,

Only wider lenses or Zooms are cheaper to make them Digi Only like the Agnux.
I guess they wont be quite so well corrected, slightly simpler focus scales, 95% of the quality that is quite possible for half price. Remember the last superspeeds were sold for 1/2 price list at around 2,800 per each.

If Jan prices his lenses under 2000 there should be a good market.
I guess like RED the first wides will be something like 25mm 32mm, 50mm, 85mm. Second round probably 12mm,16mm,135mm & 180mm
If all 8 lenses were priced at $16,000, then there is a possibility of selling 500-1000 sets IMO

Best,

Stephen

[Guidofilippi]

If Jan prices his lenses under 2000 there should be a good market.
I guess like RED the first wides will be something like 25mm 32mm, 50mm, 85mm. Second round probably 12mm,16mm,135mm & 180mm
If all 8 lenses were priced at $16,000, then there is a possibility of selling 500-1000 sets IMO

Stephen

Mmmmm... tooooooooo optimistic...
Guido

[Matthew Rogers]

Only wider lenses or Zooms are cheaper to make them Digi Only like the Agnux.

Why are wider lenses cheaper to make? It seems like wide lenses (<20mm) are harder to make-IE get a better T-stop, fix distortion, etc. I would also think that zooms would be much harder to make since they have more elements and to keep them from breathing.


I guess they wont be quite so well corrected, slightly simpler focus scales, 95% of the quality that is quite possible for half price. Remember the last superspeeds were sold for 1/2 price list at around 2,800 per each.

What exactly do you mean by so well corrected? You mean exhibit more CA, on the wide end be more "bowed", etc? I'm confused about the superspeeds. Are you saying that because they "cleared" them out, obviously it doesn't cost them that much to make, and therefore can make cheaper lenses if sold in greater quantity?


If Jan prices his lenses under 2000 there should be a good market.
I guess like RED the first wides will be something like 25mm 32mm, 50mm, 85mm. Second round probably 12mm,16mm,135mm & 180mm
If all 8 lenses were priced at $16,000, then there is a possibility of selling 500-1000 sets IMO

I'll be shocked if they are under $2,000 USD or even Euros a piece. I would be VERY happy if a set of 5 (18, 25, 35, 50, & 85) was $15,000-$20,000. If they did a set for $25,000 that had a 16, 25, 35, 50, 85, 135, and 180, it would be amazing! I think we'd see those fly off the shelves if the optics were solid and the mechanics were 80% of the Zeiss/Cooke lenses.

Matthew

[Mitch Gross]

Know what prime is easy to make starting out? A 300mm T2.8.

[Evin Grant]

Zeiss ZF already exceed 80% of the quality of cine lens, the cost just explodes getting the last 5-10%

Stephen

I disagree with this completely. The Zf lenses are adequate optically but not mechanically when used in a cinema application. It's the barrel and long focus throw with precision mechanics and QC that makes up the difference in cost.

[Stephen Williams]

I disagree with this completely. The Zf lenses are adequate optically but not mechanically when used in a cinema application. It's the barrel and long focus throw with precision mechanics and QC that makes up the difference in cost.

Evin,

Whilst 80% of the quality is fairlly useless for motion picture use, I think 80% is about correct. Zeiss Standards don't have a very long throw either but people seem to like them. (i don't).

Stephen

[albert rudnicki]

Has Lagunn posted any info on his upcoming lenses on other forum, if yes,could anyone point me to it.

Thanks

[Cüneyt Kaya]

i did shoot with them 6 hours yesterday.
i will order

[James T Mather]

i did shoot with them 6 hours yesterday.
i will order

You shot with the Red Lenses yesterday?

[Matthew Rogers]

You shot with the Red Lenses yesterday?

Considering his info says he's in Berlin and that's where Laguun is also, I'm guessing he means these lenses and not the RED lenses.

It would be really nice to see a picture of them just to see their form.

Matthew

[James T Mather]

Ah sorry - I got confused as to the thread - too many tabs open. thx.

ps - how do they look wide open?

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Considering his info says he's in Berlin and that's where Laguun is also, I'm guessing he means these lenses and not the RED lenses.

It would be really nice to see a picture of them just to see their form.

Matthew

asfaik today or tomorow he will announce everything.
people with questions can PM me and i can share my experience.

[Cüneyt Kaya]

Ah sorry - I got confused as to the thread - too many tabs open. thx.

ps - how do they look wide open?

better as i have expected...much much better.

[Roberto B]

asfaik today or tomorow he will announce everything.
people with questions can PM me and i can share my experience.is the price list in dollars?.. :)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

At further risk of accusations, unnecessary whining, etc.. in regards to censorship, I have done a massive purging of this thread.

This thread is now open again. Please keep the discussion on-topic.

[Martin Ludwig]

asfaik today or tomorow he will announce everything.

still waiting....

[Cüneyt Kaya]

still waiting....

still banned martin :)

[Martin Ludwig]

still waiting....
I think he will stayed banned - Kaya - I am sure you have enough ideas how to get the info posted. You can post it as well for him, or just post it on reduser.de, there he should not be banned - :ranting2:

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I think he will stayed banned - Kaya - I am sure you have enough ideas how to get the info posted. You can post it as well for him, or just post it on reduser.de, there he should not be banned - :ranting2:

ha...i see he is not banned anymore

[Frank Mirbach]

Well, then let´s see something, Jan !! :)

[Stephen Williams]

ha...i see he is not banned anymore

Welcome back Jan.

[Roberto Lequeux]

So are we getting some info today?

[Matt Gottshalk]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27624

[Roberto Lequeux]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27624

Thanks!