Colour grade DLP ?

[Appleton]

Since I need to preplan; what about using a DLP/SXRD, to color grade, check focus, etc... - specifically one of these :

Sony SXRD's
http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=1003338&navigationPath=n32050n32190
http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=1002217&navigationPath=n32050n32190

The only difference I can see is the response time and the lamps. The 50 is 2.5ms while the 100 is 5 ms. And the 50 is 200W, the 100 400W. I am leaning towards the 100 (previewed them both) but if i can get away with the 50 I'd do it.

Leaning towards multipurposing, and hoping this might suffice instead of an HD reference grade monitor.

And suggestions on a DLP/SXRD

screen
receiver
best room config/ for editing and grading

would be appreciated. btw the barko2K or is8 is way out of the price bracket.

Thanks.

[Evin Grant]

Sony's SXRD projectors are probably a better bet. 15000:1 contrast 2K capable.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sony-VPL-VW100.htm

[Stuart English]

Sony doesn't sell DLP based projectors - they are all LCD or SXRD which is still an LCD-like technology. None of these projectors are bad choices, but all the LCD's (including SXRD) suffer from elevated black levels. My personal choice would be one of the new Pansonic 1080p home projectors coming out this Summer - I have one of the 720p versions at home and its quite stellar.

[Appleton]

Sony's SXRD projectors are probably a better bet. 15000:1 contrast 2K capable.
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sony-VPL-VW100.htmSorry, duped the same url. (edited).

Yup, Evin, that's the other one I was talking about -> the 50 or the 100 is the choice.

I'm wondering if I could get away with just the 50 (they're both 15000:1, 1080p). ? The prob. is I don't have the cash for everything and am trying to multipurpose as much as possible (without totally sacrificing quality).

Is it obtuse to think that I could color grade on the 50 or 100 ? Keep in mind if anything has the budget beyond 1080p; it will be going to a local post house.

Also, getting the right size room, ergonomics, cooling, colours is important.

I seriously wish i could just be done with it, and have a barn like Shamalayans. Editing, grading, sound design, theater, and coolness all within walking distance of your house out in the country.

Unfortunately, i'm trying to design a mini version on an indie budget...

these compromises are driving me bonkers.

Thanks.

[Appleton]

Sony doesn't sell DLP based projectors - they are all LCD or SXRD which is still an LCD-like technology. None of these projectors are bad choices, but all the LCD's (including SXRD) suffer from elevated black levels. My personal choice would be one of the new Pansonic 1080p home projectors coming out this Summer - I have one of the 720p versions at home and its quite stellar. Out of curiousity, why? Does the Panasonic have better levels ? i was planning on buying in a month or two, but i'll wait if it's advisable...

have you ever tried grading footage on your 720p projector, Stuart ? and what screen did you buy for the 720p ?
Thanks.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I agree with Evin, look a the new model SXRD sets. Sony has pretty well abandoned DLP in favor of their SXRD tech. However, don't think that says anything negative about DLP... There are some really nice DLP sets out there. The Samsung HLS series are pretty good, some models are better than others within that series. The 71" HLS-7178W is probably the best DLP on the market right now - it's amazing and far superior to the 70" somethings from Mitsubishi and others.

[Appleton]

I agree with Evin, look a the new model SXRD sets. Thanks Jeff. The SXRD stuff I saw was pretty impressive. I'm not really a tech person, but previewing true 1080p on a large screen is a must in our workflow.

I guess either it's not that great an idea (colour grading on a SXRD projector) or no ones tried it here ?

Maybe i should just set aside that money for a good colorist and some suite time at Du-art. But, what do I watch Brad Pitts newest movie on... ?

[Alister Robbie]

btw the barko2K or is8 is way out of the price bracket.

Thanks.

Bugger. I was going to suggest the Barco DP100. We had one set up in the Cinema at my old work with a Lustre. Very very tidy (although the Lustre was a bit crap). They were using it for grading a lot of their feature work that was to end up back on 35mm. Using the DP100 with Lustre we were able to apply both the LUTs for the projector, as well as for the intended film stock, so the colourists could grade seeing what it would look like on the final film record.

Edit : so if they are out of your price range, what is your budget?

[Appleton]

Edit : so if they are out of your price range, what is your budget?Well, it's basically the same circus - whatever we can get away with. there's a total budget (don't really want to reveal that) but the most for a preview/grading monitor would be around $10-15K (maybe more if it's an absolute necessity)
... this would be a lot simpler if it didn't have to be multipurpose.

it's a bit of a game, moving budget items around to try and keep within budget but still spend prudently.

where to allocate funds ? i'm sure i'm not the only one.

[Stuart English]

Not that it matters too much, but I don't recall that Sony ever offered a DLP product. The reason the Panasonic 720p projector got such good reviews when it was launched were - no visible barn door effects, very low black level due to a dynamic iris (Sony now also has this) but they also spent a lot of time working with Hollywood colorists, so the color was very accurate.

If they now have 1080p resolution and under $5k price, its a very good deal.

My "screen" is $ 50 worth of grey paint and some ceiling molding to make the frame mounted directly to the wall; saved over $600 there...

[donatello b]

you can read reviews of affordable 1080p digital projectors
including panasonic, sony

http://www.projectorcentral.com/1080p_shootout.htm

or here you'll have to look for the 1080p reviews by model
http://www.projectorreviews.com/

[Appleton]

Lol, Stuart; i'm part Scots so the paint on the wall sounds "bonny"...

the place i previewed the projectors said i'd need a $3K screen. forget the brand name. "stu-art"? is that a brand name ? i think that was it. someone named a screen stuart. kinda funny. (hey, tip your waitress)

ok. plan B. i'm going to find some 1080p material and take it in to Panasonic and Sony projector retailers and make a decision (may wait till the Panny comes out). it's probably a stupid thing to do, but i'll color grade on one of 'em.

for my next trick i'm going to turn a construction tripod into a thing o' O'Connor beauty. kiddin'.

thanks for the links, Donatello.

[Hans von Sonntag]

Some experiences I made last year with color-grading and projection.

I've got a Sony VPL 100 1080P projector. Yes, the HD-experience on a true
1080p projector is stunning and great to have. The Sony VPL 100 has a very "filmic" look with an unbelievable 1-15000 ratio due to a tricked out automatic iris-system. 35mm scans look better than in any conventional cinema round the corner.

The downside: The Sony VPL 100 is not very bright, actually it is pretty dark compared to normal off the shelf office-projectors.

But: If your suite is painted in medium grey (black might be a bit depressive) and you bring down every thing illuminating (your screens as well) to a low level you'll be fine. Together with a good sound system you will be amazed.

For color-correcting bare in mind that blacks on any projection will not be really black (the screen is white). This is system inharent. You need a vectorscope and/or a conventional CRT to prevent you from over-crushing the blacks.

I tested SpeedGrade with an calibrated EIZO 24 monitor (contrast-wise close to a CRT) and the Sony VPL 100 on a real-life project and liked the setup very much.

Hans

[Appleton]

Thanks, Hans, much appreciated.

i suppose it would be prudent to wait until NAB to see what FCP integration comes up with and/or Scratch.

that's the thing is it's all interelated.

i'd stick with a CRT or maybe an ecinema solution, if i didn't need to 'creatively preview'. both for myself and potential clients. our business model is very new.

Maybe 300 other people want to purchase the VPL100 ? i'm sure Sony wouldn't mind making a deal. kiddin' again. it's late here.

Good advice by all.

cheers.

[Martin Drew]

Yup the lamp is the big difference.

The VPL 100 uses a Xenon lamp and the 50 uses a UHP Mercury lamp. The Xenon lamp produces light closer to 6500K and allows for greater colour accuracy. Of course that doesn't mean the 50 won't be good enough, just that the 100 is better.

M

[Rob Lohman]

I read the new Panasonic includes special "hollywood" modes for color accuracy.

However, in all cases you will need to properly calibrate the projector and signal being fed into it.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Thanks Jeff. The SXRD stuff I saw was pretty impressive. I'm not really a tech person, but previewing true 1080p on a large screen is a must in our workflow.

I guess either it's not that great an idea (colour grading on a SXRD projector) or no ones tried it here ?

Maybe i should just set aside that money for a good colorist and some suite time at Du-art. But, what do I watch Brad Pitts newest movie on... ?

The only 1080p projector I have experience with is the Sony Qualia SXRD "Ruby". It's very nice, but I don't know if it would be the ideal solution for color grading -- I think I would rather have a rear projection SXRD or DLP for that. I'll be using my 71" Samsung DLP along with a 13" SONY HD studio monitor. :) The Samsung is better than the Sony SXRD (IMO) and to me has a sharper picture with better color range. It impressed me right out of the box and I got great results just tweaking a few settings. After about a month, I had it ISF calibrated and the thing is just awesome for HD-DVD and BluRay viewing.

If you need a large screen, take a look at the SXRD sets as well as the DLP sets from Samsung and others. Personally I think Sony and Samsung have the best HDTV offerings for rear projection units right now. For plasma, Pioneer and Panasonic are the best, especially the Panasonic for color, but Pioneer has better processing and detail.

You might want to head on over to www.avsforum.com and check out the discussions there. Lots of good information on all sorts of displays and projectors and good comparisons.

[Joe Carney]

If you want a bonafide studio monitor JVC has a 40" one for around 6800 USD (msrp) with HD/SDI option card...
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101630&feature_id=01

Here is a JVC rptv they are claiming is accurate enough for post work....
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101554
It's only 44,995 USD.

These Home Theater rptv and front projectors has circutiy to enhance and correct the video, exactly what you don't want when color grading.

Joe C.

[Appleton]

Thanks, Jeff, Zeke.

i really need to have as large a preview screen as possible, pixel for pixel 1080p, while keeping it fairly light. SXRD seemed a good choice. I looked at the avsforums but couldn't find anything about trying to get a good guerilla colour grading with them. most were concerned with 'enhanced' processing...possibly the best solution is to colour grade on a small HD reference monitor (even if it's not 1080p) or eizo, combined preview with a Samsung/Panasonic/Sony projector (one step down from what I would be able to afford just alone).

maybe we're biting off more than we can chew, but that's when it's fun...

[casey warren]

I've had a great time using the Canon Realis SX50 projector's. I have used them to CC still images and after I figured out how to calibrate the projector, it worked great as a CCing tool for video too.

I thought the quality was also very good, great contrast and brightness. I just plugged it straight into my Mac and worked like magic.

I projected it onto a very large sheet of paper coated foam core that matched the Epson Lustre paper that I was printing on, worked great.

I actually think projectors are more in the future for home cinema rather than HD tv's. So far, i have never been inpressed with any image on any of the HD tv's out there. I mean its better than standard TV, but doesnt even compare to projector quality. Cant wait untill someone unveils a 4K flatscreen that can display highlights as well as projectors do.

[Stuart English]

Changing focus a bit (no pun intended) if you are looking for a display to color grade against you could also consider the new Panasonic 1080p plasma panels. Its about $6-7K retail c/w HD-SDI inputs but Panny plasmas were the first - and still may be the only ones - with a true black and 10 bit grey scale.

Model TH-50PF9UK

Peter Putman (HDTV Expert) review -

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/Panasonic_TH-50PF9UK.html

[Stuart English]

And here's one for the Mitsubishi HC5000 LCD Home Theater Projector

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/hc5000.html

[Appleton]

I actually think projectors are more in the future for home cinema rather than HD tv's. So far, i have never been inpressed with any image on any of the HD tv's out there. I mean its better than standard TV, but doesnt even compare to projector quality. Cant wait untill someone unveils a 4K flatscreen that can display highlights as well as projectors do.At one time, projectors were overpriced, IMO. Now with the new tech, and LCD/Plasma getting up into shooting distance of them (price wise), I think they're decently priced.

Thanks for all the links guys. i wanted to get an overview of opinion and you guys didn't disappoint. great responses ...:)

Stuart, one of the reasons i was thinking of staying awaty from plasma is that there'll be keycode or time code in the video i'm editing/colour grading and i was thinking of possible burn thru. would that be a consideration ?

a question that occured to me from you guyz' great responses is if there was a way to maybe put a sort of a template of data reference on a blu ray/hd player in true 1080p and hook it up through the HDMI connection to get a better judge of how the projector/plasma screen might judge colour rep, levels for editing.

all the info. i read is about how projectors, plasma tweaks the image to get the best picture by processing. obviously , when editing and colour grading you want the truest representation of your images as you can get without the messing about of enhancement.

is my idea of a blu ray disc with images, possible color luts, color charts etc... feasible ? or is it wasted effort ? (i know the projector has to be isf calibrated, but it may be a good initial judge).

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Stuart, one of the reasons i was thinking of staying awaty from plasma is that there'll be keycode or time code in the video i'm editing/colour grading and i was thinking of possible burn thru. would that be a consideration ?

First of all, no display technology is immune to image burn of some type. But overall, most technologies these days are really good and there's not much to worry about. The latest plasma models do suffer from burn-in on the same level as a standard CRT display, and in some cases actually tolerate it better. However, due to the way plasma tech works, you can have residual images, or persistant images. These are not burn-in, but ghosting of bright images that may remain on the display for some time. Plasma and CRT use the same type of phosphors in their screens to transmit visible light. A CRT display uses an electron beam from the CRT to excite and illuminate the phosphors. Plasma displays use small pockets filled with a gas micture located behind the phosphors. The gas is electrically charged and thus causes it to emit UV radiation, which in turn excites and illuminates the phosphors. Residual or persistent images occur in plasma displays when these pockets of gas become over-charged and retain a latent charge or static charge. They hold it like a capacitor or battery and it slowly bleeds off over time as current is run through the gas. Various types of insulation and means of dissipating the residual charges are continuously revised and updated along with newer and better gas mixtures to try and combat this. Many plasmas also have extra programs that the user can activate to help remove some of these residual images. Some people recommend running plasma displays on about 50% brightness with very consistent, full-screen imagery with no stationary images for 50 to 100 hours to break it in. Personally, I haven't seen any evidence of that helping anything.

Once again, there's huge threads and tons of information on this aspect of plasma displays over at AVSforum.com. And it is definitely something to consider when buying a plasma... Some of the residual images can last months, literally.


is my idea of a blu ray disc with images, possible color luts, color charts etc... feasible ? or is it wasted effort ? (i know the projector has to be isf calibrated, but it may be a good initial judge).

I think with the internal processing of these displays, you will have a great opportunity to fine-tune your video for final output and delivery on a home theatre system. A good display will make it easy to test and see if your content is good for delivery on a consumer format. But for initial color grading work, you would probably be better served with a studio monitor or other such display like those JVC ones mentioned here that are actually for coloring / editing purposes. ...Not as big of a demand for them and hence why they cost several times more than the consumer model which uses the same screen size and often many/most of the same internal components.

If you plant to deliver for broadcast or film, a good studio display is probably going to be required for best results. If you'll be consistantly delivering on DVD and eventually HD-DVD and/or BluRay, then a top-notch consumer system will get you very close as you can test the final output of the delivered format. ...Or at least that's how I see it. But like I've said before, in my setup, the 30" LCD monitors give me the resolution to work with, the 13" studio monitor gives me the color and the ability to playback at 72Hz so I can check motion of a 24p source and make sure its right and the ISF calibrated DLP will let me proof my final product knowing it will look good on a full 1080p display that's really as good as it gets for consumer/prosumer home theatre setups at this time. The only thing I see changing by the time I finally get my RED (probably late this year, maybe), I will be able to start thinking about a more powerful workstation(s) and possibly 4K capable monitors to connect to it -- I don't see the studio monitor, color issues or DLP/Projector considerations changing much. Probably a few new models this summer with more bells/whistles. 72Hz and 120Hz refresh rates would be ideal (coming on future models) if you work with 24p.

So all things to consider...

[Rob Lohman]

Such discs already exist. The home theater crowd already has some impressive calibration software & hardware they use. If you want to go that way I would suggest you check the various projector forums on http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/

[Appleton]

But like I've said before, in my setup, the 30" LCD monitors give me the resolution to work with, the 13" studio monitor gives me the color and the ability to playback at 72Hz so I can check motion of a 24p source and make sure its right and the ISF calibrated DLP will let me proof my final product knowing it will look good on a full 1080p display that's really as good as it gets for consumer/prosumer home theatre setups at this time. The only thing I see changing by the time I finally get my RED (probably late this year, maybe), I will be able to start thinking about a more powerful workstation(s) and possibly 4K capable monitors to connect to it -- I don't see the studio monitor, color issues or DLP/Projector considerations changing much. Probably a few new models this summer with more bells/whistles. 72Hz and 120Hz refresh rates would be ideal (coming on future models) if you work with 24p.

i guess the majority opinion is that colour grading on these isn't too great an idea right about now.

Out of all the options mentioned, i think the small HD monitor along w/ a cheaper SXRD/Samsung/Panasonic models is the best budget-> results choice...depending on when the cam delivers (i'm in the early hundreds) i'll buy then. assuming there is the 72Hz,120Hz refresh rates Jeff mentions.

How about this monitor for colour grading :
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=1983&A=details&Q=&sku=326928&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

... and then use the Sony VPL50 or one of the other cheaper models -Panasonic/Samsung projectors listed for preview, check focus etc...?

BTW, Rob, i'm not techie enough to get into what I mean exactly by those blu ray discs, but i meant optimizing them for getting the best rep image per DCI specs. But, considering i may have to go with a cheaper projector to afford a small HD ref monitor too, that may be as important. Specifically, if it does get picked up for projection (not exhibition per se) then it'll go thru a whole different set of parameters.

plenty of possibilities. just trying to do the camera, and my own work (humble, ain't i ?) justice.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Those 72Hz / 120Hz refresh rates I mentioned were talked about last year and shown this year at CES. We'll see a few LCD panels @ 120Hz and plasma @ 72Hz by the end of this year... Probably not before you get your RED One. And it will just be one or two models with limited availability. So don't get too excited just yet.