Red aerials

[Joe Shemesh]

G'day
Am hoping someone here can advise me on hooking up RED to helicopter power (28v).
I've been shooting aerials for the past few years with my PanaPro50, using 28v power and linear voltage reducer unit (24v to 13.8v) outputting power to Panasonic via lead fitted with 4pin canon plug.
Am now wondering if it's safe to have a lemo cable made up to go from this VR08 reducer unit to power RED?

Any advise would be much appreciated!!!
best
joe

[David Birdy]

Hey Joe,

I'm not sure about the power, but you should definitley use a Solid state drive to aviod dropped frames...

Dave

[Joe Shemesh]

Thanks Dave, have had the RED ssd on order for 18 months with this in mind
best
joe

[Joe Shemesh]

would be great to hear from one of you guys regarding this question

Am hoping someone here can advise me on hooking up RED to helicopter power (28v).
I've been shooting aerials for the past few years with my PanaPro50, using 28v power and linear voltage reducer unit (24v to 13.8v) outputting power to Panasonic via lead fitted with 4pin canon plug.
Am now wondering if it's safe to have a lemo cable made up to go from this VR08 reducer unit to power RED?

Any advise would be much appreciated!!!
best
joe

[Clayton Burkhart]

BE CAREFUL! You may encounter ROLLING SHUTTER problems (as with all CMOS captors). Your Pana Pro 50 is a CCD camera. RED is CMOS. Remember, you are moving up and down as well as forward and backwards, so the top to bottom action of the captor can create "waves" in your footage. You probably know all this, but just in case check this out:

http://www.ssontech.com/content/skool.mov



Good luck to ya.

[Joe Shemesh]

BE CAREFUL! You may encounter ROLLING SHUTTER problems (as with all CMOS captors). Remember, you are moving up and down as well as forward and backwards, so the top to bottom action of the captor can create "waves" in your footage. You probably know all this, but just in case check this out:

http://www.ssontech.com/content/skool.mov

Good luck to ya.

Wow Clayton, did you shoot that clip? I've done some HH heli shooting with red and didn't experience anything like this.

Anyone else on here had these sort of issues?

best
joe

[Clayton Burkhart]

NO I didn't shoot that clip, but I have seen this stuff before. It gets worse, you can also lose your focus this way, making the image sharp and unsharp in waves in the same frame as well! Basically, all helicopter shots should be made with CCD units because the wrong relationship of camera settings with heli speeds can create this....you just don't know. I have seen this in still photography as well.

[Matthew Rogers]

NO I didn't shoot that clip, but I have seen this stuff before. It gets worse, you can also lose your focus this way, making the image sharp and unsharp in waves in the same frame as well! Basically, all helicopter shots should be made with CCD units because the wrong relationship of camera settings with heli speeds can create this....you just don't know. I have seen this in still photography as well.

Well, as someone who's shot with the RED in a helicopter before, I had no problems with the image. We even overloaded the mount and the only issue we had was that the camera would only "settle" for a few seconds at a time which made it slightly more hard to track with the car we were shooting. So your statement that helicopter shots should only be shot with CCD units, I believe, is uninformed.

BTW, what camera was that clip shot on?

Matthew

[Joshua Brown]

I've seen heli shots from a 5D that looked absolutely great. And that camera has been known to actually have a noticeable rolling shutter problem. The quality of that footage overall was sorta bad so I'm guessing it's a little old and/or shot on a sub-par/consumer camera.

-Josh

[Clayton Burkhart]

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it won't work. I am saying that there is a RISK that you will have rolling shutter issues. As a helicopter shoot can be quite an investment, it's wise to know that there is a chance and it's important to be informed. Even though the Red One has a fast shutter it is still possible with a very quick pan. I know that if I had something important to do I wouldn't take that risk. That question came up for me recently about following a motorcycle from a helicopter. Interestingly Joshua, I also have a friend who just recently shot with a 5D from a helicopter and had these very issues !


For those who think I am uninformed about the RED, just remember Jim Arthur's test:

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/SHUTTER_STUDIES/RED_rolling_shutter_test.mov

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/SHUTTER_STUDIES/RED_ROLLING_SHUTTER_results.jpg

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/SHUTTER_STUDIES/RED_ROLLING_SHUTTER_TILT_results.jpg

Now, just imagine combining the results of the two jpegs shown above and you have the possibility (albeit a very small one, and I know you will all show me how technically naive I am) of having a nasty surprise on a helicopter ride. I would not be willing to take that risk on an expensive shoot, would you?

In any case, I wish you all the best of luck.

[Joe Shemesh]

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it won't work. I am saying that there is a RISK that you will have rolling shutter issues. As a helicopter shoot can be quite an investment, it's wise to know that there is a chance and it's important to be informed. Even though the Red One has a fast shutter it is still possible with a very quick pan. I know that if I had something important to do I wouldn't take that risk. That question came up for me recently about following a motorcycle from a helicopter. Interestingly Joshua, I also have a friend who just recently shot with a 5D from a helicopter and had these very issues !


For those who think I am uninformed about the RED, just remember Jim Arthur's test:

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/SHUTTER_STUDIES/RED_rolling_shutter_test.mov

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/SHUTTER_STUDIES/RED_ROLLING_SHUTTER_results.jpg

http://ftp.datausa.com/imageshoppe/outgoing/SHUTTER_STUDIES/RED_ROLLING_SHUTTER_TILT_results.jpg

Now, just imagine combining the results of the two jpegs shown above and you have the possibility (albeit a very small one, and I know you will all show me how technically naive I am) of having a nasty surprise on a helicopter ride. I would not be willing to take that risk on an expensive shoot, would you?

In any case, I wish you all the best of luck.

all input welcomed Clayton
best
joe

[Michael Brennan]

Joe,
your current supply should be ok with the RED, but you'll need to change the canon to the RED power input plug.

However my view is that batteries are still a safer bet in aircraft, even high quality power filters leave an element of doubt that noise in the image is caused by aircraft.
Problem is that RED is a little more time consuming to QA and trouble shoot after a test flight in this regard than say a Cineflex V14.
At least have a few batteries to use to troubleshoot any issues.

In respect to the rolling shutter I have yet to hear of a RED aerial shoot adversly affected in Europe or Oz. Having operated RED in gyrostabilsed ball as well as mass balanced rig, no motion artifacts have jumped out at me, but new kit deserves much inspection and respect so I'm still lookin'

Would like to see original pics from the wavey cmos shot posted in this thread, given the large number of dodgy hand held aerial shoots using consumer cams it is surprising the motion artifact is so rare.

Mike Brennan

[Robert Berger]

Joe,
your current supply should be ok with the RED, but you'll need to change the canon to the RED power input plug.

However my view is that batteries are still a safer bet in aircraft, even high quality power filters leave an element of doubt that noise in the image is caused by aircraft.
Problem is that RED is a little more time consuming to QA and trouble shoot after a test flight in this regard than say a Cineflex V14.
At least have a few batteries to use to troubleshoot any issues.

In respect to the rolling shutter I have yet to hear of a RED aerial shoot adversly affected in Europe or Oz. Having operated RED in gyrostabilsed ball as well as mass balanced rig, no motion artifacts have jumped out at me, but new kit deserves much inspection and respect so I'm still lookin'

Would like to see original pics from the wavey cmos shot posted in this thread, given the large number of dodgy hand held aerial shoots using consumer cams it is surprising the motion artifact is so rare.

Mike Brennan

maybe 5D with lens stabilizer on??

You don't have to be afraid with the red one to get these "nice" effects!
Cameraman i know myself, would have told me of this effect with there Red One.
cmos not good in a helicopter is a myth!

Robert

Robert

[Mike Smith]

Well, as someone who's shot with the RED in a helicopter before, I had no problems with the image. We even overloaded the mount and the only issue we had was that the camera would only "settle" for a few seconds at a time which made it slightly more hard to track with the car we were shooting. So your statement that helicopter shots should only be shot with CCD units, I believe, is uninformed.

BTW, what camera was that clip shot on?

Matthew

It was shot on a 1lb HV20 at 24p. The only way you can get wavy action like that is if you are changing the angle of the lens w.r.t. the image being recorded at that same speed with a high speed shutter (ie. narrow rolling shutter). With a 1lb camera, that's easy if you have no form of physical stabilization. With RED, you'd give yourself a hernia trying to shake it that fast, even disregarding the RED's much superior shutter. The RED is perfectly fine in a helicopter. Even the HV20 can do a whole lot better than this provided you isolate it from physical vibrations.

Mike.

[DarnellRandolph]

I don't know how people are -not- having rolling shutter issues in helicopters on CMOS cameras. I own a RED and rent another camera whenever I need to perform a vehicular mount. The rolling shutter is very much a problem in all but the most pristine conditions. The warbling never gets as severe as that skool.mov video, no, but it's there and noticeable.

[Dave Blackham]

What combination of frame rates, ISO and shutter speed is being used for the rolling shutter,skew issues to be seen ?

[DarnellRandolph]

24 and 48fps, 320 ISO generally. I've experimented with shutter speeds ranging from 1/48 up to 1/250, but varying shutter speed only seems to attenuate motion blur, not the rolling shutter effects. Since the ISO is just metadata, I never bothered experimenting with it to alleviate the rolling shutter.

A rocky ride isn't a problem, a micro-bumpy or vibratey one is. If I have a hostess tray car mount going and a 50 or 85mm close up on the opposite passenger, all it takes is driving over a cement seam or road reflector to induce a wobble.

Sometimes it can be minimized sufficiently by just omitting the most heinous frame in post and duplicating an adjacent - a targeted framedrop. But if it's in a chassis that might vibrate or on an imperfect road, I don't put the RED up to the challenge.

[Dave Blackham]

A rocky ride isn't a problem, a micro-bumpy or vibratey one is. If I have a hostess tray car mount going and a 50 or 85mm close up on the opposite passenger, all it takes is driving over a cement seam or road reflector to induce a wobble.


This is very interesting as this is what we are finding in another application vibration sets off all sorts of skew and wobble problems. We are at 40fps, 3K, RC28.

We dont have conclusive results yet but Ill mail here when we do.

Does using RC28 or RC36 make any difference ?

[heliflyer]

We have just completed a large screen 3D project and I can safely say we have seen no rolling shutter artifacts in the aerial footage, even when projected on a large screen.
2 x reds, 2 x SSD on a Nettmann Stab-C Compact stabilized head.

Also, take a look at the films shot for Jaguar to see some of our aerials shot using a Wescam/Red unit. In fact nearly all of the footage on these short films was acquired on Red.

http://www.jaguar.co.uk/uk/en/latest/jaguar_films/technical_films.html

[Pawel Achtel]

would be great to hear from one of you guys regarding this question

Am hoping someone here can advise me on hooking up RED to helicopter power (28v).
I've been shooting aerials for the past few years with my PanaPro50, using 28v power and linear voltage reducer unit (24v to 13.8v) outputting power to Panasonic via lead fitted with 4pin canon plug.
Am now wondering if it's safe to have a lemo cable made up to go from this VR08 reducer unit to power RED?

Any advise would be much appreciated!!!
best
joe

Howdy,

It should work just fine as long as your converter can sustain 100W that Red One will draw. You need a Red Power to 4-Pin XLR cable. I powered my Red One this way with no problems. Contact me if you can't get a cable like this :beer: