Inclusion of LCD screen? or anyhting for that matter?

[Ben Ponce]

Forgive me if this has been talked about in any other post or thread but I did my searches and came up with nothing. I was wondering why Red didn't just include either a smaller viewfinder or an LCD screen on-camera rather than a la carte. I'm a DVX user so I'm just used to opening the box and being ready to shoot in 10 minutes. Obviously Red has their own target audience but I intend to be part of it and it just seems to me that more DV or HDV users would migrate if they had done this (that and maybe a small bit of internal drive space:w00t: ). I know most people who are getting the first batch of Reds are going to hate the people bordering on buying one because of price but it really is an issue. I believe that Red could easily blow away Sony, JVC, Canon and, oh yes Panasonic (indie king in my opinion) in the indie film market if they would've just included a few more bells and whistles in the body. The marketing stategy is working so far but only for early adopters. The cool looking camera campaign can only work for so long before people decide they will rent the Red instead of actually buying it. That or people will just decide to stay in the category of HVX or XLH1's along with their 35mm adaptors. To end my long post I just think Red would have 3-4 times as many deposits as they have currently if they just would've given us a camera that could atleast give us SOME use out-of-box. Food for thought.:detective2:

[dalemccready]

I don't think that's reasonable in my opinion.

I think if you compare it to other similar devices you'd be looking at enormously more cost...and still no viewfinder.

I think given the low cost of the camera it's a bit much to ask for more to be thrown in. I understand where you are coming from but having just the camera body and a finder/LCD won't make this a useful camera system.

So where would you draw the line? You can't shoot without looking at a finder, you can't shoot without a lens, you need a drive to record to, need a battery to power the camera, need a charger to charge the battery etc... should all this be thrown in too?

[Darwin]

RED is not in competition with the prosumer camera's you listed. It's ment to be modular. This means freedom of choice to use Red stuff with your camera, or not. Try that kind of flxbility with other manufactures.

[Ben Ponce]

Good point dale. Throw it all in!:tongue: I'm thinking in terms of Indie filmmaking so I never think it hurts to ask for more to be thrown in. Worst that can happen is that they don't. C'mon, you can't tell me you wouldn't love it if they did include a battery and LCD screen, right? Most people will have some lenses, even if they are 35mm stills so I don't think that is something that is necessary. No doubt Red is changing things with this camera but I just think they could've started a new, massive revolution by including a few more options. A world where anybody with a creative mind, drive and 18k could make movies that look as good as 35 mm film! That's an exciting thought! Oh well, maybe that's what they're aiming for with the pocket camera.

[dalemccready]

...of course I hate to burst your bubble and remind you that if you have some Nikon lenses you're going to have to fork out $500 for the lens mount adaptor...

Whoops there goes the budget! And still no recording medium...oh well at least you can look at the pictures right? You can tell people later how the shoot looked...

Oh...wait...thats right. No viewfinder. ;)

(I also like how you seem to want not just a revolution, but a more revolutionary revolution. When will you be satisfied? When Jim drives over to your house with a shooting crew and offers to cater the lunches too? New tastier RED Meat)

[PaulClements]

benjiedude, think of the RedOne as the step up from prosumer to professional gear. Imagine the cost of that step up previously costing you hundreds of thousands and now, with RedOne, imagine it costing around 25 thousand to be shooting something of equal or perhaps even better quality than the pictures you see in the cinema. Whilst it would be nice to get more bang for your buck you have to be realistic about these things.

You can use all sorts of third party accessories, for instance for monitoring you could try using blackmagics HD-SDI to DVI convertor and use a standard computer monitor straight out of the camera, you could use a $50 nikon lens with the adaptor, cheap batteries from china, use just one reddrive and record at 2k to increase it's capacity. All in all these accessories ammount to about 2k ontop of the camera, it would work but you'd be limiting yourself in my humble opinion. At some point in your life, if you are serious about making movies or tv and want to own your own high end gear you'll have to take a punt on more expensive stuff. Red represents the lowest punt by a long shot.

[James T Mather]

Yep - too much is never enough

[vanguy]

It's all how you look at it. Even the HVX200 doesn't come with media. If you want to record in HD, you need to buy (expensive) P2 cards or a hard drive.

Or, compare to Sony's XDCam HD (PDWF350) camera, similarly loaded:

Red with viewfinder and basic rail pack: $21,700
PDWF350: $24,499

And the PDWF350 doesn't do 4K, and records in an MPEG compressed, downscaled 1080x1440 anamorphic mode.

Or price out a DSLR. Usually, it's just the back. No batteries, no media, usually no lens. That's all extra.

[esmilis]

from my point of view, it is a good thing that red doesn't throw in extras like lcd or viewfinder. There definately will be some people, who will not need that extra stuff, and there will be another discussion about why they need to pay for things that they don't need. It's an endless loop. In current case you can purchase exactly what you need. It's perfect

[Ben Ponce]

edit.

[Vincent Rice]

benjiedude: Its a professional camera. Most of the people here are not 'rich' they are professionals or aspiring professionals. That means they are willing to raise the investment required to buy the camera because they expect it, when combined with their talent, determination and/or experience, to repay them directly in cash or career prospects.

The camera costs one tenth of what its replacing which makes your comments ridiculous; not withstanding the fact that professional equipment is about flexibility, not 'box-sets'. Check out the Arri website and some of their prices to understand RED's true value.

[Ben Ponce]

Man. I can't win here. To all you "professionals or aspiring professionals" thanks for welcoming me to the club. I'm being sarcastic of course because I think a lot of you forgot where you came from when you experienced a little success in your filmmaking. Everybody has to transition and I understand that I'm making the move from a prosumer level to professional grade when I decide to "go Red". Let's try and loose some of that "I'm a professional working director and you're not worthy of posting on this site" attitude people. We're all trying to be creative artists in the end.

[Joel Kaye]

How did all of you convince your wives

Ah - there's your problem.

RED costs $25K. Just think of it that way. I think an HV20 and a 35mm adapter is the next logical choice after RED. (I owned an HVX200, HD-100 and have shot the XLH1 and have tried 3 different 35mm adapters and had all those cameras rigged with one).

People are going to be making cool stuff with the HV20 and an adapter. You could buy that camera and put $20K into production value instead of buying RED. It's a little scary really.

[Ben Ponce]

Finally some understanding. joelnet, can I get a hug! LOL. In the end, I've gotta go Red. Thanks for the HV20 suggestion though.

[Poi Boy]

I'm sure the hv20 and an adapter will produce great results but I can't help but laugh when I picture the rig in my mind, too funny.
Aloha
-A

[JVB]

RED can't give away the Farm

[Ben Ponce]

Nice picture Poi Boy. I bet you'll get some really nice Red footage out there in Hawaii. Been there twice (Kuai and Oahu) and going early July to Maui. Beautiful, simply beautiful there. What island is Kailua on?

[Poi Boy]

Welcome benjiedude, My Kailua is on Oahu, over the mountains on the other side of the island from Waikiki.
Aloha
-A

[Ben Ponce]

Shoot! I was hoping I could come check out your Red if it came before July. LOL. Red #86...I bet you're excited.
Aloha brudda.

[Tonaci Tran]

Your statement is similar to saying, well if Porsches were cheaper more people like us Honda drivers would buy them. (actually an exaggeration..but illustrating a point)

Unfortunately, there is a certain threshold limit as to how cheap you can sell something. I think Jim really priced it at a point low enough to move units as well as high enough to recover the costs of R&D and production. On top of this, I doubt Jim needs to make it any cheaper to sell units considering that currently only two other 4k digital cameras exist. The Dalsa and Phantom which both cost many times more than RED. (Dalsa is rental only, but judging from rental prices- it aint cheap) Not only do they cost alot, they don't have the same flexibility or workflows. Put simply, and I know I sound like a RED fanboy when saying this, there is simply no competition.

" I just think they could've started a new, massive revolution by including a few more options. "
I think it is already a massive revolution without the options thrown in. I doubt that not including an lcd or battery for out of the box shooting is going to prevent many people from buying it.

[Tonaci Tran]

Speaking of the "indie market" ..and Hv20s, there is the professional red pocket camera that might be up your alley if you want a cheaper camera.

[Ben Ponce]

That's it. I'm a believer in Red. As a matter of fact, Jim, can you up the price? You know all of us would pay it. Even the aspiring professionals. On Red 2 could you also make the power button an a la carte add on? I would love that! If you could also charge us extra for the black spray paint can that we would need to paint it ourselves, that would be great!

Just kidding guys. You've all made your point and I'm plotting how to go red. I think I've made my initiation into this forum. Please go bust some other newbie balls now.

[Ben Ponce]

The pocket camera might be a good option for me. All depends on the specs. But oh, the Red One footage...it's oh so inspiring, oh so beautiful. We'll see. I'm probably gonna wait for the first 6months to a years run of Reds to see ifthere are any bugs before i committ to my divorce..um I mean red purchase.:innocent:

[Tonaci Tran]

Judging from what I have read, if you placed an order now, you probably wouldn't get yours until next year. Just a thought, if you can swing for a deposit it may be a good idea just to hold your place in line.

[Ben Ponce]

But won't the 1 year wait for Red one then make it obsolete by the time it's actually available? I mean by that point JVC will probably get their hands on that new 33 megapixel sensor that poi Boy was talking about in the other thread. Technology....love it, hate it.

[Poi Boy]

I don't think it will be obsolete at all; there will always be new sensors and one of the great things about red design is that it is poised to take advantage of new developments. My advice is get in line .
Aloha
-A

[Keith Nealy]

Let's try and loose some of that "I'm a professional working director and you're not worthy of posting on this site" attitude people.

Actually, Benjie I think everyone has been very nice and forthcoming with good advice. You're just stuck in your perspective and don't really want to hear what people are saying.

RED is about flexibility and options. Don't look at the $17,500 price as the price of a RED camera... it's not. It's more like $25-$35,000.

You're asking RED to come down to your level... while Jim created a camera SYSTEM to allow you to come up to a professional level.

And, if your grossing $100k you are in the same boat as many of the people on this forum who made a commitent and now have the better part of a year to figure out how they are going to pay for it.

Join the club. But if you do, understand what you are getting in for. With RED, you are going to be given an opportunity to leapfrog years in a typical career path and overcome huge budget restrictions that keep most indies out of the big leagues.

See RED for what it is... not what you want it to be.

But on the other hand, take the time read these posts and you will see that we all have had some influence in helping design some new features.

Just a short time ago I asked if RED could mimic the "Frame Accumulation Mode" that XDCAM-HD cameras can do. It started a very long educational discussion with top pros on this forum to Stuart and Rob of RED and the result was that at some point in the development of the system code I think we will have a more sophisticated, more capabilie frame accumulation/intervalometer system which will add more creative tools to our quiver.

Where in the world of video and digital cinema can you do that?


We're all trying to be creative artists in the end

At my company we have a saying that "Creativity Works." and that means whenever you come up against challenges - where the big pros usually just throw more money at a problem - we have to be more creative, to finding a less expensive solution that creates results. You'd be amazed how well it works.

Your challenge now, like so many of us, is how to make the leap to get this paid for and how do we generate the kind of business that will support it.

And as for the members of this forum...

You won't find a more helpful, knowledgeable, group of people that are willing to teach - anywhere.

Trust in the force, young Jedi, and you will reach your goal. You are not alone in this quest. :matrix:

Aloha,

Keith

[Jay A. Kelley]

There comes a point where you reach a threshold. But you bring up an very interesting concept.. I wonder what will happen to the market when RED comes out? The Silicon Graphics camera is the only one out there that is built and marketed similar to the RED.

At this point the SI 2k is the winner by default.. I.E. They are out and selling.. RED is not. Now then, should RED make it's entrance to the marketplace as planned, and 90% or more of it works as planned, then SI 2k will have some serious issues as it would seem that RED is positioned to enjoy a wider acceptance by the mainstream Hollywood machine.

RED will be outdated someday, but it's looking like it could be a 10+year machine. It's largely upgradable, and has already jumped a few generations of camera. So there will be a while before 4K is "standard"

Jay

12 days left fellas

[Tonaci Tran]

"I mean by that point JVC will probably get their hands on that new 33 megapixel sensor "

Jvc to this day is still stuck in 720p land. It would be quite a leap for them to hit 4k. Ditto for Panasonic who just recently has a true 1080p (no upscaling) camera price at 60,000 (without variable frame rates). Add to the fact that SONY, a powerhouse giant, predicted 4k cameras within the next couple years. But when it does come, how much will it cost? Have you seen the Sony f23? Its a 1080p 2/3 chip camera that costs over 150,000 and guess what.. its not even out yet. It would be amusing if RED comes out before Sony's f-23.


RED is ahead..way ahead. In the future when Jim checks out a new sensor worthy of RED, it will be offered it as an upgrade. Lets make it clear that the sensor is upgradeable. No other camera currently offers this and likely won't because they all want you to continually upgrade. Look at how many sony hd hdv cameras have been released within the last two years?

[dalemccready]

...hey and Benjiedude, you make more than me. My camera is hopefully going to pay for itself to answer your question.

[Ben Ponce]

Good stuff guys. Now I'm learning. I didn't know the sensor was upgradeable. That's awesome! Red is truly turning out to be THE camera to have for EVERYBODY. Keith, I have gotten some good advice but there's always those that had to throw some criticism my way as well. Just part of posting though and I get it.
Aloha.

[Ben Ponce]

You see Dale, that's all I wanted to hear! That some of you guys are jumping out there and taking a risk to hopefully reap the rewards. Makes me feel better about doing it myself. I have great respect for you now Dale. Thanks.

P.S. Are you married and if so, How'd the wife handle it? LOL

[Craig Schober]

But won't the 1 year wait for Red one then make it obsolete by the time it's actually available? I mean by that point JVC will probably get their hands on that new 33 megapixel sensor that poi Boy was talking about in the other thread. Technology....love it, hate it.

i know you're joking about technology but don't you see how if red did what you actually want and included a bunch of accessories built into the camera, they would be making their own camera obsolete by the time you get it. early adopters like me don't have much choice in accessories and sensors but one or two years from now you can start with same red body and possibly add a super high res lcd or viewfinder, a smaller battery but with more capacity, improved motorized lens systems, cheaper, better flash options and of course an improved sensor capable of more resolution and greater dynamic range. none of this is a guarantee but this is all possible because of modularity. without modularity you get my $4500 dvx that i just sold on ebay for $1600.

[Ben Ponce]

I'm with you Wigby. By starting this thread I'm getting lots of "don't you understand.." questions but yes, I do get it. It's a shame that you sold your DVX, I still think it has some life left but everybody has their priorities. I'll be keeping mine when I get the Red. To me, the DVX was just as revolutionary as the Red for it's time. Red Cinema just thought a little more ahead for future proofing.

[Ben Ponce]

One thought. Isn't it funny how this site is RedUSER.net but none of us here actually have even used one yet. At this point, it's this theoretical, untouchable dream of a device that is sparking emotions all over the place. Gotta mean it'll be good. If not all of you who get the first batch better tell us as soon as the bugs start showing.

[Craig Schober]

I'm with you Wigby. By starting this thread I'm getting lots of "don't you understand.." questions but yes, I do get it. It's a shame that you sold your DVX, I still think it has some life left but everybody has their priorities. I'll be keeping mine when I get the Red. To me, the DVX was just as revolutionary as the Red for it's time. Red Cinema just thought a little more ahead for future proofing.

i sold my dvx but still have my hvx. i was planning on keeping that but unless it cuts well into red footage (obviously 1080p and less), i doubt i'll be keeping the hvx either. i'll wait on that one to see. but i do agree with you that the dvx was at least a mini revolution in dv acquisition. i say mini because it really only offered something to mini-dv dps looking to do 24fps with xlr inputs but it was still tethered to panasonic's camcorder model. the hvx200 does 1080p and uses p2 but i don't think those promises have not played out to be very revolutionary.

i may sound like those "rich" red soon-to-be owners but i don't think we're that different. i have a mortgage, live-in girlfriend and a full-time job. i also have a decent savings that i plan to blow on red hardware and production of my feature film. i've waited years to shoot something digitally in 35mm equivalent. part of the waiting was to build up my funds and the other part was to let digital cinema catch up with 35mm. now it appears red has delivered both of these at my feet. i have no more excuses to wait thanks to jim and the red team's vision and innovation.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

This post was extremely painful to read, in my opinion, I mean I cringed just with every sentence. I have an XL-2 at my place, and my friend has an XH-A1, and they are both decent enough cameras for amateur use, but come on dude, this is NOT a freakin' prosumer camera, this isn't made for filming your brother's wedding or your son's high school graduation or something. This is a FULLY professional camera, and what you're saying just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

The price is $17,500 for the body. What about this don't you understand? If they included extra stuff, it would cost extra money, DUH. It's much better to let you decide how you want to put your package together, and then buy the parts you need. Otherwise, I guess they could give you a $35,000 package with basically what I ordered, minus the prime lens set and let you buy that later, but what's the point? May as well let you figure out what you want.

It just makes me cringe when people think of this camera as like some great new alternative to an XL-2 or HDV camera. I mean seriously, what the heck? This is an alternative to a 35mm film camera, or more closely maybe to a Sony F900 or Sony F950, but it isn't trying to compete with low-end cameras you can get off the shelf for $3,000.

[Brook Willard]

While I do agree on some of your points, Jonathan... no need to bite his head off. :) The camera may not be everything to everyone, but it's something different to all of us.

[Ben Ponce]

Whoa Johnnie boy. You should've read the whole thread before coming at me like that. The great thing about Red is that it will make people like myself who have pursued their filmmaking dreams on a budget step it up a notch. So if you don't like a thread then don't read it. I happened to get a lot of good opinions from other people's answers unlike your own. I will buy a Red if it proves to be what they promise but it's not as simple as 1,2,3 for all of us. If you cringe about people's thoughts about filmamking then you should stay off the forums because there's a lot of differences in opinion. In the end I'm buying the Red so don't be so insulted DUDE.

[Ben Ponce]

Yo Johnnie boy...looks like you got taste of your own medicine on the other thread (60fps) by Vinnie. Thanks Brook for playing ref!

[Brook Willard]

Goes both ways, man. I'm not taking sides, I just like happiness. :)

[donatello b]

"I believe that Red could easily blow away Sony, JVC, Canon and, oh yes Panasonic (indie king in my opinion) in the indie film market " ..."I'm thinking in terms of Indie filmmaking "

define Indie filmmaking ?

most of the persons that i know that own hand size camcorders ( with or without 35mm adaptors ) produce what i call no budget projects - i guess in a way they are Indie filmmakers but yet when i hear "Indies" i don't think of no budgets.
all the Indie movies that i saw at my local theaters or on DVD in May i don't believe any were shot on a panasonic, sony , jvc, or canon .. infact i think they were all shot on film ... the only part that may have been shot on video was the "making of " section on the DVD ...
i tend to call individuals "filmmakers" ( no indie )
now this "Indie thing " might just be a generation gap on my part ... as i go back to the late 70's in LA and back then everybody knew who were the major studio's and who were the independents ...
so today are we saying anybody that has intent to create a media project is a Indie ?

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I have no idea what you are talking about -- in the other thread, MOST people agreed with what I said, which is that 24fps isn't the only frame rate that will ever be professional. That's pretty obvious.

But when you come in here talking about how the RED should include an LCD screen because your local crappy consumer camera does, that's really ridiculous. That's like saying the RED should have all kinds of cool in-camera effects like a $600 JVC camera because it has to be able to compete with them. Everyone knows that the more professional the camera, the FEWER in-camera effects because professionals would never be so stupid as to do effects while taking a shot when they know they can do all of that in post MUCH more efficiently with software designed to do exactly that (After Effects, Final Cut, Motion, etc.).

I wasn't trying to knock you for wishing that we could get even more for cheaper, because heck who wouldn't like all of the RED package for $17,500 instead of $35,000 when all is said and done? But what a lot of people don't understand is the value of money. They seem to just base everything off their own limited perspective. It was like when I went to film school with all these guys who think $1,000 is "a lot of money." A thousand dollars is NOTHING. It is barely pocket cash, and completely insignificant in every respect. $100,000 is a fair amount of money. But it's all relative, and to look at a movie and say, "WOW, that movie cost $100 million!!!" Uhh, ok, so what? If it made $450 million, it didn't cost very much money at all now did it. Same goes with the RED. People were telling me, "You have a $35,000 CAMERA on order *gasp* -- that better be an amazing camera, you could buy a CAR with that!" Yeah, a car, the most freakin' worthless investment on god's green earth. You drive it off the lot and the thing basically loses half of its value. Gee, I could buy a CAR, instead of a camera that I could make a living off just using on various shoots. Umm I think I'll take the camera. And what is lost on these people is that $35,000 for a professional camera is extremely inexpensive, so regardless of their perspective of the world, i.e. I'm poor so anything more than $20 is a lot of money, they need to be able to take into account that other, similar cameras cost $100,000 or more, like the Sony F900, which fully loaded is going to set you back about $200,000.

Money is all relative. One person thinks $300,000 for a house is a lot of money, I think $300,000 doesn't even buy you a decent condo downtown and therefore isn't very much money at all for a house. But the point is, you look at the RED from the perspective of consumer cameras, or "prosumer" cameras (I detest that word with a passion, it's just what a professional writer hates -- some idiots in the tech industry thinking they're being cute by combining two real words and trying to get something else), and of course it seems ridiculously expensive. But that's the wrong perspective. Look at it from the perspective of professional level equipment.

When I first heard of the RED and began to read everything I could about it, my reaction was, "My god! It's a miracle! It's so cheap I can actually afford it!" Because before I heard of this camera, and knowing I wanted to work in digital and not with film (I've felt for years that there's no bigger pain in the butt than working with that retched archaic technology), I thought I wouldn't be able to afford any really professional equipment, I'd be able to get something like an XDCam maybe but I'd never be able to get something really awesome that they use for real movies like the Sony F950 or the Genesis or Viper or something along those lines. So I was like, well, too bad, I guess I can make do with the XDCam :(

Then I heard of the RED and thought, "Oh yeah, now the playing field will be level, I can afford the world's greatest camera but it is not the world's most expensive camera," and that made me very pleased.

So no hard feelings man, but I just thought you were approaching this matter like, "Gee, the RED is overpriced, they should make it cheaper for everyone who can't afford it," when I think you should be looking at it like, "Wow, that's remarkably affordable considering how amazing it is!" Granted, I'm not trying to tell you that $35,000 is pocket change, because I realize that for most people they don't just have $35,000 cash laying around. I'm only saying that *relatively speaking* that is a great buy.

[dalemccready]

sorry Brook what was that you were saying? :)

...oh yeah happiness, yeah...sweet.

[Ben Ponce]

Alright. I'm making a truce with everybody on this forum here and now. What a controversial first thread I started, I guess anyway. I appreciate the response Jon. This one was far more respectful than your first. Just like a lot of people who came to this thread jumped on me and thought "oh my god! doesn't he understand what a deal it is" There were those who tried to see my point, whether it be the minority of everyone's opinion or not. Despite my minor gripes about not getting an LCD or battery pack or whatever included, nobody actually saw that I said I WILL STILL GET THE RED apparently. I think this camera is a miracle if it does in fact deliver on all the hype cuz, at this point, that's exactly what it is until units are actually delivered. I for one am praying it delivers because I, like so many of you, dream about having a digital camera that can match 35mm film or even best it AND have it be affordable. That's the catch though, what is affordable? It's all a matter of opinion really. I don't know what the avg reduser member age is but I'm turning 29 next month and I assume a lot of you are around that. The difference is that I for one am married, own and operate my own business, have purchased my third and largest home ever, have two young boys, a wife and believe it or not, other responsibilities. Here's where all of you younger, fresh outta film school guys jump on me about how if I should risk it all if I REALLY want to work in film or movies. Well, I agree with you to some extent but we all have lives people and my point was that even though I actually make more money from my own business or "day job" than some of you, I still want a bargain here and there for my true passion. If you guys went in to the Hummer dealership would you accept sticker price right away just because you could afford it? If you say yes to that then you really are filthy rich and wouldn't even bother buying a Red because you could get better or film cost is insignificant to you. Hell some guys on this forum have asked for things they want on the Red and the red team has listened so it can possibly be added in the future so I thought I'd throw a question out there but had no idea most would respond the way they did. A lot of people say they're professionals on this forum and more power to them for making money with whatever they do in media or filmmaking but I ask one question. What is everyone's true reason for buying the Red? My opinion is that half want it to help create their dreams and the other half wants to buy it simply to profit off of the first half that can't afford to buy it by renting it to them. Either way Red wins and they're gonna get my money. I'm sold but only after the first reviews come out. I'm not going to be an early adopter on this one, at the most just put down a deposit. That's with or without a damn LCD, OK?

[overlandfilms]

RED is doing it just right. It's more than affordable and the user configures according to their perceived needs.

The RED accessory menu is simple, full and elegant. Like Jim and his team based their model on In-N-Out's (http://www.in-n-out.com/menu.asp) or something. Double-double, fries and a shake or Coke. What else do you need. Want more? Go over to Clairmont and knock yourself out.

Mmmm... In-N-Out...

[donatello b]

" I still want a bargain here and there for my true passion"

the RED at 17,500 , and all the accessories are a bargain ... look at the RED price list then go out to other manufacturer's and compare prices = BARGAIN

paying list price for a auto = the price of the auto comes down to supply vs. demand .. any car in short supply could be higher then the sticker price - many dealers sold the Prius for $5000 over the sticker price because they had waiting list ... i know our local dealer had 75 persons on a list when we were looking .. today in CA a 1- 2 year old prius with car pool lane stickers is priced higher then a new Prius ( because CA is not issuing the stickers anymore)

[Brook Willard]

sorry Brook what was that you were saying? :)

...oh yeah happiness, yeah...sweet.

Yeah... it's pretty nifty stuff. :)

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

My reasons for wanting the RED are different but complementary. Primarily I want the camera because I want a highly professional tool that guarantees if I get the rest of the elements of production right, i.e. great lighting, a good story, good acting, etc. etc., then my work will not be amateur looking because of the camera technology (i.e. everything done right but shot on miniDV is kind of sad in the sense that you got all of the hardest stuff right, but the simple thing, just camera quality, was lousy). That is the first appeal to me personally because I am the kind of person who wants to make sure I have the right tools provided I can afford them, which in this case I can. I also realize that all of the best tools in the world can't turn a terrible story into a great film, though.

That being said, the second reason is simple. Owning a RED guarantees I don't have to be a grip on set if I'm trying to make some money and stay in this business. It gives me a tool I know for a fact people will pay money to rent, and if I can rent myself as camera operator, get to know the RED intimately and how it works, what items it needs, how to transfer footage, etc., I can easily rent my services both shooting for various projects and even doing assistant editing work like logging and capturing the footage using a top-of-the-line Mac Pro. That is valuable to plenty of people who would rather not pay $55,000 for a camera setup and a prime lens set plus another $20,000 for a fully loaded Mac Pro (we had this quoted from ProMax, it includes a lot of additional enhancements that you don't get just from ordering through Apple.com). It would be easier for them to pay me $500 per day or whatever to provide this equipment for them, be on set as part of the crew, etc. It immediately assures I don't have to work at the bottom, which is not somewhere I want to be.

I appreciate there are a lot of people who started at the very bottom and worked their way up, and I think that's great, but I don't think you learn very much at all from being a grip for years and years, sometimes 5+ years. I think you learn by doing, by actually getting a story together, figuring out how you're going to shoot it, and going and doing it. At least, that's how I learn, and that's the path I will take to where I want. But along the way, I can't very well just spend money and make nothing, that is rough even for me. So if I was able to help people out on their productions with my RED setup and my other equipment, that gives me a way to profit in the industry and focus on my own projects, too.

[chuck colburn]

God I miss IN-N-OUT burgers.
Oh yeah, and Flookys hot dogs.
Really the only two reasons to live in L.A.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Everyone raves about IN-N-Out, I guess I just don't get it. I've had their burgers and eaten there like 4-5 times and it's just average to me, really no better than Jack in the Box or McDonalds or any other place. Certainly not even close to as good as Burgerville in the Pacific Northwest, which is just much better quality.

Maybe there's something I'm missing... evidently.

[Joel Kaye]

Maybe there's something I'm missing... evidently.

No, I don't think so. Well - their shakes are good. Seems to me the best burgers are found in sports bars and pubs. Maybe it's the beer. Oh - and I wish they came with an LCD screen. (just trying to stay on topic)

[dalemccready]

I'm a big fan of Burger Wisconsin here in New Zealand. Very good. Kumara fries too.

... I'm wondering if there should be a limit to the number of sentences that can be posted on this forum with out a return/break.

I've been operating all day and some of these threads are like 40 lines long completely unbroken. It's a wall of effusiveness.

My eyes just can't get in there sorry.