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Dwight Rhodes
03-08-2009, 09:47 PM
I recently shot a commercial with 2 RED Cameras (This is not my first experience with the Red One). 'A' camera was #1041 and I believe 'B' camera was #1088 or #1080, I'll confirm later. I fed -20dBfs tone to all three devices. My Sound Devices 744T and the two Red Cameras. Both Cameras were build 17. Both camera were 0dB not +10dB.
My first observation is that the meters on the Red camera bear little or no relationship with reality. I lined up both cameras to the appropriate points, and listened to the signals at the camera with my headphones. Both Cameras displayed the same meter levels and movement. The levels appeared to be in the expected range. However what was recorded on each system was completely different. The SD 744T chugged along happily, recording everything with reliable fidelity. 'A' camera recorded the signal roughly 30-35dB lower than expected. 'B' camera recorded everything roughly 10-15dB below expected level. We also had problems locking the camera to the ambient lockit boxes, but eventually got that working. The XLR to Mini-XLR Cables were supplied by Clairmont, so I don't know if they are from Red or Clairmont, but I was not impressed with the quality of the supplied cables. They did not include any padding. I'm having my own set of cables made up.
We confirmed the actual levels in FCP. It's the first time I've to use an external device to meter any audio-recording capable camera. This is not terribly workable - some would call it unworkable.
The point of this missive is not to diss the Red, I love the picture quality and the company ethos, I expect them to take over the industry.
I do however feel that something is deeply flawed on the audio side of things. The problem is that the sound features on the Red are simply not reliable or ready for prime time. Luckily, I have always treated these cameras like soundless film cameras, and used both Ambient lockit boxes and timecode slates to ensure that quality sound can be sync'ed from my SD744T at a latter date. I am suspicious that the Red One will never be a reliable audio device, no matter what build.
It is my hope that more attention is paid to audio on the Scarlet/Epic Systems. Here's my wish list.
- 2 channels of sound on standard XLR's (I don't need more, the multitrack is on the the sound cart)
- 2 real, easily accessable level controls on the camera body. (Level controls should not be burried in a layered menu, nor should there be only two options)
- Meters that display what is actually happening!
The next generation is an opportunity to repair this weak link in the chain. I usually get the mix right, so there is no need for my multi-track. This is a huge cost saving, and one more argument in favor of the the Red. As it stands now, to ensure reliable quality sound, it is necessary to budget for post syncing.
I hope my feedback is of use to your engineers. I know that this has been a mostly negative message, but I am impressed with what you have achieved visually, now I hape you can bring the same quality and detail to the sound side of things.

Dominic Jones
03-09-2009, 05:45 AM
I'm afraid I can only agree with Dwight here - I'm a DP not a sound recordist, but have also just finished shooting the first dual camera shoot I've ever done with Sync sound to both cams - and again, it was hellish getting the levels to match (we didn't!).

Every serious sound recordist I have ever worked on the system has thrown his hands up in despair at the audio side of the camera, which is a crying shame as the visual side is just fantastic - every director and producer I've worked with (and every DP, AC, etc who has seen my work on it) has been literally blown away with the image quality, as am I. I now tell people to regard the camera as 35mm type system, record dual audio and post-sync - but in all reality, this really shouldn't need to be the case with a modern digital camera.

Since I'm not a sound recordist, I won't tell you what you need to do to fix the situation, as I've no idea - but the situation needs resolving, and I am in agreement with Dwight that if it proves to be an impossibility for the R1, then serious effort should be expended to ensure that the Epic and Scarlet lines do not suffer from this problem...

Also in line with Dwight, I offer my apologies for the negative post - believe me, it's meant with love and care for your products and your work, after all there's never any forward movement without honest feedback...

All the best,
Dom.

Matthew Verkler
03-09-2009, 05:53 PM
Did either or both of the cameras have the new audio board upgrade? My Red One (#508) has the new audio board and I have been happy with the improvement.

I agree with you that being able to record usable sound on camera is a big advantage for a lot of productions. I also agree that having real level controls on the body would be great, although you can use the EVF wheel to do a pretty good substitute.

I like having four channels and don't mind the mini-XLR's at all, especially now that they don't need to have diodes and so forth to make up for deficiencies in the sound board. We have other accessories for the camera, so having mini-XLR's is no big deal to me.

Matthew Verkler

Brian Ferguson
03-09-2009, 08:58 PM
I fed -20dBfs tone to all three devices. My Sound Devices 744T and the two Red Cameras. Both Cameras were build 17. Both camera were 0dB not +10dB.
My first observation is that the meters on the Red camera bear little or no relationship with reality. I lined up both cameras to the appropriate points, and listened to the signals at the camera with my headphones.

When you say "I lined up both cameras" what does that mean ? How was that done and where was the tone set?
I am perplexed as I have done more audio tests on this camera than most and at line level I have had very consistent results with the new board. I would like to help track this down.