Is anyone currently using Adobe Premire or After Effects for their RED workflow? [Archive]

Radim Schreiber

03-12-2009, 12:55 PM

Hi,
I am curious about that.

I've downloaded trial of CS4 on my system and it is not really working as I would wish. I have two computers. On one, REDcine is not working, but CS4 & RED plug-in works fine. On the other system REDcine is working fine, but RED drivers for CS4 didn't get loaded. Not a very good start.

Secondarily what I've read on the forums that there is no way to do RAW adjustments in CS4. One has to do color/exposure adjustments of RAW file in REDcine and than export it to CS4. This adds another step to a work flow and adds another file with huge file size.

Is there a better way of doing it? Is anyone actually using Adobe workflow and found it satisfactory system?

Thanks
Radim

Radim Schreiber

03-13-2009, 11:06 AM

Seems like no one is really using it. I had that kind of intuition.

Mark Crabtree

03-13-2009, 01:01 PM

At our studio we have 3 eight core PC systems using CS3 and CineForm Prospect 4K and AJA Zena cards. CS4 drivers for AJA and CineForm are coming soon. We can play 4K right on the timeline, apply color correction in real time and import into AE with no render. CineForm is a RAW high quality format but unlike RedCode it debayers in real time. So you can have all the advantages of RAW and still be able to edit. We also have one Final Cut system also with Prospect 4K. Working with Red requires converting the R3D's to CineForm. Since we have both Mac's and PC's we often review the Red proxies on our Mac and then convert all takes we like into CineForm Express files. Express files have a similar purpose as Red proxies, smaller and intended for offline, but Express files are color perfect so you can apply color corrections and when replace them with the 4K CineForm file the color correction and editing you did with the Express file applies to the 4K file. It would take me a long time to write about all the advantages of CineForm. IMHO it is the most sane method to create top quality with the Red camera.

Santiago Marti

03-13-2009, 01:20 PM

mmmmm i think a lot of people are using the plugin with great success, maybe that's why nobody replied! :biggrin: seriously, a lot of this topics were already discussed, so feel free to search and read all over the forum. your questions are not very well asked. you are not able to change metadata in .r3d but in after effects you can tweak almost anything in a 32 bit floating point precission. I use premiere and edit at 2k really smooth, then you can apply some filters like magic bullet, color finesse, colorista, etc...and then you can burn a dvd or bluray, don't know if that works for you, but it works for me!

Alex Carr

03-13-2009, 01:41 PM

David Wilson

03-13-2009, 01:45 PM

We're using four core PC systems and CS3 with the CineForm Prospect 4K plug-in. It all works astonishingly well.

Jay A. Kelley

03-13-2009, 04:48 PM

I use CS3 and Cineform... Smooth as glass, full rez, and no hiccups...

I could not be happier.. And now, with the abilty to sync EXTERNAL AUDIO with the click of a button... I am thrilled
Jay

Paul Leeming

03-14-2009, 08:09 AM

David Rasberry

03-14-2009, 08:42 AM

Thanks for the input on Cineform. I like that it can handle many different input formats in a single consistent work flow. I am thinking about using it with CS4 on a new workstation for Scarlet.
My wife is an artist and we need photoshop for her, so CS4 makes the most sense for us both.

Cüneyt Kaya

03-14-2009, 08:48 AM

here, works super

Ryota Kurata

03-14-2009, 08:56 AM

On the other system REDcine is working fine, but RED drivers for CS4 didn't get loaded.
Maybe, is this?
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23957

Hans von Sonntag

03-14-2009, 09:09 AM

I use CS3 and Cineform... Smooth as glass, full rez, and no hiccups...

I could not be happier.. And now, with the abilty to sync EXTERNAL AUDIO with the click of a button... I am thrilled
Jay

For anyone who is seaching for a smooth workflow and looking for highest fidelity with low datarates CineForm is the way to go, not only on the PC (CS3 and very soon CS4) but also on the Mac with FCP. I use both platforms and cannot be happier with CineForms cross-platform abilities. CineForm outperforms ProRes by miles and is very close to the fidelity which DPX are able to maintain, actuallly on par with HDCAM-SR.

Also CineForm's ReMaster (OSX) and HDLink (Windows) are great tools for "developing" R3Ds to 422 YUV or even RGB 444, fast and convenient. CineForm does also provide RGB 4444 with an additional alpha channel - great for VFX work.

I'm in no ways affiliated with CineForm, just a happy user.

Hans

BTW, PremierPro CS4 reads FCP XMLs...

Stefan Scherperel

03-14-2009, 11:00 AM

So I guess I have a slightly different take on this than most people. I think Cineform has provided an excellent workflow, but have had problems with passed purchases of cineform, so I decided not to go this route this time around. I have been using the CS4, premiere/ after effects workflow with great success. Be aware that like others have said the trial version with red support seems sketchy at best, but with the full version it has been nothing but rock solid with red footage.
I edit in 1K with premiere and then import my project into after effects and color correct the 4K files in a 32bit floating point project. You still have full access to all color correcting options without going through a RAW workflow.
Now I do think that if we had some meta data options as far as RAW CC go, that would greatly increase performance and ease of color grading, but so far I have not run into an instance in After effects where I could not get the same results in Red Cine. And the only time i have to render is at the end.

Radim Schreiber

03-18-2009, 02:45 PM

Seems like lots of people use and like CineForm. I am not sure how does it work with RAW. Mark Crabtree mentioned that Cineform gives you all capabilities of RAW files. What does that mean? I understand it that CineForm is not a RAW file. Cineform is a compressed file created from original RED Raw file. One has to choose ISO, CC, White balance and export to CineForm format. This means that any further adjustment to the file are on top of original exported adjustments, thus degrading quality of the original.
Do I understand it correctly?

Looking form that perspective, there is at this moment no way to work with RAW files and its primary adjustments in Adobe Software. One has to export footage from RedCine into a new format, such as DPX, CineForm, 32bit Tiff and do post work in Adobe software.

Thanks,
Radim

Hans von Sonntag

03-19-2009, 01:33 AM

CS 4.0.1 works very well. As I understand it the trial version of CS4 doesn't work because it is missing components needed. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm using Production Premium CS4 full version.

HTH

Paul

CS4 is not working as advertised.

VTS plugins don't get loaded in PP or SB, they do load in Audition 3 on the same system. You need Waves for serious audio work.

FCP XML import leads to buggy timlines that cause PP to crash many, many times. Obstacles (among others) are: Slug, audio fades, etc... With such limtations you can stick to EDL.

CS4 cannot read TC on sound files, makes syncing impossible (don't tell me to use a clapperboard..) Avid can do that since day one and FCP as well.

Sending audio off a video source to SB for cleaning/desnoising does not work.

Generally PP CS4 is very unstable. CS4's encoder is very unreliable - you may end up with a project that cannot be delivered because CS4 is not managing to render the timeline out. Workaround: use AE...

I bought CS4 for the upcoming Prospect4k. When this is out I give CS4 a new chance - by then they hopefully cleaned out those bugs. It's obvious that CS4 was pushed through the door too early - It's currently in a Beta state, not primetime ready to say the least.

Hans

Hans von Sonntag

03-19-2009, 03:45 AM

I understand it that CineForm is not a RAW file. Cineform is a compressed file created from original RED Raw file. One has to choose ISO, CC, White balance and export to CineForm format. This means that any further adjustment to the file are on top of original exported adjustments, thus degrading quality of the original.
Do I understand it correctly?

Thanks,
Radim

Radim,

fortunately you are misdlead regarding CineForm.

Short story: CineForm can be a meaningful substitute for DPX, et al.

Long story: CineForm is a alternative for all those who are looking for a high fidelity, low bandwith container codec (QT and AVI) which has dedicated postpro capabilities such as 444 RGB plus alpha channel (4444 RGB). The quality, though compressed, is on par with HDCAM SR - I did some difference keyer test my self and can approve this.

CineForm has many flavours - up to your needs:

1. Very low bandwith Express-files for offline (colourwise the same as the bigger derivates)

2. YUV 422

3. RGB 444

4. RGB 4444

5. RAW

CineForms decoder utilises the Red SDK in such a way that the user does not need to set the infamous settings from RA/RC but can conveniently drop the R3Ds into the decoding app. resulting in nice, all information maintaining files with a mild log curve. The best approach IMO in RED-land. No degrading at all.

Hans

Frank Mirbach

03-19-2009, 05:37 AM

Radim,

fortunately you are misdlead regarding CineForm.

Short story: CineForm can be a meaningful substitute for DPX, et al.

Long story: CineForm is a alternative for all those who are looking for a high fidelity, low bandwith container codec (QT and AVI) which has dedicated postpro capabilities such as 444 RGB plus alpha channel (4444 RGB). The quality, though compressed, is on par with HDCAM SR - I did some difference keyer test my self and can approve this.

CineForm has many flavours - up to your needs:

1. Very low bandwith Express-files for offline (colourwise the same as the bigger derivates)

2. YUV 422

3. RGB 444

4. RGB 4444

5. RAW

CineForms decoder utilises the Red SDK in such a way that the user does not need to set the infamous settings from RA/RC but can conveniently drop the R3Ds into the decoding app. resulting in nice, all information maintaining files with a mild log curve. The best approach IMO in RED-land. No degrading at all.

Hans
Hi Hans,

sounds great ! But how long does the decoding take from R3D into Cineform ? Does it work on a Mac ? And can you use the Cineform files with an AVID MC HD ? Would there be another transcode into .mxf necessary ?

Thanks for the help,

Frank

Hans von Sonntag

03-19-2009, 06:51 AM

Hi Hans,

sounds great ! But how long does the decoding take from R3D into Cineform ? Does it work on a Mac ? And can you use the Cineform files with an AVID MC HD ? Would there be another transcode into .mxf necessary ?

Thanks for the help,

Frank

Hi Frank,

CineForm decodes as fast as RedLine/RedRushes does.

You can perform a quarter debayer - assuming your shot 4K - and create 1K files which are great for rushes and even a good source to grade off because they have the exact same colour LUT as the full or half debayered counterparts have. Such 1K files are called Express files and render with approx 40 fps on a legacy MacPro8

The full debayered 1080p 444RGB files take approx. 6 fps.

With the new machines those bnechamarks are history.

AVID cannot read CineForm. You can use RedRushes to create Avid readable, fast-import files and conform later via EDL to CineForm in FCP (422 YUV only, RGB444 will be 8 bit in FCP) or full float 32 bit RGB444 in PremierPro CS3 with CineForm Prospect4K. CS4 is a mess currently...

CineForm files contain the REEL and TC of the R3D source.

Kind Regards to Aachen,

Hans

Antoine Baumann

03-20-2009, 12:01 AM

I'm looking for a script or plug-in that can apply a LUT to the Log R3D RAW file in After Effects then my lowbudget compositing workflow will be complete.

Otherwise I take 16 bit Tif into AE from Redcine. I just need twice the RAID than is needed for R3D

Not sure about after effects r3d color space and gamma management. Can't you set the 3rd to be in redspace and rec709 or such kind of things, or are you talking about other kind of lut? Anyway r3d raw are linear response to light not log.
If i understand you are doing compositing directly with the r3d files in ae? In my experience when doing compositing, you don't want your system to have to process anything but your compositing tree, no decompression and no debayering or stuff like that. Also if I understand correctly ae don't do a debayer when working (only on rendering), it does a pixel picking, and even if it might be a perfect representation of would be the image , and your edges are exactly like they will be after debayering, I think it introduce more factors, and might introduce issues that you will have to be tracked down. DPX 10bit log is for me perfect, but I would like to know how ae does with 3rd.

Thanks,
antoine.

BTW 16bit tiff are way more than two times the bandwith of r3d, more like 30 times.

Hans von Sonntag

03-20-2009, 01:12 AM

[QUOTE=laboprod;390550]
In my experience when doing compositing, you don't want your system to have to process anything but your compositing tree, no decompression and no debayering or stuff like that. Also if I understand correctly ae don't do a debayer when working (only on rendering), it does a pixel picking, and even if it might be a perfect representation of would be the image , and your edges are exactly like they will be after debayering, I think it introduce more factors, and might introduce issues that you will have to be tracked down. DPX 10bit log is for me perfect, but I would like to know how ae does with 3rd.

Thanks,
antoine./QUOTE]

Hi Antoine,

Recently I had a chat with two postproduction supervisors. Although it's a obvious move to implement Red's SDK in AE or Nuke we all were sure that the permant full debayering process that is needed will eat too much power. Additionally RedOne's footage can be debayered in many, many ways. Although choices are nice to have, for VFX work on multiple seats you want consistent footage that is exactly the same on each seat. Debayering to RGB before the footage is going to be manipulated is currenly the only way to make sure that everybody is working on identical footage.

Hans