New Lithium Battery Regulations

[Brent@RED]

Please note that as of January 1, 2009, lithium ion batteries over 100Wh are classified as Class 9 Dangerous Goods. RED BRICK batteries are 140Wh and therefore fall into this category. RED must comply with the applicable US domestic and international rules and regulations pertaining to documentation, shipping, and handling procedures. Since there is a Dangerous Goods surcharge for lithium ion batteries added onto the normal cost of shipping, RED will be adding a RED BRICK shipping and handling surcharge on orders including RED BRICKS.

In addition, some countries will not accept any Dangerous Goods shipments with FedEx as the carrier (see http://fedex.com/us/dangerousgoods/ for country list). For these countries, RED will have to engage the services of a different class of shipper (eg, a freight forwarder). If RED cannot use FedEx, please note that there will be increased shipping and handling charges as well as additional processing time to arrange for alternate shipping options.

Unless you have been certified to ship dangerous goods, you must work with a Dangerous Goods, Class 9-certified shipper to assist you with a shipment that includes RED BRICKS (or other regulated lithium ion batteries). Please note that applicable laws prohibit the shipping of batteries that are physically damaged. We urge you to look into the formal rules and regulations of shipping Class 9 Dangerous Goods prior to preparing your shipment. For more information on these regulations, please visit www.iata.org and www.dot.gov .

If you are going to be traveling with your RED BRICKS (or any lithium batteries), please see http://safetravel.dot.gov/larger_batt.html for rules and regulations. As of this post, you do have the ability to carry on BRICKS onto a commercial flight - with limitations, of course.

Again, RED takes these regulations very seriously. We ask you to NEVER ship a RED BRICK back to RED without complying with the same rules and regulations. RMA'ed BRICKS returned to RED without proper steps taken to ensure compliance will NOT be evaluated by RED and may not be returned to the customer. Safety is one of our very top priorities and we hope that you will work with us in this matter.

Thanks and let us know if you have any questions. We will answer what we can - but I highly recommend that you check out the links in this post for yourself to really see how this affects you.

As more information becomes available, I will post on this thread.

RED BOMB SQUAD
www.red.com/contact_us
949.206.7900

[Steve Sherrick]

So it seems according to the latest rules, you could conceivably have 1 of your Red Bricks hooked up to the battery charger and bring two additional bricks with you on the plane. Do I read that correctly.

Good to know about the shipping, thanks Brent!

[Brent@RED]

So it seems according to the latest rules, you could conceivably have 1 of your Red Bricks hooked up to the battery charger and bring two additional bricks with you on the plane. Do I read that correctly.

Good to know about the shipping, thanks Brent!

It would seem so, yes - as long as you don't exceed the maximum amount of total Lithium Ion allowed in the carry-on gear (which three BRICKS would not). We have heard of people traveling with a RED ONE with the BRICK attached to a CRADLE or QUICKPLATE which, in turn, was on the RED RAILS SYSTEM. And, then, two additional BRICKS.

BC

[jbeale]

Safety is one of our very top priorities...

It may not be of immediate use, but you might investigate a future version of the RED BRICK which uses lithium iron phosphate batteries. This is not a direct replacement for a traditional lithium-cobalt type because the cell voltage is only 3.2 V, but it is safe. You can overcharge, short, puncture, and even fire bullets through LiFePO4 cells without causing a fire. The same cannot be said of traditional lithium-ion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

Note: the technology is fairly new to commercial use and shipping regulations may not yet acknowledge its relative safety vs. lithium-cobalt, etc. type cells.

[Brent@RED]

Thanks, John. I will pass along to our dev team here.

BC

[Ryan E. Walters]

So it seems according to the latest rules, you could conceivably have 1 of your Red Bricks hooked up to the battery charger and bring two additional bricks with you on the plane. Do I read that correctly.

Good to know about the shipping, thanks Brent!

You can travel with three batteries. I just got back from a trip to Germany and Slovenia- I carried on three 190wh batteries no problem, and no one ever gave me a second glance. However, security was interested in the Red I was carrying, as they did extra testing on that at every airport I went to...

[stephan orlandic]

Please note that as of January 1, 2009, lithium ion batteries over 100Wh are classified as Class 9 Dangerous Goods. RED BRICK batteries are 140Wh and therefore fall into this category. RED must comply with the applicable US domestic and international rules and regulations pertaining to documentation, shipping, and handling procedures. Since there is a Dangerous Goods surcharge for lithium ion batteries added onto the normal cost of shipping, RED will be adding a RED BRICK shipping and handling surcharge on orders including RED BRICKS.

In addition, some countries will not accept any Dangerous Goods shipments with FedEx as the carrier (see http://fedex.com/us/dangerousgoods/ for country list). For these countries, RED will have to engage the services of a different class of shipper (eg, a freight forwarder). If RED cannot use FedEx, please note that there will be increased shipping and handling charges as well as additional processing time to arrange for alternate shipping options.

Unless you have been certified to ship dangerous goods, you must work with a Dangerous Goods, Class 9-certified shipper to assist you with a shipment that includes RED BRICKS (or other regulated lithium ion batteries). Please note that applicable laws prohibit the shipping of batteries that are physically damaged. We urge you to look into the formal rules and regulations of shipping Class 9 Dangerous Goods prior to preparing your shipment. For more information on these regulations, please visit www.iata.org and www.dot.gov .

If you are going to be traveling with your RED BRICKS (or any lithium batteries), please see http://safetravel.dot.gov/larger_batt.html for rules and regulations. As of this post, you do have the ability to carry on BRICKS onto a commercial flight - with limitations, of course.

Again, RED takes these regulations very seriously. We ask you to NEVER ship a RED BRICK back to RED without complying with the same rules and regulations. RMA'ed BRICKS returned to RED without proper steps taken to ensure compliance will NOT be evaluated by RED and may not be returned to the customer. Safety is one of our very top priorities and we hope that you will work with us in this matter.

Thanks and let us know if you have any questions. We will answer what we can - but I highly recommend that you check out the links in this post for yourself to really see how this affects you.

As more information becomes available, I will post on this thread.

RED BOMB SQUAD
www.red.com/contact_us
949.206.7900


A week ago FEDEX France, which is the Fedex center for shipping further to European countries, refused to ship the RED Bricks to Europe,
and they have sent back our BRICKS back to RED.

They were almost scared that it was an exploding device like a bomb
(could You believe that), and that it can't be flying on FEDEX plane in EUROPE.
However, it can go back to the USA, with the FEDEX plane.

Hypocrisy or stupidity ?

Best Regards

Stephan

[Guidofilippi]

Well Brent... if you sign as "Red Bomb Squad" it´s really coherent that the stuff gets a Danger Classification fron the government ... maybe if you change it to Red Technical Assistance or so?

[Guidofilippi]

Hypocrisy or stupidity ?

Both...
Guido

[Petr Dvorak]

yep RED BOMB SQUAD now delivers Class 9 Dangerous Goods :shiftyph34r:

[Leo Ticheli]

I understand the goal of reducing camera weight, but Lithium batteries are a poor choice for reasons all too obvious in this thread.

I consider myself a fan, but not a fan-boy, so I feel free to point out what I believe is a tactical error on Red's part. This camera is now widely accepted as an industry standard and as such it should certainly be completely qualified to operate with the industry standard batteries! If they can certify a lens mount, they can do the same with batteries.

Of course my Red does in fact work perfectly with the Anton Bauer 140s, but I'm certain that many, if not most, of us would love to see Red certify Anton Bauer, perhaps others, for use with Red. On the over-volt issue, Anton Bauer is working it now. A new regulated plate should insure compatibility.

This does not mean that Red need abandon their own batteries or continue development of the new, safer variety of Lithium cells. Certainly the hand-held and Steadicam guys need a lighter solution.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Jim McKinney]

I just flew to Philadelphia and back this past week (from Atlanta). I had one in my carry-on with the camera (not attached), and 4 batteries all connected to one idx charger in my checked baggage. No issues.

Did I just get lucky?

[Leo Ticheli]

Unfortunately, the TSA is one big, fat, pathetic joke that absolutely fails to enhance safety while providing inconvenience in abundance.

Yes, you got lucky. What if they had confiscated your batteries? What if they hauled you in for the third degree just short of water-boarding?

How would that have affected your production schedule?

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[Jim McKinney]

I hear water-boarding Lithium is VERY dangerous.

[paul engstrom]

I've got some SWIT lithium ions for just this reason. They separate into 2 halves--each of which is less than the 100 maximum.

I'm with Leo on the flying thing--anecdotal evidence that it worked a few times isn't worth the exception!! I've flown a lot throughout North America, in Europe, in Africa--and every now and then I've run into security that do know the fineprint and who do enforce the rules.

When I'm running lean I've got 2 RED bricks and 2 big SWIT batteries (which break down into 4 separate <100 components).

On a side note, I know of local high-end wood working shop that had a massive, hugely expensive fire caused by a cordless drill's lithium ion battery deciding to self ignite

p

[Ryan E. Walters]

and every now and then I've run into security that do know the fineprint and who do enforce the rules.

It is important to know what the rules are, so that if you run into someone else who knows them you are prepared. To help with this, I print out the latest rules / regs from the TSA and pack them with me. (I also highlight the specific details so that i can find them when needed.) You can check out safetravel.dot.gov for more info.

In short, you CANNOT check ANY LI Battery, and you CANNOT carry on any one battery that has more then 25 grams of lithium content. You are allowed one Large battery (Over 100wh) installed on a device, and two additional spare large batteries. Additionally you are allowed any number of small batteries (under 100wh.)

As the rules and regs continue to change, it is always best to go and check before you travel. And be sure to print them out and have them on hand with you when you do. It will make the process much easier should you run into trouble.

[Brent@RED]

Ryan, could not have said it better myself. :)

BC

[Nova Invicta]

Red have continually failed to supply conformity information for Europe to meet CE requirements so the batteries being turned back from France could have equally been for this reason. Red need to understand international as well as US regulations a common mistake of many US companies (there is a world outside of the USA)

[Peter Savage]

as I understand it Red Bricks are made in Europe - although understandably I suppose, the manufacturer would not sell to me directly but surely as far as Red delivery (and the environment etc) are concerned it would make sense that the batteries are not shipped back and forth across the atlantic for us Europeans which would also make it possible to avoid all these surcharges etc.

re Orlando's comment about Fedex France - what makes this even more incredible is that France is on FedEx's own list of countries where delivery IS permitted.
I can't help feeling this is simply another squeeze that is actually paranoia and something that can demand a higher fee for what has been happening for some time without any problems....

I'd also like to suggest that Red make Bricks less than the 100wh that can piggy back on each other - as standard - if it is difficult to develop an alternative battery system that will power the camera... perhaps the new batteries (for the brains) already solve this problem but there are over 5000 reds out there that need plenty of power.

If I travel alone to remote-ish places I am now fairly restricted to the number of hours I can shoot in a day unless I have a mains power source to re-charge - try that at the top of a mountain....

[Scott Brown]

We have opted to switch to AB Hytron batteries and avoid ALL travel restrictions. We mostly use the Hytron 140's and they are superb...only downside is their size and weight, plus side is they last a long time.

The future for Li Ion batteries is a bleak one...environmentally they are I'd urge you to look at alternatives.

Scott

[Peter Savage]

scott, thanks for your reply I note your comments and the ABs look good and are actually available everywhere. If only Red would certify them as Leo has already pointed out. Any comments from anyone at Red would be welcome on this point.

It's a little annoying to have to invest in yet another charging and battery system having only got my Red Bricks a few months ago and I was actually considering getting a few more... but now I think not.

[Brent@RED]

Red have continually failed to supply conformity information for Europe to meet CE requirements so the batteries being turned back from France could have equally been for this reason. Red need to understand international as well as US regulations a common mistake of many US companies (there is a world outside of the USA)

Thousands of cameras in the field globally - check

CE certified - check

Dangerous Goods certification through IATA - check

Understand there is a world outside of USA - Yes...check

Nova, feel free to PM me if you have any information you would like me to relay to our logistics team that you feel we are missing.

BC

[Matteo Passigato]

I travelled in Tenerife from Italy and they allow me 2 battery 140Wh in hand baggage only
thanks for posting
very useful

[miles]

Hello,

since on the list of countries not having delivered dangerous goods are even EU-member countries, wouldn't it be possible that your English office (well, the one that is doing the upgrades and services cameras) would be selling or at least shipping the batteries for you to some of the countries?

Anyway, for most European users buying RED goods from England would be much cheaper (regarding customs, shipping costs, delivery times etc.). Maybe RED could ship all products except cameras from the English office to European customers?

LP, m.

[michael zaletel]

Does this apply to checked baggage and carry-on baggage the same way regardless?

-shooter

[Stephen Williams]

They were almost scared that it was an exploding device like a bomb
(could You believe that), and that it can't be flying on FEDEX plane in EUROPE.

Hypocrisy or stupidity ?

Best Regards

Stephan

Hi Stephan,

They are classified the same as dynamite, just rather more dangerous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeWq6rWzChw&feature=related

Hardly stupid or hypo critic.

Stephen

[Fredrik Callinggard]

I understand the goal of reducing camera weight, but Lithium batteries are a poor choice for reasons all too obvious in this thread.

I consider myself a fan, but not a fan-boy, so I feel free to point out what I believe is a tactical error on Red's part. This camera is now widely accepted as an industry standard and as such it should certainly be completely qualified to operate with the industry standard batteries! If they can certify a lens mount, they can do the same with batteries.

Of course my Red does in fact work perfectly with the Anton Bauer 140s, but I'm certain that many, if not most, of us would love to see Red certify Anton Bauer, perhaps others, for use with Red. On the over-volt issue, Anton Bauer is working it now. A new regulated plate should insure compatibility.

This does not mean that Red need abandon their own batteries or continue development of the new, safer variety of Lithium cells. Certainly the hand-held and Steadicam guys need a lighter solution.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

I completely agree that it's no logics in why they're not certifying AB, except for the obvious ones. :wink:

I also want to add that AB's Dionic 90's are less then 8 grams and you can therefor carry on as many as you like.

[David Wyatt]

"Crucial Ordnance" is a great idea for a forum...well done!!

[Eryc Tramonn]

Unfortunately, the TSA is one big, fat, pathetic joke that absolutely fails to enhance safety while providing inconvenience in abundance.

Yes, you got lucky. What if they had confiscated your batteries? What if they hauled you in for the third degree just short of water-boarding?

How would that have affected your production schedule?

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

Completely agree, Leo...the TSA is a joke that primarily results in the hilarity of inconveniencing honest travelers. If someone wants to do something destructive...unfortunately, it's as good as done.

[stephan orlandic]

Hi Stephan,

They are classified the same as dynamite, just rather more dangerous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeWq6rWzChw&feature=related

Hardly stupid or hypo critic.

Stephen

Re-read my post.
You got it wrong.

They can't explode over France, but it is perfectly okay if they explode in USA.

Second of all, out of hundereds of Li-ION camera batteries I have seen, or people I work with, nobody ever experienced or heard of camera battery exploding.


More over,
BLUESHAPE company, which makes RED batteries and RED Chargers,
still have no issues shipping their products to EU countries (as I know for most of them ).

Regards

Stephan

[Michael.B]

I don't understand. How can it be dangerous. and good.

[Nikolai Pigarev]

I am planning to bring 3 REDs and all of the batteries for the upgrade... now i assume i would have trouble with the 12 batteries? How should i proceed?

[Stephen Williams]

Second of all, out of hundereds of Li-ION camera batteries I have seen, or people I work with, nobody ever experienced or heard of camera battery exploding.
Regards

Stephan

Hi,

Just because you don't have any personal experience of a problem does not make them safe for air transport on passenger air lines. There have been many incidents in the last 15 years, Sony even recalled all their batteries

http://techthoughts.org/2008/01/12/fletcher-cchicago-ditches-lithium-ion-after-fire/

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ntsb-laptopbattery-upsfire,3131.html

Stephen

Edit, btw Fire extinguishers on a plain have no effect on a lithium fire.

[JanneJansson]

This rule is very sad. I have mailed TSA guys several times when this where just a suggestion of new rules. The main idea is to increase safety, but this in IMHO will just make plane travel more dangerous. People like us that need batts to work, will just find another way of bringing that power anyway, that just is not regulated. ... but mabye more dangerous.

Industrial pro batts are pretty safe. That is just this tinkering around with "home-built" batts that are dangerous, but that is just what will happened more now.

Very, very, very stupid rule.

[Leo Ticheli]

This rule is very sad. I have mailed TSA guys several times when this where just a suggestion of new rules. The main idea is to increase safety, but this in IMHO will just make plane travel more dangerous. People like us that need batts to work, will just find another way of bringing that power anyway, that just is not regulated. ... but mabye more dangerous.

Industrial pro batts are pretty safe. That is just this tinkering around with "home-built" batts that are dangerous, but that is just what will happened more now.

Very, very, very stupid rule.

Just what are you suggesting? What "other way" are you contemplating to get your Lithium batteries on board an aircraft?

One more thought; I don't fancy the idea of flying with devices that are "pretty safe."

Best regards,

Leo

[JanneJansson]

We put guys on the moon, we have robots on Mars. I'm sure there is better ways. One ways is to have the batt brand rated. If the batt burns often, then it have a low rating. If the band never burns, then it have the "safe" rating. That way stimulates building of safe batts from a technical aspect. But what do I know, I'm not an FAA expert, just a small working guy.

[Stephen Williams]

We put guys on the moon, we have robots on Mars. I'm sure there is better ways. One ways is to have the batt brand rated. If the batt burns often, then it have a low rating. If the band never burns, then it have the "safe" rating. That way stimulates building of safe batts from a technical aspect. But what do I know, I'm not an FAA expert, just a small working guy.

Hi,

Many of the main manufactures have had battery recalls, it just takes 1 tiny bit of impurity in the factory and the batteries can become unstable.

What is wrong with renting batteries at the destination?

Stephen

[JanneJansson]

What is wrong with renting batteries at the destination?


The time it take to administrate this. The quality of the equipment. The extra cost, and the biggest reason is if you do wild life films, most places don't have rental house. Most places we go to don't have nothing.

I just use the batt-type that not banned. I have used RC-batt before just because they are good and don't cost much. Seems to be allowed to bring as-much Lithium ion batts as you can carry if they are small. So if you have batt that are in Lego-style in many small pieces, and re-assemble them, No problem :)

[Brent@RED]

I am planning to bring 3 REDs and all of the batteries for the upgrade... now i assume i would have trouble with the 12 batteries? How should i proceed?

Nikolai, it expressly states in the upgrade email what should be sent in and what should not. RED BRICKS should not be. They do not get "upgraded". Anything with a battery plate gets upgraded to current gen....

BC

[DJ Jiang]

Hi, I'm new to this forum. I just want to know is RED BRICKS the only power solution for the RED One camera?

[Stuart English]

Hi, I'm new to this forum. I just want to know is RED BRICKS the only power solution for the RED One camera?

No, any 12V - 17V D.C source can be used, but RED-BRICK is the definitely the BEST power source for a RED ONE camera...

[Shawn R]

The best source for the camera, yes. I think Red could pump out a smaller size if it was profitable.

So according to the info you can fly with two Red batteries, carry on, as long as they are attached to your camera. Do I have that right? (Within North America)

[Stuart English]

So according to the info you can fly with two Red batteries, carry on, as long as they are attached to your camera. Do I have that right? (Within North America)

The regulations suggest that each passenger can fly with two RED BRICK 140Ah batteries - they do not have to be attached to the camera.

[Shawn R]

Thanks Stuart. I like that, "suggest" lol. I know what you mean though.

[Harry Clark]

>>The regulations suggest <<

And therein lies the problem, especially here in the States.
As Leo said, the TSA is a government bureaucracy with many individuals. Some seem to be very dedicated and professional, some not so much. I'm sure some people working for the TSA use their position of power in a mildly abusive way.
All it takes is one vindictive or misinformed individual to really mess with your travel plans. They may have no real idea what the regulations are, but since they have the power to detain you and refuse passage, you could miss your flight. Perhaps you drove to the airport and can return your LiOn batteries to your car. Maybe you took a car service or perhaps you are on your return journey. What do you do with the batteries now?
Honestly, I have not had a problem yet. And lately I have taken to using my Hytron 140's on travel jobs.
But the trouble is that you never really know...
Cheers,
Harry

[Peter Savage]

No, any 12V - 17V D.C source can be used, but RED-BRICK is the definitely the BEST power source for a RED ONE camera...

I've been looking into solutions for the battery travel question....
For the record I would prefer to stick with RED Bricks but travel is a real problem for me so...

the following look like they might provide a solution:
http://www.idx-europe.co.uk/?p=products&id=ENDURA-ELITE

each removable cartridge is only 68Wh but they create a 136Wh battery. and IDX say they are outside the restrictions.
Does anyone know any reasons why these batteries would not work with the RED?

As I already have some RED Bricks does anyone know if there would be problems charging them on an IDX charger (those designed for their Endura batteries)?

They have a good pdf on their site which explains what the restrictions are:
http://www.idx-europe.co.uk/pdfs/other/IDX_transport_declaration.pdf

hope this is of help.

[Stuart English]

And that .pdf says in part -

"You can safely carry on-board a maximum of 2 spare batteries, provided that you take safety precautions and cover any exposed terminals with tape or put them in an insulated plastic bag. You can carry on-board 1 extra battery if it is physically installed or attached to your camera or equipment"

I think that there should be a " Plus" before "You can" i.e "Plus you can", but in any case its certainly two batteries.

[Peter Savage]

Hi Stuart,

the regulation about 2 spares refers to batteries greater than 99Wh. The point about the IDX batteries I mentioned is that each cartridge is only 68Wh but the 'full' battery is 136Wh ie it has two cartridges. As IDX point out you simply remove one of the cartridges from the battery case for travel and re-insert at the other end.

You can carry-on any number of batteries less than 100Wh

this is another part of the pdf:
"Lithium Ion Batteries less than 100Wh
You can safely carry on-board an unlimited amount of spare batteries, provided that you take safety precautions and cover any exposed terminals with tape or put them in an insulated plastic bag."

at the end of the day we all simply need to be able to work and for me being limited to a maximum of 3 batteries is not workable. sometimes I am away from power for 2 or three days.

peter

[JanneJansson]

All you need is to break apart your batteries in to many <100Wh pieces and you be fine :)

[Radim Schreiber]

If I read it correctly, according to this website, http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html


1) EDITED You can check-in one RED brick (since they are under 25 grams of lithium) as long as it is attached to a device - camera. It is not clear if it is enough to attach it to a charger.

2) You may NOT check-in any spares!

3) You can bring two spare RED bricks with covered connectors as carry on.


I wonder how does TSA determine amount of lithium in a battery, such a RED brick? ;-)

[Peter Savage]

So that no one is under any misapprehensions,
this is quoted from the above mentioned site:

Effective January 1, 2008, you may not pack spare lithium batteries in your checked baggage.

to me this makes it clear that the only way you can carry batteries is 'carry on'.

Elsewhere on the site it states
"Larger" lithium ion batteries are rated between 100 and 300 watt-hours...

You are allowed one larger lithium ion battery installed in a device, plus up to 2 spare larger lithium ion batteries. These are in addition to any smaller lithium ion batteries. For smaller lithium ion batteries, just follow the Basic rules.

Batteries less than 100Wh are classed as 'smaller' so you can carry-on (theoretically) any number. Of course there will be a point where the weight of what you are trying to carry on will become an issue.
I always want to carry the camera, the lens (haven't been able to get 2 lenses in when travelling alone) and a computer, and now as many batteries as I can - these 4 items are minimum just to work at all. But guess how much that lot weighs. I was once refused a carry on bag because it weighed 8Kg that took a lot of talking to get around - I think I was lucky.

[Pawel Achtel]

That's the reason why I drive everywhere :tt2:

[Peter Savage]

:yikes: I see you dress for the water driving

[David Wilson]

That's the reason why I drive everywhere :tt2:

In principle, I agree, but it adds so much time if driving to Eastern Europe.

I can and need to research all of this, but is there a general rule of thumb for international travel or do regulations vary with different airline/countries?

[Shawn R]

http://www.steadicamforum.com/index.php?showtopic=7221


Lithium ion is the only battery that has a flammable electrolyte, hence the main concern for safety. The issue lies in ALL li ion batteries, however, Anton/Bauer does get approval for our safety circuits and pcb's directly from the cell manufacturer. Most other companies do not have that approval. This means that our cell manufacturer will back us up in the unlikely event that something happens. The cell manfacturers would just wash their hands for companies that do not have approved circuits.

Also, here is something to remember. A Dionic 90, and most batteries around the 100wh range, have a total of 12 cells in them. 3 sets of 4 cells. The 3 sets in parallel is what gives you the extended run-time. A 130wh, or so, battery is 4 sets in parallel. A 150/160wh is 5 sets, etc. Well, NO cell manfacturer recommends that you put more than 3 sets in parallel because it is so hard to monitor each pack. The more packs you have, the greater the risk for bad monitoring. And, with lithium ion, since each cell is 3.6v, if one cell dies, your whole battery is dead. So, the more cells you put into the battery, the greater the risk of having a bad cell that will render your whole cell pack useless.

Now comes another fun part. If you have all of these cells in a pack, all it takes is one to short and vent, which again, venting is essentially a flammabe electrolyte. One cell vents, gets hot, catches fire, which in turn catches the next cell, etc......Now you have more cells in a package to get hotter and have a potential of causing more damage.

Our Dionic 160 is totally different from any other battery out there. We use a special military spec cell that is rated for high currents, which is why ours costs more money. However, the life span will be a lot longer than the others and there are only 2 cell packs of 4 cells (8 cells total) in this battery.

Bottom line; you asked "are HyTRON's (NiMH) safer than Dionic's (li ioin)".............YES! And, yes, it is LITHIUM ION chemistry that is the issue......

I hope this helps and sheds some light....

Paul

[Shawn R]

Anton/Bauer does get approval for our safety circuits and pcb's directly from the cell manufacturer


Does Red do the same thing with their batteries?



As for trying to find out different way to get the batteries on the planes. Just imagine if you were on your way somewhere, just getting settled in for a little shut eye when the shit storm happenned. A battery that someone had snuck on caught fire. I know I would be thinking, "If I every get my hands on that guy :boxing:.".


Best advice, "Have a copy of the rules with you and do it right.".

[Steve Sherrick]

Timely topic as I was supposed to fly for a shoot the other day and needed to bring 4 RED bricks with me but knew the restrictions would not allow it. So if I'm hearing everyone correctly and understand the TSA literature, I can get 2 in one of my carry ons which I would have contacts taped up and I could potentially attach 1 more to my RED charger in my other carry-on. I could work with 3 batteries as long as there's AC power at the shoot. If not, then I would elect to rent batteries from a local vendor wherever I'm going.

I have no interest in causing a safety risk for the airlines, they already have enough problems as it is. I just want the rules to be clear and very specific.

[Curran Giddens]

hmm... not sure the RED charger qualifies as a "device."

[Steve Sherrick]

Well, seeing that the bricks don't get attached directly to the camera, that is interesting. I suppose I can attach it to the battery belt plate which is technically how I power the camera.

Seems like a lot of grey area here.

[Shawn R]

Please note that as of January 1, 2009, lithium ion batteries over 100Wh are classified as Class 9 Dangerous Goods. RED BRICK batteries are 140Wh and therefore fall into this category. RED must comply with the applicable US domestic and international rules and regulations pertaining to documentation, shipping, and handling procedures. Since there is a Dangerous Goods surcharge for lithium ion batteries added onto the normal cost of shipping, RED will be adding a RED BRICK shipping and handling surcharge on orders including RED BRICKS.

In addition, some countries will not accept any Dangerous Goods shipments with FedEx as the carrier (see http://fedex.com/us/dangerousgoods/ for country list). For these countries, RED will have to engage the services of a different class of shipper (eg, a freight forwarder). If RED cannot use FedEx, please note that there will be increased shipping and handling charges as well as additional processing time to arrange for alternate shipping options.

Unless you have been certified to ship dangerous goods, you must work with a Dangerous Goods, Class 9-certified shipper to assist you with a shipment that includes RED BRICKS (or other regulated lithium ion batteries). Please note that applicable laws prohibit the shipping of batteries that are physically damaged. We urge you to look into the formal rules and regulations of shipping Class 9 Dangerous Goods prior to preparing your shipment. For more information on these regulations, please visit www.iata.org and www.dot.gov .

If you are going to be traveling with your RED BRICKS (or any lithium batteries), please see http://safetravel.dot.gov/larger_batt.html for rules and regulations. As of this post, you do have the ability to carry on BRICKS onto a commercial flight - with limitations, of course.

Again, RED takes these regulations very seriously. We ask you to NEVER ship a RED BRICK back to RED without complying with the same rules and regulations. RMA'ed BRICKS returned to RED without proper steps taken to ensure compliance will NOT be evaluated by RED and may not be returned to the customer. Safety is one of our very top priorities and we hope that you will work with us in this matter.

Thanks and let us know if you have any questions. We will answer what we can - but I highly recommend that you check out the links in this post for yourself to really see how this affects you.

As more information becomes available, I will post on this thread.

RED BOMB SQUAD
www.red.com/contact_us
949.206.7900


Just to clarify, I know that I don't need any special paper work to send the batteries back via ground because they are governed under different regulations not iata. In that case would Red reject my RMA batteries?

[Shawn R]

hmm... not sure the RED charger qualifies as a "device."

I was told by UPS today that they consider the charger a "device".

It states that the batteries have to be seperate when shipped so their contacts cannot touch.

The an even be connected to the charger.


I know ground is not a good idea for everyone especially if you are only doing a week job or have to travel overseas.

[Jason Wingrove]

Anyone know the correct thread for the 16GB card update / firmware recall? The 'Delivery Schedule' sticky points to this one incorrectly?

Thanks
jas

[Brent@RED]

Here is my post: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=386832&postcount=29

BC

[Jason Wingrove]

Thanks Brent. completely missed this first time round.

jas