Time for a RED RAY update...

[Casey Green]

Jim, can you throw us anxious RED RAY folks a bone?

I feel RED RAY is underrated and will be a vital tool onset in many circumstances.

Any info is much appreciated.

-Casey

[M.Halsell]

Probably the next significant announcements will be circa NAB 2009. I do agree that additional information how Red Ray fits into the production pipeline would be welcomed.

[J Davis]

Agree with Casey, Red Ray will be a game changer.
Bones appreciated, the dogs are hungry.

[Jeff Coatney]

My guess is that the new Red Ray development time frame will by necessity follow the brain development of the Epic and Scarlet. I can't wait to screen my 28K feature, natively, on a tandem 4k projector on an IMAX screen. All from my trusty little Red Ray player. It would be nice to see a proto in action.

[Tim Whitcomb]

actually.. if you try the search feature... or better yet... click on jannard... then threads started by... you can find TONS of clues in his posts...

Most recent RED RAY update was buried in this thread about economy, sounds like an exciting update to me... if you are asking for release dates... etc... you shoild know better... but Jim DID release RED PRIME ship date of APRIL... yesterday!! (which was categorized with RED RAY) on red.com...

so RED RAY hopefully will ship this summer... but just 6 weeks ago, I found this RED RAY news very exciting...

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25850

[Jared Caldwell]

I am excited about Red Ray. Many of us filmmakers focus so much on production, we forget the most important and difficult obstacle: getting our films shown.

I am all about distribution, and I hope we can get some updates on Red Ray that can get the ball rolling on this! :}

[Casey Green]

actually.. if you try the search feature... or better yet... click on jannard... then threads started by... you can find TONS of clues in his posts...

Oh, believe me, I'm quite familiar with the strategies for scouring REDUser. (Jannard posts have been a single-click Bookmark for years) :-)



Most recent RED RAY update was buried in this thread about economy, sounds like an exciting update to me... if you are asking for release dates... etc... you shoild know better... but Jim DID release RED PRIME ship date of APRIL... yesterday!! (which was categorized with RED RAY) on red.com...

Yes, I saw the mention of RED RAY footage. But that was about all that was stated. Ship Dates? Jim is always up front with those as soon as he can be, so I'm asking more about updated product specs and renders, much in the same manner that RED EPIC, Scarlet, Lenses, and other Accessories have been shown and spoken of.

Anyway, back to it, whadya say Jim? Can we expect some updates on the specs and functionality of RED RAY soon?

Any info is much appreciated!

[Jared Caldwell]

Can't wait for unNAB! Hopefully, we will see where Red Ray is up to at this point. I am really excited about the potential of this unknown player... :}

[Johann Schulz]

RR's so ahead of it's time, really. That's the biggie, but not really, because time's imploding. You've probably heard that BluRay's run is limited to a couple of years. If only we could dump the past and get on with the future! NeverTheLess, I still love those movies where in 2050, they're sitting around post-apocalyptic, listening to old vinyls, not to mention, like they did in 'LOST'....

[Brian Harbauer]

The future is apocalyptic? I was hoping it would be like the Jetsons :o(...

[Peter Mosiman]

The future is apocalyptic? I was hoping it would be like the Jetsons :o(...

hahah lmao. I hope its like the Jetsons as well. :thumbsup:

[Evan Meades]

yeah "rastro" sounnds good!

[Joseph Ward]

Red 4K Projector update! :biggrin:

[Nathan VanderByl]

Red 4K Projector update! :biggrin:

I always imagined the Red Rocket as a precursor to one. Here's hoping!

[Brian Harbauer]

In the past before the One was released, they had mentioned something about eventually making monitors and projectors. But that was a ways back and RED's game plan changes pretty quick. Perhaps it's still the plan. But it was brought up in regards to workflow, being able to work with the full 4K files and see them at 1:1.

[BillBarnes]

Jim mentioned future Red displays the other day:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=475673&postcount=14

Can't wait, 2:1 at 4k or more would be pretty damn hot

[Noah Kadner]

I'd prefer a Blade Runner future- that's a nice mixture of Jetsons with semi-apocalyptic, with plenty of street food sushi and noodles to keep me happy. Come to think of it, that's basically Tokyo.

Noah

[Adam Jeal]

I asked Jim at IBC wether or not Red Ray is intended as competition to the studio's DCI spec and as a means of opening up digital cinema distribution to more people and he said 'yes'.

[Martin Weiss]

I asked Jim at IBC wether or not Red Ray is intended as competition to the studio's DCI spec and as a means of opening up digital cinema distribution to more people and he said 'yes'.

I spoke to a cinema tech the other day, and he figured that we the current pricing system, it will cost more to rent the projector than to rent the cinema itself if you wanted to show an independent film.

Imagine if the prices for projectors could come down. That way cinemas would not have to enter into agreements with the (big) distributors in order to finance their new beamers. And cinema just might become much freer again!

[Axel Mertes]

Hi!

I hope Jim will have the chance to establish RED Ray or similar based systems as a true alternative to DCI specs. And if it is only for having a competition there and outrule the monopolism inherited by the blockbuster industry.

I guess some specs of the RED RAY will definetly change:

1. I expect it to use HDMI 1.4 specs. These include 4K transport over a single cable connection.

2. By end of the year we will see the new 30" 4096x2560y displays coming up. I have seen the panels already listed by the manufacturer. That means we will have definetly 4K monitoring *payable* by end of the year for everyone. And for home use, if desired. I have no pricing info yet, but I would consider the same price range that the original 30" 2560x1600y panels from Dell and Apple had in the beginning. And those came down in less than two years to below 1000 US$... Imagine that...

We wait in Europe for the broadcasters to finally adopt HD officially. The state television stations decided to use 720/50p for distribution in Europe! I always promised them that the end users will have full HD equipment before they even start broadcasting. End users will have full HD cameras before the TV stations even start broadcasting HD.

Now I make a new proposal:

We will see 4K enabled home TV systems BEFORE HD is officially starting in Europe.
RED RAY would be a key component at this time.

Btw, I wonder if there will be a HDMI 1.4 output option board for the RED Rocket™ when the first displays become available, that support HDMI 1.4?

Axel

[Gunleik Groven]

I have said this before:

RED RAW is more important than RED ONE
Red RAY has the potential to be far more important than any cam RED can release

And I went into this because of codec-guru Graeme. Didn't even know who that Jim guy was, anyway. I know who he is now. Graeme is still the great motivator!

Lookin' foreward to RED RAY, in other words, but can wait till it is in early alpha before purchasing...

:)

[Mark L. Pederson]

I was just thinking the other day ... I wonder how much the RED Rocket will accelerate encoding a file for RED RAY?

[Gunleik Groven]

I was just thinking the other day ... I wonder how much the RED Rocket™ will accelerate encoding a file for RED RAY?

a lot?:hurray:

[Mark L. Pederson]

a lot?:hurray:

well ... we know the board will accelerate the debayer of the R3D ... so that's half the battle .... but could it also accelerate the ENCODE?

[Steven Caesare]

I was just thinking the other day ... I wonder how much the RED Rocket™™ will accelerate encoding a file for RED RAY?

I suspect not, but I'm not real bright.

It appears the board is based on a DVS design, and somehow I don't think that IP was there.

Final encode for disitribution I suspect will be a horsepower-hungry endaavor...

-sc

[Axel Mertes]

Someone should fix the "tm" addition routine to whenever we spell "RED Rocket" here. Ha, see! Its there again. I never typed it!

It seems everytime we quote the word, another "tm" gets added. That could get very loooong...

Just sayin...

Axel

[Gunleik Groven]

red rocket red rocket red rocket pocket rocket

just testing...

[Axel Mertes]

RED Rocket™ RED Rocket™ RED Rocket™ pocket rocket

just testing...

See...

[Raul Gonzo]

Was there an update for this on Oct. 31st?
I couldn,t find one....

[Peter Mosiman]

Was there an update for this on Oct. 31st?
I couldn,t find one....

Nope. None that I could find/or saw. I wonder what stage of development its at right now...

[Stephen Gentle]

The only mention of RED RAY I could find was:


...the quick summary is RED RAY is coming along very nicely..

[Jarred Land]

RED RAY is coming along very nicely... We will try and add some information to the end of November announcement.

[KETCH ROSSi]

RED RAY is coming along very nicely... We will try and add some information to the end of November announcement.

Good to hear, I think that the Red Ray as well as the new RED Station will and must be a important addition to any RED user's work Station.

[Casey Green]

RED RAY is coming along very nicely... We will try and add some information to the end of November announcement.

Thanks, Jarred. It certainly makes one curious seeing that the 2009 date is still on RED's home page. Looking forward to hearing more about it.

[Stuart English]

More RED RAY information here - Post 4 and 5

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=38274



Will we be able to write RRD files from R3D's only or can we go from DPX's?

Yes, those are the two fundamental image file formats that we accept as inputs for RED RAY encoding.



The RRD format and Red Ray Pro suggests that some degree of security has been factored into the codec.

Yes, there is media file and data link security available in the RED RAY system, but you are not forced to use those if you don't want to.

[Rainer Fritz]

Stuart just for clarification:

We will be able to encode the RRD format with an application on our MAC? Something like Rocketcine or Redcine-X ? And load it then on the Red Ray Pro ? Will I be able to encode it from my finishing system?

Will the Red Ray Pro in the future be able to playback 2k and 4k DCPs as well ? If so it would be great, because we could use the Red Ray Pro also as DCP Playbackserver?
Just a thought.....

How big will the internal storage of the Red Ray Pro? So it would be interesting whats the real bandwidth of the new Redcodes. So Redcode 100 means maximum data rate of 100 Mbit/s ?

thx
rainer

[Stuart English]

Actually REDCODE 100 is more like 100MBytes/sec..

As for storage capacity, consider the average data rate of a RED RAY 4K movie is more like 10 Mbit/sec.

Encoding 4K to fit that utra-low data rate is obviously highly complex. There will be encoder details later.


Your 2K and 4K DCI playback question is an interesting one. Not sure, so I'll have pass on that for now.....

[Vincent Rice]

I doubt that RED have had the time to negotiate the political and technical minefield that is DCI. In many ways I hope they don't. I would very much like to see REDRay Pro as the 'alternative' Cinema Server - there are many uses for such a thing (advertising, indie films, concert films etc... even live feeds via ethernet) - and I think the concept would sell. All DCI installations are supposed to have direct access to the projector that bypasses the whole encryption business for just such uses.

So, we need an encoder solution (preferably realtime), a simple serial control protocol for cinema automation, an SDK for fine-grain control of the unit (inc. WiFi/iPhone?) and possibly a matched Quad DVI/SDI switcher to make installation a breeze.

For screening rooms the unit is of course a no-brainer. Exciting stuff.

[Mar Koas]

What bitrate it will need for 1080p? Can this compression used with materials from non red sources, or it will be not effective with artifacts (film grain)?

[Stuart English]

We accept .R3D and 2K and 4K DPX files as encoder input, so yes the latter could be from a film scan.

[Vincent Rice]

Having listened to the fxguide REDcast its clear that RED have indeed been taking 'soundings' from DCI members. Very interesting. There's going to be pressure from the exhibitors once they find out the potential cost saving of going REDistribution; but of course the paranoia of 'Hollywood' knows no bounds. The security issues took the various DCI committees years to work out. Might a studio or cinema chain break ranks with the whole DCI concept and go 'rogue'? Interesting times - love it.

[Carsten Kurz]

There might be a market for playing unencrypted DCPs. Which is 'just' MXFwrapped JPEG2000, which certainly is doable for the Pro Version. Would be a starting point. More market if that would be a 3D capable 2k player, for production, previews, dailes, etc.
(With the control options RED Ray Pro offers, 3D would certainly be possible with two synced machines anyway)

But the full DCI-FIPS-Stuff, audio and video watermarking, etc....
Sure RED could do that if they wanted, but is that market large enough for the effort needed - especially now when the DCI industry starts to move towards Integrated Media Block?

- Carsten

[Casey Green]

Hi Stuart,

Couple questions re: RED RAY Pro... (features requests from a while back)

For on set playback (and many other applications) I would like to formally request these specific RED RAY features:

1) Generate and edit clip Playlists.

2) Toggle Loops for individual clips as well as playlists.

3) Adjustable In and Out points for clips.

4) Generate multiple Markers for being able to jump to during playback.

5) Control player from remote system. (IP controllable, Menu's/Interface/Timeline controlled via software running on Desktop/Laptop, etc.)

Are these able to make it into RR Pro first release? Also, curious as to a ballpark price? Under $2K, Under $4K? etc...

Thanks for any info. :-)

[Vincent Rice]

There might be a market for playing unencrypted DCPs. Which is 'just' MXFwrapped JPEG2000, which certainly is doable for the Pro Version. Would be a starting point. More market if that would be a 3D capable 2k player, for production, previews, dailes, etc.
(With the control options RED Ray Pro offers, 3D would certainly be possible with two synced machines anyway)

But the full DCI-FIPS-Stuff, audio and video watermarking, etc....
Sure RED could do that if they wanted, but is that market large enough for the effort needed - especially now when the DCI industry starts to move towards Integrated Media Block?

- Carsten

Good points Carsten.

[Stuart English]

So RED RAY Pro has Gigabit Ethernet and Wireless 802.11. Is it limited to fimware upgrade downloads or can it media stream 4kish material?


The encoding of the 4K files is very complex, hence the intended distribution model for RED RAY and RED RAY Pro media is download / store / play.


Of course this has zero importance without domestic 3k/4k monitoring.

With it's 4K HD to 1080p downconversion, connecting your RED RAY to an existing high end plasma or front projector will also work nicely.

The extra bit depth and higher resolution of a 4K RED RAY encoding v's "1080p native" distribution systems is still apparent to the observer.

[Tim Whitcomb]

The encoding of the 4K files is very complex, hence the intended distribution model for RED RAY and RED RAY Pro media is download / store / play.



With it's 4K HD to 1080p downconversion, connecting your RED RAY to an existing high end plasma or front projector will also work nicely.

The extra bit depth and higher resolution of a 4K RED RAY encoding v's "1080p native" distribution systems is still apparent to the observer.

That is AMAZING to hear Stuart, I think Im more excited about RED RAY than EPIC... nahh, I want it all, and I want it now!

[K. cromwell]

Seems this thing is going to be over $3,000 I guess we will wait and see.

[JD Holloway]

The encoding of the 4K files is very complex, hence the intended distribution model for RED RAY and RED RAY Pro media is download / store / play.

Thanks for that Stuart. I just cant help thinking that if the data stream is barely SD deep then encoding could be hosted, and the data wrapped in some sort of codec, buffered and unwrapped at the enduser. Downloads could be pretty quick though if files are reasonably small. Stilll it sounds brilliant.

[Marc Jonkers]

Actually REDCODE 100 is more like 100MBytes/sec..

As for storage capacity, consider the average data rate of a RED RAY 4K movie is more like 10 Mbit/sec.

Encoding 4K to fit that utra-low data rate is obviously highly complex. There will be encoder details later.


Your 2K and 4K DCI playback question is an interesting one. Not sure, so I'll have pass on that for now.....

So 4K is 1,25mb a second ???? That's ....
So on a 8GB Cf you could store 6400 sec , that is 106 minutes in 4K !!!!

What will be 1080p then ? 0.5 mb/sec ? (or even less ?)
So on a 8 GB CF you could store 16000 sec , that is 266 minutes ???????

[Stuart English]

So on a 8GB Cf you could store 6400 sec , that is 106 minutes in 4K !!!!



Yes, at an average date rate of 10Mb/s (1.25MB/s) that suggests 6400 sec (106 minutes) on an 8GB CF or SD Card / USB-2 stick....

[Marc Jonkers]

Wait a moment ....
10 mbit/s for 4 K
With UMTS you can go to 21 mbit/s , so you could receive 4K streams with your mobile phone ??????? This can't be true I guess.

[Steven Caesare]

'Tis true.

And has been demonstrated. Live. To a big group of videophiles. On a ginnormous projection screen.

It's the "too good to be true" exception that proves the rule... for this century.

-sc

[brian hanson]

15 mbits/second, isn't is called red 4k now?

[Stephen Gentle]

15 mbits/second, isn't is called red 4k now?

That seems to be the latest news. I'm wondering if the bitrate included audio before, so the bump in bitrate might have been from adding that in. Or it could be a bit of a quality increase.

[Steven Caesare]

Did the recent RED Day indicate it's now 15Mbps?

If so, that puts it above the 10.08Mbps peak rate of standard DVD, but that's somewhat academic in terms of playback... there probably hasn't been a 1X computer DVD mechanism shipped in 10 years.

It does mean if that is the average bitrate is close to that, we'd be looking at less than 90 minutes of footage fitting on a single DVD.

If the 15Mbps number is the PEAK, and average is closer to 10, we could be looking at close to 2 hours fitting on a standard dual-layer data DVD, which I think was one of the targets mentioned at the outset for Red Ray.

-sc

[Tim Morten]

They stated that the first reel shown was at 15. It looked phenomenal (in part due to the lust-worthy projector, but the codec deserves lots of credit too).

[J Davis]

Sorry for a n00b question here but when team red says RED RAY 4K they are referring to 4k rgb aren't they? (In other words 5K raw bayer)

Or do they mean the original 4k raw bayer and they are spitting out 3K rgb?

[Stuart English]

We mean 4K RGB. i.e. you would feed the encoder 4K RGB DPX or TIFF files.

[J Davis]

Thanks Stuart.

[Casey Green]

Any updates on RED RAY or RED RAY Pro?

(btw, the RED.com homepage still reads RED RAY 2009)...

[Jarred Land]

Soon... :)

[Casey Green]

Sweet!

See ya Sat. :-)

[JD Holloway]

Soon... :)

"How soon is now?"; if I may borrow a phrase.

Red 4K update plz!

[chrislancaster]

I thought this was released in January ...?

[JD Holloway]

Cisco's new CRS-3 seems to be a good fit for RED fork.

http://www.crn.com/networking/223300077;jsessionid=2BME1QBFXXODVQE1GHOSKHWATMY32 JVN

If this system is scalable, (no doubt it is), it might be a good basis for Cine-IP I would think.