Advise Me, PLEASE! Learning and Interim Camera Choice?

[Renew]

Okay, here's the situation: I'm a former VFX artist, studying to learn cinematography. Let's say I've got (some) money to throw at the problem, and I need to find a camera that I can use to practice/teach myself good lensing skills, composition, etc. so that when I do finally get my greedy mits on my RED, I know what the hell I'm doing--and maybe even have some lenses I can transfer over.

I shoot stills a lot as a dress-rehearsal... but it's just not the same, obviously. I'm looking for something that I can use to develop good skills like nailing my focus without hunting around and will also have decent-enough image quality that I don't look at what I've done and want to jump off buildings...

Accessories are an issue as well--anything I buy now (tripods, lenses, workflow, camera cases) whenever possible, should be of sufficient quality, and sufficiently professional that they'll make sense to use with the Red.

Suggestions?

The SI 2K Mini? And if so, what lense system/mounts would be best for now and future usability ?

Go 'cheap' and get a Canon XL-H1? Or even just an XL2 and forget about HD for now? (Whining sound...) I'm not even sure any lense available for it has range markings (which are probably a good idea, yes?).

Some other solution I haven't even considered yet?

Advice on specific cameras--or just persoanl stories about how you shooters have learned your skills are appreciated. Respond to this forum post, or feel free to send to me directly--papacy@pacbell.net.

Again, thanks very much for any wisdom you want to share.

[Manfred Lopez]

How about taking a dedicated workshop like those offered by the Rockport International Workshops. Sometimes there is no substitute for formal education.

http://www.theworkshops.com/filmworkshops/index.asp

[Renew]

Funny you should mention them--I AM looking at The Workshops (though I'd rather find something closer to LA -or- in a foreign country, maybe, to take advantage of the exotic locale)...

...though a formal program doesn't replace the kind of ongoing technique practice and work on self-generated projects I'm interested in doing w/ my own equipment.

And thanks for that reply, also--are The Workshops well-respected by those in the know? Anyone been there?

[Michael Schrengohst]

Get a used HVX200, the workflow is more in line with what the RED will be....

[Manfred Lopez]

also--are The Workshops well-respected by those in the know? Anyone been there?

Yup. Respected. They use professionals on their time off to teach the things instead of staff teachers.

[Poi Boy]

I agree, buy a used HVX...want to buy mine ?
Aloha
-A

[Renew]

Okay, I'm hearing you... and then work with lens adapter kits to get heavy DOF effects, etc?

I just stumbled across the P&S Teknik site...

Anyone want to suggest which mounts are best for the (Red) future? PL mount? I use Canon EOS lenses for stills but it's looking like that's not going to help...

You guys are helping SO much... keep 'em coming!

[Poi Boy]

Don't waste your money on the ps adapter if this is a short term solution for you. The other adapters are all about the same quality at a fraction of the price.
Aloha
-A

[Dominic Jones]

For instance:

http://www.redrockmicro.com/
or
http://www.sgpro.co.uk/

Happy shooting...

[Dominic Jones]

Oh, sorry - as regards the EOS lenses, Birger Engineering are making a 3rd party EOS mount for RED, so they may come in handy for smaller jobs, but if you're based in LA then there are plenty of rental houses where you can get good PL mount glass on a job-by-job basis. May be a little expensive to learn on, though - depends on your financial situation...

[Mike the beginner]

someone suggested to to me that it would be wise to learn in advance of the red by purchasing the canon still slr like the 400D (IN UK) This EOS SLR type sensor is quite close to the red sensor in size. This makes sense initially and even more so if you may be thinking to utilise the OES canon lenses with the birger mount and red super grip etc.

I must say the price of cine lenses is to me a major drawback going with red, as coming from prosumer equipment priced accessories etc to professional equipment with their much higher prices is hard to accept.

My whole conclusion on the development of the red camera is one of total respect fopr the red team and what they have achieved. A fabulous camera to knock the stuffing out of current professional priced cameras.

That said the price of all other proffesional equipment is still priced far too high relative to the value of the red camera itself. Look at tripods as an example, you will pay about $5,000 for a really good tripod. Compare that to the red camera and include the EVFand LCD IT STILL COSTS JUST UNDER $20,000 with your discount. If like me you have to purchase everythimg to get you started rather than rent, then you really have to think carefully about whether right now is the right time to move upward to a red camera. Not because the price of the red camera is not astounding value which it is!!!
But the fact that all the other professional equipment have still to catch up with the new much lower priced red camera.

Several people have said over a year ago that the true price of red is much higher than $17,500. Whilst even they have probably underestimated the true cost, i think their negativity was misplaced on targeting the red camera.

Truth is red have altered the price of proffessional camera purchases now and in future and that is trully groundbreaking stuff. But it will take several more years for a lot of the other stuff to be similarly priced i,e, sharply downwards, and that will only happen when more and more people can afford the red camera itself.

I have finally priced everything that i need to complete my equipment. I have allowed so much for the super grip and mount, The total cost is frightening.

I cannot advise as i know little, others can do that! But some of us have to make sure our research is very thorough and all the other professional equipment has to be priced into the equation. It is that element that really annoys me. Some will say welcome to the professional world of videography as they know it. My reply is i want to welcome myself into the professional world as red has shown it to be. Sadly it will take a few more years for red to impact on the accessories but i applaud them for their audacity and sheer brashness to kick the big boys where it hurts.

Sorry for the long post guys but i felt this had to be said.

Mike the beginner

[Renew]

Well, thanks very much to all contributors of this thread! I've learned a lot.

I had no idea there was so much after-market activity--the Red Rock Micros and the Reel Streams... almost seems like someone at Panasonic must have DELIBERATELY designed the HVX with so many backdoors.

One last question: is there a quick guide anywhere for lenses? I just want to know what people are talking about when they say "PL mount" or "B4" or "S16" and, if possible, which are better in terms of image quality AND future compatibility/availability.

[Joel Kaye]

Well, thanks very much to all contributors of this thread! I've learned a lot.

I had no idea there was so much after-market activity--the Red Rock Micros and the Reel Streams... almost seems like someone at Panasonic must have DELIBERATELY designed the HVX with so many backdoors.

One last question: is there a quick guide anywhere for lenses? I just want to know what people are talking about when they say "PL mount" or "B4" or "S16" and, if possible, which are better in terms of image quality AND future compatibility/availability.

Personally I hated the HVX because the viewfinder and LCD are the worst of the bunch.

If you're an SLR guy you'll probably like a HD-200 better. It has a real manual lens on it. Match that with a 35mm adapter and you get better low light performance, better resolution, better dynamic range, a more adjustable picture, a far better focusing system AND a built in 180 flip function - which you'll need if you get an adapter that doesn't flip the image.

Or buy an HV-20 and stick an adapter on that.

Check out http://www.cinevate.com/ in addition to RedRockMicro.com

You can see the grain on the Letus adapter. The RedRock lets less light through than the Cinevate but the bokeh seems nice. Build quality of the Cinevate is the best IMHO. They are all a little bulky though.

HV20 + Brevis35 (Cinevate)
http://www.cinevate.com/images/brevisonice.wmv

That'll get you where you're going until RED shows up... for $3K.

[Renew]

Well, I ended up going or the HVX/RedRock strategy... though I was a little upset when I got an order confirmation e-mail from RedRock telling me they only 'build-to-order' so it'll be three weeks until it ships... maybe I missed the fine print when ordering, but that kind of delay would definitely have been a variable for me--probably a decisive one. Oh well, hopefully it will be worth the wait...

[Costelloe Michael]

I use this set-up a lot as a teaching strategy and I think it will put you in a really good place as far as learning is concerned.

Also check out the HVX book by Barry Green. It will give you something to read whilst you wait for your redrock.

PS Make sure you hard mount it!

Mike C

[Costelloe Michael]

The redrock to the HVX that is not the book!

[Poi Boy]

Good choice Renew, it will be a great learning tool and I ditto the hard mount advice.
Aloha
-A
P.S.
when you get Red you will be so happy to not have to deal with the adapter's shortcomings anymore.

[Joel Kaye]

when you get Red you will be so happy to not have to deal with the adapter's shortcomings anymore.

Exactly. I love the look of the adapters, but at the same time I really want a more robust solution both physically and the resolution / codec. It's a just a matter of how long I have to wait to get my "fix".

Seems like there should be an announcement soon...

Have you been able to go handheld with the HVX and the RedRock? I couldn't pull it off when I had that combo.