Why are primes exciting? [Archive]

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David Dennis

03-21-2009, 01:24 AM

Shawn Bannon

03-21-2009, 01:30 AM

Usually faster, lighter, and better optically. Less breathing , different flares, different bokeh, totally different look than zoom. Closer Focusing. Thats just a few. Totally different shooting style, move the camera instead of zooming in. etc... etc...

Evin Grant

03-21-2009, 01:33 AM

An Angenieux 18-80 T2.2 is about as close as any zoom gets to replacing a set of T2 primes and it cost's almost $60,000. Not to mention it is rather heavy, so no handheld or steadi-cam shots. You could also go with the Angenieux 15-40 and 28-76 T2.6 which are much smaller (hand holdable) but cost about $50,000 each.

The prime advantage (pun intended) is weight/quality/lens speed(T stop). Primes give the DP the best of all three with the only trade off being switching lenses, which with good AC's happens very fast. There are only two zooms in the T2 range, the above mentioned Angie and the Cooke S4 15-40 T2. As far as price goes there is no free lunch, you will pay real money for good glass, prime or zoom. Even the Red primes cost more than the camera, and I would rather put more money up there any day.
It's one of the few places on the camera you can really see the money being spent on the screen.

Brandon Fraley

03-21-2009, 01:34 AM

harder better faster stronger :) Zooms are usually at least a stop or two slower, not as sharp, they breath more, and are larger and heavier than primes. As a general rule, if you want the best glass, you use primes.

Brandon Fraley

03-21-2009, 01:34 AM

wow apparently I write very slowly :)

conrad gaunt

03-21-2009, 06:59 AM

I love my five Zeiss ZFs.

I also love their total price, no doubt a result of the large market for such glass in the world of photography, industry, and now cinematography. I think they're the best "bang for your buck" if you can deal with their small size and reverse rotation.

They're also full frame, which also means
a) Your using the best bit of the glass
b) They're ready for any FF/sensor cameras

Steve Gibby

03-21-2009, 08:14 AM

I hope nobody minds a bit of curiosity from a neophyte ....

Why would someone use a prime, which come in sets costing scary sums, instead of a zoom which is much more flexible and far cheaper?

It seems like people are more excited about primes than zooms, but I've always thought primes were yesterday's technology and zooms the way of the future.

What am I missing?

Thanks!

D

Those excited about primes do most of their work in genres of production, particularly narrative cinema, where primes make the most sense because of prime's attributes, which have been itemized accurately on this thread.

That said, RED One has and is being used, and Epic and Scarlet to come will additionally be used widely, in genres of production where zooms have a practical advantage over primes, because of zooms multiple focal lengths. There are many genres of production (sports, nature, wildlife, documentaries, some music production sequences, many EFP genres, etc.) where a zoom is the usual choice of lens, and primes have a more limited use (specialty b-roll, etc.) - simply because it is impractical, dangerous, or time constraints won't allow walking to each setup, which you obviously have to do with primes. In these genres of production, shots are rarely taken with wide open apertures, but rather apertures between 4 and 11, thus high speed wide open isn't an issue. Zooms are usually used as variable primes.

My advice to you David, is to analyze what genres of production you intend to work in, then buy/rent your lenses accordingly. In general terms, there is no "better" or "worse" lens choice for use on RED One, or Epic and Scarlet to come - simply "better" or "worse" lens choices for each genre, or portion thereof, which you shoot. Again, analyze the needs of the genre (or shot sequence) of production you're working on, what the best focal length (or lengths) is for it, the aperture range you'll need to work in, the delivery medium and venue, and choose your lenses for that day's shooting accordingly.

RED User is heavily over-weighted with narrative cinema workers, who naturally, and rightly so, are deeply interested in primes - thus the buzz here on primes. But RED User also isn't an accurate measuring stick for the percentages of lens use in real world production, where vast amounts of professional production with RED One (and Epic and Scarlet) has been, is now, and will be done using zooms.

Me and my crews use zooms about 80% of the time in the genres we work in - but we definitely know when to switch to primes, and don't hesitate to do so when its needed for shot sequences.

If a high degree of mobility is a requirement of the days work, and zooms are needed for the work genre, cine zooms simply aren't the ticket, because their size/weight to focal length ratio doesn't fit into a mobility scenario. For high mobility genres, where zooms are the best choice of lens type, we use 35mm stills zooms extensively on RED One - and Epic/Scarlet to come. They're generally much lighter and more compact per focal length than cine zooms - thus enabling more mobility.

Simply put, pick the right tool for the job at hand and go get your images! But there may be a different "right tool" for each job or portion thereof.

Hope this added insight helps you...

Tom Lowe

03-21-2009, 09:23 AM

Charles Angus

03-21-2009, 11:15 AM

Some good points, Steve. Insightful as always.

OptiTek

03-21-2009, 12:45 PM

In the area of FF35 stills, you have instances these days where a zoom will blow the doors off of any prime. Example: the Nikon 14-24 G. Of course, I am speaking only of optical quality, not focus or breathing, etc.

With FF35 DSMC cinema, you also get into a situation, even in narrative work, where f/2.8 is plenty fast, and you might not even want to go faster, or you will miss focus. I dare say f/4 will be fast enough for a lot of longer focal lengths, just due to the DOF issues, and the fact that these new FF35 sensors have stunning light sensitivity.

I tested 14-24 Nikkor and 24-70 and they simply Blow ANY prime away optical performance wise.
Most of the Cine primes hype these days comes from the traditional
inferiority of the zooms- but no longer. The amount of money and, consequently, engineering genius put in zooms resulted in incredible advance.
I tested these against ultra primes and no contest-the Nikons beat them any stop, any FL.
And let's not forget the elitist desires in a lot of the waannabe DPs- they look a lot cooler using cine primes.
Let's face it guys: breathing, image shift was non issue 10 years ago, now all of the sudden you can't shoot with it.
OK, rant over
Jacek Zakowicz, OptiTek.org

Tony Lorentzen

03-21-2009, 12:51 PM

But how would you fix the aperture problem with those two zooms? Using the Underdahl mount?

Nick Gardner

03-21-2009, 01:00 PM

Size and weight have a lot to do with it. Speed also. Some people prefer to work off of primes for the discipline of it. They are the right choice some times, and some times not. they are all just tools.

Nick

Tom Lowe

03-21-2009, 01:02 PM

I tested 14-24 Nikkor and 24-70 and they simply Blow ANY prime away optical performance wise.
Most of the Cine primes hype these days comes from the traditional
inferiority of the zooms- but no longer. The amount of money and, consequently, engineering genius put in zooms resulted in incredible advance.
I tested these against ultra primes and no contest-the Nikons beat them any stop, any FL.
And let's not forget the elitist desires in a lot of the waannabe DPs- they look a lot cooler using cine primes.
Let's face it guys: breathing, image shift was non issue 10 years ago, now all of the sudden you can't shoot with it.
OK, rant over
Jacek Zakowicz, OptiTek.org

edit.

obviously breathing is an issue if you are shooting cinema footage. i have no idea how those nikon zooms are in terms of breathing.

Nils J. Nesse

03-21-2009, 01:12 PM

I tested 14-24 Nikkor and 24-70 and they simply Blow ANY prime away optical performance wise.

Cool. Glad to hear they're better than the Ultra Primes, I was always underwhelmed by the UP's performance.

Do you think the Nikon 14-24/24-70 are better than the Angenieux Rouge zooms? How about the Red 18-85?

I tested these against ultra primes and no contest-the Nikons beat them any stop, any FL.

Ultra Primes sure beat the Nikons at f/1.7 though...

Jeff Kilgroe

03-21-2009, 01:25 PM

Breathing has always been an issue. 40 years ago it wasn't a major issue, it was just a way of life... Many of the cine zooms and latter model primes have designs to minimize breathing. The way a lens breathes will lend a certain aesthetic to what you're shooting, it can be desirable or not. It can be downright annoying too.

The Nikon 14-24 and 24-70 are indeed amazing lenses. Lots of good lenses out there for DSLRs these days, many of these lenses outperform "cine" lenses when considering the optics. But they have simpler and cheaper construction and are produced in large quantities by comparison. Economics of scale and all that. I think as full frame 35 progresses as a motion picture format via RED's DSMC and what Nikon, Canon and others are doing with DSLRs, I'm looking to these manufacturers to bring us lenses that perform equally well for stills and motion. RED's announced FF35 electronic lenses are very intriguing.

Tom Lowe

03-21-2009, 01:36 PM

RED's announced FF35 electronic lenses are very intriguing.

What lenses have been announced, Jeff?

Jeff Kilgroe

03-21-2009, 02:04 PM

What lenses have been announced, Jeff?

Just the little bit of what was announced 12/3. So not much. But the render sure looked nice. ;) I'm hoping they find a way to make them more "cine-friendly", with a longer throw distance or angle of rotation for focus, make the focus ring turn the same way as a cine lens. The focus and zoom rings in the render were wide to grip with your fingers, but looked like they could interface with a gear for a FF or motor system.

Steve Gibby

03-21-2009, 02:06 PM

What lenses have been announced, Jeff?

Jeff is referring to RED's 12/3 announcement, specifically the new RED Electronic Lenses (FF35).

On the page titled "Pick a lens...or ten...", the New RED Electronic Lenses are:

15-25mm f2.8 AF (auto focus)
25-100mm f2.8 AF stabilized
70-200mm f2.8 AF stabilized
300mm f2.8 AF stabilized
1.4x Extender AF
2.0x Extender AF

I'll definitely be buying each of these!

Then if you check the 12/3 announcement, "Interchangeable and Upgradeable everything..." page, under mounts, you'll find that smart mounts in PL, RED, Canon, and Nikon are planned, and that "Mounts include power, and intelligent lens data interfaces".

So we'll have smart mounts, with new FF35 electronic lenses which sport auto focus and image stabilization...way, way cool I'd say!

For most of the type of work I usually do, these lenses will be far and away a better choice than cine zooms or cine primes.

Cool stuff for sure...

Steve Gibby

03-21-2009, 02:11 PM

But how would you fix the aperture problem with those two zooms? Using the Underdahl mount?

I've been using the Underdahl Nikon mount with both Nikon lenses with aperture rings, and Nikon DX lenses without aperture rings - both with very good results. The Underdahl Nikon mount is virtually identical to the original RED Nikon mount, except on the Underdahl there is the added little brass twist knob for changing aperture on DX lenses. In tandem with the histogram, stop lights, and zebras for seeing what the camera is seeing on aperture, I've found the Underdahl mount to work quite well.

Steve Gibby

03-21-2009, 02:19 PM

Some good points, Steve. Insightful as always.

Thanks Charles...

As you know, I venture out into a lot different genres than most of the posters here, so the ergonomics, lens, and usage of my crew's camera setups are necessarily quite different than narrative cinema setups. Many here may never setup and lens their rigs like I describe, but my lens usage descriptions may help some people here to expand their offerings and work genres - a very good survival strategy in the fiscally challenged industry of today. The more versatile we are, the better chance we have to survive the economic crunch.

Tom Lowe

03-21-2009, 02:38 PM

So this 15-25mm f2.8 AF (auto focus) is FF35? That sounds excellent!!

Steve Gibby

03-21-2009, 02:59 PM

So this 15-25mm f2.8 AF (auto focus) is FF35? That sounds excellent!!

Yup - unless specs change, all those new RED Electronic Lenses will be FF35, have AF, and all but the 15-25 also feature stabilization - I'm salivating to test them out :biggrin:

KETCH ROSSi

03-21-2009, 03:09 PM

Yup - unless specs change, all those new RED Electronic Lenses will be FF35, have AF, and all but the 15-25 also feature stabilization - I'm salivating to test them out :biggrin:

He He, make sure Pamala carries an extra large towel for you Steve :)

I can't say I fill the same about Zooms, at list for now, but then again anything can change, but for now I continue to be a super freak of shallow DOF and the attributes of Primes.

BTW, I hope Manilla went great for you and Pamala.

ciao

Steve Gibby

03-21-2009, 03:26 PM

He He, make sure Pamala carries an extra large towel for you Steve :)

I can't say I fill the same about Zooms, at list for now, but then again anything can change, but for now I continue to be a super freak of shallow DOF and the attributes of Primes.

BTW, I hope Manilla went great for you and Pamala.

ciao

LOL - towels are a necessity!

The 10-RED camera Journey concert in Manila went superbly well Ketch. The 4k HD footage from all ten RED cameras was stunning. Journey's management was all smiles - and Pamala's FF35 stills (Canon 5D) of the event and crew were excellent too - the executive producer was way stoked with all camera work on the event. It was a fun gig and a great crew!

BTW, as a DP for the event, my recommendation, which was followed, was for zooms on every single RED camera - Optimo 12x and Angenieux 25-250 on all cameras needing long focal length, and Nikon short to mid-length zooms on the jib, Steadicam, and all shoulder held cameras. It was a good example of a production where zooms were far and away the best choice, thus we used absolutely no primes for the production. Zooms were definitely the right tool for the job. As a DP approaching equipment decisions for a production, I try to keep an open mind and select the best type of lenses for the project - with no pre-conceived biases. The right focal lengths, apertures, ergonomics, and quality of images acquired are my lens considerations as a DP - and the equipment must also fit within the allotted budget.

I love using primes wide open for shallow DOF when it is the best choice for a production, or portion thereof, but I always try to analyze what the best lens for a production is and go with that - and often, at least in the genres I shoot, the answer to that question is that a zoom is best.

Ciao!

KETCH ROSSi

03-21-2009, 03:35 PM

LOL - towels are a necessity!

The 10-RED camera Journey concert in Manila went superbly well Ketch. The 4k HD footage from all ten RED cameras was stunning. Journey's management was all smiles - and Pamala's FF35 stills (Canon 5D) of the event and crew were excellent too - the executive producer was way stoked with all camera work on the event. It was a fun gig and a great crew!

BTW, as DP for the event, my recommendation was for zooms on every single RED camera - Optimo 12x and Angenieux 25-250 on all cameras needing long focal length, and Nikon short to mid-length zooms on the jib, Steadicam, and all shoulder held cameras. It was a good example of a production where zooms were far and away the best choice, thus we used absolutely no primes for the production. Zooms were definitely the right tool for the job.

I love using primes wide open for shallow DOF when it is the best choice for a production, or portion thereof, but I always try to analyze what the best lens for a production is and go with that - and often, at least in the genres I shoot, the answer to that question is that a zoom is best.

Ciao!

Great to hear that Steve, I know that was a big accomplishment and I'm happy for you, and proud of Pamala's Photography progress, I just wish I could have accompany the two of you, I love Manilla, as I do love the rest of ASIA

ciao

Tom Lowe

03-21-2009, 03:36 PM

Steve Gibby

03-21-2009, 04:15 PM

Gibby, have you shot on Red One with some of the nice VR Nikon zooms or Canon IS lenses? I was curious to know whether their image stabe works while shooting video?

I had a chance to shoot some stills with a newer Canon EF lens with image stabe, and frankly, I was blown away by how well it worked. Not sure if it can work like that with video, though.

I have some good Nikon VR zooms, but I haven't tested them using the VR function. Hopefully the new RED Nikon smart mount for Epic and Scarlet will power and enable all functions of the Nikon lenses - and Canon for the Canon mount. I'm sure the electronic functions of the new RED Electronic Lenses will talk with the new RED mount.

It will be very interesting to see to what extent the new smart mounts enable features when shooting motion footage. I'd suspect RED has some surprises up their sleeves on that...

OptiTek

03-21-2009, 05:50 PM

Breathing has always been an issue. 40 years ago it wasn't a major issue, it was just a way of life... Many of the cine zooms and latter model primes have designs to minimize breathing. The way a lens breathes will lend a certain aesthetic to what you're shooting, it can be desirable or not. It can be downright annoying too.

.
Sorry Jeff,
40 years is taking it a little too far back.
The first non breathing zoom is the 12x Optimo-5-7 years back?
Before it all zooms breathe like M**F**
Primes-Cooke S4 and MP- UPs breathe quite a bit as well-depending on the FL.
I agree that the style changed- but a lot of it had to do with the "rental culture" where rental houses bought whatever was hot at the time regardless of the price so they get ROI quickly before the market is saturated and rental prices go down.
This model does not apply here as most redusers are owner-operators.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that for a professional creating beautiful images is not impaired by details like breathing or image shift...:)
Jacek Zakowicz-OptiTek.org

Jeff Kilgroe

03-21-2009, 06:14 PM

Sorry Jeff,
40 years is taking it a little too far back.
The first non breathing zoom is the 12x Optimo-5-7 years back?

Er.. Angenieux and others had non-breathing designs before the 24-290 or at least designs that were engineered to reduce the amount of breathing. Cooke took great strides with their 20-100 design and even more so with the 18-100 update to greatly reduce the amount of perceptible breathing. The 18-100 design was created when... '72? And it breathes by far less than most any stills zoom I'm aware of. It's practically a non-breathing design compared to the RED 18-50.

All I was saying is that lens designs with at least some thought or effort to minimize the amount of breathing, mostly with zooms, have been around for many years. When I threw 40 years out there as an arbitrary number, I was just saying that back then breathing wasn't an issue simply because there was little or no effort made in the lens designs of the time to address breathing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that for a professional creating beautiful images is not impaired by details like breathing or image shift...:)
Jacek Zakowicz-OptiTek.org

I completely agree. :)

However, breathing is an issue today simply because the technology and know-how exists to make lenses that virtually eliminate this effect. We can all argue or agree that 2K is plenty of resolution for any professional creating beautiful images or that S35 is a large enough format. It's just one more thing that people like to concern themselves over. ...Because they can.

Scott Roberts

03-21-2009, 08:03 PM

What is lens breathing? And, how do the Red cameras address dust entering the camera and potentially getting on the sensor when lenses are changed? Do they have a dust reduction system like current DSLR still cameras?

Valeriu Campan

03-21-2009, 08:52 PM