Why has nobody brought out a 2K HVX alternative ?

[RayFrisby]

Ok this has been on my mind for some time; and after Peter Jackson's comment today about outputting at 2K for film release the only reason I can come up with is such a camera would sink all their other products dead in the water.


Apart from the Red which I'm sure we all agree is a great achievement no other manfacturer has stepped up to the mark and produced a viable 2k alternative to the HVX with interchangeable lenses.

I understand that such a camera may be more expensive than the HVX but even at say 15,000 with a basic lense it would still be within reach of the indi-low budget film maker.

I own a HVX and really like the image it produces but the 1/3 inch sensor and lack of changeable lense coupled with low light performance (stops) is becoming an issue.



I know the pocket Red is on the way but I'm going to risk some flack by saying I dont see it having many of the features of the HVX; and is probably not aimed at the same market in the first place.

It may well be 2K and have interchangeable lenses but I see it as being a run and gun documentary style camera rather than an indi digital film camera.


The reason I say this is if it is a pocket camera, then the form factor will make it difficult to incorporate all these elements into a small body. (EVF, ND Filters, Balanced XLR's etc..) (Not impossible just difficult !).

Also when working on set; or for clients, a small pocket camera no matter how good will raise questions from those who dont know how good this camera may be.


Considering all the HVX's, Canon, Sony, JVC and other 1/3' cameras sold every year surely a workable 2K alternative to any one of these with interchangeable lenses and one or two more stops would be a winner

Anyway this is meant to promote discussion, it is not set in stone!
What do you guys think ?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

u said it! its because they know if they put out a 2k camera at the prices we are now getting accustom too (aka RED or cheaper), then they will in fact sink all the other products.. Being the lesser quality MUCH MUCH MUCH more expensive cameras. I think a lot of companies are holding out as long as possible about making any announcements. I bet anything the panasonics and the sonys have come up with something by now.. but we wont know.. They are waiting to see when the RED camera starts shipping...Even still... who knows.. they might not be able to produce such a camera at such low prices.. they have too much overhead!.. they are just straight up screwed imho

[Sean]

I guess why sell anything for less until you HAVE to. Maybe until Red is on the market and has proven itself, it will still pay dividends for a company like Panasonic to keep prices up and the technology trickling in a controlled flow. It's gamble though...because by the time Panasonic follows suit, most of their potential customers will have bought from new companies.

[Petr Dvorak]

SI 2K is already here, regular or mini

[RayFrisby]

Hi Hawaj ! Im not sure but I think the SI 2K is more in the Red's price range when you factor in drives, computer and lense your prob looking at 20K plus. I'm not sure about this so if anybody knows for sure please feel free !
I think the HVX workflow is probably more in line with the Red's; also the SI's form factor seems quiet different from the HVX and other 1/3' cameras. Not that this is bad but I think the technology is there to produce a HVX replacement today. It would be great to have a camera that can shoot 2k to disc, flash, whatever today.

[donatello b]

doesn't SONY have a XDcam EX coming out with 1/2" CCD's and is more the size of HVX ..

what about canon XL H1 with interchangeable lens ....

i don't think you are going to see 2k because sony, panasonic, JVC and others big money revenue isfrom TV and that is HD not 2k ...

[Joel Kaye]

1080P and 2k aren't that far apart in resolution - a couple hundred lines. Sounds to me you're real issue is the 1/3" chip. Sony's got a 1/2" chip. Silicon Imaging has a super fast lens that looks like 35mm at F4 when it's wide open.

The Canon XLH1 is the best thing under 10K in terms of straight up picture quality and low light performance... and it has interchangable lenses. (I'm just not sure what you can change them to).

I think the thing stopping the other manufacturers is the chip size and the way they stratify their products so professionals pay through the nose.

[Poi Boy]

I think the big guys make the BIG money on consumer cams and eng cams. Red isn't going to effect those markets that much for a while because those markets don't care about anything over 1080 and they want auto everything funtionality. It will take some time for the big dogs to respond.
Aloha
-A

[PaulClements]

Why bring out a 2k HVX alternative? Hydra from Reel Stream will make the HVX into a 2k camera with 444 colour and 60fps with increased latitude when it's released.

Given Andromeda took the DVX from 7 to 9.5 stops I dare say you'll see a similar jump in the HVX.

[RayFrisby]

Hi Paul ! I looked at the Hydra and it seems like the benifits it (Andromeda) gave the DVX will not be as great for the HVX. Your also stuck with the stock lense unless you use an 35mm adaptor which I'm not too keen on.
Donatello I think the XL H1 is more an Eng camera than indi film cam, sharper image but seems a tad too videoish, for me anyway.

I know others may not agree but I really would love to see the new Red Mini take on the HVX;
With a modular design to allow it be added too much like the Red only 2K with interchangeable lense (one that can take affordable alternatives and some form of professional lense too) also a greater dynamic range.

I was thinking something about the size of the Canon XHA1 even smaller. Imagine a body that is the EVF with room for attachments; and just like the Red you can add to it as you go.

I guess the main thing for a camera in the price range would be to incorporate features (or at least allow them to be added) such as LCD, Focus assist, ND's , balanced audio, zebras etc...

Now something like this for under 15,000 and its game over for the other small 1/3' indi cameras.

[donatello b]

" something like this for under 15,000 and its game over for the other small 1/3' indi cameras"

15,000 or 12,000 or 10,000 whatever price there will be many that cannot afford it ... camera's priced in the 2500 -4500 range is a HUGE market ..

[RayFrisby]

I agree Donatello there will always be somebody who cant afford this price.

But for first time directors and low budget productions under say 150,000 the market is quiet large.

From my point of view the 1/3 ' sensor, interchangeable lense and low light are the real issues for small indi feature production on the HVX or similar camera (script and acting aside).

Its also true to say the real cost of the camera is not just the camera itself but, lens/s, power supply, protection, monitoring, remotes, tripods, 35mm adaptors etc.
At least with the tripod and monitors etc you can upgraded them as you need them.

I have already invested aprox 11,000 Euro in my HVX (camera accessories, cards, P2 store etc) and while a great camera I still think Red could mop the floor in this market with a 2K HVX replacment aimed at say half the price of the Red one.
Its the hidden (whispered) costs that jack up the price.

At least with the Red all your accessories are priced and available as part of a package, not so with other cameras although Panasonic seem to be getting the idea with their HPX500 packages.

[Jeremy Torrie]

We're very close to making a decision on whether we're going to go with the SI-2K for one or more features this summer. Of course we want Red but the wait appears to be worthwhile.

Ari and the guys have been very helpful with questions and like the Red folks are listening closely.

We did pickups on a feature we shot on Super 16 and used our HVX in midday sun and it held up very well in 720P and it is difficult to tell it from the S16 apart.

That said, with our new features we're wanting to increase resolution and dynamic range and the SI appears to be the only existing camera that can do that.

The other thing to consider is the HPX2000. It is supposed to have the AVC Intra codec available as an option in July and that would be a great alternative (albeit 27,000 without HD VF or glass). I've read the info on this codec and if it in fact does rival D5 this is something to be reckoned with.

[ColinSmith]

What strikes me with the low budget excitement about the HV20 is that you could probably rip off the lens, autofocus and auto exposure, build in a single fixed lens and a 35mm adaptor system, and put a Nikon mount on it for about the same (low) cost.
Ok, all your exposure control would be manual stuff on the "outside"..... but still..... would seem to need very little R&D beyond what has been done already...... of course, the market killer thing comes in.....

[PaulClements]

I was thinking about that too Colin, for the price of the HV20, rip out the outer body, make something that has nikon/pl mount, replace all the buttons, stick on a universal output such as Firewire 800 so you can record to standard media, rip off the viewfinder and replace with a plug for offboard monitoring or red's evf, install software an luts to bypass the incamera compression and grab directly from the board (ala andromeda/hydra) and improve the fps and colourspace on it.

If you could do all this and mass produce it then you could probably sell to that 2.5-4k pricerange and make a fair bit of cash in the process.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Hi Paul ! I looked at the Hydra and it seems like the benifits it (Andromeda) gave the DVX will not be as great for the HVX. Your also stuck with the stock lense unless you use an 35mm adaptor which I'm not too keen on.


Plus you have to be teathered to a computer to record....
We have dismissed this alternative all together.



I know others may not agree but I really would love to see the new Red Mini take on the HVX;
Now something like this for under 15,000 and its game over for the other small 1/3' indi cameras.

I think this is what RED is going after.....
A smaller form camera that will only use SLR lenses (no PL mount)
A 2K chip camera that will be able to use all the RED accessories...
Batteries, drives, etc...and be priced at about $7,500

[donatello b]

once 2000-3000+ reds hit the streets those that have a budget (say above 75k maybe as low as 50k ?) should not have a problem finding camerapersons with a RED that will work for low $$ so why use a 1/3 " CCD camera when for a little more $$ you can get 4k

[Michael Schrengohst]

once 2000-3000+ reds hit the streets those that have a budget (say above 75k maybe as low as 50k ?) should not have a problem finding camerapersons with a RED that will work for low $$ so why use a 1/3 " CCD camera when for a little more $$ you can get 4k

2000-3000 RED's worldwide is not that much....
Look at all the HD cameras out right now and consider that
BetaSP cameramen are still making a living.
It is not so much that cameras but the qualities of the shooter,
experience and many other factors that equate into
the decisions of who gets hired. I get hired and sometimes have
to shoot DV tape. I would not be buying a RED unless I already
had a need and a customer base to support it....
I would not buy a RED and think that alone would get me work.

[RayFrisby]

Hi Red Guy ! I guess my real concern when it comes to the Red Mini is that it will just be too small to accomodate the same features as the HVX. Even if it is 2K, a pocket camera it is probably not what I'm after.

I might be eating my words when it arrives but a smaller 2K version of the red is what I'm after and it looks like I might be waiting for a while !

I'm looking at co-producing and directing a low budget indi feature next year, for subsequent film transfer and downresing for Broadcast.
2K gives me the best editing and output options with added resolution and dynamic range as Torrie mentioned.

We will be editing on the quad Pro Mac 2.66 in FCPS6 and as I am not an editor so any suggestions as to what the optimum 2K aquisition and workflow be.
I know apple pro res is 4:2:2 10 bit but I would like to output in 4:4:4 10 Bit if possible.
Any suggestions ?

[Petr Dvorak]

What strikes me with the low budget excitement about the HV20 is that you could probably rip off the lens, autofocus and auto exposure, build in a single fixed lens and a 35mm adaptor system, and put a Nikon mount on it for about the same (low) cost.
Ok, all your exposure control would be manual stuff on the "outside"..... but still..... would seem to need very little R&D beyond what has been done already...... of course, the market killer thing comes in.....


Yep, I was thinking about it from the very begining. It will be sweet, except that you will need to move sensor forward cause its kinda deep in the body of a camera :biggrin:

http://cweb.canon.jp/ivis/hv20/images/point-ki-hdimg2.jpg

[ColinSmith]

Wouldn't you keep the sensor way in there, maybe even way to the back, and build the whole optics / tube of the 35mm adapter inside the body? So where the lens filter is on the HV20 you have your Nikon mount......

[Tom Lowe]

What would be ideal to me would be the following specs in a camera priced around 10k:

True 1080p or 2K wavelet compressed onboard (under 30MB/s), downsampled at least a little from the sensor

35mm cine-sized sensor, for 35mm DOF

Mounts for cine lenses

At least 60fps overcranking

Harddrive or solid-state recording

Give me those and I will be happy.

[ColinSmith]

Hopefully the Red mini includes quite a lot of that list, although I am not sure on how likely a 35mm sensor is, given the engineering requirements it'd put on the rest of the camera.

Red has said before that a 2k option of the Red one is not worth while, as it would end up selling for near the same price as the 4k version. I guess that puts some definite limits on what might come on the mini..... but I'm sure we're all hoping ;-)

[Bruce Allen]

I was thinking about that too Colin, for the price of the HV20, rip out the outer body, make something that has nikon/pl mount, replace all the buttons, stick on a universal output such as Firewire 800 so you can record to standard media, rip off the viewfinder and replace with a plug for offboard monitoring or red's evf, install software an luts to bypass the incamera compression and grab directly from the board (ala andromeda/hydra) and improve the fps and colourspace on it.

If you could do all this and mass produce it then you could probably sell to that 2.5-4k pricerange and make a fair bit of cash in the process.

Well... HV20: $1000, 35mm adapter: $1000, my 720P LCD monitor < $1000...

If you want you can then go via $250 Blackmagic Intensity card output. If you use Cine mode and low contrast / sharpening settings, you do have a decent amount of latitude. Main problem is getting enough light to the camera to combat noise.


Wouldn't you keep the sensor way in there, maybe even way to the back, and build the whole optics / tube of the 35mm adapter inside the body? So where the lens filter is on the HV20 you have your Nikon mount......

Hmm, I'd rather go with keeping the camera intact. That way, when the HV30 comes out, I can move the 35mm adapter and LCD screen to the HV30, and use the HV20 as a B-camera for stuff that doesn't require DOF effects. Okay, well, I guess I'd need another LCD to check B-camera focus...

http://www.boacinema.com/projects/camera_tests/hv20/bruce_hv20_sgpro_and_monitor.jpg

This is what Matt Garrett and I tested last weekend. Nice results, coming soon. And yes, that's my homebuilt 720p monitor in the background! No, I'm not going to sell it with that soft case ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[PaulClements]

http://www.boacinema.com/projects/camera_tests/hv20/bruce_hv20_sgpro_and_monitor.jpg

This is what Matt Garrett and I tested last weekend. Nice results, coming soon. And yes, that's my homebuilt 720p monitor in the background! No, I'm not going to sell it with that soft case ;)


Nice Bruce, do make a fresh post for your footage once you upload it. I'd be very interested to see some more HV20 footage with an adapter.

Paul

[ColinSmith]

Hmm, I'd rather go with keeping the camera intact. That way, when the HV30 comes out, I can move the 35mm adapter and LCD screen to the HV30, and use the HV20 as a B-camera for stuff that doesn't require DOF effects.

Yup, but I was thinking more about how Canon could offer a HV20 with no auto features and a built in 35mm adapter (and probably an EOS mount with apature control on the body) for about the same cost as a standard HV20, if they wanted to

I'm not expecting it though ;-)

But then you'd not have to worry about buying a 35mm adapter, mounting, setup, fixing the camera focus and zoom.... it'd all be built in, and when you wanted an HV30, well the 35mm dof version would just cost the same anyway....

I'll be interested to see if the big name companies see enough indie market to try and move that way, with Red taking the high end (and maybe the middle with the Red mini).... will they step up and try and compete with an alternative, or drop out of the $3000+ market?

[Bruce Allen]

Yup, but I was thinking more about how Canon could offer a HV20 with no auto features and a built in 35mm adapter (and probably an EOS mount with apature control on the body) for about the same cost as a standard HV20, if they wanted to

I'm not expecting it though ;-)

But then you'd not have to worry about buying a 35mm adapter, mounting, setup, fixing the camera focus and zoom.... it'd all be built in, and when you wanted an HV30, well the 35mm dof version would just cost the same anyway....


I totally agree in principle! I have been waiting for them to do that for years too. I guess Red was just the first to do it...

I don't think they could offer it for the same price as the HV20, but maybe for the same price as an HV20 plus 35mm adapter. It would cost more because you'd either need some kind of fancy relay lens or a bigger sensor or a ground glass like the 35mm adapters.

Also, If there were no auto features, it would be totally unusable with the current LCD screen. The only reason that damn thing works at all if because the auto-focus is semi-decent. If you are going manual-focus, you really need a 720p screen, more would be even better... problem is that the smallest cheap-ish screen is the 5.6" Toshiba panel used in the Red, and that's an order of magnitude more expensive than what they're paying for their current screen.


I'll be interested to see if the big name companies see enough indie market to try and move that way, with Red taking the high end (and maybe the middle with the Red mini).... will they step up and try and compete with an alternative, or drop out of the $3000+ market?

Me too, me too. It is possible, let's hope it happens. Or if Silicon Imaging lowers their prices. I'd still buy a small Red though if it were similarly priced.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Tom Lowe]

That setup is great, Bruce.