to own or to rent red.. what would you prefer? [Archive]

Steve Gibby

06-07-2007, 08:41 PM

What do you guys think a RED and a prime lens set (and maybe one zoom lens) would rent for per day, with a tripod included of course?

Hard to say for sure yet. I know some rental companies have posted advance rates, but in truth, it's determined by principles of macro-economics and micro-economics.

Initially there will be a low supply/high demand scenario, which generates a relatively high price. As more cameras ship the rental market will correct itself to a moderate supply/high demand scenario, which should drop the rental rates a bit. It will take some time for it then to become a high supply/high demand scenario, thus lowering rates a bit more.

Translation = a RED package will probably rent for whatever the market will bear at the time and in the location it is rented in. The relationship and ratios of supply/demand will have a direct bearing on the current local rates.

I'm well aware of how equipment rental companies amortize out their investments to set rental rates, but IMO that paradigm will be affected to a certain extent by the significant numbers of small boutique company owners who will be renting themselves with their equipment , and in the process help set the going rate for RED One packages.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-07-2007, 08:53 PM

Yeah I was thinking of doing that myself. I mean my goal is to be a feature film director, and if I have to direct small projects I finance myself for $50,000 (and can make my money back) that's ok, but I think especially for the first few years, I'm going to need to supplement my income with something more every-day. A feature takes a lot of time where you don't have income coming in, besides investments. So it would be cool to rent my equipment and services and make a few bucks on the side.

I was looking and Birns and Sawyer charges like $1,850 per day for a good F900 package -- wow!! I was just hoping that my services as a camera operator with a full RED package would be at least $500 per day. That's not too shabby, better than gaffing for $50 per day or free, hehe.

Steve Gibby

06-07-2007, 09:31 PM

IMO you should be able to get a lot more than $500 per day for you + your RED One package.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-07-2007, 09:57 PM

That's what I thought, but I don't want to say something stupid and have people think, "No dude, you can't make that much," haha.

So if I'm renting myself as a camera operator with it, what are you thinking I should charge? What about a sliding scale where you charge more for one day shoots than for a five-day shoot, let's say. Like $1,000 for one day, or $800 per day for five days or more, etc.

Poi Boy

06-07-2007, 10:05 PM

As I have said before a red rental package will have a hefty premium for at least a year until the supply catches up. I'm guessing $1.5K/day.
Aloha
-A
As far as rent versus buy, kind of a silly question for this site would't you say ?

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-07-2007, 10:11 PM

Poi Boy

06-07-2007, 10:14 PM

Maybe that would be a good category to include on red user... a rental list.
Aloha
-A

Gavin Greenwalt

06-08-2007, 12:05 AM

Can we close this poll and open one not written in Yoda. I think I voted for "Rent" but I can't be sure, I might have just claimed to rape kittens.

Poi Boy

06-08-2007, 12:16 AM

The kittens had it coming...written in yoda, that is very funny.
Aloha
-A

johannperry

06-08-2007, 12:29 AM

So how would you say is the best way to find people who are interested in renting equipment like this? Set up a Website, do some advertising, that kind of thing? Through industry contacts maybe? Get to know some people who know you have a RED for rental.

the thing with camera rental is that there are pretty established methods of renting gear. Most production companies or cameramen want to go to a rental company where there is a whole list of extra gear that they can hire in addition to the camera depending on the size and complexity of the project. They also want transport, insurance and technical backup. They want an immediate replacement if things break too. If the hirer is shooting in Cambodia and needs an immediate replacement for a camera which is down it is on your head. A friend of mine who runs a large camera hire company has just had 3 HDX900 kits stuck in Iceland for a month because some bright spark didn't fill in a customs form properly. He has had a few problems replacing these cameras for other jobs. I don't want to put you off renting your gear out but you just need to think it through carefully. The world of dry hire is not always that simple and there are many hidden costs that you would need to look into and add to your buisness plan. That is why camera packages look expensive to hire, you are paying for the other costs of running a hire company too.

Roberto B

06-08-2007, 12:32 AM

Can we close this poll and open one not written in Yoda. I think I voted for "Rent" but I can't be sure, I might have just claimed to rape kittens.

The kittens had it coming...written in yoda, that is very funny.
Aloha
-A

eheheh.. i'm with you Mr. Poi.. eheheh.. yoda rocks.. and to own.. same way.. eheheh

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-08-2007, 12:37 AM

Yeah that's true for sure, I mean I would need to buy insurance on my equipment that is a definite, but that has to be done anyway. As for having extra equipment, that's why I want to have every lens available basically, not only because I know I'll want to use them for myself but because it'll be good to have in case they are needed on other shoots where professionals definitely expect them to have the necessary gear.

We will also have a full array of professional lighting equipment, so if they need to rent that equipment too it wouldn't be a problem. We intend to have a van (soon, but parking is an issue now; David is going to buy a house pretty soon and I have a condo, so my parking situation is limited) for transportation purposes, for our own shooting, so essentially I want to make sure that whatever equipment a professional is going to need, I have myself anyway. Granted if they want five REDs and a studio and all this kind of stuff, they're not going to rent from me. But if I'm offering basically 30-50% off normal rental prices from big companies I wouldn't think it'd be too difficult to find interested parties.

I think if you are renting equipment yourself you can't charge the same price as a big professional rental company because you're right, if I'm shooting a huge project, like a feature, in some other area of the world I'm going to go with a really reliable, established company. But for local jobs around here I wouldn't think it would be difficult to find a solid 5 days of work per month, anyway. I could be wrong, I have no idea, but I'm not expecting (or wanting) to rent my RED out very often, and I would always come with it if I did rent it out. Perhaps the best idea is to make sure if I did anything, David has his RED available that day so that if anything happened to mine an immediate replacement would be available. That would probably increase anyone's enthusiasm about working with my equipment (and with me). But it seems a given I should know how to work the RED I have and get the best out of it if I'm going to rent my services with the camera.

Good advice, though, and you're right a lot of extra considerations go into renting equipment. I don't want to start a rental company, that's not my interest in this business, but if it could be a way to supplement my income that would be nice, as a backup. I may never end up doing it, I am not sure, but knowing you have that ability is at least nice.

Gordon Prince

06-08-2007, 01:05 AM

eheheh.. i'm with you Mr. Poi.. eheheh.. yoda rocks.. and to own.. same way.. eheheh

Lol

Sure, some trues are still funny beyond yoda language. :umm: :usd: :innocent:

Paul Leeming

06-08-2007, 07:52 AM

Can we close this poll and open one not written in Yoda. I think I voted for "Rent" but I can't be sure, I might have just claimed to rape kittens.:):):)

...so, moving on to the actual question(!), I will own my two cameras and rent them out, using them to establish my film production and rental company here in Japan. The nice thing is that everyone who ordered early will have probably a six month head start minimum on the rest, which for me means that I have paid off my cameras and am making a profit by the time others can catch up and launch their own rental companies or supplement their rental equipment with Reds. What it ALSO means is six months' worth of EXPERIENCE shooting and using Red, which when I expand by buying more Reds with my profits means that I have already established credibility in the local market as being a company who knows Red better than anyone else, thus fulfilling the longer term idea of going with people who are reliable and know their stuff over the new startup (at that point).

It boils down to me being a startup early BUT having scarce hardware which people will prioritise over the experience aspect. By the time the hardware is not so scarce I WILL have the experience and thus alter my value from direct hardware to hardware plus credibility and a known quantity in the local industry. Finally, while I am a relatively quiet member of this board, I have absorbed an amazing amount of knowledge regarding Red that even someone coming in now and trying to read every post isn't likely to achieve in the timeframe needed to be fully competent (not to mention I'm in Japan so that adds another layer of difficulty for most non-native English speakers here!).

The final bit is that as well as renting out my equipment (you can see the full specs via my website if interested) I will of course be trying to make commercials, music videos, shorts and anything else that I can get paid to make here, all on the Red cameras that I already own, which means my outlay is substantially reduced to those who need to hire the equipment for such things. Again, it all adds quivers to the bow and brings me one step closer to my ultimate long term goal of becoming a feature film director down the line.

Cheers!

Paul

Eugene

06-08-2007, 11:28 AM

If you are like me (I live in the US and get paid in dollars) and think that the economy in the USA is headed for a recession startg this summer, then you might want to take out a big loan and buy that RED instead of renting. There could be big time inflation like there was in the 1970s after the Vietnam war (similar to the Iraq war which is putting the US in debt.) High oil prices and a housing bubble are hurting the economy. What ever happens with immigration will hurt to economy. (If 10 million people become citizens, they will want to be paid more once they have legal rights. If 10 million people are deported, there will be that many less consumers buying goods and services.)

Debt is a good hedge against inflation. So lets all go into debt. Don't think about renting vs. buying. Think of debt as a hedge agains inflation. If you have money, convert them to Euros. Hell, even converting them to pesos is a good idea.

For you europeans, put off buying a RED untill the dollar goes down in value another 30%. I think it will go down that far. Us Americans better hope the RED One comes out soon, so we can lock into a fixed rate loan before intrest rates rise.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-08-2007, 08:28 PM

I wouldn't be buying something expensive like that with a loan, definitely am purchasing outright with cash. I'm not a big fan of debt unless it's my home loan and in that case it's acceptable because the place is worth way more than what I paid for it given I've only owned it a year.

Paul -- that's an excellent strategy, and probably the plan (roughly) of many, many smart younger filmmakers. I mean, that's basically our plan too, buy the equipment we need, do projects for clients, and eventually hope to get into just feature films and not have to do many other projects besides whatever is next on the feature film slate.

Curran Giddens

06-09-2007, 05:07 AM

My answer to the poll would have to be:

I prefer to purchase RED myself, but have everyone else rent from me! :tongue:

I'm kidding. I want RED to sell tons of cameras. I can't stand watching anything shot on low-rez cameras. My biz plan is similar to Paul's too. I'm hoping to fetch top dollar on rental rates at first. Then start on my own projects when the market gets flooded.

Stephen Williams

06-09-2007, 05:43 AM

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-09-2007, 06:02 AM

I really doubt that. You're on the RED user forum, after all, most people posting here are posting here because they are so excited about the camera that they put reservations on it often before even seeing a finished product. This isn't like an indie filmmakers Website poll, it's a poll on the official forum for the RED camera, so it's not highly surprising that everyone here wants to own their own camera.

There are still only going to be about 3,000 RED One cameras out there after eight to nine months I would think. And many people here are from all over the world, so I think there will be plenty of rental demand, too. Not everyone really wants to put down $55,000 for the RED One package and a prime lens set, for instance.

Joel Kaye

06-09-2007, 06:29 AM

Hi,
Whats I find interesting here that everybody wants to own their own camera. Many of those owners would like to rent their cameras out. This survey indicates the demand for rental could be rather low.

Every little ad agency across America will start shooting commercials on RED in a year... but they won't own one. Music Videos and Commercials should be RED mania.

Roberto B

06-09-2007, 07:25 AM

Hi,

Whats I find interesting here that everybody wants to own their own camera. Many of those owners would like to rent their cameras out. This survey indicates the demand for rental could be rather low.

Stephenloooooooooool.. you made my day stephen.. actually, when i open this poll, i was thinking on you, david m., finner and the rest of your gang..

later, others like bruce added their name there.. but quite sincerely.. bruce is wrong.. he doesn't belong there.. and who knows if there are others with the wrong coordinates over your soup too.. your rental houses and their own personnel should be think to change their core business..

what about to create for once?.. maybe a workshop on scriptwriting?.. or.. directing actors?.. who knows if you won't find other skills beyond your show-off over the T stops vs. F stops brain-wash.. and related to any other expensive stuff around.. yes, because you looooooove expensive stuff.. especially that one that the others cannot buy.. till red came up (= your nightmare until you've moved to.. here)

MikeCurtis

06-09-2007, 09:35 AM

My $0.02: from a business perspective, own what cost justifies, rent the rest.

From a creative perspective, having the tools available to learn and improve your craft is of great value - an artist must be prolific in order to grow.

I'm buying to rent it out, in conjunction with other as-yet-to-be-announced services and products of my own...

-mike

Roberto B

06-09-2007, 10:00 AM

From a creative perspective, having the tools available to learn and improve your craft is of great value - an artist must be prolific in order to grow.

one of the reasons why i'm reader of this Mr. Curtis -- this is truly a real indy!

Stephen Williams

06-09-2007, 01:48 PM

one of the reasons why i'm reader of this Mr. Curtis -- this is truly a real indy!

Hi filmakers gang,

I like your signature with Jim's answer to my question, I think you missed the first bit of the answer!

Stephen

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-09-2007, 02:08 PM

Stephen Williams

06-09-2007, 02:21 PM

Yeah Mike that is a great point. Wait you are THE Mike from HDforindies? Awesome... your site is a great resource. I love reading it.

For me, it just makes sense to own a really great camera that I can play around with commonly. If I want to shoot for even 5-8 days per month, and sometimes I'll want to shoot for more than that, I'm going to have paid for the RED after a year anyway. Makes no sense to me to rent it at all.

Hi,

From experience I end up getting paid the same with or without supplying equipment. People always want a deal on equipment & then will complain about something to try and get a further reduction.

Stephen

Nook Kim

06-09-2007, 03:45 PM

Hi,

If I was renting my camera out, I would require the production have a proper
insurance that will cover the equipment. As for the cost, I'd guess it has to be
higher than $1000, at least, per day. Check how much rental houses charge
even for HVX200 or equivalents. You will like it.

If I was renting a Red w/ operator, I'd expect the operator to have a very solid
reel w/ at least 5 years of experience operating. If the person knows in's and
out's of the camera w/out much experience of operating, I'd rather have him
or her as my 1st AC or camera technician, in case the person doesn't have
qualified pulling skill.

Just to voice my opinion that renting out you and your camera might require
a bit more than just the equipment.

Regards,

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-09-2007, 03:53 PM

If that was the case, as far as it being a highly experienced production that would want a camera operator with years of experience, I would be fine just serving as a camera tech. and watching over the equipment, hauling it around, changing lenses, basically I could be a 2nd A.C. in that case. I mean I am not going to be all "screw you if I can't be the DP you don't get my RED," haha, no way. Frankly if I had no experience, what better way to gain experience than to have the equipment that a production wants and have them make me like a 2nd A.C., something not too important, so I can gain some experience and knowledge plus making money? Sounds ok to me. Anyway I'm primarily interested in directing so if I did this it would be to supplement my income during slow stretches; I wouldn't mind having a very low position on the shoot so long as I get paid fairly for my equipment. If that's the case I don't require payment for my time. I mean if I made $1,000 from my equipment for a day and did nothing more than babysit it, but got to be on set, etc., that's ok by me...

Alexander Nikishin

06-09-2007, 10:26 PM

I would be fine just serving as a camera tech. and watching over the equipment, hauling it around, changing lenses, basically I could be a 2nd A.C. in that case.

Not to pick on you or anything, but a 2nd only fetches the lenses.

The 1st and DP are the only ones who should physically touch the camera and or swap lens.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-09-2007, 10:45 PM

Alexander Nikishin

06-09-2007, 10:52 PM

Well if it's my camera, guess who gets to do that? This industry is full of funny little rules, but let me tell you most people don't follow them. A grip is not supposed to plug in cables, either, right? Well I worked on a professional shoot with Cybill Shepherd and guess what? I plugged in cables. I moved lights. I moved equipment. I did whatever was necessary. I laugh at people who follow rigid rules in an industry that is supposed to be an art form and a business -- there's no reason for many of these rules either artistically or commercially.

If someone wants to rent my RED, which will inevitably be cheaper than anyone else will be charging because I can afford not to seek top dollar and be selective on my projects, then they will play by my rules. That means it's my camera, I touch the lenses, I put the camera away, etc. Those are the rules. If someone would prefer to do it their way, they can pay 50% more to rent a RED elsewhere. If they don't mind letting me change my own lenses for my own camera, something I'll be quite good at doing, then they can save hundreds per day and rent from me.

It's that simple. He who has the equipment makes the rules.

There are reasons for all those "little rules".

Those rules were created to speed up the process of tasks such as changing a lens. Also, a DP usually builds a bond of trust with his/her 1st. That bond enables the DP to not have to worry about fudging up on a lens change or not setting the iris properly, or the initial focus.

Although making a movie is an art form, there is nothing artistic about swapping out a lens....You swap it, and you swap it right, that's that.

Also Jonathan, it's people like you who undercut and cause this industry to plummet to less than minimum wage rates for positions and camera packages that used to pay well. I'd thinnk twice about contributing to the undercutting of your fellow industry workers.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-09-2007, 11:03 PM

haha, wait so I'm responsible for what again? Bad wages? I don't think so. I came into this industry noticing nobody gets paid anything for the low level jobs, which is a shame, but that's because so many people are willing to work for pennies per day or free. I mean when you have grips and gaffers who work for $50 per day and do a good job, why pay? Just hire one experienced person who knows everything about the nicknames of lights, how to position them, how to plug in cables, etc., and hire a few minimally competent people who are eager to learn and pay them basically nothing, the head of the department can teach them what to do easily. It works even on professional shoots. There's no fine art form to moving a light or setting up a light. If you have a good attitude and know the basics of safety, which can be explained quickly, then you're a good grip basically. It's pretty easy to learn everything about that field in maybe 10 hours of actual work. How to wrap cables, how to hold the lights, how to move the C-stands properly, etc. Actors work for nearly nothing much of the time, too, even good ones, which I find amazing. It's probably the only industry I can really think of where so many people work below minimum wage.

A lot of rules make good sense, that's why they are there, other rules maybe had their place in the past, or still have their place on a massive set, but have no reason for existing whatsoever on an independent set where people have to wear more than one hat. You don't need a 2nd A.C. at all on many shoots, the 1st A.C. can do what is necessary. That's how several shoots I've been on operated. Then usually one of the PAs or a grip or someone else would mark the slate, which is also an incredibly easy job after about 15 minutes of explanation than anyone with even any education in film should understand. Paying someone $500 per day to do something like that is the height of waste.

Maybe you took my comments the wrong way, but I'm free to do with my RED what I wish, and I would much rather charge $1,000 per day for the camera and every available lens, which I will own and may as well bring to the shoots, on a project I really think is fun or has potential than $1,500 per day for a shoot I think is garbage and the director is an ass. If someone came to me and they said, "Jonathan we're really desperate here, we have this great project, we really want to film it with the RED, but our budget is tiny and basically, if you could read the script, if you think it's worthy and would give us a bit of a price break, that'd be amazing." I'd read the script and if I didn't like it, "Well, I really can't do that, because if I do that for one person pretty soon I have to do it for everyone. You understand, right?" Or if I really like it, "Well I need to be paid something for my time and trouble, of course, but how about $500 per day?" What do I care? It's my camera, if I want to help someone out who is making something I deem very worthy, I reserve the right to make exceptions. Even big equipment companies do that. I've heard stories from professionals about that, where Kodak believed in something a young filmmaker was doing enough to give them free film stock to use for it. It builds a relationship that pays off in the future. You have a narrow point of view if you think the best thing is for everyone to charge as much as possible so we all get rich fast or something. I won't give my camera away to use for free, that just ain't going to happen, not even for my best friend to be honest. If he wanted to make me a high position on a project I thought was great, I'd be willing to use my camera to gain experience, but I will not just give away services for free. That being said, if I think it's valuable building a great relationship with another professional and renting them my RED at a discounted rate would do that, why wouldn't I? It makes business sense for later.

Alexander Nikishin

06-09-2007, 11:18 PM

Jonathan, what state and city do you live in might I ask?

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-09-2007, 11:25 PM

I'm not really sure why that is relevant, but I'm in Los Angeles, CA.

I'm really not sure why you jumped down my throat about this, though, if you think my intention is to just undercut everyone who is renting the RED as a business, that is absolutely not the case. To be honest with you I don't know how often I'll even rent out my camera. It really depends on a lot of factors. It might be "by connection only," i.e. only to close friends I know who have projects I'm interested in, or I might have plenty of projects of my own by the point the RED arrives (that is the goal) so I'd only ever shoot my own projects with it. That is really the ideal, because I'd prefer not to have to be on other peoples' shoots in various capacities other than what I want to do, which is directing. But as a backup source of income it seems like something to consider and I know I can make better offers than a big equipment rental house with high overhead.

There's something seriously wrong with a business plan where you rent out your requipment for 20-30 days and you have 100% of your money back. I mean I don't know what's wrong with this industry but cars don't work that way, computers don't work that way, nothing works that way. It's bogus. I saw that Birns & Sawyer rents an XL-1S for $225 a day -- that camera is a POS, I have one laying around here and am just trying to sell it for like $2,000 with case, with extra battery, with light, etc., so basically 8-9 days of renting it and that's $2,000. Huh? I'm confused how you could charge that. It's worth like $35 per day renting, maybe $50 would still be fair. No more.

Alexander Nikishin

06-09-2007, 11:48 PM

Jonathan, I just believe in fair market value, not under-cutting.

You preach your business plan as do I.

I'd imagine that I wouldn't get as many equipment rentals as a low price competitor would, but it would honestly give me peace of mind to know that I'm not contributing to what in my opinion is wrong.

Honestly though, I'm not too concerned about under-cutting competitors because I'm usually called upon to do a project due to a referral or from a client who is familiar with or has seen my work.

At the end of the day, I just say do what feels right and live with it, just be prepared to hear other opinions on your practices as would be expected.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-10-2007, 12:03 AM

Well, sure, and I actually value your input as well, even if it doesn't seem like it, but isn't part of the mechanism of capitalism having competing companies offer consumers a better deal? I mean obviously at some point price wars damage all of the companies involved (not so much the consumer directly), but all I'm saying is that if someone thinks that fair market value for the RED, a prime lens set, two zoom lenses, a 300mm lens, and a tripod is $2,000 rental per day, I'd have to say I think they're crazy. That's only about $75,000 in equipment or something, and at that rate you'd have all your money back in less than 35 days of rentals. Market value is established by the overall market as far as supply and demand right? I guess if you can get that much money for it, go for it, I don't see why not, but if I'm satisfied making a bit less than that I'll offer less and hope for more clients.

The fact is because of your contacts and your skills (I assume you are much more skilled and experienced than I am), you will inevitably have a huge advantage over someone like me, so I'd almost have to offer lower prices than you just to compete because you're offering potentially a more reliable, experienced service. It's like the new guy in town has to offer something the established company does not, otherwise there's no point really in competing. Plus I only will have my own camera, most real rental companies will have many, so even if I was offering a great deal I can only potentially rent one camera at a time. As I have no interest in going into the rental market, I can't see buying more cameras to rent out either, that's just not what I'm interested in doing.

But I see your point from one perspective, yet I also think the beauty of capitalism is that competition helps consumers in the end.

Alexander Nikishin

06-10-2007, 12:41 AM

I completely understand your situation.....

All that worries me though, and what I meant by under-cutting is to offer the package you stated at a price like $500 per day.

That in my opinion is much too low and almost defeats the purpose of even purchasing a RED camera for business or for pleasure.

If your intention in purchasing a RED is to get your foot in the door and make some connections, well guess what, your target crowd isn't a production who can only afford to pay $500 for an entire RED package.

People who put together low-ball productions stay stuck in low-ball productions. If you hold value to your work and your equipment, you price it right and move up instead of befriending the likes of rip off artists.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-10-2007, 12:56 AM

haha, well if like you said $500 is way way too low for the package, guess what? I won't ever rent it that low ;) Don't worry about it. I just don't know what the fair market value of the package is right now, but once that is established I'll have a better idea. If the fair market value was, say, $1,800 per day for all of that, and I offered $1,500 a day because I'm not a fully equipped rental company with backup cameras and years of experience in the business, I don't think I'd be undercutting, I think I'd be giving a price break based on not offering as good of service. Would that make sense, or would that still be undercutting to you? Just curious.

Alexander Nikishin

06-10-2007, 01:05 AM

There's no harm in competitive pricing, that sounds about right to me.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-10-2007, 01:12 AM

I see more what you are saying now. You just don't think it's right for someone to offer such a ridiculous deal that it basically undermines what everyone else is doing. That makes sense to me, but it'd be insanity for someone to offer like a 60-70% price break on equipment rentals wouldn't it? I mean unless they absolutely didn't care about money, in which case I don't understand what they'd even be doing renting it out at all...

Mark K.

06-10-2007, 01:31 AM

There are companies who will be renting Red far more affordably than that (http://www.rubbermonkey.co.nz/rental_catalogue.asp) And I'm not so sure that $1,500-$2,000 per day is a "fair" rental rate for such a camera. The local cameramen that I know (guys working with $30,000-50,000 broadcast cameras) hire themselves and their cameras out at about $400-$500 a day. Red is a similarly priced piece of equipment that requires a similarly skilled operator why shouldn't the price therefore be similar?

Because it's a more powerful piece of equipment? That defeats the purpose of Jim and the team bringing the camera in at this pricepoint in the first place in my opinion. I personally am not going to be in a position to buy my own Red One for some time, however at the $1,110 weekly rental price that places like Rubber Monkey are offering, I can probably find the funds to shoot an independent feature film - that will be the beauty of Red, the ability it offers poor independents like myself to bypass the very expensive (technical) entry-point to filmmaking.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-10-2007, 01:43 AM

Well, yeah, I mean for me too that was what excited me about RED -- being able to buy the camera and shoot independent features for much cheaper than if I had to shoot with 35mm film, or shoot with 16mm film which to me is not what I want to be doing quality-wise or otherwise. So it's exciting to have a camera that would be capable of such high quality at a relatively affordable price.

$1,110 weekly rental seems unbelievably cheap to me. I'm not sure many people will be renting their cameras for that price. Who knows. What's funny is some of their other prices aren't really that good. A Sennheiser ME66 mic with boom for $135 per week? Just buy it. That's not a solid deal. But the RED for $1,110 a week is an absolute steal. Though I'm not sure what that comes with, because if that's only the camera body and all other accessories are rented separately, like recording media, batteries, lenses, tripod, etc. then what I'm saying is not far off. The camera body is actually a tiny portion of what I'd be offering. I'd be offering that plus an electronic viewfinder plus an LCD screen plus the battery kit plus a high-end tripod plus a prime lens set, two zoom lenses (18-50, 50-150), and a 300mm lens. At that point the $17,500 body is about a quarter of the offering. There's no way all of that would rent for less than $1,000 per day.

Mark K.

06-10-2007, 03:33 AM

Well those lens options increase the cost of thing certainly (that's a lot of lenses!), but would you honestly turn down $1,500-2,000 for a week from someone who just wanted to use the basic Red setup with the two zoom lenses?

Assuming you didn't have anything else more profitable booked for that week (or two) - that's still $1,500-$2,000 in the bank, for renting out $39,000 worth of equipment for seven days. And that's a pretty good week for a freelance cameraman I would've thought.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-10-2007, 03:49 AM

$1,500 to $2,000 for seven full days? No way dude, not even close. Maybe twice that, maybe not, especially if it means I have to be on set with my equipment for that time to make sure it's not damaged, not stolen, etc. (I don't trust anyone else with my equipment who I don't know, unless it was a much bigger production with a reputable filmmaking crew). I make easily that much money off investments without even leaving my house, I don't need the extra money that badly. I'd rather be shooting my own projects. I cannot ever imagine a situation where that low of a rental price would be useful to me.

Why wouldn't I just post flyers, "I was going to rent my RED to someone for $1,500 for seven days, which I realize is cheaper than an XL-2 rents for at Birns & Sawyer, but I decided not to do it so you can rent my RED for $3,000 just call 1-800-IM-BROKE."

Even with two zoom lenses, you're looking at a $42,000 package or so. I spent $35,000 and don't have the 50-150mm zoom on order of course because it isn't available for order yet, so that'll push things past $40,000. To rent the camera for an entire seven-day week for just $1,500 means it will take me a half-year to pay for the equipment without even paying myself a salary for that time I'm on sets. Plus I'd probably have to cover my own insurance costs if I'm renting to productions that can't afford to pay much money for the equipment, then there's the cost of gas, the time I'd put into maintaining the camera equipment, cleaning lenses, etc. Any technical issues I'd have to deal with also.

If I was desperate, I would do it, sure, or if there was a special arrangement I'd figure something out. For instance, you have a great script, you badly want to direct your great script, I read your script and agree it really is great and I want to make it happen. I have boom mics, I have lights, I have a powerful editing setup, I have the RED with all the lenses you could need, and I strike a deal with you to film your movie for free, so long as I get 25% of the future profits. That kind of arrangement would be... unique, and I'd be more likely to do that than rent my equipment for too cheap. At least that way, I'm putting myself in a situation where I feel closely involved with a project I, too, now believe in.

Stephen Williams

06-10-2007, 03:58 AM

$1,110 weekly rental seems unbelievably cheap to me. I'm not sure many people will be renting their cameras for that price. Who knows. .

Hi,

Rubbermonkey is an established rental house, the cost of a RED body is in line with its purchase price relative to the Viper thats also listed. I notice the Super Panther III dolly is far lower priced, relative to its cost than the Red body.

The rental business has never been easy, I don't think that will change with the revoloution.

Stephen

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-10-2007, 04:23 AM

The body itself rented at $1,110 isn't unreasonable. After all, the body is just $17,500, it shouldn't rent for more than $1,110, really. That's perfectly reasonable. But if you are renting a tripod with it, which is almost never included in a base price like that, two batteries and a charger, two hard drives for recording footage, eight lenses, EVF, LCD screen, etc., then absolutely you're looking at more than triple that price.

Stephen Williams

06-10-2007, 04:40 AM

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-10-2007, 04:45 AM

Right, which makes sense. I mean that company seems like it'd be a very good rental company, prices look much more reasonable than most rental companies I've seen.

There are two reasons I'm a buy-not-rent person. First, I hate renting things, always have. It's sometimes a bad habit, because I end up buying more DVDs than I really need or want, but I've managed to strike a fair balance by buying used DVDs so I don't feel so bad about expanding my collection ;) I just love owning what I want to use, so I can not have to go through any hassles at all, just go out and use it. It's a philosophy my business partner David shares. Second, the reason I'm able to have that philosophy is because I have the money not to have to rent most things within a reasonable price range. I believe that over time, you pay a lot more to rent something than to buy it, especially because if you shot with the RED, let's say, for just one year, you had only 50 shooting days out of the whole year, and then you sold all your equipment, you'd probably lose only about 10-15% of what you paid for it all. Even if that was $7,000 to $10,000, that's still better than renting all of that equipment for 50 days. To me, renting seems the solution when you absolutely cannot plunk down that much money at once because you don't have it. If you get a $10,000 project you can shoot in a day or two, like an ad or music video, you rent the equipment you need, the location(s) you need, and get the crew together, you spend maybe $6,000 on the budget, then you still make $4,000 for yourself. If you have little funds of your own, that's a great way to make money on a per-project basis. But to me, it just makes sense that if you have the money, you should buy the tools. Not only does it give you flexibility and save money over time, but it also gives you a potential source of income renting what you have to other people who need it short-term.

Mark K.

06-10-2007, 05:45 AM

$1,500 to $2,000 for seven full days?.... I make easily that much money off investments without even leaving my house, I don't need the extra money that badly. I'd rather be shooting my own projects. I cannot ever imagine a situation where that low of a rental price would be useful to me.

...To rent the camera for an entire seven-day week for just $1,500 means it will take me a half-year to pay for the equipment without even paying myself a salary for that time I'm on sets. Plus I'd probably have to cover my own insurance costs if I'm renting to productions that can't afford to pay much money for the equipment, then there's the cost of gas, the time I'd put into maintaining the camera equipment, cleaning lenses, etc. Any technical issues I'd have to deal with also.

If I was desperate, I would do it, sure, or if there was a special arrangement I'd figure something out. For instance, you have a great script, you badly want to direct your great script, I read your script and agree it really is great and I want to make it happen. I have boom mics, I have lights, I have a powerful editing setup, I have the RED with all the lenses you could need, and I strike a deal with you to film your movie for free, so long as I get 25% of the future profits. That kind of arrangement would be... unique, and I'd be more likely to do that than rent my equipment for too cheap. At least that way, I'm putting myself in a situation where I feel closely involved with a project I, too, now believe in.

Jonathan, if you consider 6 months to be an unreasonable amount of time to pay off $40,000+ worth of personal equipment - please, PM me on how you do it!

I'm working off my understanding of freelance cameramen who own and operate their own cameras (TV broadcast cameras of a similar cost to a basic Red One). If you're earning $1,500-$2,000 a week just off investments then you're in a whole other league, financially, to any cameraman I know. If you're in that comfortable a position then certainly, pick and choose your jobs. Most of the guys I know aren't in a position where they (and their cameras) are being hired 50 weeks a year.

What I meant to get across in my earlier post is that I imagine Red will really open up doors for people like me, production-wise, because freelance cameramen (working with cameras of equivalent cost to Red One) do charge $1,500-$2,000 a week for their camera and their services - because of that, Red will allow people to shoot cinema-release quality footage at a cost far below that of any other current cinema cameras.

And as for your idea about shooting for that price only if you get 25% of net profits, I'm not aware of ANY cameraman working out that sort of deal for themselves. Though again, if you can do it - more power to you mate! I'm just not sure your expectations are particularly realistic

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-10-2007, 05:52 AM

I would hardly be a cameraman if I'm supplying all of the equipment to an entire shoot. In that case it's likely I would take on the entire cost of the project and make myself a producer, if the person had the script and wanted to direct the project, but I really don't have much of an interest in producing at this time.

I just don't think you're going to find a lot of people willing to rent a full complement of RED equipment for $1,500-2,000 for a seven-day period. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe for five days, but I've rarely heard of seven days of consecutive shooting professionally; the unions don't allow that from my understanding, not that I care about the unions because I'll probably do non-union work, hehe, but still.

I mean for someone to rent themselves and their full camera package for $1,500 for seven days, ouch man, $200 per day? That's all they are worth with at least $40,000 in equipment? I doubt that very much. I'd personally pay a good DP $300-500 per day to film any professional project I do, and wouldn't expect them to bring any equipment, just their skills. Granted a DP is probably more experienced than a camera operator, but the point is, $200 per day for a RED with two zoom lenses even and a full filming kit (batteries, media, EVF, etc.) plus the person to professionally operate all of that... seems pretty low to me.

Maybe I'm wrong, and people here are free to correct me, because I really don't know, but from what everyone else here was saying that isn't going to be the case very often.

That being said, I think you're right that the RED will reduce the cost of filmmaking for smaller independents and allow them to get amazing, better-than-film quality for a much, much lower cost. So you are definitely going to have more opportunities to film better quality stuff in the future, no doubt about that! It's an exciting time.

Mark K.

06-10-2007, 06:10 AM

Not all of the equipment, just the camera (by which I mean: lens, batteries, and recording media - the stuff you need to actually capture the footage). Things like tripods, dolleys, lights, sound equipment are a seperate matter. And that rate probably wouldn't be for the cameraman's services, most likely the production's DP would handle the camera. If you're not willing to rent the camera without yourself present to handle it, then I don't know, that would be a seperate matter for whoever hired you.

And I'm sorry, I meant a 5-6 day working week. Maybe I'm wrong though, just because a Red One costs the same price as a TV broadcast camera doesn't make it the same as a TV broadcast camera. It is a far more capable piece of equipment, maybe that's worth a premium... I don't know. Though I would have thought that the rental cost of such a camera should simply be relative to its purchase cost.

Curran Giddens

06-10-2007, 08:02 AM

How much do you guys think I could get per week for a long-term loan (3-4 months) to a rental shop?

I will have everything EXCEPT the Prime lenses, 300mm zoom, EVF, and flash recording options.

I will have RED-RAM, RED-DRIVE, RAW port, LCD, battery pack, premium pack, 18-50mm zoom, 50-85mm zoom.

I'm sure there will be some established rental houses that need more RED ONE's then they have available for the first few months. Is $500/week about right?

Stephen Williams

06-10-2007, 08:15 AM

Curran Giddens

06-10-2007, 08:59 AM

Hi,

Normally a rental house will give you 50% of revenue earned from each piece of kit. I think you will have a problem renting at all without an EVF.

Stephen

Yeah, I guess I could just go ahead and get an EVF for you old school guys. I'm not going to use one myself. Maybe the rental house could just buy an extra one from RED to include in my rental package.

donatello b

06-10-2007, 09:14 AM

if you have a low # you might be able to get more then 50% for a "period of time" ... i've been talking to a few ...i'm finding the rental houses outside of LA that do not have a reservations or order are offering in the 75% area based on RED body , EVF, Batt , media and then they will make their $$ renting out all other accessories/lenses/camera support from their inventory - .. many film rental houses outside of LA are finding their film camera's are sitting on the shelf for a longer time between rentals ... in general they want 2 REDs min - just in case one goes down on a rental or they want to know where they can get a back up in very short time ...

"the rental house could just buy an extra one from RED to include in my rental package"

IMO it will be a long time before a rental house or individual without a order for a RED that they are picking up can just call up RED and say send me a EVF ...

Stephen Williams

06-10-2007, 09:33 AM

Yeah, I guess I could just go ahead and get an EVF for you old school guys. I'm not going to use one myself. Maybe the rental house could just buy an extra one from RED to include in my rental package.

Hi,

Once you start shooting wide open, you will want an EVF.

The rental house will ideally want a Body, EVF & recording medium, they probably already have lenses, matte boxes, follow focus units & tripods they want to rent to their customers.

Stephen

Finner

06-10-2007, 09:35 AM

Not to pick on you or anything, but a 2nd only fetches the lenses.

The 1st and DP are the only ones who should physically touch the camera and or swap lens.

When i was a 1st I met a lot of DP's that should not touch the lenses also. You would be suprised how many do not even know how to swap a lense. I would teach my seconds how to mount lenses to the camera in there 1st week with me.

Curran Giddens

06-10-2007, 10:51 AM

Hi,

Once you start shooting wide open, you will want an EVF.

The rental house will ideally want a Body, EVF & recording medium, they probably already have lenses, matte boxes, follow focus units & tripods they want to rent to their customers.

Stephen

Ok. You convinced me to get an EVF. I guess now I'll have some more time to scrape up more cash before my camera ships. I forgot that my original accessories order was based on the old shipping schedule.

Proteus

06-11-2007, 01:38 AM

I haven't ordered one yet, but I'll definitely buy a RED camera.
I'll need it for a couple of special projects next year, although I'm not a filmmaker. The projects will be professional though, but in areas not usually addressed by filmmakers. I will have to stretch the limits of what RED can provide and what can be delivered commercially.

I need the camera at next spring and I hope they will be able to ship new orders by then. As I reside in Europe, it'll cost me much more (because of customs) and it is unlikely that there will be any rentals soon enough and close enough... but I always like to own my equipment.

BTW, I think that the RED team should consider establishing an office in Europe for distribution in reasonable prices. Europe might prove to be a larger market in the following years...

RED ONE #???

Paul Leeming

06-11-2007, 04:26 AM

One other small note about pricing for rental - I've learned the hard way that it's usually better to overcharge a bit and cut out the bottom rung of people who are looking at lowest price first, while ironically being the most demanding when it comes to complaining about every little thing, wanting further discounts, saying they are not happy when you have given them all they asked for, in order to try to get out of paying etc etc.

If I can avoid those types by charging a little more, thus pricing it outside their value mindset, so be it. My life will be far less stressful as a result!

Stephen Williams

06-11-2007, 04:32 AM

If I can avoid those types by charging a little more, thus pricing it outside their value mindset, so be it. My life will be far less stressful as a result!

Hi Paul,

The same works being a DOP!

Stephen

laguun

06-11-2007, 04:37 AM

just for the discussion about calculation and daily rate, some rules of thumb from the german rental market:

new/rare gear, high demand, few offers: 1-2% retail price/day
etablished gear, mid demand, mid offers: 0.75-1% retail price/day
common gear, low demand, many offers: 0.5-0.75% retail price/day

a week booking will usually result in ~10/15%, a month ~20/30% price reduction.
highly support/maintenance intense gear (optics, crt etc) add some %%.

ironically, very inexpensive devices and peripherals often have much higher %/day, we often see customers who rent out hvx200 ~150/200 euro a day, while we often rent out sony 750 hdcams at 250/300 for regular customers.

Mark K.

06-11-2007, 04:43 AM

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-11-2007, 05:00 AM

However they seem to come up with rental figures in Hollywood, they don't seem like good deals at all to me. If the rental companies have high overheads and really don't make much money, well, I feel sorry for them I guess, but that shouldn't be my problem as a consumer. I mean to charge $225 per day for a dolly is just a joke. I found several good, professional dolly systems online for $3,500, and sure if you want a full set of tracks and wheels for the tracks, etc., you could even spend $12,000 on a dolly. But if you're going to spend $225 a day and shoot for 50 days a year, you're going to spend that anyway. And you don't get tracks for $225 a day. Just the dolly. That is a particular piece of equipment that is a massive ripoff. Another thing is when you see a boom mic rented for like $50 a day. I don't care whether it does or does not have a pole, a good boom mic setup is still only $900 to $1,200, so basically they're going to make their money back in a month of rentals. Uhh ok? Not on my dollar. It's hard to identify basically any good rental prices whatsoever, especially when I see something like an XL-1S renting for $200 per day, then you really know the world is backwards. That camera should be about $50 per day. It's not worth more than $1,800 on eBay, it can't even shoot native 16:9, it's garbage compared to the XL-2. I can't imagine a professional renting that camera at all, let alone for $200 a day. Maybe that's why it's overpriced, after all, because nobody rents it so it takes a year to pay it off at $200 a day because it only rents for like 8 days of the year. ;)

I'm not seeing the 1% a day thing. Most of the equipment I've seen looks like they could pay for the equipment (without the cost of their overhead, salaries, marketing, etc.) in about 20-40 days, maybe 50 days, which is 2% per day. But maybe where you are that is more the case, I have no idea. I'm just judging from all of the local prices I've seen in L.A., which have repeatedly made me think the equipment rental business might be a sweet one to be in after all.

About the DP comment -- I'm sure that's true. If you have too cheap of rates you're going to get some really idiotic project requests. This DP I worked with one day on the Cybill Shepherd public service announcement was working the next day for some dude making an apology video for his ex-girlfriend. What the heck is that about? I was with him on that shoot, too, and I couldn't believe what an idiot this director was. He was the subject of every shot of the movie, of course, he didn't have addresses listed for any of the places he was filming, and he knew not the first thing about making a movie. When the DP asked him how the lighting scheme was inside of this bar, the guy said, "Oh it's just a pretty standard thing to light." Standard thing to light? What the heck does that even mean? The 1st A.C. and the DP were both laughing at him when we went to lunch and he stayed at his place, which was also weird. He had us filming in Pasadena, Hollywood, and downtown Los Angeles (in the late afternoon on a Friday, brilliant). He had no script, just some poorly written notes he sent via e-mail. I felt bad for this DP, I hope he got paid well, because it was a bad, bad project. This guy was experienced, too, probably in his late 40s to mid 50s. If I was that age and had done quite a bit in the industry, I would rather not work at all than waste my time on something that unprofessional. I think he owed it to this guy because a friend of his promised he could help him or something.

donatello b

06-11-2007, 08:30 AM

IMO - suppy & demand will be a big factor in rental price ...
lets just say a shootable RED will rent for 1200-1500 day ( body, one zoom, batts, EFV, LCD, media, sticks) ... if you have been a 500 day cameraperson ( including camera -HVX, DVX, HDV or whatever you have ) i really don't think your clients are going to start paying you 1700-2000 day ... most clients that pay 500 -1000 day are not jumping up to 1700+ day and from what i've seen over the years when a 500 day client decides to spend 2000 day you ( 500 day) are OUT of the picture because they look at you as a 500 day cameraperson = they want the person that is a 1700 day cameraperson all the time ... there are 500 , 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000 day camerapersons and if i'm going to pay 3000 day i'm not going to hire the person i've been paying 1000 day = nature of the business ...

John Waterman

06-11-2007, 09:59 AM

You also need to consider the other cameras in your rental market. A producer may be hot for the RED, like all of us, or they may just want a good, pro level camera. I can rent a super 16 Arri SR2 with all the goodies, follow focus, mattebox, filters, mags, video tap, field monitor, sticks, etc. for only $900 per day, with a 3 day week. I'd have to spend money on film and processing and telecine tho. I can get a full on f900 package for about $1200 per day, with 3 day week. So use the existing camera rental market as a guide.

John Waterman

06-11-2007, 10:05 AM

But when all the REDs are dumped into the market the rental houses can lower the rates on their existing camera packages, which they have already paid off, so I might be able to get a varicam or f900 for $400-$500?? per day.

laguun

06-11-2007, 11:22 AM

I'm not seeing the 1% a day thing. Most of the equipment I've seen looks like they could pay for the equipment (without the cost of their overhead, salaries, marketing, etc.) in about 20-40 days, maybe 50 days, which is 2% per day. But maybe where you are that is more the case, I have no idea. I'm just judging from all of the local prices I've seen in L.A., which have repeatedly made me think the equipment rental business might be a sweet one to be in after all.

there are several common misconceptions about the rental business.
you -never- will earn a device back on 50 days with 2%. why? 50*2=100? sure, but you have -huge- overheads and additional costs.
let me illustrate this with some examples.

the rental market is mostly a pro-market.
- therefore, it is 100% necessary to have a backup for most the pro-customers. you can´t charge them for the second camera which you should, rather must have, in order to competete in several markets - or you loose the customer.

- customers don´t rent equipment alone, they rent service and comfort as well.
good example: tripods&gripping. it seems to me that the tripods are even more emotional to many cameramen than cooke vs. angenieux. and there is sachtler, o´connor, vinten..... a huge selection of different manufacturers. and the customer has preferences. he doesn´t want the sachtler when he wants the vinten, he doesn´t want the 150´if he wants to have the 100. and he will often require "his" preferred followfocus, remote, mattebox etc. so you will have lots of equipment idle, even if the cameras are working, and they also costs lots of money. now, the customer -could- rent the tripod there, the mattebox here, the camera at that other house, but he won´t. he would be forced into a dreadful micromanagement, would have no one to help him out when the followfocus isn´t working with the lens etc. so add big sums of "unnecessary" gear to match the clients wishes here as well.

-a day the customer has the camera isn´t a rental day.
shooting schedule. 1-3 shooting. then 4-5 break, team moves to other location. 5-9 shooting there. then 10-12 only one day of shooting, as weather is uncertain. you don´t charge the days the gear is on the road or on standby at 100% rental, 25-33% is pretty common. furthermore, most people do take weekends. so, this can be somewhere between -10 to -40% net revenue, and especially documentaries are usual suspect for 8 weeks rental, 5 weeks shooting.

-you will need a top-class insurance. even if you don´t think you want one, believe me, you really want a good insurance if you rent out.
this will typically drain 0.3-1% of the equiments worth a month. it will be more if the insurance covers 4h on location replacement.

-producers WILL negotiate. and they can.
the larger the rental budget, the harder they will try to push the prices down. its their job.

-you need paid workforce to have the office running 7/7.
not only one person, or you will lose jobs for sure, simply because you are talking with the current customer and can´t pick up the phone for the next one.

-you will need maintenance.
red seems wonderful, a camera with almost no moving parts. but optics etc
-will 100%- require expensive service over time.

-murphys law applies to shooting schedules, especially when actors are involved.
even if you have 4 weeks of shooting an then directly following another 3 weeks for another project, it is very possible that the first project will require more shooting time and/or the second one starts earlier. if one already has signed the contract, the rental customer will expect you to find gear for the overlapping time. if you don´t chances are high that you won´t see the customer again. and typically you will pay much more than you earn for the 2 or 4 days of overlapping schedule of the both projects.

there are many more points to take into consideration, but i hope these points already demonstrated that there is considerable overhead in rental biz.

MosesMa

06-11-2007, 11:33 AM

I mean my goal is to be a feature film director, and if I have to direct small projects I finance myself for $50,000 (and can make my money back) that's ok, but I think especially for the first few years, I'm going to need to supplement my income with something more every-day.
Hey gang,

I was talking to Ken and Wendy over at BAVC, and we came up with an interesting idea to help indie producers... time-sharing a complete RED film package. This concept would work something like this - AND THIS IS STILL IN THE CONCEPT STAGE:

- two REDs, one prime set, the zooms, as well as viewfinders, monitors, matte boxes, sufficient memory and storage solutions
- probably $100K of REDstuff & other equipment
- we'd let 10 indie producers co-own the package at a cost of $10K apiece
- this would give those producers access to the entire kit for four weeks each per year (scheduling will be a nightmare though)
- BAVC - a trusted non-profit - would manage the program, in exchange for getting to use the equipment during the remaining time available
- this allows the 10 producers to use this kit EVERY YEAR for a new film project, and could resell their time-share slot to someone else
- we're doing a financial projection shortly, including the cost of having a half time tech taking care of the equipment, rental to cover downtime, insurance, and some program for continuous upgrading so the kit is always state-of-the-art
- BAVC is thinking about teaching classes on how to shoot with a RED and optimal workflow, and possibly, the course could be thrown in as a deal sweetener
- we're thinking this MIGHT be an interesting solution for indie producers but not DPs, this would probably only work for Bay Area producers, and again... this is only at the concept stage

I'm thinking that since IndieRED is quoting $1350 a week for one camera, without lenses, renting is going to end up costing $10-15K for a three week shoot. This timeshare model would give us access to a camera package optimized to a typical indie producer's schedule.

So in the interest of market testing this concept, I thought I'd post it here and collect feedback about interest in such a program? If you can message me back, I'll collect the findings and report back to Ken and Wendy.

Thanks!

Moses

KETCH ROSSi

06-11-2007, 12:04 PM

I will allways try not to rent, I rented everityng my all life, now I can finally afford to buy and dispite wath many of my friends and people in the industry say, (This is a rental Industry),I will buy; as I already have my entire Tungsten Fresneli light package and some genny and grip plus an HD camcorder, I'm down for 3 RED's and will try to buy all the rest of the equipmant, including lenses as an example made by JIM, there five Primes cost less then one of ZEISS, but even if you where to rent the ZEISS set for your shoot, at end you could have purchased and pay for the entire RED's Prime set.

Yes it is a very expensive prop, but any business must have the tools to proform the job, making movies is no different, as a baker will try to buy His Ovens we, must try to buy our tools.

Ciao

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-11-2007, 06:21 PM

I agree Ketch, that's how I feel. It is funny to me that it's such a rental industry, but I suppose if what you are paying for is the backup and reliability of an established rental house so that if anything breaks they can come replace it on set, that makes some sense.

I think the overhead of a typical rental company is understandable but not the only business model. If you asked some indie filmmakers if they'd rather have all of those options but pay two times as much money, or have just one great package (one specific tripod that was top-of-the-line, not three or four to choose from), they would opt for the cheaper option because it isn't inferior, just less flexible. I think there is room for both options. If I'm renting my equipment, I have almost no overhead whatsoever, I'm a lot more agile and able than a big equipment rental company that has to charge for employees and their lease and their extra unused equipment, etc. That is a major downside. And for me, my downside is I wouldn't have a ton of options, I'd have just what I'm using basically, but whatever it is will be the best equipment I can find. Not cheapo stuff.

It wouldn't be too difficult for someone to rent everything else from a normal rental company and just the camera package from me to save money, either. Not to mention since my friend David will have a RED as well, that can easily serve as a backup camera most of the time.

laguun

06-11-2007, 08:43 PM

I think the overhead of a typical rental company is understandable but not the only business model. If you asked some indie filmmakers if they'd rather have all of those options but pay two times as much money, or have just one great package (one specific tripod that was top-of-the-line, not three or four to choose from), they would opt for the cheaper option because it isn't inferior, just less flexible. I think there is room for both options. If I'm renting my equipment, I have almost no overhead whatsoever, I'm a lot more agile and able than a big equipment rental company that has to charge for employees and their lease and their extra unused equipment, etc. That is a major downside.
yes, that is true, there are smaller rental business models which work well and are sustainable. i only wanted to illustrate some of the typical calculation factors in the rental industry which reduce the profits quite a bit and force many large-scale rental corps to keep prices up. and the "indie"-market has its own set of rules anyhow.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-11-2007, 08:47 PM

Yeah you're right, and your post was highly informative, laguun, so I thank you for that. You pointed out all of the details that go into running a full-scale rental operation, and actually you made me realize why indeed it would cost more money if you're running an outfit that big.

I think... somewhat ironically... the best rental options may be either really small or really big. The reason I say that is because if you're getting a huge price break by only renting a friend's or a friend of a friend's RED, you are risking no backup equipment but saving a lot of money in the process. If you're running a huge rental company, though, you can afford to have backups without increasing prices TOO much. Like let's say you had 4 REDs and you wanted to have 1 backup available in case of error, you're basically having to pass on the cost of keeping that RED around just to offer that luxury. If you had 20 REDs, you could probably get by with just two backups, which is only 1 for every 10 RED cameras, not 1 for every 4. So I'd rather be running a really small company or a really big one. The medium-level one might be tougher because your overhead is relatively higher per piece of equipment.

Dan McCain

06-11-2007, 09:43 PM

While you are busy making plans to undercut everyone don't forget to plan for the unforeseen circumstances that can creep up. Imagine a shoot where the producer is spending $20,000 or more per day for cast, crew, dolly and crane rentals etc. And your camera malfunctions, the producer is furious. If you are offering the camera package, you should pay to rent another one (and quickly). These are also the same days when you are doing the producer a favor and you agreed to shoot for $500 (the less they pay you the more demanding they will be). And what happens to your reputation while your camera is in the shop being repaired and you are booked on another shoot the next fews days? Will you sub-rent the camera and keep the client, and how much will that cost you, especially if you have to rent a camera for more than you are charging?

How about if you rent your camera to someone who is traveling for a week but wants a three day rental. As soon as the camera goes out your best client needs you for two week long shoot starting a day before your camera gets back. What do you do? Another two week long job overseas (where there are no RED rental houses) calls while your camera is gone and starts the day after it should back. You organize for the renter to ship by FedEx so it gets back the day before you leave. Fedex comes and the package didn't arrive. Now what do you do?

Now imagine all these unfortunate situations happen at the same time and then you dont have any work for a month. Can you pay your loans, insurance, repair bills, credit card bills, fed ex costs, rent, food etc etc.

Some of these may sound extreme, but sometimes productions are crazy and situations like these arise. I have discovered there is no easy money, and just when you think you have an easy shoot, some complication will creep up to make sure you work for the money. I don't write this to be cynical and discourage you, but these are realities you will probably face often so prepare in advance and make sure you are charging enough to make a living through the good and bad times.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-11-2007, 10:02 PM

I have plenty of money to deal with any problems like that if they arise, yes. My income per month on just investments is plenty, let's just put it that way, so if money can solve a problem I can solve the problem.

But I get your point. Maybe I haven't emphasized this enough but I am not starting an equipment rental company right now. I never rule anything out, one day, maybe that'd be a nice side business to have. But right now my plan would be to rent equipment out only as a last resort to add to my income and keep me busy, which is why I'd most likely be going with my equipment anywhere it went, because that would be the point for me. I'm really not interested in having other people use my equipment, but it's a service I could provide. I'll have a full basic set of equipment eventually from a dolly and a steadicam to lighting equipment to editing equipment to camera equipment, etc. If someone wanted to put together a small indie production I'd be able to help them out with anything they wanted or needed. If they're trying to make Spider-Man 4 I can't help. I don't have that kind of equipment, haha.

If someone is shooting a movie that costs $20,000 per day, which is not super expensive for a big shoot by any means but also not super cheap, then I'm not really sure they're going to want to rent from me. Maybe, but I'm thinking probably the people I would be renting to would be smaller fish who are looking to save a little money in exchange for the possibility that hassles like that arise.

I would not be trying to make a living just off my equipment. If anything it would be just a little extra cash to help me out.

I have no idea how they do it in the real equipment rental market, but if someone wants my camera for a week I don't care if they're shooting for 1 hour, 1 day, or all 7 days, they'll pay me for the amount of time my camera is gone and not able to be rented to anyone else. That's a no brainer. How retarded would it be if I told a company I want their camera for a year but I'm only really shooting for just 4 days so could I just pay for that? Uhh no. That's not how it works. Granted if you rented a camera for seven days I'm not going to charge you the same daily rental fee that I'd charge someone who rented for one day. Negotiations are always possible, that's how business goes. But I can't understand how I'm supposed to know or care how many days you're shooting with the camera if you're going to take it for longer. That's really your problem to figure out as the producer or DP or director, not mine, I'm just the one giving you the equipment.

Stephen Williams

06-12-2007, 01:56 AM

I have no idea how they do it in the real equipment rental market, but if someone wants my camera for a week I don't care if they're shooting for 1 hour, 1 day, or all 7 days, they'll pay me for the amount of time my camera is gone and not able to be rented to anyone else. That's a no brainer. How retarded would it be if I told a company I want their camera for a year but I'm only really shooting for just 4 days so could I just pay for that? Uhh no. That's not how it works. Granted if you rented a camera for seven days I'm not going to charge you the same daily rental fee that I'd charge someone who rented for one day. Negotiations are always possible, that's how business goes. But I can't understand how I'm supposed to know or care how many days you're shooting with the camera if you're going to take it for longer. That's really your problem to figure out as the producer or DP or director, not mine, I'm just the one giving you the equipment.

Hi,

3 day weeks are common, sometimes you will get offered 2 or 1.5 day weeks.

Stephen

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-12-2007, 02:33 AM

So how does that work? What does a 3-day week mean? I'm confused by that. If you rent it for a week you get to shoot for three days? That seems odd. A week to me means five days.

Nick Shaw

06-12-2007, 02:42 AM

Fairly common in equipment rental is that you pay for four days for a seven day week, and for three days for a five day week. Also delivery and collection days are not usually chargable, but obviously that means that kit cannot be with anybody else for at least a day either side of a job.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-12-2007, 03:05 AM

Ah, I see. What do they use those days for? I mean it seems like wasted time. Yeah you could say the first day is for camera tests or something but get with the program, you gotta know how to use equipment before you rent it, or come in and test it earlier or something. Also as far as travel time, I'd say it's simple, you come get the camera Sunday night, you bring it back by late Friday, you get five days of filming and you'd just pay for five days of filming. Makes sense to me anyway. If I were renting that's how I'd want to do it. If someone told me I have to check out a camera Monday afternoon and return it Friday morning or something, I'd be bummed.

We heard that some companies if you check out equipment Friday and return it Monday morning early, you only pay for one day because they don't charge for the weekend days. But I have no idea if that's true or not.

Stephen Williams

06-12-2007, 03:30 AM

Hi,

Thats the buisness,

I day means a lost afternoon & morning!

Weekend 1 day quite possible.

Stephen

Dominique Grenier

06-12-2007, 06:55 AM

Ah, I see. What do they use those days for? I mean it seems like wasted time.

That's not the point. It doesn't matter if you shoot or not. It is just a deal rental house usually make. It is a special price like when you negotiate a special kit "If I take this along side of this, could you give me a better price" kind of deal, you see?

So the special deal is if you rent the camera for five days, you only pay 3, if you take it for 7 days, you only pay 4, regardless of what you do with your camera during this time.

Your kind of required to do this, unless you don't want to rent your camera on long shoot. Who would be interested to rent equipement for a 30 days long shoot at full price per day??? ($500/day x 30 = $15,000, almost what the RED body is worth!!!)

Sanjin Jukic

06-12-2007, 07:14 AM

(RED body only)>>Fair prices are:

1. € 400,00 daily
2. € 1.200,00 weekly
3. € 4.800,00 monthly

donatello b

06-12-2007, 08:28 AM

usually the longer you rent equipment the better day/week you get ...
also supply & demand plays a part ... we've all have rented camera's for features and recieved 3, 2 1/2 , 2 and every now & then 1 1/2 day week ... i've never paid a 4 day week on a feature - they've tend to start at 3 days and goes down from there ... some of this also depends on what other equipment you need on certain days (maybe extra body,special lens)
it's all a package deal ... if a camera/equipment goes down the rental house replaces it ( at their cost) and if they do not have it on their shelf to replace they have arrangements with other rental houses to get the needed equipment ...

once 300-500 individual RED owners hit the streets of LA - there will deals in all price ranges ....

Finner

06-12-2007, 08:33 AM

That's not the point. It doesn't matter if you shoot or not. It is just a deal rental house usually make. It is a special price like when you negotiate a special kit "If I take this along side of this, could you give me a better price" kind of deal, you see?

So the special deal is if you rent the camera for five days, you only pay 3, if you take it for 7 days, you only pay 4, regardless of what you do with your camera during this time.

There is a little more to add to this. If I was shooting a project for 1 month (5days a week with weekends off) A rental house would charge me a 2 or 3 day week (I have been getting 2 day weeks lately). So you do not get charged anything for the weekend and each week you only pay for 2 days of rental. So if you were charging $500 a day you will end up with $1,000 a week. Also as far as 1 day commercials or music videos go the camera is out of rental circulation for 3 days even though the rental rate and shoot is only 1 day. Day 1 would be camera prep (no rental charge) day 2 would be the shoot (1 day rental charge) day 3 would be return of gear (no charge). This is tipically how rental companies work. the bags of money that you think the rental companies make is not correct.

Curran Giddens

06-12-2007, 11:07 AM

Hi,

Normally a rental house will give you 50% of revenue earned from each piece of kit.

Stephen

If I get 50% of the revenue earned from a RED package on loan to a rental house, what if they just keep my RED as backup?

In other words, if I get 50% of revenue only when my RED package is rented, the rental house can just keep my RED as a backup (which is of some value) and say it hasn't been rented.

I guess I'm hoping for a guaranteed fee for a long-term loan with an established rental shop, even if it is less then 50% of rental rate.

Emmanuel Cambier

06-12-2007, 02:28 PM

I am also looking for a guaranteed fee for a long term loan, anybody has an experience about this practice?

Mark K.

06-12-2007, 06:39 PM

ARGH! No don't do long term loans - use you camera to shoot pretty 4k footage that you then upload to the net at 1k so I can get all giggly about buying my own some day!

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-12-2007, 07:02 PM

If someone wanted to rent a camera for a month, you'd only charge them 8 days of actually renting it? Wow... I'm not sure if I'd bother at that point, doesn't really seem worth it. Just find projects you can do yourself and you'd make more than that.

I guess the way you guys put things isn't very clear to me, it may be industry-talk, but to say "I got a 2 day week" makes no sense to me at all, grammatically. To say, "I got the camera for a week and paid for just two days" makes sense, or "I paid for only two days out of seven." *shrug*

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-12-2007, 09:18 PM

Thinking about this, though, I have a question for some of you veterans here. If I'm going to be shooting something up in Portland where I need to rent equipment (unless I drove everything I have up there, which I might, depending on cost), and it's going to be a three-week shoot, will I be able to get a break on equipment if I rent all with the same company? Let's say I need a few 2Ks, a few 1Ks, a few tweenies, some flags, silks, etc., all the basic grip equipment like that, and I want a dolly for the three week shoot, etc., I won't pay book prices will I mean? I mean if I am using the equipment for three weeks and getting a fair amount of it, I would assume it'd be possible to get a price break.

My only issue there is I think in the interest of keeping the budget low I would be better off -- since we plan on having a large equipment van by that point -- just driving it up to Portland 1,000 miles and back 1,000 miles. Sure, you waste two full days and you spend some money on gas, but if that could save $5,000 to $10,000 then it would absolutely be worth it to me.

Finner

06-12-2007, 11:06 PM

If someone wanted to rent a camera for a month, you'd only charge them 8 days of actually renting it?

Yep. Thats how the rental game is currently working. They are not making as much money as you thought. The thing is compared to a commercial or music vid that preps 1 day(free) shoots 1 day(rental that day) and returns the camera on the 3rd day(free) you will actually make more on the 2 day week rental of a one month feature then 3 commercials and 2 music vids.

I guess the way you guys put things isn't very clear to me, it may be industry-talk, but to say "I got a 2 day week" makes no sense to me at all, grammatically. To say, "I got the camera for a week and paid for just two days" makes sense, or "I paid for only two days out of seven." *shrug*

Most everything in the film industry is spoken in a short hand industry talk manner that is rarely "grammatically correct" so get use to it. Saying 2 day or three day weeks when talking about rentals seems very easy to understand to me and there is a lot more technical lingo that is a lot more complex then the phrase 2 day week rental is.

As far as looking to rent equipment for a 3 week shoot you should be able to swing a pretty good deal as you will probably be able to get a 2-3 day week on equipment. By the way learn the lingo of 2day week rentals honestly I really don't see it as that tough of a concept to grasp and if you try to rent from a rental house without the right lingo they will charge you more or worse yet decide not to rent to you at all because they see you as an unexperienced liability.

David Mullen ASC

06-12-2007, 11:19 PM

In general, the more you can rent from one company, rather than break it up over several, the better deal you can strike (plus the more convenient it is to pick-up), but whether or not you'll get a better deal in Portland or L.A. (enough to justify the cost of driving the equipment up there) just depends -- you just have to start the bidding process and see what the numbers are like.

Also, rental companies outside of a major market like L.A. tend to provide more services & products under one roof for all-around production needs, rather than have as many seperate specialty rental companies as in L.A. On the other hand, the variety of choices may be more limited -- for example, the rental company may have a Chapman PeeWee dolly instead of a Fisher 11 dolly, if that matters much to you (doesn't to me actually). It may have one type of HMI light but not another, etc.

Another advantage of renting locally for a couple of weeks, besides not having to drive everything up from L.A., is if something breaks, the rental house is right there to replace it.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-12-2007, 11:25 PM

That's a good point for sure. I'm not sure, though, because it depends how easy it is to move the RED and its equipment up there. If it's too difficult to fly it up with me, along with my tripod, I'd be better off just driving everything up there and if something breaks or doesn't work right I can always go to a local equipment dealer and bite the bullet for a few hundred. I'm sure some stuff I'll probably rent regardless, it's just a matter of reducing what I must rent.

Finner -- I am not saying it's difficult to learn the lingo, I was only saying at first I was confused because I've never heard anyone say that, but obviously I'm not an idiot I can figure it out and now I understand it. It makes sense, it just didn't upon first reading. That's why I was confused.

Paul Leeming

06-13-2007, 12:42 AM

Well here in Japan I plan to rent my two Reds out as package deals for the following prices (per package):

JPY 175,000 per day
JPY 1,000,000 per week (~80% day rate)
JPY 3,500,000 per month (~67% day rate)

Now that is as a full package containing the following items:

Red One Digital Cinema Camera (body)
Red 18-50mm Close Focus Zoom (PL mount)
Electronic Viewfinder (EVF)
LCD Display (LCD)
Power Pack (charger plus 2x 140Whr Li-Ion batteries)
RedDrive Digital Magazine (320GB) x2
Red CompactFlash Adaptor
CompactFlash Card (8GB) x2
SD Card (for storing camera settings, LUTs etc.)
RedRail Premium Production Pack (full rail set with handles and plates)
Matte Box (CVB's probably)
Follow Focus Kit
Tripod (head and one set of long legs)
Camera operator/on set technician (with laptop for transferring footage, altering LUT settings etc.)I am fully aware of how lots of rental houses do 2-3 day weeks etc but the above idea of pricing per day, week or month seems more logical to me and means people can instantly work out how much they are going to spend for their shoot. It's also a balance between guaranteed camera work and income versus cost, so that a monthly rental earns me less but it's guaranteed income, whereas the day rate is higher but there will be down time where the camera is not generating any income.

Since I'll be paying people to be on set with the camera as technicians and data managers this seems like a reasonable deal to me, plus of course I am paying for the company infrastructure such as office rental, insurance, computers etc which all adds up rather fast when you do the maths.

Sam Druckerman

06-13-2007, 01:44 AM

Paul Leeming

06-13-2007, 09:15 AM

I will be paying my staff (five of them in total including myself) JPY 300,000 per month (gross) each, which with Japan's 5% tax rate is pretty easy to live on (I know because I'm on a little bit less right now!). We're going to be a rather non-traditional company, with people wearing several hats and being flexible in their work hours and practices. Two of us will be Australian nationals working here; the other three will be Japanese locals. As I expand the amount of cameras I will expand the number of staff commensurately, while adding people who bring unique skills to the company (my goal long term is a production company so my staff will each have areas of specialisation beyond the camera tech job they will do initially).

Japan is a little non-conventional in that most people live at home with their parents until they get married, so for them the salary is actually pretty good, which along with my western work practices (time off, sick days which the Japanese companies never give etc) will make for a small, happy and dedicated crew who are good at their jobs and enjoy working with the best hardware in the business! I'm not hiring established DPs etc - I'm hiring based on people I trust first and foremost, who I can work with long term. You can always teach someone to do a job, but you can't teach loyalty, and that is far more important to me with such a small company. This will be my family in a certain way so loyalty becomes the number one priority to me.

The big unknowns for me right now are the cost of a sufficient tripod head and sticks (will see what the first hundred or so reservations use and base my purchasing decisions from there) and the potential cost of advertising that I actually have the cameras, but I figure once word of mouth gets out locally I won't have too much trouble maintaining a full rental schedule.

Something else not mentioned here is that I also am thinking of holding a small invitation only event when my first camera arrives in order for prospective clients to see it in the flesh and see its capabilities first hand. You know, a few free drinks, nibblies etc along with a camera set up and recording live to a computer for instant output to a (probably) 2K projector or something. I think of it as an initial advertising cost but I think it'd be a nice way to get people interested and get potential clients signing up on the schedule, as well as being able to meet and greet the staff who they would be working with and seeing that they are in fact competent and professional. As with everything Japanese, I'll probably get the crew into matching uniform shirts with my company logo for that extra shine (the Japanese love the idea of uniform identity as a sign of professionalism).

(Sorry, I went off on a little bit of a tangent but I thought it might be interesting for people to get a bit of information on Japanese working life which they might otherwise think is much the same as western culture.)

The numbers above are factored into my business plan and still gain me a good profit margin which I will need to stay in business and expand down the line as the camera becomes more widespread and begins to drag down rental rates. I do look on the numbers as possibly being a little low, but then I'm also a startup in a foreign country and want to use those numbers to gain a clientele who will stay with me over the long term. Better to have a full rental calendar early and pay the things off while I have a monopoly, then I no longer have to worry about the debt anchor and can expand accordingly while others are playing catchup. HTH!!

Curran Giddens

06-13-2007, 10:17 AM

I see you've got your eye on CVB's Matte Box. I'm also holding out on buying a tripod head (actually I'm using Mirus for tripod head), sticks, matte box, etc.

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-13-2007, 10:42 AM

visceralpsyche -- Sweet! Sounds like a good plan for sure. I agree with you about employee loyalty. I would much rather have people who I can really trust and who are willing to learn, enthusiastic, hard-working, etc. than just people who are a bit more skilled. Being dependable is very important.

Sam Druckerman

06-13-2007, 10:59 AM

Paul, thanks for such a thorough reply which I did find very interesting.

Lets see, 5 salaries @ 2.5k = 12.5K + 2 Nice Red packages and misc .... approximately 8k a month. That's like what? 20k a month in over head? And the kits will be paid off in about a year?

So you need about 14 day rentals a month from two kits to break even. That should work. But....

I still hope you find that your (RED) market demand will be high enough to charge a little more.

Good luck!

Sanjin Jukic

06-13-2007, 12:27 PM

Visceralpsyche,
very nice to share your business idea. Here in Austria people have to get pretty drunk to share with you any info or an idea about their work. Another country, another mentality, another practices. Anyway people in Anglo-Saxon countries are more open than in German speaking countries. Have a look at Germany, Austria, Switzerland. Industrially pretty developed countries, and rich BUT still a local provincial mentality rules. Not so easy.

Dominique Grenier

06-13-2007, 12:33 PM

Have a look at Germany, Austria, Switzerland. Industrially pretty developed countries, and rich BUT still a local provincial mentality rules.

Maybe there's a connection between the two... :bleh:

Sanjin Jukic

06-13-2007, 01:04 PM

Maybe there's a connection between the two... :bleh:

- In general that sound pretty conservative. I will do a digression again and take another example: Film "Easy Rider">>

"Easy Rider (1969) is the late 1960s "road film" tale of a search for freedom (or the illusion of freedom) in a conformist and corrupt America, in the midst of paranoia, bigotry and violence...>>AMERICA>>BOTH ARE COMING FROM CALIFORNIA (SYMBOL OF FREEDOM, OPENESS, VERY RICH STATE) DRIVING TO MIDDLE OF USA...

- The iconographic, 'buddy' film, actually minimal in terms of its artistic merit and plot, is both memorialized as an image of the popular and historical culture of the time and a story of a contemporary but apocalyptic journey by two self-righteous, drug-fueled, anti-hero bikers eastward through the American Southwest...>>TWO CARACTERS SEARCH FOR A FREEDOM BASICALLY...

-According to slogans on promotional posters, they were on a search:
A man went looking for America and couldn't find it anywhere.
Their costumes combine traditional patriotic symbols with emblems of loneliness, criminality and alienation - the American flag, cowboy decorations, long-hair, and drugs.

- Middle America's hatred for the long-haired cyclists is shown in the film's famous ending. When Wyatt speeds down the road to seek help for his dying friend, the rednecks turn around and drive toward him - gunfire again blasts through the window and Wyatt's bike flies through the air. [Significantly, Wyatt's dead body doesn't appear in the final scene.] The closing image (of the earlier flash-forward) is an aerial shot floating upwards above his motorcycle which is burning in flames by the side of the road. Death seems to be the only freedom or means to escape from the system in America where alternative lifestyles and idealism are despised as too challenging or free. The romance of the American highway is turned menacing and deadly."

QUOTES TAKEN FROM
http://www.filmsite.org/easy.html

Another reference to Germany, Austria and more wider>>

"The Holocaust (from the Greek holókauston from olon "completely" and kauston "burnt"), also known as Ha-Shoah (Hebrew: ?????), Churben (Yiddish: ?????), is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler.[2]
Other groups were persecuted and killed by the regime, including the Roma, Soviet POWs, disabled people, gay men, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholic Poles, and political prisoners.[3][4] Many scholars do not include these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, defining it as the genocide of the Jews,[5] or what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question." Taking into account all the victims of Nazi persecution, the death toll rises considerably: estimates generally place the total number of victims at nine to 11 million.[6]"

QUOTES TAKEN FROM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

HATREDS, PROSECUTION, KILLING, DEATH is it a part of history and culture of developed and rich nations, or is dedicated only to a poor, non-developed third world??!!

And now you could rethink your statement and conclude in a different even oposite way then using your "smiles".

Poi Boy

06-13-2007, 01:20 PM

Quote"HATREDS, PROSECUTION, KILLING, DEATH is it a part of history and culture of developed and rich nations??!!

And now you could rethink your statement and conclude in a different even oposite way then using your "smiles"."
__________________

"HATREDS, PROSECUTION, KILLING, DEATH" is the history of mankind and has NOTHING to do with country.
-A

Dominique Grenier

06-13-2007, 01:34 PM

- In general that sound pretty conservative.

(...)

And now you could rethink your statement and conclude in a different even oposite way then using your "smiles".

Huummm, I don't usually get into this, but I will because I think you REALLY misunderstood me! (or maybe I was inappropriate, I don't know)

What I meant was that maybe the reasons the countries you mentionned are so industrially advanced and rich is because they are not open about what they do, and therefore keep their secrets for themselves. Maybe it wasn't clear, but to me that really doesn't sound like an insult, is it?

Any way, I'm sorry if you were insulted by what I said, it wasn't at all my intention, hence the smiley face at the end.

Sanjin Jukic

06-13-2007, 01:41 PM

"HATREDS, PROSECUTION, KILLING, DEATH" is the history of mankind and has NOTHING to do with country.
-A

Sounds almost like a truth. But it is just a partially.

Noam Chomsky wrote:
"Everyone's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: Stop participating in it."
Link>>
http://www.frif.com/new2002/pandt.html
Video trailer/DVD>>
http://www.powerandterror.com/

Finner

06-13-2007, 01:42 PM

hi Third man.

Please refrain from your political rants.

Sanjin Jukic

06-13-2007, 01:48 PM

Sorry Finner,

but one more good news:

Steven Spielberg Endorses Hillary Clinton for President

Link>>
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,281724,00.html

Jonathan L. Bowen

06-13-2007, 06:59 PM

Wait.. you think that's GOOD news? I just lost a lot of respect for Spielberg. Voting for Hilary Clinton for president, LOL, wow... yeah right.

I don't know how this thread become political but liberal or conservative, I can't imagine anyone voting for her. What a joke.

Alexander Nikishin

06-13-2007, 07:34 PM

I'd rather vote for Hilary Duff....

Emmanuel Cambier

06-14-2007, 03:03 AM

this thread used to mean something for me… too bad.

Curran Giddens

06-14-2007, 04:46 AM

I am also looking for a guaranteed fee for a long term loan, anybody has an experience about this practice?

yeah, I was kinda hoping someone would have an answer for us on this....

Finner

06-14-2007, 10:11 AM

Curran

I have not seen a rental house offer any long term deals for a loan to them. The thing is I see a rental house useing your camera for the first little while as there is no risk of owning a $25,000 boat anchor if the camera is a flop. Then if the rental house finds rentals of the camera are busy and at a good rate they will buy some of their own and return yours to you as soon as their cameras come in. Their a rental company and they make the bulk of money by buying and renting gear not renting and then renting gear.

Curran Giddens

06-14-2007, 11:10 AM

thanks, by long-term I meant 3-4 months

Finner

06-14-2007, 11:36 AM

Curran personally I would think you would do a lot better to try and set up a rental situation of your own and then see if rental houses in your area are interested in having your camera as a sub-rental if they need it from time to time. I could see this system working better for you as the percentage a rental house will give you will be much lower then what you can get if you rent it yourself.

Personally I will only rent my camera out with me on the project or to crew that I know very well. If you are not comfortable as a operator or 1st Asst. or 2nd Asst. just go out as a DIT because in the first 6-12 months there will be not that many red workflow DIT pro's out there and you should be able to get a premium rate for yourself and your capture laptop and equipment. Right now in Vancouver a IATSE union DIT quite often makes more money then the 1st.

I think I see how owners could maximize their rental profit. If you are interested in my thoughts let me know and I will get into detail on it.

Emmanuel Cambier

06-14-2007, 11:48 AM

Finner

Just because it's never been done doesn't mean it can't be done.
You can't overlook the fact that the RedOne is not your average camera, and the fact that the delivery date of cameras could play a huge part here.

Emmanuel

Finner

06-14-2007, 11:55 AM

Ramesh Jai

06-14-2007, 12:03 PM

I thought RED was masculine? (ha ho hum):innocent:

Curran Giddens

06-14-2007, 01:08 PM

Emmanuel Cambier

06-14-2007, 01:37 PM

Emmanuel

Sure go ahead anything is possible. As far as if I was a rental house owner and a red owner came up to me and telling me how they were interested in sub renting their camera to me on their terms and differently then the way rental houses work I would get a bit of a laugh.

I really don't mean to do things on "my" terms, but rather to find everybody's interest. If you are a rental company but you didn't hear about Red soon enough or didn't take it seriously at first, you might get in a position where you would welcome a red owner's offer to let you rent his camera out, it's all about mutual respect and general interest, this is the only RULE.

I find it sort of amussing how you want to know how the typical rental house works with sub-rentals or long term rentals but when you don't get the answer you want you come up with excuses on why you feel it should be different. If you don't want to hear the answer to a question don't ask.

"the answer"… man… I don't take Finner's answers for the only possible answers… I'm just sorry for you if you think they are.

Just because a person owns a red does not put them in the drivers seat and this bussiness is all about repeat bussiness so building good relationships is the key.
I guess it all depends on the demand for the camera and the availability of this camera. Apart from that, I agree that it's all about good relationship and mutual interest.

Hey Finner:sarcasm:
I'm only reacting to the fact that you seem to want your answers ( which are quite sensible I should say ) to be definitive.
Other from that, I hope you will believe I have not a thing against the very dear you.

sincerely

Emmanuel

Finner

06-14-2007, 02:03 PM

Okay well this is the big thing I have learned from many producers over the years and that is they all want a deal. The secret is to give them all a "deal" in different ways but still get the day rate sum you want. I will be using mine as a director/Dp and my brother in law as the DIT but I will also rent mine out without me and just with brother in law as the DIT. Here is how I best see to get your price.

Camera package day rate.

Rent the body and evf at price X.

Rent everything else out seprately.

charge for the red drive and flash memory(which ever combination you want).

pimp out a cool looking lap top capture system, it does not have to be a really expensive system but make it look cool on a expensive looking cart. You should be able to charge a high rental premium for this "computer capture cart" I would say greater then $300 a day.

Sell the hard drives to the companies that you do the capture on for $100 to $150 more then you pay for it.

A DIT on anything with a decent budget should be able to get $500 or more a day and charge overtime after 10hrs.

Get a decent HD LCD that is fairly good sized and rent it as a premium directors monitor for 20% of its value a day. This also gives you a nice home TV for yourself. If you have an aluminum protecive case built for it the monitor will appear more "proffesional production level" which translates to a higher day rental price.

In the end the secret is in the extras. RED got a bunch of people excited because they announced a $17,500 camera. In the end though we all know you will not have much of a useable camera if thats all you buy. With cine glass and all the extras a person is actually looking at 40-50k and up. If Jim had announced the camera price at the total pckage price of 40-50k excitement and buzz would not have been nearly as high its still a good deal at that price but it was the under 20k price that really got people talking about red.

So hook the producers with a well priced rental on the camera itself and make your $$ on all the extras. Producers are already use to buying film and tape so renting your flash media, red drives and buying 1TB hard drives from you will be an easy sell. When the director and producer see the clear HD image of your 40 or so inch monitor that should be an easy sell (you can also make a high mark up rental on monitor cables and have extra mini to standard XLR adapters that you can rent out too) . Producers are also use to paying big $$ for edit suite time so a on set "computer off line edit suite/ capture device will rent for a bunch and they will love that they can see a rough cut of footage just minutes after shooting a shot. I totally feel the key is to grab them with the camera itself, if you rent the body & EVF for around $600 a day and they want it for $500 don't be afraid to let the have it for that price or cheaper as you can make up the money elsewhere on the package, maybe you just got a great deal on some hard drives and can sell them to the poroduction for twice what you paid for them there are many ways to get more $$. The key is to hooking them right off the bat by making them think they are getting a fantastic deal on the camera and then the extras are where you get it back. To give you an example of this I just got a 6 day job on a big national car commercial. I told the producer my rate and he hummed and hawed and asked if I would take X amount I took a few seconds and then agreed then after talking about my kit rental which I raised to a higher amount then I usually charge (I got no argument because in his mind he already thought he was getting a good deal) and then I mentioned that I work on a 10hr day rate, I ussually work on a 12hr rate but because he had asked me to work for a cheaper rate I made it 10hr's. I know from experience car commercials usually shoot very long days so in the end I am actually going to be making more money then I usually charge but he thinks he got me for cheaper then usual so he is happy because he thinks he got a good deal. This bussiness is really all about smoke and mirrors and when rentals and day rates come into play it is all a bit of a poker game of sorts.

Sanjin Jukic

06-14-2007, 02:23 PM

Finner,

thanks for sharing your great RED rental visions and experiences.

Brice Ansel

06-14-2007, 02:39 PM

Finner that was a good one. Bad luck I'm not good at poker

Joel Kaye

06-14-2007, 05:51 PM

see the clear HD image of your 40 or so inch monitor

Great post Finner!

JVC's got a new 24" monitor that looks like it might be really good:
http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_item.php?articleId=196602806

Anybody got experience with this unit?

But perhaps a 1080P 40" consumer monitor is more impressive though less accurate...hmmm. I'd rather have the accuracy personally - it could do double duty as a color correction monitor off set.

Curran Giddens

06-15-2007, 02:44 AM

Get a decent HD LCD that is fairly good sized and rent it as a premium directors monitor for 20% of its value a day. This also gives you a nice home TV for yourself.

Excellent post Finner! I could use a nice home TV for myself, this is just the excuse I needed! It's an investment in my biz ... yeah, that's it.... :innocent:

beatniq

06-15-2007, 08:40 AM

Japan is a little non-conventional in that most people live at home with their parents until they get married, so for them the salary is actually pretty good

Actually, you have it backwards.

It's America that is "a little unconventional." What you say about Japan is true of most places in this world except the U.S., where you are expected to live on your own after graduating college (or even H.S., if you don't go to college).

Just my $0.02 :)

Finner

06-15-2007, 08:48 AM

Great post Finner!

JVC's got a new 24" monitor that looks like it might be really good:
http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_item.php?articleId=196602806

Anybody got experience with this unit?

But perhaps a 1080P 40" consumer monitor is more impressive though less accurate...hmmm. I'd rather have the accuracy personally - it could do double duty as a color correction monitor off set.

IMO this monitor is too expensive for on set video village because the red is shooting raw and the image sent out to video village is not usually going to be the correct color correction that is choosen in red cine anyways. A 40"1080P monitor will blow away producers and directors as they have become use to a crappy film video tap that looks like garbage. I think a large HD (consumer model, but don't tell them that) will be the way to go.

Finner

06-15-2007, 08:49 AM

Actually, you have it backwards.

It's America that is "a little unconventional." What you say about Japan is true of most places in this world except the U.S., where you are expected to live on your own after graduating college (or even H.S., if you don't go to college).

Just my $0.02 :)

Sounds like you have done a lot of research on this. My bet is you live in the basement of your parents home.:tongue:

beatniq

06-15-2007, 08:57 AM

Sounds like you have done a lot of research on this. My bet is you live in the basement of your parents home.:tongue:

If by research, you mean being born in a foreign country, then yeah I guess you're right about that.

But no, I don't live in my parents basement. If I did live with my parents, however, I'd probably just take one of the spare rooms rather than live in that dingy basement. Though unfortunately, all those super-cool Americans who scrape by on their month-to-month wages would make witty "live in your parents basement" jokes and I'd have no life.

Finner

06-15-2007, 09:04 AM

beatniq

06-15-2007, 09:09 AM

Dingy- I lived in my parents basement until I was 21 and it was a kick ass basement. I moved out because I bought a house so personally I see a lot of americans making a smart choice to move out buy a house and start building equity and not just scrape by.

Wow. Well, good for you. Personally for me, I've never known anyone who could afford to buy clue, let alone a house, at the age of 21.

Usually, at that age, most of the people I knew were running around like headless chickens trying to figure out what in the hell to do with the rest of their lives after just having graduated from college.

Finner

06-15-2007, 09:15 AM

For many years it was myself and 3 roomates so thats how I made it work.

PaulClements

06-15-2007, 09:17 AM

People can't afford to buy a house in the UK at 41 let alone 21. My cousin buys property in america, he owns about 5 places at the last count, probably more now since he's been out there for the last couple of months. For the price he pays for them though he'd barely get a flat in London for all of them, even out in the sticks he'd probably only be able to get a 2 or 3 bedroom house for them. Collectively they return a far higher value in rent than that one place in the UK would though and he doesn't have a mortgage or anything to worry about either.

Point is the market is far different in the US than many other places, so it's easier to own.

Finner

06-15-2007, 09:34 AM

I understand that pain Paul. I worked on Shanghi Knights with a bunch of UK crew and we got talking about wages and cost of living and we were all a little shocked that the north american film wages for the same positions was higher and the cost of living here was a lot lower. Big cities here have had some changes over the last few years though. My current house has gone up over 4 times what it was worth 5 years ago. Friends of mine in their 30's that procrastinated and decided they did not want to have to make any sacrifices to their lifestyle now can no longer buy a house and now only buy a condo (flat) if they are lucky.

Curran Giddens

06-15-2007, 10:03 AM

I just moved back into my mom's house. Gotta save my pennies for all my RED gear. I'll probably rent a house sometime after I get my RED paid for but before the end of the year.

Roberto B

08-12-2007, 06:15 AM

here's again..

Jeremy Hughes

08-12-2007, 06:35 AM

Renting's too expensive because I'd shooting all of the time. So I will buy...

It's too bad I can't lease it.

Stephen Williams

08-12-2007, 07:07 AM

It's too bad I can't lease it.

Hi,

Sure you can, just talk to your leasing co.

Stephen

Roberto B

08-12-2007, 07:16 AM

Roberto B

08-14-2007, 11:41 AM

bump.. specially to you, stephen..

Stephen Williams

08-14-2007, 01:45 PM

"your leasing co"

ehehehehe

let me laugh..

you should think all have the same organisation as you have.. the world has so many colors stephen..

http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/jasons_smilie/jester.gif

Hi,

FWIW most banks have departments dedicated to 'leasing', I assumed you might have a bank account.

Stephen

PS wow I nearly missed 2 posts addressed to me!

Michael Brennan

08-14-2007, 01:50 PM

"your leasing co"

ehehehehe

let me laugh..

you should think all have the same organisation as you have.. the world has so many colors stephen..

http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/jasons_smilie/jester.gif

Stephen raises a valid way of owning equipment.
Leasing companies lease to one man bands so you can colour your own world with this piece of knowledge!

In the the UK, leasing companies who specialise in media kit won't ask for a "charge" over your cat, dog, lover or home your IF the equipment is established in the market or looks like it will become established.

The theory is that you pay a deposit so that if you default they can sell the equipment without incurring a loss. They are usually a bit cagey about new types of kit.

They will ask for a deposit and a business plan.
They buy the kit with their money (less your deposit)
They own the kit until you have paid it off.
You choose say two or three year lease terms.
You get to "have and hold" the kit, work it hard or leave it in is case.
As long as you pay the monthly premium they dont care.
They stipulate a decent contract if want to dry/wet hire it.
You must insure it and not trash it after a few months.
The lease payments are tax deductable. (but seek local tax advice!!)

Thats it, pretty easy.
All you need is a deposit and a business plan....

Mike Brennan

Roberto B

08-14-2007, 01:53 PM

I assumed you might have a bank account.

Stephen

PS wow I nearly missed 2 posts addressed to me!lol my personal's quote of the day.. sure.. got it.. :) i hate the establishment.. even on the art side.. i'm a free person.. too much for banks.. ehehehehe

John Doe

08-14-2007, 09:30 PM

Jonathan, I just believe in fair market value, not under-cutting.
....
At the end of the day, I just say do what feels right and live with it, just be prepared to hear other opinions on your practices as would be expected.

Just out of interest Alexander Nikishin, have you EVER bought a pair of nike shoes, an iPod, a korean car, anything from walmart, anything from kmart, anything from ANY clothing retailer? Have you ever bought GARLIC? Because even 85% or garlic in western nations is importedf from china, putting local farmers who cannot compete out of business.

If it wasn't for these retailers buying from china, india, bangladesh whose notorious sweatshops manage to undercut US labor and most other western labor, we'd still have our factory jobs.

So, out of interest - have you refrained from purchasing any such products to preserve jobs in your country and live by the standards you've set?