Shooting infrared

[Shane Betts]

A question for Jim and the RED Team.

Please excuse me if this has been covered elsewhere. Did a search but found nothing.

I've just discovered the joy of shooting infrared on my DSLR after having thought those days passed with the death of film. It strikes me that one could possibly shoot infrared on the RED too, which would make for some really cool images not often seen in the cinema. Think the time-lapse vignettes in Rumblefish...

The really cool thing about this is that, unlike a DSLR or a film camera, you would actually be able to operate the camera in IR mode as you're composing on an electronic VF.

Now I know the sensor will have an IR filter in place to prevent light in that spectrum softening focus but two questions for the guys.

1. Just how efficient is that filter? On my Nikon D200 it's there but can be exposed given sufficient time.

2. Obviously this would be a job for a qualified tech but any chance of an alternative sensor filter with lower IR properties so that, maybe, a 2nd unit camera could be modded for IR shooting?

One more question. Have I just ruined my chance of being the first one to include IR shots in a feature film? :-)

[Poi Boy]

Yes, having An Ir version would be very cool. I'm currently having my Nikon dslr converted to ir. bettsy, I'm pretty sure it would have to be an either or situation.
Aloha
-A

[Shane Betts]

Yes, having An Ir version would be very cool. I'm currently having my Nikon dslr converted to ir. bettsy, I'm pretty sure it would have to be an either or situation.
Aloha
-A

You don't to have it converted (the D200), you just need an IR filter and longer exposures. Works a treat! Have you tried with your DSLR to see if you can get an exposure? The IR filter is just there to keep the IR from exposing at normal exposure levels for the visible spectrum. It still sees it, jusy way down in exposure.

[Jason Murphy]

But using an opaque IR filter is going to be difficult if you're shooting at 1/48 of a second. And relegating IR shooting to timelapse only is obviously of limited usefulness, and something that may (possibly) be done just as well with a DSLR. But, I agree that the ability to shoot IR in 4K would be fantastic. Being able to make landscape images like the aerial shots in 'I Am Cuba' would be like a dream come true.

[Poi Boy]

You get better results ( more infra red look )if you convert and you have more exposure latitude.
Aloha
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[Shane Betts]

But using an opaque IR filter is going to be difficult if you're shooting at 1/48 of a second.

Absolutely and that is why I asked the question(s). If we could fit a non IR-excluding filter to the sensor we could get fairly conventional exposure times with an opaque IR filter on the lens. Don't forget, that opaque filter is only opaque because we can't see light in the IR spectrum. If our eyes could see IR the filter would look clear!

[Shane Betts]

You get better results ( more infra red look )if you convert and you have more exposure latitude.
Aloha
-A

Cool! When I can afford a spare (dedicated) body I'll look into it:-)

[Jason Murphy]

Was actually talking to another filmmaker friend of mine today about shooting IR, and he's looking into modding a Canon HV20 to shoot IR. Which I'm definitely interested in seeing, assuming he does it. Having a spare RED converted to shoot IR would be great, though. Just need that extra money.

[Shane Betts]

You know, it occurs to me that there is an opportunity here for the likes of Tiffen. This was never necessary in the film days (as the stock had limited spectral sensitivity) but with digital, manufacturers like RED could opt to leave the IR-exclusion filter off the sensor and recommend the fitment of one on the lens. (Maybe make a deal with the filter makers for OEM supply)

The filter makers could add an IR-ex filter to their range, maybe even couple it with UV. It'd be a clear filter like a UV and would limit transmission to the visible light spectrum, and of course protect the front element from damage.

The operator would then have the option of fitting an IR inclusion filter instead, for IR photography or even a UV inclusion filter that would see nothing but the UV spectrum. Who knows what it would look like but could be a bit of fun.

I mean that's the role of black and white filters and polarizers, to alter the image by limiting transmission of certain kinds of light. It seems that fitting IR-ex filters on the sensor is making a decision on the photographer's/cinematographer's behalf that they just might like to make themselves...

Any thoughts?

[Øystein Mamen, FNF]

That would definately have to be a behind-the-lens filter - It would be a major problem to never be able be able to shoot the lens "clean" - much more so a problem i motion pictures, where flare etc change with time. A definitive no-no.

This however, brings up the ability to mount any filters behind the lens on RED? I would love to back-net lenses, and not have to dream about the good old film days for this venerable practice.

[Zack Birlew]

Sorry to bring this thread back from the dead, but I just flipped through the new issue of Popular Photography (the one where they review the Nikon D3) and was stunned to see the images from the article on infrared photography. I thought, "How cool would that be to film in infrared?" Certainly it's an artistic choice, the article touched on many of the difficulties shooting in this mode, but it's one I'd definitely like to try for a film or two.

So, Jim, is this possible to implement? Can there possibly be some sort of alternating IR filter so we can have our cake (IR) and eat it too (normal)? Alternate sensor option/upgrade?

[Brook Willard]

I bet it'll be easier to retrofit now that the OLPF has been moved.

Assuming the IR filter is in the OLPF sandwich and not on the sensor block, that is.

[Jannard]

The sensor and OLPF are part of a sealed package. We need the experts to weigh in on possible options here. Oh... we are the experts. Let me ask.

Jim

[Jarred Land]

i shot some RED infaRED last week (without an IR filter) while Jim was off playing with his eagles...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/1_ir.jpg

Let me tell you though.. its not a simple process and to take out the IR.. not something you wanna do yourself. You will not only void the warranty, but it cannot be done without special tools and you have a 99% chance of screwing up something in the process, most likely the sensor ( as jim mentioned, everything is sealed ) , plus its extreamly time consuming of a process ( even more than I thought it would be ), and everything must be re-calibrated

If someone really wants an IR RED though, Jim might agree to selling one out of the factory as IR only...

[Ace]

Jarred that look is exquisite. How did it look in motion? Curious to see examples of this..

[Deanan]

The best to do it in a real camera would be to use an olpf with no IR cut filter.
But then you might want a monochrome sensor also :)

[Jarred Land]

I just flipped through the new issue of Popular Photography (the one where they review the Nikon D3) and was stunned to see the images from the article on infrared photography.

and i do not tell a lie.. that article is what inspired me to sacrifice my camera...

[Deanan]

And of course you used the adjustable mount to set backfocus to IR :)

[David Birdy]

The sensor and OLPF are part of a sealed package. We need the experts to weigh in on possible options here. Oh... we are the experts. Let me ask.

Jim

Jim,

As I'm sure you know most video cameras have a filter wheel for ND filters, Star filter etc.. Is it possible to add a filter wheel for the REDONE and include the IR filter?

P.S.
This forum is Brilliant...not as brillaint as the REDONE, but brillaint never the less!

[number6]

The best to do it in a real camera would be to use an olpf with no IR cut filter.
But then you might want a monochrome sensor also :)

Are there any apps out there that can get somewhere near that look? Is it something that can be coded?

[planet e]

i would loooove an IR camera that didn't need to be modded and came factory fresh...what about the possibility of an IR SCARLET? i'd buy one of those in a heartbeat, assuming that the footy will play nicely with my RED ONEs...

[Michael Brennan]

Jim,

As I'm sure you know most video cameras have a filter wheel for ND filters, Star filter etc.. Is it possible to add a filter wheel for the REDONE and include the IR filter?

P.S.
This forum is Brilliant...not as brillaint as the REDONE, but brillaint never the less!

David, the question of including a ND filter wheel and sliding verticle IR filter has been asked before, don't hold your breath!

Mike Brennan

[Jarred Land]

Jim,

As I'm sure you know most video cameras have a filter wheel for ND filters, Star filter etc.. Is it possible to add a filter wheel for the REDONE and include the IR filter?

P.S.
This forum is Brilliant...not as brillaint as the REDONE, but brillaint never the less!

oh great.. now your gonna get Deanan all worked up...

[Zack Birlew]

and i do not tell a lie.. that article is what inspired me to sacrifice my camera...

Holy cow what a coincidence!:w00t:

It's good to know that it can be done and, yeah, after looking at some tutorials online, I definitely wouldn't do it myself.

That must have been a difficult decision to make for your RED, Jarred. Thank you for being the brave pioneer of infrared RED 4K filming!

I just wish that this was a factory install option of some sort, especially if you could go back and forth. For instance, if I needed a project that I thought could use the look of infrared, I could pay a fee and send my camera in to have the sensor replaced with an IR one and, once the project's complete, send it back in, again for a fee, to have it replaced with the normal sensor. That would be a fantastic option I think.

[I Bloom]

and i do not tell a lie.. that article is what inspired me to sacrifice my camera...

Very cool.

I hope you can find the time to post a quicktime of IR in motion.

Ian

[oldphart]

oh great.. now your gonna get Deanan all worked up...

It is a nice idea, though.

Did you try to shoot colour IR yet?
Back in the 70's I shot some Ektachrome Aero Infrared (which I developed as negative). That stock was IR-sensitive in the red layer, while the green and blue were close to normal. I got some very interesting effects with it, including pictures that looked almost natural except for certain details.

[Deanan]

I never liked the look for color IR very much unless it you got just the right combination.

[Evin Grant]

Ooooooh, love the infra-red look. I'm a sucker for a beautiful B&W.

[diglloyd]

Converting a camera for infrared use will mean removing the sensor cover glass which blocks infrared, and replacing it with sensor glass that passes infrared (and for pure infrared use, blocks visible light). You might be able to get a place like maxmax.com to do this. But a conversion of this nature is not going to yield the same results in color unless you can obtain (and use) an identical filter over the lens post-conversion.

One would have to want IR performance specifically to modify an expensive camera this way, but it's really the only way to go for reasonable shutter speeds. Of course, that assumes that the IR-blocking sensor glass is not permanently bonded to the sensor, and could actually be removed/replaced.

IR exposures are about the same as visible light exposures once the IR-blocking glass is removed (and replaced with clear glass or visible-light-blocking-IR-passing glass). A focus shift will result in IR unless the lens is a SuperAchromat or really well corrected APO lens, even if the sensor glass is the same thickness. Hot spots and flare can also be very strong in IR, but highly dependent on the lens (see Zeiss ZF Prototype Lenses for Infrared (http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/free/Infrared/ZeissZF-prototypes-infrared.html)).

I’ve shot infrared for over five years now and I‘ve posted a lot of material on my website, diglloyd.com. This is a good page to start: Digital Infrared (http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/free/Infrared/infrared.html), as well as a variety of infrared articles and blog entries: _Search_ (http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Adiglloyd.com+infrared&box_1=infrared).

—Lloyd