Urgent need for lens advice!!! [Archive]

Zack Birlew

03-30-2009, 11:50 AM

Hey guys, well, it seems that I've got a problematic situation on my hands. I have my big "3-2-1" Chapman project for this semester coming up in about a couple of weeks and the location is in my house but, after doing some camera tests with my Nikon D90, it seems the 18mm end on my 18-200mm 3.5 DX zoom just isn't wide enough for the areas I'm trying to film in. I would try to reframe but every way I try to go at it just ends up with the same problem.

So, that brings me to lens options, the obvious choice being the Tokina 11-16mm 2.8 zoom for Nikon. However, of course it wouldn't be available right now ANYWHERE except from Hong Kong sales on eBay and not from the guy I know. Now I'm in a pickle and I don't know how to go about it. I didn't want to spend too much money on this short project, hence the $560-ish Tokina, but it seems I may not have any other choice unless it gets in stock somewhere from now until the time I have to shoot.

The scene is at night with maybe only one 2K or two 1K lights coming in through the windows for moonlight, so the lens has to be fast, and I'm working on a Nikon D90, take that as you will. I want a lens that will carry over to a RED One/Scarlet/Epic, the Tokina at least offered the 15-16mm range, so that cuts out some other choices that might have worked.

Right now I'm looking at the possibility of either going with the 14mm 2.8 Nikon prime because it's manual and that'll help tame the D90's automatic ways or opting for the 14-24mm 2.8 Nikon zoom and working with that as it seems to be the best Nikon lens right now and it gives me some zoom range if 14mm isn't quite right. I really thought about the Sigma 10-20mm lens but, based on the reviews, it just wasn't what I was looking for. So, what do you guys think? Any alternatives or advice? Know of anywhere I can get a Tokina (preferably today)?

(P.S. Didn't quite know where to put this thread, Off Topic, Lens Test, or maybe even Jobs/Equipment? Dunno.)

David W. Jones

03-30-2009, 12:09 PM

If it were me, rather than spending cash on a school project, I would just re-think the shot and use the tools I had.

Sanjin Jukic

03-30-2009, 12:15 PM

http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/lineup/lens/af/zoom/af-s_zoom14-24mmf_28g/img/pic_001_l.jpg

Nikon 14-24mm G: the best ever DSLR rig for landscape and architecture. (http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/canon14l2_nikon1424/nikon1424_canon14l2_a.html)

Douglas Underdahl

03-30-2009, 01:27 PM

I bought an 11-16 Tokina from Adorama, I think. It took a while, like a week for it to be in stock. Couldn't get it from B and H. Someone gave Matsuyia on eBay a sterling review here and I was going to order from them but they were out of stock . . . The 14-24 gets rave reviews from everyone. It's pricey, though, but maybe more available? I have the 17-55 DX and in tandem with the 11-16, takes care of a lot. I also have some Nikon 1.4 and 2 primes for speed, and a friend with Zeiss speeds when the chips are really down. I guess none of this solves your problem, but I do recommend the 11-16. Buy it now even if you have to wait a week, and use it on the next project. Try to rent the 14-24. Also, the russian 16mm Zenitar is heap cheap and works.

Sanjin Jukic

03-30-2009, 01:37 PM

On RED1 that has crop factor 1.7 to FF35 Tokina 11-16mm has about 18.7-27.2mm Angle of View...even Nikon 17-35mm real FF35 zoom lens is much better (expensive)...

Something better always available:

http://www.slach.at/shop/images/W2_AF-SP-14mm-2,8.jpg

There is still Tamron 14mm f/2.8 analog FF35mm (for Nikon F and Canon EF dumb/Birger/Wicked Circuits-Alesniak) available officially from many Tamron resellers.

Expensive about Euro 1.500...

Steve Gibby

03-30-2009, 01:53 PM

Zack,

I bought my Tokina 11-16, in Nikon mount, a month ago, right over the counter at a photography store close by you in Southern California. It was $560, and the store paid the sales tax.

The 11-16 is very crisp, wide open, and at all focal lengths. I like it! Great value - especially for the price. I use mine with the Underdahl Nikon DX mount - and it has worked very well.

If you PM me, I'll ping you back the info on the store and the salesman to contact. Could be he has another sitting in the stockroom.

Jeff Kilgroe

03-30-2009, 03:18 PM

I'm with David in post #2... Use what you have. Come up with more creative camera angles, framing, etc..

But if you insist on spending some money, the Tokina is a pretty good way to go. It's a "DX" format lens, so does not cover FF35 -- it comes close at 15~16mm, but just not quite. It does however cover the full "DX" sensor of the D90.

Sanjin brings up a good point about FOV between the different lenses, but this only applies if you have different cameras available so you can choose which one to shoot this or other projects on. An 18mm lens is an 18mm lens, regardless. The apparent FOV only changes based on your sensor or film format. What he's saying is that an 11mm on a DX sensor gives you roughly the same FOV as an 18mm on a FF35 sensor. But that really doesn't mean much if you're locked in to using a DX sized D90 or a RED One, etc..

The Tokina 11-16 is a little hard to find, but if you order one now you may have it in time. Gibby's tip may help you get one. A local camera store here had one last week and I almost bought it. If I were smart, I'd go back and get it. If they still have it...

Sanjin Jukic

03-30-2009, 04:17 PM

Tokina lens still has 11-16mm x 1.5 = (or can show 16.5-24mm at DoF FF35mm) with Canon crop format.

It's not wide enough...

You'll get it wider with Nikon 17-35mm full FF35mm lens (also with manual focus/aperture control)...

If you have go to count FF35mm the widest and without fish eye sort of distortion effect you have to stop about 14mm at FF35mm.

The wider to go is to get a straight lines a bit curved for still lens design that is a difficult to manage without distortion at any further DoF size.

Only you get curved lines like at all (lovely) fish eye lens offers.

S35mm 3 or 4 perforation film maybe could get that straight lines (???) but in any other option at full FF35mm not at all.

That's all about the rules of lens physics.

Everything that is beyond or even before that is a pure manipulation in a different way(s)...of a pure marketing pot of lies...

Peter Hodgins

03-30-2009, 04:25 PM

I would try to reframe ... So, what do you guys think? Any alternatives or advice?"reframing" is the way to go ...knock some holes into your walls ... then cover them with paintings ... if you have to shoot from across the line.

Nils J. Nesse

03-30-2009, 04:42 PM

Tokina lens still has 11-16mm x 1.5 = (or can show 16.5-24mm at DoF FF35mm) with Canon crop format.

It's not wide enough...

You'll get it wider with Nikon 17-35mm full FF35mm lens (also with manual focus/aperture control)...

Sanjin, I'm trying to understand your point, but it's difficult.

The Tokina 11-16 will be wider than the Nikon 17-35 on a D90, or a Red One.

Sanjin Jukic

03-30-2009, 05:04 PM

Sanjin, I'm trying to understand your point, but it's difficult.

The Tokina 11-16 will be wider { F*CK } than the Nikon 17-35 on a D90, or a Red One.
Nils,

sorry but now you should go back to school:

Canon EOS 5D vs. Canon EOS 20D — Full-Frame vs. APS-C sensors>>> (http://photo.net/equipment/canon/fullframe/)

or

What Camera Should I Buy? > APS-C vs FF 35mm (http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=603247&forum_id=87)

or

simply Nikon FF35mm to APS-C or Nikon DX sensor crop factor is 1.6x

Tokina zoom starts at 11mm (APS-C tricky 11mm that is at starting point at 17.6mm for FF35)

and now please Nils don't drive me crazy because I do not have more time to explain...

get it right or not...

R1 crop factor is EVEN about 1.7x 11 = 18.7mm with Tokina 11mm ...so you could count please...

Nils J. Nesse

03-30-2009, 05:15 PM

I know all this, the 11-16 is still wider than the 17-35 on the camera in question.

Sanjin Jukic

03-30-2009, 05:18 PM

Show me the example stills... of both to compare!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nils J. Nesse

03-30-2009, 05:47 PM

Well I used to own both, but now only have the 17-35. The 11-16 was too wide for me on my DX camera.

teamgoo

03-30-2009, 09:38 PM

the tokina is not a full frame 35mm lens. It is a DX lens made for the smaller DX sensor so there is no multiplier. There is only a crop factor if you are a FF stills photographer referencing the FOV of a FF stills lens on a FF sensor or Film camera, but for the rest who are used to S35 or the RED there is no difference in FOV.

Zack Birlew

03-31-2009, 08:54 AM

Well, the thought also occurred to me to use maybe a 24mm 2.0 AIS with a 0.7x wide angle adapter to get roughly 16mm-on-the-edge-of-17mm or maybe get a 20mm 2.8 AIS and putting a wide angle adapter on that because it's just a few milimeters difference, probably I need 13-15mm more than 11mm. That might do the trick plus it will be manual, but I worry that the wide angle adapter might vignette on the lenses due to them being so wide.

However, I'm going to wait a bit before deciding. I have been experimenting with camera angles and everything again and again and I've found some solutions but they may not have the same impact I was hoping for and, ultimately, that may be what I have to do.

Joel Kaye

03-31-2009, 09:51 AM

However, I'm going to wait a bit before deciding.

Can you rent a lens for the days you need it? Seems to me that would be the cheapest/easiest solution.

Zack Birlew

03-31-2009, 09:54 AM

Joel Kaye

03-31-2009, 10:00 AM

No place to rent SLR lenses as far as I know. Plus we're not allowed to rent outside equipment for these projects (I know, dumb as heck) due to some problems some other students had last semester or something.

I guess the second part kills the idea, but I'm surprised there is no place to rent a SLR lens in the LA area (rental capital of the world). Heck, I can do that in Phoenix.

I like the idea of creatively shooting around it - that's what student projects are for anyhow. Perhaps you could stitch 2 shots together in post and be really crafty in your solution.

Jeff Kilgroe

03-31-2009, 10:16 AM

Most decent camera shops will rent gear. But since you can't do that.... Maybe you could borrow a lens?

Peter Strietmann

03-31-2009, 10:23 AM

Most decent camera shops will rent gear. But since you can't do that.... Maybe you could borrow a lens?

Yes, borrow a lens. http://borrowlenses.com/

I'm not affiliated with this company, I've had friends use it and they were very happy with them.

Best, Peter.

Florian Stadler

03-31-2009, 11:09 AM

Jeff Kilgroe

03-31-2009, 11:57 AM

Yes, borrow a lens. http://borrowlenses.com/

Hehe. Interesting.

SANJIN: STOP YOUR CROP FACTOR CONFUSION AND GET IT RIGHT

Amen.

Sanjin Jukic

03-31-2009, 12:38 PM

Samy's in L.A. will certainly rent you lenses. They require a credit card deposit of the value of the lens.

SANJIN: STOP YOUR CROP FACTOR CONFUSION AND GET IT RIGHT: HE IS SHOOTING ON A D90. THE D90's SENSOR SIZE DOES NOT CHANGE. A 11mm will ALWAYS be WIDER on the same Sensor than a 17mm. Hes is NOT shooting on a FF35 sensor.

Florian,

It's difficult to know what are you talking about....

but whatever just have a look at the picture below again were 11mm on (APS-C >>>Nikon 90) is equivalent to 17mm (FF35>>>Nikon D3X) and wider about 1 degree (103 vs 104) :), so that means "probably" I am and maybe even Tamron spreading confusion herel!!!!!!! :biggrin::wink:

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/AnglesOfView.jpg

Also I am a bit surprised that even some moderators here (Jeff Kilgroe) didn't get a right point about crop factor.

Roberto B

03-31-2009, 03:13 PM

sj be careful.. w/ jeff only a word.. he's jarred's man for cleaning the house.. respect :cool:

jimhare

03-31-2009, 03:25 PM

Sanjin,

Aren't you just saying that a full frame sensor using a full frame lens will have a larger area than cropped?

If you are using a cropped sensor (which we are) with non FF35 lenses, the result will be the same.

It sounds like all you are saying is don't try to use the Tokina with a FF sensor, which no one is suggesting.

I think you will find that a FF and non FF lens will look the same on the Red and D90, due to the sensor.

That's all I get from your graph and description.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.

I have the Tokina and it's wicked wide, even on a cropped sensor.

Jeff Kilgroe

03-31-2009, 07:46 PM

Sanjin, I understand the crop factor between the two sensors. But that is irrelevant here. Zack is shooting this on the D90. It's true that a 17mm lens with full-frame coverage will give him a wider FOV when mounted on a FF35 camera as opposed to an 11mm lens mounted on the D90, but that doesn't matter or help here. A 17mm lens on the D90 gives a narrower FOV than the 11mm lens, so I don't understand what you are trying to tell us here.

Your image above is great, it shows that a 17mm focal length on the APS-C format would have about a 75 degree FOV and the 11mm would have a 103 degree FOV.

Perhaps it's a language barrier, but Nils, Florian and I all read your post as if you were saying the 17-35mm FF35 lens would give Zack a wider FOV. Which it would if he were shooting on a FF35 camera, because the Tokina does not cover FF35. However, he's not, he's shooting on the D90... So I don't understand where you're coming from with this...

he's jarred's man for cleaning the house.. respect :cool:

Haha... :beer:

Alexander Nikishin

03-31-2009, 08:24 PM

There really should be a crop factor for dummies book. =)

Sanjin Jukic

04-01-2009, 06:03 AM

It's very easy to get in clash :head_explode: (also to look stupid :yikes: ) with some people here who didn't try out many different still lenses on RED1 as I did.

As you all know very well that I do have an universal mount on my RED1 and can put almost any existing still photo or cine lens on that.

And I was experimenting with many lenses and still continuing with that.

Some guys recommended Zack to get Tokina 11-16mm. Fine. But also he found out that he couldn't get it right away. Lucky him!?

The clash and confusion here was made because I have some doubts about using APS-C super or ultra wide angle lenses like a focal lengths 10mm, 11mm, etc... for moving images.

My tests with Canon 10-22mm that is optically much better than Tokina 11-16mm (for still photography) showed me a "funny perspective" type of distortions when moving image is involved.

video test example 1>>> (http://www.purgatorymagazine.com/_downloads/lenstests/IMS_RED_Canon_zooms_02.mov)

I continued to (re)search and did some tests with Voightleander 12 f/5.6 and 15 f/4 Leica-M mount FF35 lenses.

Both of them showed vignetting on RED1. Voightleander 15mm f/4 was better performing and compared to Canon 10-22mm zoom

has pretty good or even a normal perspective feeling without much of optical distortion. It's a pity that vignetting...

video test example 2>>> (http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Voigthleander15mmHelier2.mov)

And to repeat again:

Actually I wanted to explain here (maybe still unsuccessfully) that field of view, field of vision, angle of view or angle of coverage (whatever you call it)

is not so pleasant using some of super-wide APS-C designed lenses (mostly zooms) like a 10mm, 11mm or 12mm on R1.

There really should be a crop factor for dummies book. =)

Also for sort of "angry" supermen guys like a ... there is one picture above (http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/AnglesOfView.jpg) that is easy to use instead of "a crop factor for dummies book" :sifone:

Iannis Holwech

04-01-2009, 09:40 AM

Maybe this is a good alternative?
Sigma Zoom Super Wide Angle 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM Autofocus Lens for Nikon AF (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=search&A=search&Q=&shs=sigma+12-24-mm+f-4.5-5.6+ex+dg&ci=989)

Easy to sell afterwards if keeping it breaks the bank.
Covers FF35 so you are more secure of the sharpness of the sides on a crop sensor.
Some samples have problems with being unsharp on one side so check carefully before buying, but when the sample is ok, it's very good.

14mm Group Test - Canon 14mm f2.8 L vs. Nikon 14mm f2.8 EDIF vs.
Sigma 12-24mm f4.5-5.6 DG (http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/14mm/14mm_test.html)

jimhare

04-01-2009, 02:11 PM

That's all fine, I don't have these problems on my R1 with the Tokina. Wildly wide, razor sharp even at 11mm, no vignetting, only great images, great price.

Nothing to complain about in my book.

And to repeat again:

Actually I wanted to explain here (maybe still unsuccessfully) that field of view, field of vision, angle of view or angle of coverage (whatever you call it)

is not so pleasant using some of super-wide APS-C designed lenses (mostly zooms) like a 10mm, 11mm or 12mm on R1.

Sanjin Jukic

04-01-2009, 02:22 PM

That's all fine, I don't have these problems on my R1 with the Tokina. Wildly wide, razor sharp even at 11mm, no vignetting, only great images, great price.

Nothing to complain about in my book.

Canon 10-22mm (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/Canon-10-22mm-test.shtml) is even sharper and better than Tokina 11-16mm but show me

your any footage with slow panning, then how somebody diagonally crossing in from of the camera or similar dynamic movement examples.

Everything there turned "ugly" is produced by a slight barrel distortion at 10mm with Canon or 11mm with Tokina in case.

Also not talking about fixed camera shots.

jimhare

04-01-2009, 02:34 PM

Happy to.

As part of a six Red live shoot, I had the Tonina on a jib that was moving all night. Not once did I experience any warping or other issues. The results were spectacular.

Zack Birlew

04-01-2009, 06:18 PM

Okay guys, good news, the local Samy's Camera got ONE in today and I drove over and picked it up. Thankfully, it does exactly what I want for the project and as a surprise bonus, I tried putting my Panasonic anamorphic adapter on it and it worked at 16mm. Imagine that, a 16mm anamorphic!!! Needless to say there was warping in the middle if the subject was too close but otherwise it was aspherical, so if you wanted a landscape or special shot that you couldn't get wide enough, the Tokina will do the job!

Unfortunately, the class project I'm working on doesn't call for anamorphics, especially since I'll be filming at night, but maybe I'll try it later on something else. Thanks for your help and support guys, I'm glad I have this messageboard to go to.

Shawn R

04-01-2009, 10:18 PM

Sanjin, what is your background aside from putting different lenses on your Red 1?

Do you rent out your camera package? Do you shoot commercials? Documentary? Are you working on anything right now?

Steve Gibby

04-01-2009, 10:44 PM

Zack,

I'm glad the referral contact I PM'd to you at that Samy's store in OC worked out for you. That's where I bought my Tokina 11-16 a month ago - and it was just about the best $550 I've ever spent - love the lens.

Good luck on your project...

teamgoo

04-02-2009, 05:18 AM

Sanjin, what is your background aside from putting different lenses on your Red 1?

Do you rent out your camera package? Do you shoot commercials? Documentary? Are you working on anything right now?

It appears his full time job is confusing people on this board while at the same time trying to make every stills photography lens on the planet equal to a cine lens in form, function and performance.

Stills lenses have their uses in certain productions, I have several sets, but it is a very limited use for narrative unless properly rehoused mechanically. Glass quality is only half the battle.

Steve Gibby

04-02-2009, 07:20 AM

I think its important to keep in mind that narrative is but one genre among a broad array of genres that RED One (and Epic/Scarlet) has, is, and will be used for...thus all the interest and info on 35mm stills lenses on this forum...and for use in most of those non-narrative genres, re-housing of 35mm stills lenses, and the addition of cine-style accessories simply isn't a necessity, and in many genres they are flat out undesirable for it.

If all you do is narrative, and you just want to use cine lenses, and shoot cine-style, fine, that's your prerogative. Go for it! But there are a ton of us here who shoot in all three imaging disciplines as needed: cine, EFP, and 35mm stills - and our lens needs vary widely throughout those disciplines.

Keeping in mind the diverse genres of production these cameras are used for, there really is no "right" lens type or "wrong" lens type to use on RED One, Epic, and Scarlet - but merely a right or wrong type for each production or portion thereof.

Sanjin gets really experimental with his lenses - but at least he's thinking about diverse possibilities, testing out combinations, and keeping an open mind in his approach to RED. I like that, and I think it helps someone maximize the flexibility and utility of the RED line of cameras.

Sanjin Jukic

04-02-2009, 07:58 AM

Guys,

don't worry so much what I'm writing, also what I'm doing in my life because as

I said already before it is a sort of "surrealist" approach that trying this (crazy) real world get explained through the moving images :hippie: (!!!? ).

Also I've just got my Tokina 11-16mm F/2.8 ASPH. AT-X 116 PRO DX.

It's mounted on 16:9 Nikon G (http://www.16-9.net/nikon_g/) rotating adapter and then on IMS for Canon EOS on RED1.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Tokina11-16mm1.JPG
Tokina 11-16mm F/2.8 ASPH. AT-X 116 PRO DX on RED1.

http://homepage.mac.com/sanjinjukic/RED/Tokina11-16mm2.JPG
Tokina 11-16mm F/2.8 ASPH. AT-X 116 PRO DX on RED1.

A short test hand-held footage shot on RED1 is coming soon (maybe even today at early evening).

Stay tuned.

Also many thanks to Gibby for his kind support and explanation of my experimental efforts here :thumbsup:.

Steve Gibby

04-02-2009, 09:25 AM

No worries Sanjin...

By the way, I agree with Jim Hare's post above. The stock Tokina 11-16 on RED has performed extremely well for me - no weirdness in the footage. Any extreme wide angle lens, when you shoot from certain high and low angles, gives an exaggerated perspective to the shot. I've used my Tokina 11-16 on RED indoors and out, to shoot sports, scenics, people, etc. - with no perspective or motion characteristics I wouldn't expect and get from any of my other wide angle lenses I use on RED.

The Tokina 11-16 is crisp, and has good contrast. It would be an excellent lens for several times the price they charge. I like it, and I use it a lot on RED now - with excellent results.

Kwan Khan

04-02-2009, 09:35 AM

Hummm.
Cinewalt uploaded video clip (Tokina 11-16mm, Mantis and Easy Rig)
(Note: Video will take time to load)
http://www.rent-a-red.com/WideLens.mov

Steve Gibby

04-02-2009, 10:10 AM

To be clear, the Tokina 11-16 is not a true rectilinear lens. At its widest (11mm) you will get some barrel distortion, and as I previously touched on briefly, when using a lens that wide at very low (looking upward as in Cinewalt's tilt up to the street signs and buildings), and high (looking downward) angles you will accentuate distortion - again, nothing unusual for an extreme wide angle lens, unless it is a true rectilinear lens ultra-wide, like the ARRI 8R. To minimize bending you shoot more at mid-angles to the suject matter - or in certain creative shots and genres of production you sometimes actually shoot from high and low angles seeking that barrel distortion and line bending in your shots.

Unless I missed something, I don't see anything in Cinewalt's video that doesn't fit into what I described previously, and in the paragraph above - all expected characteristics of an extreme wide angle lens that is not fully rectilinear.

With the Tokina 11-16, barrel distortion is most pronounced at 11mm, much less at 12mm, and effectively disappears from 13mm to 16mm. Knowing that, you use the focal length, field of view, and barrel distortion (or lack thereof) you want for each shot sequence. Those new to shooting super wide angle lenses have a learning curve to maximize the positive attributes of the lens - and to avoid the nuances of barrel distortion, etc. - unless it is one of the rare true rectilinear ultra wide angle lenses.