16GB Cards - Gamma Space

[mikeburton]

Hey all,

I'm on a feature as a DIT/RED TECH. Here is our issue I'm finding.
We are shooting in REDSPACE. We are using two 16GB cards for the majority of our shooting. Randomly, I noticed two different cameras have kicked from REDSPACE to REC709. When I say randomly I mean randomly, sometimes after battery changes, sometimes after a mag change and sometimes only a few clips will be REC709 and some will be REDSPACE. I think it has to do with one of our 16GB cards but its hard to diagnose when its this inconsistent. I have never had this issue before on my camera and we had experienced this issue with our other primary camera as well. Serials #2322 and #5252. Its really annoying and have never heard of this issue before nor seen it anywhere else on other jobs. Anyone else experienced anything similar? Build 17 release and build 18 beta both exhibit this issue.
Could it possibly not be the cards but the battery plate? I'm kinda at a loss trying to narrow down this issue. Any help would be much appreciated.

EDIT: So I spoke with the good folks at RED and we seem to think the logical explanation to this could be the Panasonic BTLH1700W Monitor we have connected through the ET Breakout Box in HDSDI. Of course this is not for sure but it would make sense as it is the only logical explanation IMO. If the monitor is attempting to receive a 709 image for display and the camera is providing a REDSPACE signal there could be some confusion and forcing the camera from REDSPACE into REC709. Or just that the camera is attempting to send a REC709 Signal therefore kicking the Gamma Space into REC709.

BTW: This is not really a complaint, RED service has been great, just wanted to see if anyone else out there experienced the same issue.

[Cail Young]

Do you have a button assigned to VIEW RAW? It's possible it isn't toggling back to the correct curve from RAW.

[Greg M]

are you talking about the display output?

Are you sure its not assigned to a button that was accidentally hit?

its just a toggle switch

[mikeburton]

are you talking about the display output?

Are you sure its not assigned to a button that was accidentally hit?

Its in the "view" Menu, REDSPACE, REC709, RAW gamma that is changing in Camera.

Positive. I do have User Assignable button #1 as view RAW but believe me, we have not hit that button and left it there. We are always monitoring in REDSPACE accept when the cameras randomly skip to REC709. Even if we did do that, it should stay in RAW not REC709 after reboot.
I have done many a gigs and never seen this issue until this show. I really am thinking it has to do with the particular monitor we are using and some kind of weird firmware/signal issue. Not sure though.

[Greg M]

We are shooting in REDSPACE.

You are shooting RAW, you are only viewing REDSPACE.

16GB cards would have noting to do with this, and the Panasonic Monitor accepts an HD signal, it could careless whether its redspace or RAW.

Have you tried saving the camera settings to disk and reloading them?

[mikeburton]

Yes, your right we are viewing in REDSPACE, excuse my sentence to the contrary. I have reloaded the firmware on both cameras, twice, still with the same result. Also, both cameras are not skipping the next reel automatically like they should even after I "reset" the reel. It will skip to the next reel like its supposed to for the first two-three mags then not skip anymore.
I didn't really think it was the cards and after speaking with RED we figured it could be the monitor however, the HD-SDI is a one way street to the monitor not back to camera so although it doesn't make logical sense that it would be the monitor I can't determine what else may be the issue. If it was only a problem on one of the cameras I wouldn't think twice about it but since its happening on both I've got to assume that there is some kind of firmware bug or incompatibility/signal issue. What it could be, I'm baffled right now.

[Casey Green]

I too thought that perhaps one or more of your User Keys was set to toggle the Color Space. I'd double check that, just in case.

[mikeburton]

I too thought that perhaps one or more of your User Keys was set to toggle the Color Space. I'd double check that, just in case.

Checked, double checked and triple checked. The only user assignable button that I have checked for toggling RAW is user button 1. Trust me, I've looked for everything that might be out of place and cannot find anything out of the ordinary. All my user settings are the same as they have always been that have never had this issue before this current gig.

[Florian Stadler]

There is a BUG in build 17: If you have the SYSTEM:PLAYBACK:LOOK: set to CLIP instead of CAMERA, the camera switches to Rec709 after doing playback. It will display Redspace in the View menu but record Metadata as Rec709 and also display Rec709 on the monitors. I've discovered this a while ago and my AC/DIT in Minneapolis tested it on other cameras and found this to be true as well. He has notified Red about this.
The workaround is simple: Set playback to Camera and only switch playback to Clip when neccesary. If you do that switch, make sure to reset it to camera afterwards and also reset view to Redspace.

Hope that helps, has nothing to do with 16GB cards...

[mikeburton]

There is a BUG in build 17: If you have the SYSTEM:PLAYBACK:LOOK: set to CLIP instead of CAMERA, the camera switches to Rec709 after doing playback. It will display Redspace in the View menu but record Metadata as Rec709 and also display Rec709 on the monitors. I've discovered this a while ago and my AC/DIT in Minneapolis tested it on other cameras and found this to be true as well. He has notified Red about this.
The workaround is simple: Set playback to Camera and only switch playback to Clip when neccesary. If you do that switch, make sure to reset it to camera afterwards and also reset view to Redspace.

Hope that helps, has nothing to do with 16GB cards...

My saving grace!!! If this works I am going to jump up and down and send you a bouquet of flowers, (or beer/wine whichever you like:) I do have my playback set to clip since we are doing looks in camera.

[Cail Young]

Also, both cameras are not skipping the next reel automatically like they should even after I "reset" the reel. It will skip to the next reel like its supposed to for the first two-three mags then not skip anymore.

Please detail exactly your process from start to finish:

1) How do you set the first card's reel
2) How do you format subsequent cards
3) How do you erase cards
4) How do you reformat used cards in-camera

Also, are you the only person doing the formatting?

[Florian Stadler]

I assume this solved your problems? I take a bottle of red over flowers anytime....

:)

[mikeburton]

Please detail exactly your process from start to finish:

1) How do you set the first card's reel
2) How do you format subsequent cards
3) How do you erase cards
4) How do you reformat used cards in-camera

Also, are you the only person doing the formatting?

1. As for the formatting, I reset the reel first (say beginning of the shoot/day) to whatever reel # we are on ie 1 or 137.
2. Every other time after that I format in the "Media" - "Format" menu. However, I have become used to checking to see that the mag jumps automatically and check it manually before formatting in the "Media" - "Change" Menu. If I see that it jumped to the next reel as I expected it to I jump out of the "Change" Menu and into the "Media" - "Format" to format the card which works just fine. Unfortunately, I notice that it doesn't always jump forward to the next mag # when I check it in the "Change" menu. Usually, this happens after about 2-3 formats of successful format changes. In this situation I do one of two things depending on the situation,
1. If I have time I reset the reel to whatever reel # I on.

2. If I'm being hurried to shoot I will format in the "Change" Menu although the mag never jumps forward after that nor do i expect it to.

3. After downloading I erase the cards by sending the media on the cards to the trash and empty trash on my laptop.

4. Then, I reformat the media in the camera.

[mikeburton]

I assume this solved your problems? I take a bottle of red over flowers anytime....

:)

The DP doesn't want to change the "Clip" to "Camera" setting since he is doing a lot of looks in camera that change. I will test this weekend.

However, just you acknowledging that this problem has presented itself to you in the past has taken the weight of the issue off my mind and allowed me to explain the issue to the DP. Send me a PM where to send the bottle. I've got a friend who works in St. Helena at a new Winery so hopefully you'll like the one I choose.

[Cail Young]

I have become used to checking to see that the mag jumps automatically and check it manually before formatting in the "Media" - "Change" Menu.

See what happens if you never go into that menu. I have a feeling there might be a bug involved with "checking" that value (when in fact you may be setting a value) before returning to the normal format function.

Furthermore, if the camera is not assigning reel numbers correctly, you should always use the RESET menu - I don't really know why the CHANGE menu is there. I've never needed to set a reel number out of sequence.


3. After downloading I erase the cards by sending the media on the cards to the trash and empty trash on my laptop.

Try changing the volume name to UNTITLED as well. Are you removing the .profile files?

[mikeburton]

See what happens if you never go into that menu. I have a feeling there might be a bug involved with "checking" that value (when in fact you may be setting a value) before returning to the normal format function.

Furthermore, if the camera is not assigning reel numbers correctly, you should always use the RESET menu - I don't really know why the CHANGE menu is there. I've never needed to set a reel number out of sequence.



Try changing the volume name to UNTITLED as well. Are you removing the .profile files?

Yes, when I delete a card I discard all the media and profile files. I will try a reset and not checking the REEL # before formating. Problem is, when I have less than 30secs to change mags while everyone is staring at me on set it makes it a pain to have to reformat again if the card doesn't automatically jump to the next reel #.
Problem also with the "RESET" menu is that the reel always defaults to 1 and we are on reel 227 right now. It literally takes over a minute to have to dial up to the 200's which is sometimes not possible due to the nature of certain scenes. On the other hand "Change" will at least be close to the last reel # hence quicker to dial and format.
Why wouldn't "Change" allow the reel to progress though? Maybe if your right, selecting "Change" will allow you to progress if you don't check the "Change" reel before formating again? I'll try and test these theories later today.

[Florian Stadler]

Mike,

You can still do all the looks you want in camera when the playback menu is set to camera. The only time you need to switch to clip is when you play back an old clip and the in camera settings have already changed. I don't imagine that would happen a lot since it's advisable to change mags after every scene?
Viewing and exposing in rec709 when you think it's Redspace is extremely dangerous and will result in very inconsistent dailies and extended color matching work in Online.

[Zakaree Sandberg]

ive had this issue on a few occasions.

[mikeburton]

Mike,

You can still do all the looks you want in camera when the playback menu is set to camera. The only time you need to switch to clip is when you play back an old clip and the in camera settings have already changed. I don't imagine that would happen a lot since it's advisable to change mags after every scene?
Viewing and exposing in rec709 when you think it's Redspace is extremely dangerous and will result in very inconsistent dailies and extended color matching work in Online.

The DP and I were both aware of "Clip" VS. "Camera" playback and its functionality and went over it in prep. The DP's decision to keep the camera on "Clip" after your help troubleshooting the issue was cause we are making a lot of color adjustments in camera (in the same scenes) and wanted to make sure the director saw the correct color settings/metadata for each individual clip without having to waste time switching to "Clip" from "Camera" in the menus when the director calls for immediate playback. We have a few big stars on set and we didn't want to waste any time.
I made mention of the one stop difference between REDSPACE and REC709 to my DP and he and I are well aware of the issues that can occur later in the post pipeline if we process in REDSPACE but have exposed for 709. Luckily, I am timing every shot for dallies by creating RSX files in REDALERT and processing 1080p ProResHQ files. For the files that came into REDALERT REC709 I am changing to REDSPACE and adjusting exposure accordingly and accurately. We haven't got hosed by it yet luckily and have now rectified the situation by putting the camera in "PlayBack" - "Camera" instead of "Clip" and just living with the current camera metadata settings. It has solved the issue and we are consistent with our colorspace and all is happy, mostly. Now if only we had a longer lunch break:-)
Thank you Florian for your expertise and I hope you enjoy the bottle I send over to you shortly.

[Harry Clark]

Good thread guys. Nice troubleshooting.
Cheers,
Harry

[Justin McAleece]

it happened to me a few times this weekend and I was doing playback and had a panny 17" but it sounds like it's definitely the playback setting so I will switch that and see what happens. thanks a lot - Justin.

[mikeburton]

Switching from Playback, Clip to Playback, Camera will solve all your issues, no doubt.