Suggestions for improving RED

[najafi/didarfilm]

Hi REDs

although RED would be the best solution , but i have some idea to improve it:

1- Mechanical Shutter :the thing that DoPs like it so much , becouse it's their sole immediate connection to the natural raw image. VIPER and DALSA have it.
2- Bayar Pattern : it has been proven that Bayar Pattern is not a good equivelant for developer liquid , we would encounter real problems and artifacts transcoding the image by Bayar Pattern.
3- Higher Frame Rates : although 60fps in full resolution is acceptable for high-speed cinematography but it's compeletly clear that cinematographers would require it so soon , and we would see them after having RED that are working in 35mm just becouse of frame rate.

thanks
hossein najafi

[Zakaree Sandberg]

i know a mechanical shutter would cost more money and possibly make the body larger.. were getting alot for 17,5

[Mark Thorpe]

I'm not pestering anyone but with so many 'how to improve RED' posts out there I suggest we wait to see what the guys come up with before we start asking for improvements.

The whole RED team have done a sterling job, taking a dream and turning that into a reality (almost). For what they have achieved at this stage deserves a massive dose of gratitude and thanks. Taking on this venture was an open invitation to failure but they are a determined bunch who's collective skills and knowledge reflect the very leading edge of imagery acquisition and workflow protocols.

I would imagine at this stage in the game there is hardly any space left to even contemplate too many changes in the final appearance / ability of RED. So whilst some of the points raised in the past few weeks may be valid and have credibility I would like to suggest we all just get behind the guys as they get into the back straightaway and cheer them on even harder, positive feedback for a positive result.

Cheers,
Mark.

P.S I'm sure Jim and the gang will be open to building in all the extras people have suggested in RED ONE 1.0.1. That is of course once they have released their Ultra Primes range of glass for both 2K and 4 K formats, shipped all the complimentary hats out to the REDCORE and decided on the winner of the RED T-shirt design competition .......... uh ohhh, do I hear the gauntlet falling??

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Exactly. We need to wait for RED to ship before we start thinking of ways to improve it.

Personally, I'm thrilled. Without RED, I would be staring at a Sony XDCAM system or a used Varicam as my purchase options. Instead, I'm being presented with the ability to shoot 2K/4K 4:4:4 -- 2K at up to double the FPS of Varicam. All on a full 35mm sensor (vs. 2/3" of those other cameras).

[Finner]

If RED ships before some important things are addressed it would be a shame. RED has found this forum useful because of the input people give (Just in the last few days Stuart was asking for input and preferences on audio gain pots). Red has mentioned many times that the input they have recieved from us has helped further the development of the camera the whole way. Even right now it is stated that nothing about the camera is set in stone yet. I think it is very important for people to express their ideas and concerns here and no one should try and supress these thoughts. If the idea sucks the RED team will scan over it and toss it out or not respond. If it is a great idea though there is a good chance it will benifit all of us.

All this said I don't find anything Najafi mentions to be anything that RED is not already trying to incorporate or can not because of the 17.5k price point. I am on the other hand thankful that Najafi feels comfortable to post his thoughts and ideas because it could easily be a big suprise who comes up with a brilliant idea.

[Mark Thorpe]

Good points Finner,
I, as everyone, want to see the all singing all dancing RED ONE start shipping on time and to a happy audience. I also believe that there is also a very true cut off time with regards to the development of RED in order for the team to start bolting everything down, getting the final tests done and realizing their delivery deadlines.

Personally I believe the time now should be spent in positive encouragement to all involved in the hope that the final product will live up to all our expectations. If the team do decide to take on something posted here at whatever time as a design feature then I applaud them for their balls in doing so.

Regards,
Mark.

[Finner]

I am sure there will be a cut off time as all areas of design and engineering become finished. I figure the RED team will do a very good job knowing when that will be. I don't think they need us to tell them when that should be.

[Roberto B]

If RED ships before some important things are addressed it would be a shame. RED has found this forum useful because of the input people give (Just in the last few days Stuart was asking for input and preferences on audio gain pots). Red has mentioned many times that the input they have recieved from us has helped further the development of the camera the whole way. Even right now it is stated that nothing about the camera is set in stone yet. I think it is very important for people to express their ideas and concerns here and no one should try and supress these thoughts. If the idea sucks the RED team will scan over it and toss it out or not respond. If it is a great idea though there is a good chance it will benifit all of us.

All this said I don't find anything Najafi mentions to be anything that RED is not already trying to incorporate or can not because of the 17.5k price point. I am on the other hand thankful that Najafi feels comfortable to post his thoughts and ideas because it could easily be a big suprise who comes up with a brilliant idea.and who will pay our bills while we'll wait for the red?.. you?..

edit
or while we wait for your red timing..

[Finner]

and who will pay our bills while we'll wait for the red?.. (or for your time to go w/ red) you?..

No I won't pay you! squat, jack, nada nothing.

Tell me how much will you get paid for a job that needs some features that were not incorporated in the RED?

Oh wait I think I can answer this one. Squat, Jack, Nada.

Don't be in a rush to get something that you may end up being unhappy with.

Also myself and it seems like many others here work regularly with the equipment that is on the market right now. I use ARRI, Panavision or even sometimes sony HD or Varicam so why not just do that like the rest of the pros do.

If you think just owning and having a RED is going to make you money as a profesional I think you will be very disapointed. If you are not working now I doubt highly just owning a RED will get you work.

[Roberto B]

No I won't pay you! squat, jack, nada nothing.

Tell me how much will you get paid for a job that needs some features that were not incorporated in the RED?

Oh wait I think I can answer this one. Squat, Jack, Nada.

Don't be in a rush to get something that you may end up being unhappy with.

that one has my vote..




Also myself and it seems like many others here work regularly with the equipment that is on the market right now. I use ARRI, Panavision or even sometimes sony HD or Varicam so why not just do that like the rest of the pros do.

If you think just owning and having a RED is going to make you money as a profesional I think you will be very disapointed. If you are not working now I doubt highly just owning a RED will get you work.

i'm an artist man.. (and a proud fanboy too..) no worries there.. eheheh.. i don't eat from your soup..

here is a good reading for you:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58


edit
enjoy it..

[Alex Boothby]

Let's not be too fragile here. The truth is that there are very useful ideas and not very useful ideas. Some may be considered and even implemented by RED at this late intermediate stage of development, whereas others have been discussed and discarded long ago. The trick is to move forward, and to not indulge arguments that have no pragmatic effect on RED's progress. That may involve some polite form of policing the discussion.

From Najafi's original list we know that mechanical shutter has been thoroughly considered and rejected in favour of a 720p EVF with magic focus assist, histograms, audio meters and menus galore (a fare decision IMHO). As this issue is critical to the position of the sensor I think it is a done deal. Moving on. The merits of bayar pattern; again this has been rigorously debated and Greame could offer pages of data to rebut this - but I'd rather he did not (for the 10th time) as he certainly has more pressing matters to address. Suffice is to say that bayer has served the professional still photography world very well, and the results can be seen and tested on images posted on red.com & CML.

Final point. More FPS - a good idea and one we're sure RED is doing everything in their power to implement. Compromises will occur, but this seems to be likely a feature that will improve with future releases / upgrades.

I think we owe it to RED to present our strongest and most realistic ideas without needlessly involving them in old debates. I think that participation on the level of 'the audio meters discussion' will help RED more than simple cheerleading, but that we should be careful not to waste their time. Moving forward always. I for one am kinda glad that Jim & co. are posting less these days as I'm sure that they are ankle deep in sensor guts wrestling dragons. As it should be.

[Roberto B]

here is an indy post.. for real and not not in disguise form..

[Roberto B]

some people remembers me those new converted politicians from the eastern european countries converted to the new rules of the market.. lol

[Graeme Nattress]

1- Mechanical Shutter
2- Bayar Pattern
3- Higher Frame Rates
thanks
hossein najafi

1) too expensive. You'll more than double the cost of the camera. But you do get the look around region, which is really nice.

2) There are no serious issues with a well reconstructed Bayer pattern image. They look great. Practically all DSLRs use this method, and their images look superb and easily win over old 35mm stills cameras. Also, there's no practical alternative for a 4k image on a S35 sized sensor. We can't use a prism and 3 chip system as then you'd not be able to use PL mount lenses as the back focus distance is all wrong. Also, I don't think it's possible to make a 3 chip system work with that size of chip. There are no full colour per-pixel chips at this size or frame rate, and indeed, that technology has it's own issues too. Bayer pattern looks fine, works fine, is practical, and has stood the test of image and time. It's also, when you understand it, seriously clever.

3) Understood - more fps is always better. (all things being equal).

Graeme

[Mardi_Gras]

1) too expensive. You'll more than double the cost of the camera. But you do get the look around region, which is really nice...

3) Understood - more fps is always better. (all things being equal).

Graeme

Hi Graeme,

In your answer to the first point above, what do you mean by getting the "look around region"? And on point three, do you mean this (more fps) is something that you guys are considering with the initial RedOne units?

[Graeme Nattress]

In an optical viewfinder, you can see what's coming into shot before it gets into the region that the film covers. Great for spotting booms and things before they get into shot. We have the same feature in 4k on down, whereby you get to see the region around the actual part of the sensor that's recording, so that you can do this also. It's a great feature.

We always consider things. We don't know the full capabilities of the hardware platform yet, so there may or may not be room for improvement. Time will tell.

Graeme

[Martin Ludwig]

Graeme, there are some good arguments - by the way it´s right to think on improvements when the camera is shipping - but red could think about the strategy..
maybe it could be helpful to give certain things as option.
an optical viewfinder - many dop want to have it
an mechanical shutter - the same
more framerates - helpful in 3% of shootings.

But if you would offer these things on a double price as an option, I would change my 5 reservations to 2 normal 17.500´s and 3 with all options fitted camera.

I know that this brings a lot of logistic problems, but i am sure the demand will be good enough

[Graeme Nattress]

I said double, but you could probably buy 3 RED cameras for the price of an optical viewfinder alone. I don't see that as, personally, a valid business proposition, given that we have duplicated the important thing from an OVF with the look around region, and a full 720p EVF of the quality we're offering, with the focus assist etc addresses the focus issues completely.

Graeme

[Stuart English]

The RED_ONE camera does not have an optical viewfinder or a mechanical shutter. No point debating that issue any more.

We have made this engineering choice for size, weight, cost and quite frankly performance reasons.

We do understand what an optical VF can provide to you, but the bottom line is - if you must have an optical VF then RED_ONE is not the camera for you.

However we also believe that this "truth" will be severely tested by our SurroundView electronic viewfinder solution.

[Graeme Nattress]

Great answer Stuart!!

Graeme

[Finner]

I think the only bonus from optical viewfinder is the look around region and the ability to eye focus easier. You have already taken care of the look around region and I hope your focus aid system will make the EVF as effective as a optical VF.

There will be traditionalists that will be slow to come around to new ways of thinking but I am very glad the RED team is using creative ideas to evolve the camera and keep the price down.

[Graeme Nattress]

The thing is though, (kevlar underwear on) that an OVF isn't that hot for focus either, as when the shutter is running, the flicker basically makes it unusable for focussing. Also, given the small relative size of the image, the human eye is just not good enough to accurately focus without some aid. You can still use a tape measure with an EVF, but with an EVF you also get electronic focus aids.

Graeme

[Finner]

I am very excited to learn more about the focus aids. No argument here about moving shutters being tough to judge focus on. To many times the answer to a Focus pullers "Did I get it?" is "Uhhhhhh yahhhhhh I think.". Although the 435s shutter was a lot better then the old ARRI III's and the newer Panavision and ARRICAM cameras are actually a lot easier to judge focus with then cameras in the past (Definitely easier then the vericam and sony HD cameras). I trust you guys more and more each day though. It seems like everything has been very well thought out. To tell you the truth audio gain pots has been the only camera thing that I wondered if was overlooked. Everything else to me seems like it has been gone through with a fine toothed comb.

[Bruce Allen]

I'm sure I'll be flamed for this but I should mention that for every person who wants an optical viewfinder, mechanical shutter "Red Two", there are probably several people willing to pay for a "Red Half" - eg
- half the number of pixels (eg approx 3k image - 3100x1800 or so)
- half the audio channels (2)
- half the outputs (just HDMI, Firewire, e-SATA)
- half the price ($8750)
- except keep the same 720P viewfinder

You could also use the Red Half to film the behind-the-scenes footage for your Red One shoot ;)

Seriously, I think we will find the Red to be more than enough camera for 99% of indie film work and most studio stuff too. I know it's like the deal of the century already but the only problem remains price. Guess I'll have to wait 3 years for used Red Ones to start coming on sale...

[Steven Parker]

i just wanna say thanks to the RED team for look-room in an electronic viewfinder!

that's something I was definitely NOT expecting

now...long eyepiece, anyone?;)

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Why the long eyepiece obsession? Can't we just mount the EVF to a Noga arm? Am I missing something? Just make sure we have a cable option for this.

[Stuart English]

Precisely.

Is a 2 - 3 ft long camera to EVF cable going to be long enough ?

[Michael Male]

Precisely.

Is a 2 - 3 ft long camera to EVF cable going to be long enough ?

A user positionable viewfinder would be a great feature. A 2-3 ft long EVF cable would certainly cover most on-camera/rail positions. Are longer cables possible for jib arm or remote camera use?

[Michael Male]

In an optical viewfinder, you can see what's coming into shot before it gets into the region that the film covers. Great for spotting booms and things before they get into shot. We have the same feature in 4k on down, whereby you get to see the region around the actual part of the sensor that's recording, so that you can do this also. It's a great feature.
Graeme

I've been shooting natural history subjects with an Aaton for twenty years. The extra room around the edges of the frame in the Aaton viewfinder is indeed extremely useful. It will be wonderful to have in the RED EVF.

Is it possible to take it a step further? I have no doubt that the RED Team has indeed taken the EVF much much further.

When using a long focal length lens the high magnification can make it difficult to find a fast moving subject quickly. Small birds hopping through the branches of a blowing tree for instance. I use a Canon 150-600mm varifocal lens much of the time. The focus and "zoom" control is one knob -turn to focus, push/pull to change focal length. Being able to locate subjects at 150 and crash into 600 for filming definitely helps.

When shooting super 16 format (2k with windowed sensor) on the Red Camera, but using a lens that covers 35mm, would it be possible to briefly see the image from the whole sensor in the viewfinder? This would allow a much wider "find" view. It would be very useful if after finding and centering the subject it was then possible to instantly switch back to viewing the windowed (recording) area with a small look around, for focusing and framing.

Ideally, for tripod use such a viewfinder feature would be accessible with a short wired remote that could be attached to the tripod handle, or held in the hand on the tripod handle, while the other hand stays on the lens for focusing. In many situations the time it takes to move the lens hand to the camera body and back can result in a missed shot -no matter how familiar the cinematographers reflexes are to the camera and lens controls.

I assume there will be a port on the camera for a wired remote record/stop switch. Could this same port also have a separate user programable circuit -to access a feature such as the one I spoke about above, or other RED ONE camera/viewfinder abilities. The Aaton wired remote I use is a simple light weight plastic cylinder. The wire comes out of one end and a three way switch that controls on/off and single frame (to access the internal light meter) is on the other. It's easy to hold in the palm of the hand and simultaneously operate the tripod or lens. It is a small thing that makes many shots possible.

The RED ONE camera looks to be a very big thing, that will open worlds of possibilities. Many thanks to the team.

[Christopher Gosch]

The look around option would be great. and using a cable that you can buy in several sizes for the viewfinder so that the screen is always fairly close to the eye would be the ideal situation. Have you thought about working with a professional Monitor vendor such as TRANSVIDEO to make a montior that will be daylight viewable and HD resolution (at least). I find most LCD's to work terrible outside and since I work as a steadicam operator a good daylight viewable monitor is a job necessity.

[tj williams]

Chris is so right here. Steadicam or crane ops who use monitors outside to aim with all the time know that monitors that aren't viewable in daylight don't work well.

Lets go to sticks here. bird in the tree man on the ground tilt. non day light viewable and narrow angle of view LDC screen with of course a hoodman so you can see at all.

1. Looking at the bird with your head against the hood the monitor is tilted up and hopefully you are either young or have very powerful reading glasses to see the screen in focus

2. Tilt down to the man... whoops up on tippy toes and still can't see the damn monitor.... now you feel it.

TJ Williams

[Jared VanLeuven]

i just wanna say thanks to the RED team for look-room in an electronic viewfinder!

that's something I was definitely NOT expecting

now...long eyepiece, anyone?;)

Word - I am so tired of my S##Y cam's viewfinder showing me less of what's being recorded. More is a god-send.

[Brook Willard]

In an optical viewfinder, you can see what's coming into shot before it gets into the region that the film covers.

I'm assuming that digital overscan has not left the camera's feature list? The "extra" .4K sensor area that will help out in this regard?

[Graeme Nattress]

Look-around is still on the feature list. It would be pretty hard to remove it as it's all tied in with the sensor and pixel dimensions. :-)

Graeme

[Brook Willard]

*whew* Your description of look-around on an OVF without mentioning that the same is possible on the EVF made me a little nervous.

[Sanjin Jukic]

My vision of the RED ONE viewfinder or EVF or SurroundView electronic viewfinder solution had always a look of high quality Head Mounting Display with a high end dynamic hi-fi earphones something like at the picture below

http://www.dvinfo.net/red/images/thumps.jpg
"Imagine this MP3 Player equipped with BlueTooth to monitor the audio output of your RED camera. And what if you had a virtual RED lens viewfinder displyed in the shades?"
Quote and picture taken from
http://www.dvinfo.net/red/reddawn1.php

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Stuart- My vote would be for at least two cable options:

1) 5' spiral type for steadicamers, Noga arm mounts and in my case an HMD (head mounted) EVF.

2) 25' for jib, remote head work - if they are male on both ends then we would need the equivilent of a BNC barrel (F to F) for longer cranes

Of course if you are using an industry standard connector/cable solution then we can deal with this ourselves but I am assuming that due to bandwidth requirements and unique interface protocols this will have to be a RedAccessory item.

Will the LCD and the EVF use the same interface?

[Sanjin Jukic]

Pssssssssst!
I have feeling from my Vienna, Austria long distance to California that Jim has HMD as the RED "EVF" under his sleeves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just keep cool and wait. Til than have some creative fun at the forum like this.

[tj williams]

Hwooooya monitor cables in many lengths..... HDMI done in Lemos!!!!!

How far can the monitor be away from the camera????

Will it be daylite viewable enough to use with steadicam????

Psssst: Wanna buy some steadicam mounting plates for it????

[Stuart English]

Q: "Will the LCD and the EVF use the same interface?"

Would you prefer it if was or if it wasn't ?

[Mark B.]

Q: "Will the LCD and the EVF use the same interface?"

Would you prefer it if was or if it wasn't ?

Have it user selectable to show the same data or not. If the EVF and LCD can be plugged in at the same time, then maybe you'll want the LCD to show a picture without any additional data, while the EVF would show all the extra info like histograms and what-not. Or, maybe you want to see only the picture in the EVF and then the histogram in the LCD. Choices are always better than no choices.

[Emmanuel Cambier]

So right !

Emmanuel

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Yep, what Lowkus said. EVF and LCD should be independent and selectable as to what is displayed. That would be very, very useful. Camera OP / DP can use the viewfinder and switch additional info on if/when needed... Focus puller and/or other techs can watch focus assist or other info on the LCD or other external monitor. That would really be cool.

[Stuart English]

Thanks for the responses, but let me re-post this as the meaning of my question got lost.

Balir asked about the cables / interface then this question came up -

Q: "Will the LCD and the EVF use the same interface?"


So my question is : Would you prefer it if was or if it wasn't ?

[ericyoung]

Thanks for the responses, but let me re-post this as the meaning of my question got lost.

Balir asked about the cables / interface then this question came up -

Q: "Will the LCD and the EVF use the same interface?"


So my question is : Would you prefer it if was or if it wasn't ?

Do you mean the same type of physical connector on the Red camera body? If so, the answer would be it depends!!

1) If the LCD and EVF have the same power and video pin-outs, then having the same sockets would allow us to use the same type of cables for both. If caught short without a spare cable in the field and one of the cables fails, we can use the good cable to feed the most useful of the EVF or LCD in that shooting situation. Or conversely we only need to carry one spare cable for both.

2) However if the LCD and EVF have different power/video pin-outs, it'd be better to have different physical connectors to avoid accidentally using the wrong cable and cooking the electronics!

[Andrew M.]

Q: "Will the LCD and the EVF use the same interface?"

Same interface but two different ports (outputs)
mini HDMI will be perfect.
HDMI doesn't have power in it, well, let's add power to it then?
also separate on screen options for both LCD and EVF

Andrew

[Trevor Meier]

I would prefer if the LCD & EVF could both operate simultaneously. Using the same pinout would be convenient for cables & accessories.