Need some prosumer camera advice

[Finner]

So I agreed to do a set of 8 training videos for this charity that my wife does volunteer work for. The training video is taken from seminars that 2 women travel around and teach other women at pregnancy care centres how to help with post adoption or abortion issues that their clients may be dealing with (This is not a pro life/ pro choice thing so please help me out here and don't go down that road). I am use to dealing with much higher budgets then this so I do not have any real experience on the prosumer cameras I can rent in this budget.

The video will be a 3 camera shoot that will be pretty much an adapted version of the live seminars. Two women hosts sitting comfortably in chairs with a large window behind them (ND covered) and light well while giving 8- 45 to 55 minute seminars. There will be some graphics and other things to help break it up a bit.

What I need to know from all of you with a fair amount of prosumer camera experience which camera you would recomend. I would like to stick with tape and not go the HVX route because the plan is to shoot all 8 seminars over a 2 day shoot and importing 3 FS drives into computers after every seminar would be time extensive durring the shoot day and I would rather be able to import later with tapes. So my thought is DVX100's or a prosumer Hi-def video tape camera of some kind (sony?). I have done a little work in the past with the DVX and found them quite a decent bang for the buck but as many things are changing to Hi-def I wonder if the progect would be better shot in HDV. I assume that HDV is recorded direct to tape and not a hard drive. I have no experience what so ever with the prosumer HD-tape cameras.

I have easy and cheap access to 3 DVX cameras but really am questioning if this should not be shot with a hi-def prosumer camera as they plan to use this video for 5-7 years and it seems like HD televisions are finally starting to break into the standard consumer market at a larger level. This is a corporate video that can have a real news documentary type look so a cine type look is not needed thus maybe sony cameras. They have enough of a budget that I could rent the sony or other prosumer cameras. Like I mentioned I know nothing of the current prosumer HD type cameras so information and recomendations would help, also you will be doing a little to help a great charity.

Thanks

[Bruce Allen]

Finner

HDV will be fine! Really, all of the HD cameras (even the old FX1) give far superior picture to DV cameras in my opinion, as long as they have enough light.

I guess it would depend on what rental rates you can find but I would say you should look at Z1, V1 of course, as well as the Canon A1 and XL H1, and see which one fits you best. You'd probably also like the JVC ones because they are the most "pro friendly" in terms of ergonomics, though? I think the newer ones can do full 60fps for that broadcast look...

To be honest, though, I think that image-wise they are all pretty similar and that you should just go with the cameras offered by the people who give you the best rental deal, tripods, lighting package, etc.

For example, here are frames from...
the HD100:
http://www.adamwilt.com/HD/4cams-part2-framegrabs/TX-9-HD100.jpg
and the HVX200
http://www.adamwilt.com/HD/4cams-part2-framegrabs/TX-9-HVX200.jpg
and the XL H1 (A1 is very similar)
http://www.adamwilt.com/HD/4cams-part2-pix/TX-9-XLH1.jpg
and the Z1 (FX1 is very similar, just not as easy focus and worse audio inputs)
http://www.adamwilt.com/HD/4cams-part2-pix/TX-9-Z1.jpg

Pretty similar, eh?

For a full analysis, check out the Chris Hurd / Adam Wilt / Mike Curtis Texas Shootout, written about here:
http://www.adamwilt.com/HD/4cams-part1.html
http://www.adamwilt.com/HD/4cams-part2.html
and here on DV magazine:
http://dv.com/features/features_item.jhtml?category=Archive&articleId=177103305
http://www.dv.com/features/features_item.php?articleId=192501274

Of course, you could just be a cheapskate like me and use 3 HV20s ;) With decent light, even their the picture is far superior to a DVX100. But the ergonomics will probably drive you nuts.

Finally, you will be amazed at how much their LCD screens suck. But I am working on that problem, right?

Oh, I should also have mentioned that they all are pretty irritating to use with settings buried in menus, etc. So, pick cameras that your camera operators will be familiar with, or ones whose rental facility will help you set up. It's really easy to record in the wrong mode, etc.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Júlio Taubkin]

Hey Finner, Canon finally added some decent additions to the HDV line, I think the XL-A1 and the XL-H1 are being well regarded in that world. Since you don't have a lot of motion going on, I'd vouch for HDV too. Simple and elegant solution to put your video in HD without braking the bank.

I shot three documentaries with rental JVCs HD-100, and their current HD-200's seem even better. I like them better because they can give you real 24p, and getting a true progressive image seem to go along with graphics a little better, in my taste. I think the JVCs can do great and are probably cheaper to find (I'd be happy with HD-100s).

If you were a true consumer camera geek, I'd encourage you to try 3 Canon HV-20 palmcorders, thetered to different macs using HDMI cards (blackmagic intensity), that would give you awesome video quality, but would certainly require some Geeking...

Anyway, for a charity project, 3 HD-100's will make them all very happy, and would certainly convey to a lot of mothers to be that they were properly taken care of...

EDIT - Yeah, what Bruce said

[Finner]

thanks Guys.

Do the Z1, V1, cannons and Jvc's just take mini dv tapes? how long is the record time on the tapes they take?

[Júlio Taubkin]

All of them, actually. HDV always record to miniDV tapes, one hour a tape.

[Finner]

good advice, thanks

Its funny you guys bring up the HV-20 as I went to best buy and took a look at them earlier today. The images I have seen off this camera are great. The problem I see though is that option would be time consuming set up (to lock off all the cameras FPS and shutters) and I see audio also being a bit of a problem as the HV-20's only have a mic mini jack input and the talent would have on wireless mic's. I am open to the HV-20's if you guys don't think the hurdles would be that big?


anything else anyone can add would be very helpful.

[GlennChan]

The training video is taken from seminars that 2 women travel around and teach other women at pregnancy care centres how to help with post adoption or abortion issues that their clients may be dealing with (This is not a pro life/ pro choice thing so please help me out here and don't go down that road).
I think you need to keep your audience in mind here. Chances are, your project will be distributed on DVD for a long, long time. The intended audience is likely interested in the content and doesn't give a ____ about seeing the two women in HD. Plus, there is little economic sense doing a run of DVDs for bluray/HD-DVD on top of a standard DVD run.

IMO, the DVX should work fine for your needs.

1- It can get good audio
2- It will deliver a pretty decent SD image. You can shoot progressive (30p or 24p) if you are thinking about web delivery.
3- Presumably it's cheap, so you can spend your money on other things. Or not spend it.

[Finner]

Thanks Glenn.

I had thought about the exact things you mention. In the end the HDV camera rentals will cost about an extra $500 or so. I thought it may be money well spent to have the higher visual quality thus the questions I have thrown out there.

[Bruce Allen]

Taubkin, I think you are dead right - Finner would probably have the most fun with either the HD-200 or the XL-H1 or A1.

My girlfriend shot with the A1 a few days ago for the first time (she was directing a multicam shoot for the making of a commercial for a Japanese deodorizer product, haha!) and really enjoyed it. She owns an old VX2000 and said the difference was night and day. She didn't have much time to learn the camera and is not as much of a tech geek as me, but just really enjoyed using it as a filmmaker. Said it wasn't the most ergonomic camera in the world though - it weighs a more than the VX2000 but doesn't offer much of an improvement in terms of a shoulder brace or anything. But super crisp and seemingly better latitude and overall color tone too. And obviously worlds sharper.

The HD-200 is a really cool camera that actually looks comfortable. The HD-100 is great too (no fly by wire lenses, yaay) but you'd need to do it all in 24p or 30p. How keen are you on that news look?

Finner, I agree that HV20 is a little irritating to lock. Yes, it's only a few button presses, (SET button, then DOWN button, then UP) but still a tad stressful.

Regarding the HV-20 -> HDMI uncompressed thing, I have actually directed a shoot for a guy who had that setup. Unless you are doing greenscreen (which we were), I wouldn't recommend it. Especially with 3 cameras - you will need 3 computers! Way too much hassle and stress. I was working with smart people but at some point I did something stupid like unplugging the camera in order to change a setup. When the camera switched off, we lost connection, then the couldn't reconnect when we switched the camera back on... the connection came back after 30 seconds of frantic fiddling but it was stressful. This is why it's good to keep the director as far from the camera as possible, I guess ;)

That was with an earlier version of the drivers though (when Blackmagic were officially saying that the HV-20 didn't work with the Intensity at all). Now with the 1.5 drivers, we are supposedly good to go.

Anyway, I also own my own HV-20 and have promised sample footage etc before (Dave Mullen was interested in its performance too...). I will get on it. I lit a sample scene with just a Diva-400 and some house lights, and its was just enough light. I ran around with my Sekonic 608, doing some spot and incident readings, so will try to bundle annotations of those readings with the whole thing.

RE: mics, although you can manually set mic input levels on the HV20, there might be other hurdles. Probably best to use a Beachtek adapter or something? Tricks like setting different channels to record at different levels as a guard against clipping can't be done easily on the HV20. Of course, you're probably going into a horrible DAC so the sound quality won't be worth the pain. I got mine for shooting music videos, so wasn't worried about that. For drama I'll use a Sound Devices hard drive recorder...

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Bruce Allen]

Also, Finner, you need to use one of those HD cameras a bit so when someone is saying "why should we pay so much more for you to come and shoot with your Red", you can say "I've shot with the HD200 and I know Red is 5 times better" ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

[Finner]

Also, Finner, you need to use one of those HD cameras a bit so when someone is saying "why should we pay so much more for you to come and shoot with your Red", you can say "I've shot with the HD200 and I know Red is 5 times better" ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

This is one of the biggest reasons. This job is a bit of a game.

As far as the HV-20 option I think it just may cause too much time messing with them to make sure they are all set the same. In 1 camera job a hv-20 may be okay but a 3 camera job may be a bit of a nightmere to match up so I am pretty sure I do not want to go that route.

[Poi Boy]

I second that Finner. I bought an HV20 as a fun cam and that it is. I would avoid using it for a job unless it was the only cam available (ergonomics).
Aloha
-A

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Not sure what the budget constraints are, but I would seriously consider the Canon XLH1. The HVX is great, but for long format seminar type work and if you're thinking of recording to FireStore drives, then the HVX isn't a great choice. I wouldn't use the FireStore unless I was extremely desperate. The HVX is still a great choice if you can rotate through P2 cards or if you can shoot direct to a notebook with external HDD, that way your footage is already logged onto a decent drive. And the HVX can only shoot HD and DVCPRO modes to P2.

The HV20 is cool, but the ergonomics of a palmcorder just don't fit with any form of pro work (IMNSHO). But you could still get away with it if you're mostly on sticks. Something like a Fig Rig can help with handheld use, but I'd still choose something else if possible.

Definitely get a camera with decent audio connections unless you plan to record audio to a separate unit. But most "prosumer" HDV camcorders should fit your needs here. I also would advise against standard DV... No reason to shoot DV these days. A DVX100 would do you well for this job and shooting 480p can provide for a better image in some ways, but if you don't already have the cameras, no reason to limit yourself that way.

I don't have much experience with a lot of the HDV camcorders out there. But I've had good luck editing footage from the Sony FX1/Z1 and I've owned the Sony HVR-A1u and HVR-HC3 HDV palmcorders. My prosumer rigs have been the DVX100 and now the HVX200.

[Finner]

Thanks Jeff

i responded to your PM: (there are 2 different lower budget projects I am working on right now. 1 is a 1camera HVX deal and the other is the one I mention here that will be a 3 camera HDV shoot.)

[GlennChan]

I like how this thread is a toys for boys kind of thread. But c'mon people, if you were the target audience and wanted information on an abortion or adoption, I don't visual quality/appeal is high on your list of priorities.

If you were facing an abortion, would you be interested in going for the HD-DVD version over the standard def DVD? (Think about it... :tongue: )

2- But finner, I like how you think. The mindset is very much like you were shooting a narrative film... you gotta ND gel the windows.

[ZzzZZz...]

I think it depends on how much pride you are going to take in the quality...
If you want it to be visually impressive (for the money) I think that the hd-200 is the best option. It makes better pictures than the other cameras and it can do 60fps to tape (don´t laugh women in trouble also enjoys some nice slow "emotional landscapes").
If on the other hand you just want to get it done, fast and smooth the dvx-100b is the better option, because you can time sync all three cameras and use a scenefile to match them up.

[Alexander Nikishin]

Yea man, go for the Canon XLH1.

[Clayton Harper]

Daren,

Canon XLH1 is the best for delivery that "live tv" look. The thing is just super snappy. Plus, it operates like a real camera, with MANUAL CONTROLS.

DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT, try to use an HV20. It is a baby toy for babies who do things like tape nikon lenses over the front of a video camera and make home made dollies.

You are a pro, and if you try to do a non-pro thing on a shoot you will remember why pros do things a certain way and you will use swear words making your assistants nervous.

[Sean]

If you were a true consumer camera geek, I'd encourage you to try 3 Canon HV-20 palmcorders, tethered to different macs using HDMI cards (blackmagic intensity), that would give you awesome video quality, but would certainly require some Geeking...


Great info here (as I contemplate cheap workarounds until Red arrives). But as far as I know, no one has yet successfully tethered the HV20 to a laptop. Tell me I'm wrong, cuz I'd love to do it. My impression has been there there just isn't a laptop fast enough yet to do this set-up. You'd need on-the-fly compression to something like DVCProHD (otherwise you'd be dealing with giant uncompressed HD and that would take a fairly hefty RAID set-up, not a laptop). If you know something I don't, tell me. :-)

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I just wanted to add, that I do have a fair bit of experience with the XLH1 and that's a reason I recommended it. Also because of the same reasons mentioned by others. I personally haven't used the JVC-HD200, but if it's anything like the 100/150 model (and cosmetically it's basically the same), I'd still choose the XLH1. ...But the 720p60 to tape may be useful if you want that slow, emotional effect -- However, it's easily achieved with the XLH1 too with good retiming and its superior resolution. :)

[Finner]

Thanks for the good advice guys. I am definately going to check out the cannon-sony and Jvc options mentioned.




Glenn your points although valid to some degree are just not the way I tend to work. I always look at a budget and then strive to shoot the best quality possible for that money. Heck if I was to break things down to "I can get away with shooting this in mini dv because it is not that valid to me and the audience will hardly notice." there wold be a bunch of things that I have shot before on film that I would have done in mini dv if I had that attitude. I always want the client to be blown away by how good something looks to them and feel that their choice to hire me was the right one.

I understand with something like this content is king but being a director/dp I just always strive to not forget to shoot the best images possible.



I like how this thread is a toys for boys kind of thread. But c'mon people, if you were the target audience and wanted information on an abortion or adoption, I don't visual quality/appeal is high on your list of priorities.

If you were facing an abortion, would you be interested in going for the HD-DVD version over the standard def DVD? (Think about it... :tongue: )

2- But finner, I like how you think. The mindset is very much like you were shooting a narrative film... you gotta ND gel the windows.

[P Andersson]

I always want the client to be blown away by how good something looks to them and feel that their choice to hire me was the right one.

that's the spirit

[planet e]

for a studio shoot such as finner is describing, what can an XL H1 offer that an XH A1 cannot?

- interchangeable lens mount, don't need that unless you also plan to purchase the 6x wide angle lens for this shoot.

- HD-SDI uncompressed out, don't need that unless you plan to record tethered to a fully tricked out computer or Wafian unit

- shoulder mount capability, which is not great with the H1 anyway, and you will probably be tripod-mounted in the described set-up anyway.

if you rent these cams, there may not be much difference between the rental prices. but if you have it in your budget to buy, then you're talking about a $5-6K difference per camera.

even the HV20 can take a wireless mic set-up with a 1/8'' jack. you can use a shotgun or hypercardioid with a buttplug and get very professional sound, especially with stationary targets such as a talk show set-up.

looking like a pro can be expensive. shooting like one doesn't have to be. it really comes down to what feels good ergonomically, because almost all of these cameras, even the little HV20, can approximate the same image and sound quality.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

My brother owns the HV20 and I've been playing with it a lot lately... I would never use it and it's 1/8" line in jack for pro audio acquisition. I've played with it with a few different mics and results weren't bad, but I would never choose to use it for anything other than home movies. As for the image, the sensor is incredible for its small size and I'm blown away by the quality out of this little palmcorder. But I would never choose it over an H1... I'm not sure about the A1 as I have not personally used one.

The option to throw that 6X lens on the H1 is reason enough if you'll be shooting a lot of close-quarters and interiors. Better audio functions too.

Then again, I wouldn't turn my nose up at the A1 or G1. I haven't used them, but given the specs for the price, I would definitely consider them.

[Robert Sanders]

Personally, I'm a Canon fan. And in the prosumer HD world I would not hesitate using an A1 (or G1 if you need SDI) or the H1 coupled with the 6x lens.

[Júlio Taubkin]

I own a DVX and I was a huge fan for a long time, in fact, I still love mine. But I have to face it, resolution triumphs over almost anything. An HDV with true progressive capabilities make up for a better image after a good tape to tape and downrezzing HDV to DV makes images look much more interesting in the way things do appear clearer(and maybe it's me, but it seem to give the illusion of shallower DOF, since the circle of confusion changes).

I don't know how many days you plan to shoot but I cannot understand how an HD100 rental could go for much more than 100 bucks. I like the DVX for no budget projects, but I reccomend HD for every project that can pay this little extra cost.

For illustration's sake, I can give you the link to my Cinematography reel from 2006 (I shoot mostly docs theese days). See if you can find the HD-100 shots, and see if the clearer resolution has made for a better picture or not. Remember, it's all further downrezzed for internet streaming...

Cheers!

Júlio

http://www.stickypod.com/videos/data/524/Demo_Foto.mov

[Ace]

I think for women facing such a complex and trialling problem, the key would be to produce a pleasing and comforting image to the intended viewer. A harsh looking DV setup with peoples eyes being blacked out due to poor compression wont add good juju to the whole message. I'd go with something that will allow you to properly DP this thing for the reasons of the intended audience. in the end, it has to look comforting and authoratative. Sony's HDV cams are good for capturing the detail in faces in the audience.. (I guess Youd want to show that these women "arent alone" so audience shots would be important.. Oprah style) as Taubkin said, it would be clearer when downrezzed to SD.

[GlennChan]

For your budget and resources, probably the top things you can do are:

A- Shoot or get some other visuals to illustrate whatever the presenters are talking about. (Though for several hours of finished material, this could be harsh!; maybe grab stock photography off sxc.hu ) Because watching two people in a room is boring, and video is a very visual medium.
B- Get good audio. Wireless lav + boom mic. Could likely get away without needing a mixer.
C- Art direction, lighting.
D- Have some interesting broadcast design elements for titles and things like that. Or if they mention a particular book URL resource whatever, you would insert text there.

Shooting on a camera better than the DVX would rate very low. With the money you save, spend it on editing or art direction or lighting.

[Finner]

Glenn I did a documentary for them last year so I have a lot of footage to intercut with and I have plans to use animation in parts of the graphics to make things more interesting. I have to disagree with you though on not getting much of a benefit with hdv as the lighting set up will be simple and I feel the HDV will help keep the video looking more current for longer.

[Poi Boy]

Shooting hdv won't really effect your budget much an will improve your product significantly.
Aloha
-A

[Roberto B]

for a studio shoot such as finner is describing, what can an XL H1 offer that an XH A1 cannot?

- interchangeable lens mount, don't need that unless you also plan to purchase the 6x wide angle lens for this shoot.

- HD-SDI uncompressed out, don't need that unless you plan to record tethered to a fully tricked out computer or Wafian unit

- shoulder mount capability, which is not great with the H1 anyway, and you will probably be tripod-mounted in the described set-up anyway.

if you rent these cams, there may not be much difference between the rental prices. but if you have it in your budget to buy, then you're talking about a $5-6K difference per camera.

even the HV20 can take a wireless mic set-up with a 1/8'' jack. you can use a shotgun or hypercardioid with a buttplug and get very professional sound, especially with stationary targets such as a talk show set-up.

looking like a pro can be expensive. shooting like one doesn't have to be. it really comes down to what feels good ergonomically, because almost all of these cameras, even the little HV20, can approximate the same image and sound quality.

at last, an intelligent overview.. over other clever ones.. :)