RED image and sound

[conganh]

I am wondering if RED camera interleaves images and sounds or stores them seperately in the Red magazine or somewhere ( external recording equipment ) during the shooting?:help:

[Evin Grant]

It does record sound, 4 tracks in fact. Along with the image data.
I believe 4 channel uncompressed, 16 / 24 bit, 48KHz.

[el_cheapo]

will there be any options for high resolution sound? like 24bit/96khz incase one needs more headroom to do some level boosting and/or intensive audio processing? It would be cool if there is... if not maybe it would be a good suggestion for future updates

[zak forrest]

will there be any options for high resolution sound? like 24bit/96khz incase one needs more headroom to do some level boosting and/or intensive audio processing? It would be cool if there is... if not maybe it would be a good suggestion for future updates


external

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

With 24 bit 48 KHz you can savely boost the level of all but the most wrongly recorded audio. Sample frequency has no effect on that.

A 96 KHz version could not be an update, since it is a different convertor (hardware).

Of course 96 KHz would be better (as would 32bit floating point), but I´m fine with 24/48.

If there *is* time to work on the audio specs: A input matrix would be cool. Recording one input channel on two different tracks with different settings for gain and compression would have you covered for everything audio.

No need for clunky split boxes.
(Even my little Sony HVR A1E has this.)

Jochen

[Rob Lohman]

Audio & video is interleaved

[Chris Gearhart]

If there *is* time to work on the audio specs: A input matrix would be cool. Recording one input channel on two different tracks with different settings for gain and compression would have you covered for everything audio.

No need for clunky split boxes.
(Even my little Sony HVR A1E has this.)

Jochen

Yes, this would be excellent.

[Rocco Schult]

I know this comes late and the design is already done (I assume) but a digital in would have been my favourite. Its recorded digitally anyway and routing in a digital signal instead (switchable) would have been nice..
Everybody could have used his favourite A/D converter on top alternatively. And there are digital mixers and all the stuff...

[miles]

If there *is* time to work on the audio specs: A input matrix would be cool. Recording one input channel on two different tracks with different settings for gain and compression would have you covered for everything audio.


WOW, this would save my nerves during the last documentary project, recording a a playing steinway grand and the pianist talking inbetween, recorded with a single gunshot mic. Just for that feature I would buy this camera ... :)

Lp, m.

[Joel Kaye]

WOW, this would save my nerves during the last documentary project, recording a a playing steinway grand and the pianist talking inbetween, recorded with a single gunshot mic. Just for that feature I would buy this camera ... :)

Lp, m.

most good cameras already do this (seperate gains from 1 input to multiple tracks)... from the DVX-100 on up. I'd like to to see 1 input to 4 tracks in RED. The new sound track pro has a very easy way to switch between tracks... it's just like editing multicam. Very handy.

[Chris Gearhart]

most good cameras already do this (seperate gains from 1 input to multiple tracks)... from the DVX-100 on up. I'd like to to see 1 input to 4 tracks in RED. The new sound track pro has a very easy way to switch between tracks... it's just like editing multicam. Very handy.

That would be sweet. Two have saved my hind-quarters more than once. With four, I could take over the world.

[GlennChan]

1- Does the camera have limiters? (Esp. nice sounding ones with soft knee.) That would be useful for run and gun type stuff.

1b- On the other hand, you might be able to do fine by recording your audio with very conservative levels... if the preamps are good, you have a big dynamic range to work with. And then in post, drop a limiter/compressor on the whole track. However, not all NLEs have decent limiter/compressors (and in FCP I don't think you can add effects to the track).

2- In the majority of practical situations, there isn't much point in recording 24bit/96khz into the camera.

Few audio problems are solved by going to 96khz. Most of the time the audio is bad because the microphone is too far away / there is too much background noise. Any additional money/resources should go towards solving that... i.e. better wireless units, recording more tracks (use a separate audio recorder), etc.


That would be sweet. Two have saved my hind-quarters more than once.
Use a splitter cable?

[Chris Gearhart]

Use a splitter cable?

That'd work. IMO, It's still nicer to have that done in camera though--cleaner, simpler.

For features and such, I use a sound department (or guy), but for run and gun, 'tis nice.

[GlennChan]

Is a splitter cable clean and simple?

Doing it in camera probably adds complexity... like more switches and settings and crap on the camera.

[Joel Kaye]

Is a splitter cable clean and simple?

Doing it in camera probably adds complexity... like more switches and settings and crap on the camera.

I think in camera makes more sense. It's just a switch to map an input to tracks. Gain will have to be adjusted with or without a splitter cable.

But a splitter cable adds more points of potential noise or failure into the pipeline.

[martinnoweck]

1b- On the other hand, you might be able to do fine by recording your audio with very conservative levels... if the preamps are good, you have a big dynamic range to work with. And then in post, drop a limiter/compressor on the whole track. However, not all NLEs have decent limiter/compressors (and in FCP I don't think you can add effects to the track).



Hi Glenn,

I don't know how you define "adding effects to the track", but what you can do in FCP is selecting an audio effect in the bin, drag and drop it on the audio track of your choice in the timeline.

regards,
martin

[martinnoweck]

For my purpose even more important than an input matrix is the output matrix of the headphone amp - any information about how this feature will work with the red one?

Regards,
Martin

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Yep, a simple 4 channel downmix would not work in this scenario.

Jochen

[ZzzZZz...]

A coaxial input for digital audio would be VERY nice. It is the only craving I have left...

[GlennChan]

I don't know how you define "adding effects to the track", but what you can do in FCP is selecting an audio effect in the bin, drag and drop it on the audio track of your choice in the timeline.
By adding effects to the track, I mean the entire track and not individual clips.

[Nick Shaw]

By adding effects to the track, I mean the entire track and not individual clips.

Although you can't do that, you can of course nest the whole sequence. Sometimes if I'm feeling lazy (don't tell my clients) or for making viewing copies of an un-finished programme, I drop the whole sequence into another timeline and add a compressor and a broadcast safe filter. Creating a sequence with more than two audio outputs then nesting it is also a simple, if slightly cumbersome, way of making audio sub-mixes within FCP.

[martinnoweck]

lifelong learning ... thanks nick,

martn

[GlennChan]

Neat trick, didn't think of that.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Yeah total respect to the RED team, (usual caveats to this post apply). But reduser has been a little information-light about sound. If we have four inputs! Then presumably the sound solution is a professional one - ie professional preamps, professional monitoring options, blah blah. I mentioned this at the end of another thread and was ignored (not for the first time, :waaa: ) Hee hee:biggrin: But I'd love to hear some info from the team about exactly how the sound will be managed. For example: where are the four faders on the camera body to adjust the sound level? It's a pretty basic question:huh:
Anyway we all know that they are heroically busy at the moment trying to save our filmmaking asses from HDV oblivion, but perhaps when the dust has settled we'll get some clear guidance from the RED team about sound:help:

[Joel Kaye]

For example: where are the four faders on the camera body to adjust the sound level?

The last I read was that they are menu items. Perhaps you'll be able to program buttons to increase/decrease levels. Yeah - I think it a "design whoops" but maybe I'll be proven wrong when I actually use it.

Also - you should have full control of audio levels via a laptop. If you could control that via wireless then you'd have a pretty slick mixer solution in camera.

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

Also - you should have full control of audio levels via a laptop. If you could control that via wireless then you'd have a pretty slick mixer solution in camera.

But, there´s a missunderstanding: You dont "mix" during acquisition unless you are recording an orchestra to stereo. You set your gains and thats all you do in this regard. The rest is getting the right mike in the right place and direction.

Jochen

[Nick Shaw]

I agree that menu driven audio gain control is less flexible than 'real' pots, but I really don't see it as being much of an issue for the kind of shoots RED is likely to be used on. I know the EFP/ENG folks may bite my head off for saying this, but every professional shoot I've ever been on where sync sound was needed had a dedicated sound recordist with a mixer. In this situation, the camera's audio gain only needs to be set up once to tone from the mixer, and so doing this with a menu would not be hard.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

As an EFP/ENG person I am going to bite your head off for saying that..:bleh:

[Joel Kaye]

But, there´s a missunderstanding: You dont "mix" during acquisition unless you are recording an orchestra to stereo. You set your gains and thats all you do in this regard. The rest is getting the right mike in the right place and direction.


Well - mixing is not what I meant - I mean some recordists will ride the levels in highly variable sound situations... like they know the actress is going to whisper/whimper and then scream. (horror movie anyone?).

Also - if you're moving setups quickly you could be adjusting those sound levels quite a bit over the course of a day (week etc.) - so anything that makes the workflow faster adds up.

Scott Billups' (digital pioneer) book "Digital Filmmaking" makes a very good argument for why recording sound back to the camera is preferable if at all possible. With RED's uncompressed audio recording ability I know I'll be taking Scott's advice every chance I can. If I've got 4 microphones out there it sure would be nice to see levels and knobs in the same place and time.

If I've got more than 4 mics... well, I'm gonna get a second RED of course!! Actually a friend of mine has a semi-portable 16 track hard drive recorder we use to record live bands.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Yeah man this is a real mistake on RED's part. It's totally understandable: they are making a revolutionary CAMERA not an audio recording device. But There is little point in having 4 mic level inputs recording uncompressed 24bit, if you can't ride the faders just a little bit! An example: if I'm filming and recording audio to the camera, and I'm following my subject around their world and we travel from one acoustic environment to another I need to be able to reach round with my hand while I'm filming (eye to the evf) and change the audio levels. It's not Rocket Science.. Otherwise, cool, REDcam is like a film camera, maybe recording guide sound to help the editor sync the sound being independently recorded.
Respect. But lets not pretend that as things stand REDcam seems to have a much less useful audio setup than your average HDV camcorder..
I say "seems" because I respect the RED team and am ready to be astonished by how user-friendly changing the audio levels for four mikes in the camera menu system, (whilst filming) can be :weight_lift:

[Stuart English]

Just catching up on the posts.

This audio levels question has been answered before .. of course you can do that.

There are menus to control audio level of course, but those map to a physical input device - primarily the joysticick, or you can assign individuals channels to other physical controls on the camera body, or to a SuperGrip. Via USB or wireless there is the possibility of other physical expressions for multi-channel audio level control.

The other comment I would offer is a 24 bit 48KHz audio recording has WAY more dynamic range than your normal 16 bit 48KHz recording, just as 12 bit RAW has WAY more dynamic range than 8 bits 4:2:2 video recording.

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

Brilliant Stuart,

It does still seem a bit funny..
But - respect - I'll wait until I've got the thing in my hands (hopefully soon eh :gun: )

Presumably we'll get audio level info in the evf..

[Stuart English]

Presumably we'll get audio level info in the evf..

Yup ..