Sound newbie needs info for feature film

[Brandon Fraley]

I'm considering working towards production of a feature length film shot on RED. The budget is miniscule and I'll be filling as many crew roles as possible myself, including director, DP, and editor. I'm hoping to record audio on the camera and avoid a separate sound recorder.

I've recorded sound on the RED before, with modest success, although I've never edited any RED footage that had sound tied to it.

So please, I'm asking for any and all advice on how to best record sound the the camera. What are all your tips and secrets to getting the best quality and easiest workflow.

Thanks :)

[Ariel Weiss]

hi
first, use mixer or preamplifier, preferiably sound devices mixpre or better.

do not use phantom, only line. make sure your picks do not clip in the mixer
and then check in the camera.
if possible, try using more than one audio source: two booms, or boom and one or two neckmiks, depends on the scene. i have the new board and its great. if you have the old one dont even concider phantom.
good luck

[Brent J. Craig]

Find a professional sound recordist and do what they say. There are folks out there who will work for little money - especially less established people or those who have recently upgraded from lesser positions.

Sound is hard to fix in post without a budget, and bad sound will really limit what you can do with your film. Get it right on set.

[Noah Kadner]

yeap- I realize the budget is minimal but try your hardest to get someone who knows what they're doing on sound to help you. 4K image does you little good if it's accompanied by tin can sound.

Noah

[FredrikL]

Hi,

I've previously recorded directly onto cameras like the Panasonic AG-DVX100 from a boom with a Sennheiser, or from Lav's - and in both cases with perfectly descent results.

Is this simply not possible on the REDONE?

It seems like it from everyone saying how one needs an external mixer.

- Or to phrase the question differently: Does a camera like the Panasonic AG-DVX100 really have a better audioboard than the REDONE?

F.

[Brandon Fraley]

Hi,

I've previously recorded directly onto cameras like the Panasonic AG-DVX100 from a boom with a Sennheiser, or from Lav's - and in both cases with perfectly descent results.

Is this simply not possible on the REDONE?

It seems like it from everyone saying how one needs an external mixer.

- Or to phrase the question differently: Does a camera like the Panasonic AG-DVX100 really have a better audioboard than the REDONE?

F.

my thoughts as well. I shot all my shorts using a boom mic going into my DVX100 and for the most part the sounds was usually pretty good.

I will indeed try to find someone in my area who can help with sound and work dirt cheap, but beyond paying the person, I worry about how having a recordist would slow down the production.

[FredrikL]

I was hoping someone would chime in and tell how sound works wonderfully on the RED and that it works not only as good as on the AG-DVX100 - but better...!
And that using an extra portable mixer would be superfluous - atleast for many situations...

[ibirds4]

my thoughts as well. I shot all my shorts using a boom mic going into my DVX100 and for the most part the sounds was usually pretty good.

I will indeed try to find someone in my area who can help with sound and work dirt cheap, but beyond paying the person, I worry about how having a recordist would slow down the production.
I've found that people who've hired me after trying to get by without a sound mixer tell me production speeds up since there is someone on set who knows what they're doing and they don't waste time trouble shooting technical/environmental problems on their own. Plus they always are ecstatic about the sound when they get in to Post.

Of course if you are shooting porn then you can just have a PA hold a boom hardwired into camera and it'll sound fine for what it is.

www.giantsoundservices.com (http://www.giantsoundservices.com)

[Brandon Fraley]

Of course if you are shooting porn then you can just have a PA hold a boom hardwired into camera and it'll sound fine for what it is.

That sounds like a jab, however your other points sound valid. How likely is it to get a recordist that DOESN'T do a good job and I might as well have done it myself?

[Eric S.]

I may not be a professional sound technician, but audio production is certainly a hobby of mine. I use REAPER, a few quality VSTi's, a MOTU interface, a small but effective collection of mics, etc. I don't think it's fair to say that recording audio on-board is only good for the adult industry. Dedicated, quality hardware and personnel are needed for truly great sound, but a good condenser feeding into a DVX100 can certainly produce good sound.

Criticism of on-board audio should cite some form of useful data, not just sweeping rhetoric that doesn't accomplish a whole lot. After all, this is a cordial forum that has brought together a disparate group of people who are all passionate about affordable, quality filmmaking.

Eric

[Brian Langeman]

You can record audio with phantom power into the Red without a mixer and get excellent results. I've done it on a few projects. That limits you though.

The boom operator will be tethered to the camera, which isn't that fun. It's frustrating going through the menus to change levels when you can't even look at the levels while setting the gain. If you had a mixer, you just need to turn the knob while looking at the levels. And forget about riding the levels (changing them as your recording). It's just not possible with the Red.

On my last shoot, we transmitted wireless from the line out of a portable Tascam HD recorder to the Red. This way the audio is with the footage for dailies and easy syncing, while not having the boom operator tethered to the camera. He can set the levels easier, and record with the recorder's preamps and in 24 bit too.

[ibirds4]

I may not be a professional sound technician, but audio production is certainly a hobby of mine. I use REAPER, a few quality VSTi's, a MOTU interface, a small but effective collection of mics, etc. I don't think it's fair to say that recording audio on-board is only good for the adult industry. Dedicated, quality hardware and personnel are needed for truly great sound, but a good condenser feeding into a DVX100 can certainly produce good sound.

Criticism of on-board audio should cite some form of useful data, not just sweeping rhetoric that doesn't accomplish a whole lot. After all, this is a cordial forum that has brought together a disparate group of people who are all passionate about affordable, quality filmmaking.

Eric

Sorry for the miscommunication, I wasn't putting down the RED's audio board, recording straight to camera is completely legit and sounds good. I was more addressing the idea that one doesn't need a sound recordist on set which if you plan to direct, shoot and edit you really don't want to be thinking about audio levels, location sound noises, mic choices and placement and the such.

As for the likeliness of getting a sound mixer that doesn't do a good job I'd just ask for samples of their work and listen to it to see how it compares to whatever you were doing on your own. I'd say anyone who's invested in quality sound gear probably knows what they're doing. Plus if it's the case that you are using the RED preamps along with the built in phantom power, the time needed to insure levels aren't clipping and having to adjust levels inside the RED's menu will slow you down a lot. Here's an article done by sound devices on their tests with the RED's audio board(this was done on the original red not the newly shipped audio board) (May 28, 2008) http://www.sounddevices.com/notes/cameras/red-one/

(A brief quote concerning using the onboard microphone input with the phantom power activated)"Our brief listening test of the microphone inputs verified that they are not suitable for anything but a scratch track, especially when phantom is activated."

One thing to consider is what medium people will be listening to the project on. If it's just computer speakers through a computer or speakers connected to a computers headphone or line out, cheaper mics will be fine. If you plan on your project playing in a theater or home theaters with larger speakers and high quality amps the more critical sound becomes. Pro post sound facilities normally have three sets of speakers to QC on (Large speakers, medium near field monitors and a TV). Having a sound mix that translates to many mediums is the hard part about sound. The main thing is to listen and train your ears which can't be accomplished on forums.

Sorry for the Jab about porn quality sound, but if you've bought a RED I just assume you would want to take the same interest in sound quality as you do picture quality.

www.giantsoundservices.com

[Brandon Fraley]

Sorry for the Jab about porn quality sound, but if you've bought a RED I just assume you would want to take the same interest in sound quality as you do picture quality.[/url]

Thanks for clearing that up. you're absolutely right that sound quality is important to me, which is why i started this thread in the first place. Like I said, I've recorded directly to other cameras many times and often it sounded good, and other times it didn't, so I was curious if anyone could help me make sure I got it to sound as good as possible.

An experienced recordist and boom operator with their own mixer, wireless transmitting to the camera would be ideal. I'm going to ask around, but I just don't think I can afford it.

[Jason Hemmerlin]

That sounds like a jab, however your other points sound valid. How likely is it to get a recordist that DOESN'T do a good job and I might as well have done it myself?

It most likely happens when the camera guy hires his "Buddy" (the guy who can't hold a steady job) and asks him to do sound. The camera guy is thinking that , "Hey, it's sound how hard could it be?", mean while his "Buddy" is thinking, "Yeah, this sounds great. Just like that new NIN album I bought the other day. Man, distorted vocals are awesome!"

When we sound guys are occasionally asked if we know any good camera ops or DP's we usually recommend someone that we have worked with in the past that has been great at what they do and understands the importance of everyone's job.

This isn't a stab at the camera dept., but even camera people can confirm that their are some cam ops and DP's out there who don't think about anything, but their own "vision" and not the project as a whole.