Delay news... sort of.

[Jannard]

OK... here it is.

Several weeks ago we put the RED ONE on an engineering delay to re-design and fab a new sensor board. We have taken this delay time opportunity to improve many other pieces of the electronics puzzle. We are now putting all the pieces of the puzzle back together to prepare for a production camera. This is an incredibly complex project and the last 5% is much more intense than we had ever imagined. But the camera gets better every day.

1. I will not give you our new timeline tonight. I need a few more facts from several suppliers to finish the timeline and should have everything I need to present next Friday. (I hear the collective "ugh")

2. The production camera will be released with core features enabled. Additional features will be enabled by software updates. A projected schedule of those updates will be posted along with anticipated serial number deliveries next Friday.

3. We are now placing a handful of Beta prototypes (named but not serial numbered) before production begins. The primary purpose of these cameras will be to shoot major motion pictures by some of the most recognized professionals in the industry. These cameras will have minimum features... not enough for a production release but more than enough to shoot a high-budget film. These projects will give us the most thorough and comprehensive field testing a camera has ever been subjected to. We will have our field reps present at each project to watch over the production, baby-sit the cameras and workflow and give important feedback for any final changes that will go into the production cameras.

4. We plan to move as quickly as possible to production cameras. We are not looking at next year. We are not looking at the end of this year to begin production. I will fill in the details of what we are looking at next week.

I don't like this delay. I do like taking enough time to make sure the camera exceeds expectations. We fully understand that we are testing the patience of some of our customers. If you are nervous, we will promptly refund your deposit "plus". We appreciate, more than you know, those that are hanging in there with us.

Jim

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1181945071.jpg

[Michael Mann]

Take all the time you need. I can wait. Thanks for the information.

[Chris Forbes]

ugh . .

[Joe Aurili]

There you go folks!

[Jesse Wendel]

Jim.

Do what you need to do. I trust you and the RED Team.

Best wishes,
Jesse Wendel

[Kyle Mallory]

But Jim...

I know exactly were all those pieces fit... Whats the problem? Do you need my help? ;-)

Everyone hates the smart-ass...

[Jannard]

For those that want to know the refund policy (although I personally think it would be a big mistake)...

Reservations placed at or before IBC last year= $1200
Reservations placed after the close of IBC last year= $1100

Just so you have all the info.

Jim

[Jannard]

Please note from the puzzle pic above, all the pieces are there. Just not in place yet.

Jim

[Michael Schrengohst]

I have waited 30 years for a camera like this.
I can wait a little longer.

[Zk2007]

I somehow knew that would the most we would get today. I never believed a shipping schedule would be posted today. I guess that's a good thing so I'm not fully disappointed and neither will I be if nothing happens next Friday.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Sounds fair and good to me... Oh, I meant "ugh".

Thanks Jim.

[Steve Gibby]

Thanks for the update and frankness Jim. Much appreciated...

In view of what you have explained, I support the delay 100%

I'll look forward to next Friday's announcement...

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks Jim and with a good wish and great hope for the next Friday.

[Mardi_Gras]

Another 168 hours to go... kinda expected this. It's alright Jim, at least you and the team are on top of it. I'll still be here...

[johannperry]

thanks jim for the info. No worries here. Take your time.

[Dan Blanchett]

Thanks for the update Jim. We'd love to hear what movies if and when you are allowed to disclose that.

[Zach Hilton]

Yes thanks. Ugh, but thanks. Will there be any updates to us, or news on how the Beta's are performing in actual production? That would be great!

[Joel Kaye]

Thanks - it would be kinda nice if you posted at some known time so people aren't hammering the server for hours. Say... 00:00 A.M GMT next Friday or Saturday.

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

Please note from the puzzle pic above, all the pieces are there. Just not in place yet.

Jim

OK guys, let´s help Jim and his team here, I´ll start:

The piece on the left, center should be turned slightly counter clockwise and then inserted where the missing piece at the front of the lens mount...

Let´s help out here people, we´ll get this jigsaw puzzle done in a matter of minutes!

On a more serious note: Take the time needed, I want my camera as soon as possible, but I want a working camera, one that does what it´s supposed to do for a long time! (And I am ok, with software updates).

Thanks for the update Jim and RED.

[S. Um]

Thanks for the update Jim. I'm glad you're able to take advantage of the delay to improve other parts of the camera.

Do you think you can also give us an update on some of the other "missing" pieces such as the magic focus and exposure indicators?

[Adrian T.]

Take your time. In RED we trust.

...and "ugh". :tongue:

[Ronnie Silos]

Besides, it's fun getting posts like "The hunt for Red Before October".

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2869&page=2

[Adam C Lubkin]

I for one am pleased that Red has had this extra time to tweak things, and likewise I'm happy about the beta units being out there. Although I would have benefited from the original schedule in terms of having a bigger head start over most other Red owners, and the business advantage that entails, it's good to know that when #72 does arrive it will be that much more dialed in.

[Chris Gearhart]

Hey, I have plenty to keep me busy. Thanks Jim for the update.

[David Cubbage]

Thanks for the update Jim; A real cliff hanger, can't wait till next weeks episode!

Good luck Red Team.

[Craig Bowman]

Thanks Jim. When I made my reservation last year, I knew I would have my camera when it was ready. Nothing has changed in the slightest on that expectation. Nice to have the continued play by play.

[Costelloe Michael]

Thanks for the info Jim... Any chance of letting me know which productions are taking Red cameras, you can pm me the details, I wont tell anyone else. No really.. honest I wont..

Mike C

[Jaime Vallés]

Best of luck, Team Red. Take your time.

[Barry Gregg]

The Revolution must wait.

[Tom Lowe]

As I've stated before, I think it was clear by early this year that spring and summer were never going to happen. End of this year is much more realistic. Jim and them are as excited as the rest of us, so we can't really count on them to be the "cooler heads" that prevail. :)

Planning shoots for this summer or fall was never realistic, IMO, so people should just relax and know that these guys are working their asses off to get this thing done. Does anyone actually doubt that??

[Costelloe Michael]

It's just unfortunate that the hype from NAB wasn't tamed before the date was released. I don't think any of us raised expectations until after the release of 'Crossing The Line'. We're back on a new track now and I for one appreciate the placement of Red on 'major' features it can only help development in the best way.

Mike C

[C.H.Haskell]

Jim...Great news about beta RED in film productions, look forward to field results surfacing. Would be great if RED published some of this as well. Until next Friday!

Cheers

[mediapod]

Oh the anticipation! Will only make the arrival all the more sweet.
I can't express how excited I'll be when the delivery man knocks on my door with a couple of boxes from Jim!

[Alex Boothby]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/9_1181945071.jpg

I don't know about you guys but I'd be willing to sacrifice the top left and bottom right puzzel pieces.

[Martin Drew]

Hey Jim. I think I may have solved your problem...

http://www.reduser.net/forum/uploaded/59_1181948366.jpg

Glad to have been of service

M

[Ben Ponce]

Nice. Even Michael Mann (Miami Vice, Last of the Mohicans...JK) threw his thanks to Jim in there! Seriously how bout you just wet our appetite while we wait for more info Jim? Tell us who these other "recognized professionals" are and what movies they'll be shooting with Red one. That would keep us going until your next announcement!

[Ramesh Jai]

OK guys, let´s help Jim and his team here, I´ll start:

The piece on the left, center should be turned slightly counter clockwise and then inserted where the missing piece at the front of the lens mount...

Let´s help out here people, we´ll get this jigsaw puzzle done in a matter of minutes!

On a more serious note: Take the time needed, I want my camera as soon as possible, but I want a working camera, one that does what it´s supposed to do for a long time! (And I am ok, with software updates).

Thanks for the update Jim and RED.
LOL! (about the puzzle solving suggestions..)

[Frank Weeks]

Thanks Jim.

Take your time. Get it right.

[Evin Grant]

I take a glass half full approach... in other words the longer the delay the more glass and accessories I can afford (to a point).
http://www.reduser.net/evin/Noct.jpg

[Ramesh Jai]

I for one am pleased that Red has had this extra time to tweak things, and likewise I'm happy about the beta units being out there. Although I would have benefited from the original schedule in terms of having a bigger head start over most other Red owners, and the business advantage that entails, it's good to know that when #72 does arrive it will be that much more dialed in.
I have a feeling that when the problems are sorted out, mass production of RED will commence and the #'s will not mean anything...

And me too 'Ugh...'

[Shane Betts]

For those that want to know the refund policy (although I personally think it would be a big mistake)...

Reservations placed at or before IBC last year= $1200
Reservations placed after the close of IBC last year= $1100
Jim

Not getting a lot of takers there Jim. Good thing your business doesn't rely on giving refunds:-)

I wonder how long it's gonna take before the camera assistants are allowed to touch the new camera...

[regista]

I'm pretty confident that RED will be well worth both the money and the wait. Fortunately, our own production schedule here gives us pretty good leeway, given the loose ballparks Mr. Jannard hinted at today. So... What, me worry?

[S. Um]

I take a glass half full approach... in other words the longer the delay the more glass and accessories I can afford (to a point).


Evin, I think your glass is pretty full already. :tongue:

[Häakon]

I have a feeling that when the problems are sorted out, mass production of RED will commence and the #'s will not mean anything...

And me too 'Ugh...'
I'm getting that feeling, too.

[Jason Francois]

Good things come to those who wait.

[Thom Steinhoff]

I look at it this way.

The sofware, which wasn't ready anyway, is getting closer to being done as fast (hey maybe faster) than it would be if early production models have gone out.

Beta cameras are going into big budget production which can only make the final production cameras better: If Jarred (who I assume is going to be baby sitting the biggest production) sees a hardware change necessary to make the production cameras better, he can push to get the change in even before production cameras have started building (rather than have the first hundred different than the next)

Also, by supporting "shipping" cameras with credit cards/returns/exchanges/repairs will only slow things down--this way they can focus on beta testing and finishing the software.

Bug budget beta testers? Who can ask for anything more?!!

[Gianny Trutmann]

Thanks for the update Jim, will wait for next friday.

[Adrian T.]

Bug budget beta testers?

Nice Freudian slip! :bleh:

[David Battistella]

[QUOTE=Jannard;51344]OK... here it is.
We are not looking at next year. We are not looking at the end of this year to begin production.
Jim


I think this is a typo. We are NOT looking at next year. We are NOT looking at the end of this year.


If it is not the end of this year and not next year, does this mean it is next week?

I think this must be a typo. MAYBE: We are NOT looking at next year. We ARE looking at the end of this year.

I hope so.


David

[Robin Hood]

Thanks for everything you have done, Jim! I love the way the Red company works; changing the film industry forever. What do you think about letting an independent medieval fantasy use one of the Betas for a couple of weeks this August? I think it could be great for both of us! Red can show the full spectrum of it's applications: the studio pictures and the low-budget ones. I'd love to share footage of the shoot one this board. Let's see what can be done with a Red on an action film when you don't have millions of dollars to throw around!

(I'm completely serious. This would be a fantastic film for the Red to go through it's paces on. E-mail me! I'll send you a script.)

[Ramesh Jai]

[QUOTE=Jannard;51344]OK... here it is.
We are not looking at next year. We are not looking at the end of this year to begin production.
Jim


I think this is a typo. We are NOT looking at next year. We are NOT looking at the end of this year.


If it is not the end of this year and not next year, does this mean it is next week?

I think this must be a typo. MAYBE: We are NOT looking at next year. We ARE looking at the end of this year.

I hope so.


David
Or (gulp) we are NOW looking at next year...

[Gregory Karydis]

Relax Jim, you won't get an "ugh" from me no matter how hard you try.

Well, I may be a nobody compared to the names in this thread but thank you for making the RED One the Perfect One.
I can wait as long as it takes though I wouldn't call it "waiting", more like I'll answer when the time comes and my number's up.
Thanks and have a grrrrrreat weekend! (do these guys even take a day off?)

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I think it's simple: We aren't looking at next year, and we aren't looking at the end of this year, so when you rule out "the end" of this year, which is basically July onwards, and we know the beta cameras are going to be on some sets in the immediate future, you can rule out this year, and since it's not next year, we're probably looking more around 2009, at the earliest. ;)

haha, j/k.

[Chris Forbes]

I like the Beta cameras going out, I hate that they are going to movies. Which means we won't see any footage. I like that they are going to movies which means we increase our credibility with producers. I hate that we will have to wait to see the footage.

Oh and did I mention that I hate that we will have cameras in the wild but we won't be able to see any of the footage.

Sorry for being annoying.

[Hrvoje Simic]

I like the symbolism...

Thank you for being so open and honest. We're with you.
The greatest things require patience.

This is a rollercoaster ride. Enjoy it folks.
Without the downs you wouldn't love the ups so much

yin and yang...

[Robin Hood]

I like the Beta cameras going out, I hate that they are going to movies. Which means we won't see any footage.

I'd happily share my footage! Days, nights, torches, explosions, sword fights, wire-work, everything! We could see what it does under all kinds of conditions!:)

[Clayton Harper]

So, features going into preproduction in the next few weeks will get the cameras. This implies at least a month of shooting and testing at the very least plus the original ramp-up to get the "named" beta cameras in the field. Then another month to tweak the design and ramp up production.

So, the earliest I can start washing Gibby's car is like the end of August....

[Don Woods]

Thanks Jim for the update. Hang in there guys. We are behind you and if it takes 5 years witch I know it wont to get my cameras I will still be behind this project. I am very excited about the bata cameras. It will be fantastic to see RED shooting majior projects even if I can't have one yet. Keep up the good work.

[Simon Blackledge]

iphone release June.... June 29th at 6pm.. s**t happens.. such is life etc.

"sort of..." lol.. respect.

S

[KETCH ROSSi]

Hey Jim,

I'm with you and hope most of as are, no matter what at the end of the day we know, this never was like building a car out of lego, so again good luck and keep every body busy at RED.

Also thanks again for continuing to take time away from your very buisy days, just so you can communicate to as.

Ciao

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com

[Finner]

I have a feeling that when the problems are sorted out, mass production of RED will commence and the #'s will not mean anything...


I agree I think having a low number is not going to mean you get the camera much sooner then someone that orders in the next few months.

[Don Woods]

I do want to get my RED's like tomorrow. But I do have to look at the bright side. It looks like I will get to pay cash. For both of mine. Not have to borrow money on some of it. I will own them they will be mine. And i will hold them and love them and tell them they are special... Oh sorry guys got lost there for a minute.

[Jarred Land]

I like the Beta cameras going out, I hate that they are going to movies. Which means we won't see any footage. I like that they are going to movies which means we increase our credibility with producers. I hate that we will have to wait to see the footage.

Oh and did I mention that I hate that we will have cameras in the wild but we won't be able to see any of the footage.

Sorry for being annoying.

not annoying at all.

And dont worry.. cameras will be in the wild but we will have cameras at home and pending on how busy we are I have an idea for Milk Girls 2 to tie everyone over before the floodgates open :)

[Clayton Harper]

I agree I think having a low number is not going to mean you get the camera much sooner then someone that orders in the next few months.

Daren,

I used to feel special. Now I just feel special retarded.

[chuck colburn]

Milk Girls 2! YUM
How about MG-2-3D?
Gibby? Max? Tim?

[Zakaree Sandberg]

all i know is i better get one of those sweet puzzles with my red!!


PS.. i was too lazy to go through 2-6 of this thread.. so forgive me if someone beat me to the chase

[regista]

I have an idea for Milk Girls 2 to tie everyone over before the floodgates open :)

You ain't bluffin'! So, I'm all in!!!

:biggrin:

[Simon Blackledge]

I do want to get my RED's like tomorrow. But I do have to look at the bright side. It looks like I will get to pay cash. For both of mine. Not have to borrow money on some of it. I will own them they will be mine. And i will hold them and love them and tell them they are special... Oh sorry guys got lost there for a minute.


I'll have whatever he's drinking!.. ;)

[Desert Rune]

Please note from the puzzle pic above, all the pieces are there. Just not in place yet.

Dear Jim,

Eight pieces are not in place which would indicate the puzzle is still 14.3% incomplete.

[/smartass]

[Mardi_Gras]

not annoying at all.

And dont worry.. cameras will be in the wild but we will have cameras at home and pending on how busy we are I have an idea for Milk Girls 2 to tie everyone over before the floodgates open :)
Instead of doing something new, I think the majority of us will be better served seeing the full JP short film online. That will be a much better proposition at this point in time.

[regista]

And I'm already thinking about placing an order for a second RED, but will probably wait to see how my tests on the first one come out, though. We'll see...

[Blair S. Paulsen]

As the holder of a low rez number (19) I am feeling like some of my competitive advantage has been lost in the evolving scenario. I was hoping to have the opportunity to be an on set babysitter / troubleshooter on a big production or two this year. I was even hoping to get a premium rental rate to pay off my rig quicker.

Do I deserve this advantage just because I saw the potential so early and put my money where my opinion was?

I certainly don't have an axe to grind with RED, nobody ever promised that the time between shipping serial #19 and #600 (about the point where I estimate the scarcity factor will abate significantly) would be 6 months.

I was kind of looking forward to the adventure of having one of the early handbuilt cameras, being a de-facto Beta tester and leveraging my way onto some big shows - it would have been a gas.

Ultimately its Jim's camera and he can provide them to whomever he wants before he ships me #19. I still feel very lucky to be a part of the Rebellion and am totally geeked up to shoot with the RedOne - 4k rez, 12bit RAW color space in a wavelet codec at under 30MB/sec using a S35 sized sensor with 11+ stops of latitude - that's what I'm talking about!

[Matt Setnes]

1) Will early reservations end up becoming a pointless investment in regards to those who reserved before NAB?

2) Upgrades? I already assumed the camera specs are as is displayed on the red.com website; does this mean otherwise?

3) I really dislike this early camera handout to big player with reputation and money. This is a smack in the face to the devoted believers and reservation holders. Despite any response I may get from this one, the fact is the reservation # should of had a meaning. To release it to big boys for testing purposes is still a slap to my reservation and time waiting effort.


I'm still a firm red believer and will keep my reservation, but not for long if news continues like this. I'm just very unsatisfied, venting, and would really like to know why the big players are getting access to it when I'm sure a majority of them we're in disbelief up until NAB reviews.

[Emanuel A.]

4. We plan to move as quickly as possible to production cameras. We are not looking at next year. We are not looking at the end of this year to begin production. I will fill in the details of what we are looking at next week.These are really great news -- thanks! I'm glad to hear that.

[David Battistella]

Emanuel,

Can you describe how you interpret this? Reading it again, I think mass production could start in September.

David

[Joe Aurili]

At least a reservation gives you the discount.

I see what you are saying about the beta testers, but it will make a much better camera for release.


1) Will early reservations end up becoming a pointless investment in regards to those who reserved before NAB?

2) Upgrades? I already assumed the camera specs are as is displayed on the red.com website; does this mean otherwise?

3) I really dislike this early camera handout to big player with reputation and money. This is a smack in the face to the devoted believers and reservation holders. Despite any response I may get from this one, the fact is the reservation # should of had a meaning. To release it to big boys for testing purposes is still a slap to my reservation and time waiting effort.


I'm still a firm red believer and will keep my reservation, but not for long if news continues like this. I'm just very unsatisfied, venting, and would really like to know why the big players are getting access to it when I'm sure a majority of them we're in disbelief up until NAB reviews.

[Clayton Harper]

3) I really dislike this early camera handout to big player with reputation and money. This is a smack in the face to the devoted believers and reservation holders. Despite any response I may get from this one, the fact is the reservation # should of had a meaning. To release it to big boys for testing purposes is still a slap to my reservation and time waiting effort.


Camera tests are 100% needed. In reality the field testing on real shows will help to refine the camera which was something I for one was worried about. There ain't no substitute for the harsh realities of production and all the gremlins that pop up. Besides, the price is still the same, right?

At the same time, it sort of seems like some major players don't have to buy a camera like everyone else. Revolutions sometimes mostly serve the purposes the new Oligarchy. :biggrin:

[Antoine Fabi]

Well...if that's all that it takes, i'm ready to make a film and change my serial number for a name on the camera...

...and after that i will be recognized...

OK, seriously, i think that if the waiting is not too long...it makes sense.
Anyway, we dont have any choice.
That's reality.

[Tom Lowe]

1) Will early reservations end up becoming a pointless investment in regards to those who reserved before NAB?

2) Upgrades? I already assumed the camera specs are as is displayed on the red.com website; does this mean otherwise?

3) I really dislike this early camera handout to big player with reputation and money. This is a smack in the face to the devoted believers and reservation holders. Despite any response I may get from this one, the fact is the reservation # should of had a meaning. To release it to big boys for testing purposes is still a slap to my reservation and time waiting effort.


I'm still a firm red believer and will keep my reservation, but not for long if news continues like this. I'm just very unsatisfied, venting, and would really like to know why the big players are getting access to it when I'm sure a majority of them we're in disbelief up until NAB reviews.

Dude, are you kidding? You hold a reservation in the 1300s and you consider it a "slap in the face" that prototype cameras are actually being tested by professionals before they mass produce them?? Give me a break.

These sorts of tests and extra time for unforeseen problems should have been taken into account by anyone with any sense. Our camera is #400 and I knew all along this would be the reality. You can't leapfrog several generations of technology in a couple of months! That's why I planned my first RED shoot for very late summer 2008. Anyone who thought they'd be shooting this summer was being naive, IMO.

Like I said, Jim and them are as enthusiastic as we are, so it's up to each of us to keep a realistic view on this. And keep in mind, by this point, there is no way in hell Jannard is even coming close to making a profit on the first few thousand cameras. He's doing this for the love of doing it, and for people like us. It's obvious he's stressed out, it's not like he's taking it lightly and blowing people off. Just the opposite. So let's cut some slack here.

[chuck colburn]

Camera tests are 100% needed. In reality the field testing on real shows will help to refine the camera which was something I for one was worried about. There ain't no substitute for the harsh realities of production and all the gremlins that pop up. Besides, the price is still the same, right?

At the same time, it sort of seems like some major players don't have to buy a camera like everyone else. Revolutions sometimes mostly serve the purposes the new Oligarchy. :biggrin:

About the part of real world testing... You are absolutly spot on. Once upon a time there was a 65mm camera that everybody swore was ready for the field, but low and behold on the first shoot it was found to scratch film if you pointed it down at an acute angle. My but there were some red (no pun intened) faces that day. Now I realized that this was a mechanical problem.. but there is NO subsitute for actual field testing of whatever the product is.

[Floris Liesker]

3) I really dislike this early camera handout to big player with reputation and money. This is a smack in the face to the devoted believers and reservation holders. Despite any response I may get from this one, the fact is the reservation # should of had a meaning. To release it to big boys for testing purposes is still a slap to my reservation and time waiting effort.

Settle down, Beavis. I don't see any problem in JJ handing out beta's to major filmshoots. The majority of filmmakers still needs to be convinced this camera is any good against regular 35, and there's no better way to do that than to make actual movies with it.

And besides, with res # 1376 you're not such an early adopter at all.
A smack in the face? Come on...

[Gavin Greenwalt]

How about a little RED challenge to hold us over.

Give 3 weeks to make a pitch for a 2 day shoot (short film) and then let the winner shoot with a RED beta for 2 days with a DP of RED's choosing.

Think of it as Over The Line 2 only with the chance for one lucky RED User forum member to take over for peter jackson.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

The milk girls were HOT, I would like to see them in full 4K beauty ;) hehe.

Look at some of the pictures from the SI-2K... the one girl isn't even cute, come on, you don't benefit from 4K resolution or 2K resolution if you have nothing to shoot. In fact you'd be better off using a 1 CCD MiniDV cam, that way people would be like, "Hmm she may be cute, can't really tell, all of the grain and artifacts obscure her looks. She could be hot!" But shoot a mediocre girl in 2K or 4K and it's pretty obvious she don't got it. ;)

More milk girls wanted.

[Daniel Reichenbach]

The revolution is eating up there children. Dont' know, why it should not be possible, to handle out some of the beta cameras to some of the first reservation holders. I understand that for business reasons Jim has to give the first test cameras to the major film industrie. But it would be great if some of the first RED believers in the states and in europe would get the chance to be a part of the test field. I'm absolutely shure, RED will be the best camera out there no doubt about it. But that would be kind of fair.

[Shawn Nelson]

I agree I think having a low number is not going to mean you get the camera much sooner then someone that orders in the next few months.

I am beginnning to worry about that, and it really bums me out. All this time I was hoping that having #27 would turn into a real advantage, but the longer these delays go the more it get's diluted out.

EDIT: It's still possible that Jim could sweeten the deal a bit more for reservation holders. Originally it was forcasted that this camera would ship at the end of 2006. I mean, he sure doesn't have to, but he might. Santa sometimes returns to stuff the stocking a little higher :-)

[Antoine Fabi]

I agree artbeatsart,

That would sound fair.

I perfectly understand the reality and the need for RED to provide cameras to major film companies, but i have stamped in my mind that the whole project was intended to help people, small producers to have access to the best tool. At least, that's what i understood a year ago.

Very good and positive suggestion artbeatsart.

BTW, if big film companies WILL use the cameras, in my mind, that also means the camera is capable of the very best picture. That is the good new.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I can understand how people with early reservation numbers would be bummed about that, but I hope that is the case because at least that means that for me -- being near the end of the line -- I wouldn't have to wait a set amount of time after the first RED ships. Maybe if it had shipped by now, I'd be waiting 6 months after shipment, maybe 7 or 8, but now if it ships in September I might only wait 4-5 months, who knows, I hope so anyway.

[Tom Lowe]

How about a little RED challenge to hold us over.

Give 3 weeks to make a pitch for a 2 day shoot (short film) and then let the winner shoot with a RED beta for 2 days with a DP of RED's choosing.

Think of it as Over The Line 2 only with the chance for one lucky RED User forum member to take over for peter jackson.

Great idea! I want Mullen. :)

[MosesMa]

Hey,

I think you guys are masters of dramatic tension! I only hope you're shooting some footage during these last few months to release. It could make a GREAT reality TV show.

I feel for you. From my videogame designing days, I used to tell the troops "The last two percent takes 20% of the time, budget and anguish, but it's what determines the difference between a hit and an also ran."

So do whatever you have to, to bring this baby home. Best of luck to the entire team!

MM

[Häakon]

Dude, are you kidding? You hold a reservation in the 1300s and you consider it a "slap in the face" that prototype cameras are actually being tested by professionals before they mass produce them?? Give me a break.
It shouldn't matter if he's number 10 or number 1400. If he has a reservation, it means he ponied up early, took a chance, put down his money, and invested in the company. I can see how any reservation holder would consider it a smack in the face for someone else to skip way ahead in line and get to shoot their movie with the camera just because they have a recognized name or deep pockets. That's not to say that Jim can't run his company however he wishes, but lay off the poster - some of us have been waiting a hell of a lot longer and we still don't know when the cameras are coming (hopefully that will be handled next week, though most of us thought it would be handled today (or "early 2007," or whenever)).

As far as "being tested by the professionals," Jim said flat out that the cameras are being used to "shoot major motion pictures," not point them at res charts and greycards. While of COURSE using them in a production environment will help to bring flaws to the surface, the reservation holders in the first batch were aware of the situation already. We were told way back that the first set of cameras would have "minimal features" and that they'd be "software upgradable" through the development process and we even had the option to "wait it out" until the production cameras were 100% feature-enabled before we took possession if we wanted. We were fine with that, because as Blair mentioned, we understood that being an early reservation holder meant along with the little snags of a first-gen product, we would also get the perks of having the camera early. This is looking less and less like the case as time goes on. Jim even mentioned in the last update that the delays would likely only affect the earlier serial numbers, so it's a lot easier for someone with a serial of, say, 400, to be less concerned with the news.

Before anyone takes MY post the wrong way, understand that I have been on board with this project since reservations were first made available and I have been an incredibly ardent supporter of the camera, Graeme's workflow, and the RED philosophy the whole time. I've worked very hard to promote and educate users about the project over the last year and a half, and I know I've sent more than a few customers their way. And my passion for RED hasn't dwindled a bit; I'm still every bit as excited to adopt RED ONE into my arsenal as I was at the beginning. But just because I love the people behind RED and the product they have created does not make me a blind sheep that is there to offer condolences to Jim every time he makes a post. To be critical is to care. And I don't think anyone with a reservation is running to the hills anytime soon. But as the (unfortunate) delays begin to pile up and the consistent news of "we'll let you know more later" starts to sting, I don't think anyone should be bashed for expressing their concern.

Just my two cents.

[conrad gaunt]

That all sounds good to me.

[planet e]

so, who is ready to turn in their reservation number due to these maddening delays, let's see a show of hands...

thought so...

best of luck to jim and his team. this can't be easy. every other company in the world has the luxury of instituting product delays without listening to their critics daily.

after all, sony has had its fingers in its ears, singing "la la la la la" in response to its customers for years....

things we're still waiting on:

32GB P2

affordable Blu-Ray delivery

XL H1 with embedded HD-SDI audio

the beat goes on....

when RED is ready, i'll be ready....

[Poi Boy]

I hear what you are saying Haakon...let's hope for the best next Friday.
Aloha
-A

[Shawn Nelson]

Excellent post Haakon. I am bummed watching my early reservation become progressively less and less valuable. I guess I'm just hoping something occurs to bring back some value for being willing to take a leap of faith for Jim and Red co.

[Tom Lowe]

Well Häakon, you're pointing to the fact that I have #400 and saying it's easier for me to be chill about it, but I was addressing a guy with a reservation in the 1300s who was saying he was "being slapped in the face" by Jannard, just because they are field testing the camera with professionals.

You're a smart guy, so I am assuming you were able to read between the lines like any smart person would and know that this thing was not going to be shooting features this summer or fall. I remember specifically talking to YOU about it over on the DVXuser forum, when I was telling people to be cautious about planning shoots too early. It was easy to know that there was no way this camera would be tested, completed, manufactured, and out to people anytime early this year.

I understand your frustration, but what are Jim and them supposed to do? They are working as hard as they can. It will be ready just as soon as they can get it ready. What else needs to be said? Are you claiming that by having the cameras tested on a set while they are trying to fix some glitches that this is somehow slowing down the camera going into production for someone with a # 80 camera? The camera is not ready yet, plain and simple.

[HD Hildebrand]

Reading Jim's post - I felt like I was reading the minutes of the Red stakeholders meeting....

Wouldn't it be nice if all companies treated their customers like stakeholders!

[Häakon]

Well Häakon, you're pointing to the fact that I have #400 and saying it's easier for me to be chill about it, but I was addressing a guy with a reservation in the 1300s who was saying he was "being slapped in the face" by Jannard, just because they are field testing the camera with professionals.
I appreciate your reply, but there are two separate issues at hand here: one is that at several motion pictures are being shot right now with RED cameras well before any reservation holder (who put money down 18 months ago) has had the chance to, and two is that because of the delays, they've been able to address other issues which will in turn shorten production between the earlier serial numbers and the rest of the lot (and potentially minimize any advantage of being an early reservation holder). The poster you originally quoted (in the 1300s) was taking issue with the first situation, and my post about the delays (and your serial number) was the second. Just so we're clear. :-)

[Jannard]

I am bummed watching my early reservation become progressively less and less valuable.

Shawn... I've always liked you. But I disagree with you on this point.

Thanks again for my NAB present.

Jim

[Shawn Nelson]

Shawn... I've always liked you. But I disagree with you on this point.

Thanks again for my NAB present.

Jim

Okay, thanks for noticing. I am glad you disagree! I'm simply noticing that the window between when my camera is ready and when everyone else's is ready appears to be narrowing. If this isn't the case or if there is some other advantage to being #27 that I don't know of, then I'm cool. I mean, I really am just talking about whether I get the cherry on the banana split at this point. Please don't mistake my questions or comments for genuine grousing.

I'm glad you like the present! I enjoyed getting to meet you.

[PaulClements]

Are any of the field testers reservation holders or members of this community at all?

If not then I only hope these shoots don't employ any of the many individuals who have been putting the camera down from the beginning. I don't mind others testing it but it's the thought of people who have said we're all crazy for buying into it getting their dirty mitts on the camera before any RedUsers ever get to :). It'd be actually quite insulting to find someone who's been bashing the camera come on here to tell us all how good it is. I was also looking forward to this community being the ones to showcase the cameras capabilities to the world.

Nevermind though. :sad:

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It shouldn't matter if he's number 10 or number 1400. If he has a reservation, it means he ponied up early, took a chance, put down his money, and invested in the company. I can see how any reservation holder would consider it a smack in the face for someone else to skip way ahead in line and get to shoot their movie with the camera just because they have a recognized name or deep pockets.

I think on the surface it may seem like they may be sidestepping the first reservation holders. But we don't even have many facts to go on here, or do we have any? Beta testing cameras is different than shipping viable production units (which the reservation numbers are for). The RED crew will be best serving their needs and all of us reservation holders by rigorously testing the cameras to the fullest extents possible. And it seems to make perfect sense that they would try to place beta units in the hands of big name, big budget productions so they can be worked over immediately. It's also good marketing for RED to get these cameras out there in such a way.

I don't have a very low number, but I think that if I did, I wouldn't feel much different about it. I'm jones'n for my RED as much as anyone else here, I think. And if I were a low number holder, I would be glad that the cameras are being thoroughly tested before I commit to using one on a production. Not all of us want to be or have time to be beta testers. Admittedly though, I'd love to be one in this situation... But I don't have the resources or production facilities to do the task justice.

[Tom Lowe]

I appreciate your reply, but there are two separate issues at hand here: one is that at several motion pictures are being shot right now with RED cameras well before any reservation holder (who put money down 18 months ago) has had the chance to, and two is that because of the delays, they've been able to address other issues which will in turn shorten production between the earlier serial numbers and the rest of the lot (and potentially minimize any advantage of being an early reservation holder). The poster you originally quoted (in the 1300s) was taking issue with the first situation, and my post about the delays (and your serial number) was the second. Just so we're clear. :-)

Yeah, I understand. and I do understand your frustration, but what can be done at this point? i know that you realize these things happen in life. yes, people with early numbers will probably lose some cache, if the production really goes straight into full swing, but you know as well as i do that life isn't always fair. what are they supposed to do at this point?....only manufacture 200, then stop, so the early-number guys can "get an edge"? really, what are you suggesting?

Testing these cameras on major studio shoots is a great idea, IMO - for two reasons. First of all, us guys around here are mainly just amateurs compared the people working on a $100 million movies, like the one shooting with Red in Europe right now, or with Peter Jackson doing tests in NZ. What is going to be a better real-world test while they are busy trying to sort out these manufacturing/technical issues? - major movies with super-knowledgeable and respected ACS guys putting these cameras through ever conceivable situation on giant sets, or yahoos like us fiddling around with them? These are not production cameras they are shooting with now, they are prototypes, so it's kind of a false dichotomy to suggest that these prototypes would be in Shawn's hands, for example, if they were not in the hands of the studio guys using them now. They would not be in anyone's hands, except Red employees. Also, by testing these out on major shoots with famous crews, actors, DPs, etc, it is going to generate great buzz and help establish the camera. The more popular and tested and supported the RED camera is, the more likely it is that things such as the rumored Dell 4K flatscreen LCD will actually happen.

the investment was only $1,000, and to be honest with you, all the time all of us have spent here contributing ideas and being a part of this thing -- for me, it has already been time well spent.

[Robin Hood]

I still think it would be beneficial for everyone if you allowed a smaller budget independent film like "The Ice Shield of Aletheia" to use a Beta Camera along with the big budget features, Mr. Jannard. We can prove that you don't have to have 100 million dollars to make a high quality, entertaining film. Even an action film.

This fits in with Red's philosophy. An opportunity for everyone to have access to high quality equipment, not just the richest.

Either way, I'm still excited to use this camera, whether now, or next year, or the next.

[Shawn Nelson]

Hey Jim, I tried to send you a message like I could before, but that appears to be clamped down now. So here is the PM

"Hey Jim,
Sorry for sounding like I was grumping. I'm truly just really excited about being in the very first batch of your cameras and perhaps it is a bit selfish of me to want it before everyone else. I'm very, very glad that you are taking the final production so cautiously. I'll try to stay more positive.
-Shawn"

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Shawn you can still say you're #27, and I still can never say I reserved early enough to get a number, I just ordered after reservations were over ;) lol, that's cool, right?!

But yeah I get what you mean. I'm personally glad in the sense that I wouldn't want to have to wait forever between the early reservation holders getting their cameras and me getting mine. Obviously I'll have to wait, but hopefully not too long (7,8 months would be long).

[Dan Blanchett]

I understand the point of view of early reservation holders, especially the top 100, but at this point I think we should be happy with just getting the damn camera and the already promised $2500. And if its specifications exceed our expectations, all the better.

[Brook Willard]

Thanks for keeping us posted - looking forward to more news and CineGear next week. Any potential chance we can sneak a hint about who has the betas? :)

[RobRoySyd]

Can someone explain to me how you'd convince anyone shooting a $100M production to use prototype cameras?
If nothing else the underwriters would have a heart attack at the mere thought of this.
Putting a prototype camera onto the set of $100M budget production alongside a film camera makes sense. That way if the prototype has a glitch no harm done.
Imagine the potential for negative press letting that $100M production hinge on a prototype camera.

[Chris Gearhart]

I've also been a bit down about the quicker ramp up once things do ship, but, I felt a bit better after thinking of a possible benefit to us who reserved early:

Another way of looking at this is that by the time the production cameras DO begin to ship, the public excitement over Red will be heightened more becuse of the big productions. So there will be less of the "wait and see" to get at our low res numbered cameras. Maybe people will be at our doors quicker and we can be turning the lower-paying jobs down sooner.

[Ken Willinger]

us guys around here are mainly just amateurs compared the people working on a $100 million movies, like the one shooting with Red in Europe right now, or with Peter Jackson doing tests in NZ.
If you make your living doing this kind of work...whether it is a $100 million dollar feature, or your getting paid a daily rate working docs, tv shows or weddings, you are still a professional. And to imply that is not the case is insulting. Please just speak for yourself. If you consider yourself an amateur, great. I feel just as entitled as the next guy, even though I do not work on $100 milion dollar features.

[Antoine Fabi]

I truly want to believe all this.

But i think our frustration mainly comes from not knowing any res holder as a beta tester. Some of us are true experts ( no...not me).

Second, i dont undertand why a major film company would shoot with a camera before a basic beta testing had been conducted.
How can beta testing be conducted during a big production shooting ?

Maybe it's my poor english, but i feel i'm missing something.

Not that i want to be negative.

I want to be Positive !

[Finner]

It shouldn't matter if he's number 10 or number 1400. If he has a reservation, it means he ponied up early, took a chance, put down his money, and invested in the company. I can see how any reservation holder would consider it a smack in the face for someone else to skip way ahead in line and get to shoot their movie with the camera just because they have a recognized name or deep pockets.

Yep, feels like the good old days of elementary school where the big kids got to cut in line at the drinking fountain. At least in school the principal would punish the them for cutting in line if they were caught and not usher them to the front.

If the projects the beta cameras are being used for are red test based and not commercially based for profit movies then I am misunderstanding this and am totally wrong. If not then I have trouble seeing it any other way then big guys win and money talks.

[Chris Gearhart]

I think we all need to go get a good night's rest--we're getting cranky with eachother. Anyone else feel like they need a hug?

[Poi Boy]

I need more than a hug, finner's avatar makes me so hot ! lol
-A

[Antoine Fabi]

I think we all need to go get a good night's rest--we're getting cranky with eachother. Anyone else feel like they need a hug?

not a bad idea...

[Tom Lowe]

I feel just as entitled as the next guy, even though I do not work on $100 milion dollar features.

Sorry I was just speaking hyperbolically.

Still, I'm sure you can understand why having these cameras tested on a big movie set would be useful. And again, having prototypes tested by studio productions does not take anything away from people with reservation numbers, since they are simply prototypes, and manufacturing has not even begun.

[Chris Gearhart]

Come here everyone.

Well, except Finner. Can you just stand over there? I'll think a happy thought your way.

[David Battistella]

I have been following this thread closely all day.

RED is a revolution. If you want to win you put the guns in all available hands. I think it is great that RED is using the larger productions as a testing ground. To me it shows tremendous confidence in the product. Would you hand it over to someone who could foil your whole revolution in ONE American cinematographer feature article. BRAVO RED team for having the sack to put your product into this kind of trial by fire.

On the point of early reservation holders. You guys have played a critical role and you should be applauded, but you should want thousands of these camera's to ship on the same day. It protects you rather than hurts you. If you have been locked away, hoping that RED would be your "best kept secret" then that is wrong thinking. You got behind a great idea, you helped support it and you should be glad that you did, but expecting an enormously special break for investing 1K is just a bit to much to ask.

It's great that things have taken off. How would you feel if you had invested and felt you should be asking for your money back, or if these guys had run through the cash without a substantial product.

We all applaud you for being the first. We are all going to benfit from that and for that we are going to have to be eternally greatful. There are many souls responsible for any revolution, look at your role for what it is and know that your chutzpa helped make it happen.

Revolution, evolution.

David

[donatello b]

how did we end up with 100 mil budgets ?
it was said a "handful of Beta prototypes " ...which could mean 2-7 projects ? maybe they are being used for SFX , 2nd unit or 10-20 mil budgets or a 3 mil budget ? or there could be one huge budget in there ..


it also states "our field reps present at each project to watch over the production" RED doesn't have alot of employee's so i think that keeps the number of productions under several ??

the more testing the better the camera ... i'd rather have X studio have problems and solve them before i receive a camera ...

there was never a promise that a low serial number would give one a exclusive hold on the camera for X number of days before more are shipped ...
perhaps 20 or maybe 500 will be shipped 1st month ?
IMO the sooner they they get out there in numbers the better for all projects ...

[Jannard]

There are 4 major projects that will receive RED Beta prototypes. None will have audio and all will only record 4K REDCODE RAW.

Jim

[Larry McKee]

We appreciate, more than you know, those that are hanging in there with us.

Jim

You don't know how much we appreciate all the hard work, endless hours, and valuable resources you and the team have put into making this camera possible. Then, after all the blood, sweat, and tears you are offering the cameras to us at an unbelievable price. And taking away as many obstacles as possible by giving us choices in recording options, camera configurations, and output formats. So, thank you once again for hanging in there with us.

[Gregory Karydis]

There are 4 major projects that will receive RED Beta prototypes. None will have audio and all will only record 4K REDCODE RAW.

Jim There you go guys, that's the Principal "punishing" the bigger kids for cutting in line :matrix:

[PeteCoggan]

Wouldn't give up my reservation for any reason. I must say, though, I would like to know what cryteria are being used to define "Major Motion Picture". Waiting patiently for my serial numbers to come up even with a multimillion dollar budgets and shooting Celluloid in the meantime. If you've got a dinger, would love to know when "Named" cameras become an option.

[Zack Birlew]

Good, ran into some delays myself regarding funds (new developments [ie. plug ins, sound equipment, greenscreen, ect.] have eaten up more than expected). So the camera purchase can definitely wait a bit on my front! =)

[planet e]

but expecting an enormously special break for investing 1K is just a bit to much to ask.


second that. jim has actually set the bar low for reservation holders and high for himself.

us: put down $1000, with a better-than-money-back guarantee and a $2500 break on the camera or accessories.

him: design a complete 4K workflow, camera, and accessories from scratch in a year

[Finner]

There you go guys, that's the Principal "punishing" the bigger kids for cutting in line :matrix:

If the punishment is getting a camera before everybody else I am ready to take my licks.

[Keith Alan Morris]

Yep, feels like the good old days of elementary school where the big kids got to cut in line at the drinking fountain. At least in school the principal would punish the them for cutting in line if they were caught and not usher them to the front.

...big guys win and money talks.

Agreed, and I have a simple solution: Give the very first few RedUsers (those that post on this board) a camera, let em shoot, and let em post their work. Hell, let em share a camera if they're scarce.

Its all about the footage. Why not avoid a major shift in policy toward the big kids shooting (footage that will never be seen by us this year) by tossing a real Reduser poster a camera?

Just a thought.

[Michael Schrengohst]

It's like NASCAR, RED needs the visibility and credibility the "bigger players" will provide. If Jeff Gorden went to a new car company and said he would
like to test out the new cars.....
This will get RED free publicity and that is the smartest thing they can
do. Go price what it costs to run a full page ad in a video mag or
on Creative Cow.....

[Alexander Nikishin]

See you at Cine Gear Jim....?

[Finner]

Sounds good RED GUY. I worked on Unforgiven, Legends of the fall, Jumanji, Shanghi noon,The edge and many other large features. So should I get my camera before Gibbys even though I have a camera reserve in the 900's?

Personally I don't think I should.

[Mike the beginner]

I understand the feelings from the very early reservation holders. But lets look at this from reds point of view.

4 "major projects" could gain red another huge publicity/marketing hit with who knows maybe at least another 500 cameras ordered if the projects turn out positive for the red camera. The main advantage points for the red camera like 4k, price, dynamics etc will all shine through and make the camera even more known and talked about, which is likely to make it ever more sought after....

The more red cameras sold the better for a variety of reasons. For me i want to see ten thousand red cameras out there and i want to see pro gear priced accordingly. That will never happen until volumes rise substantially perhaps.

Red camera = $17,500 fantastic value for what it will do and have.

Top quality tripod = $6,000

Top quality mattbox = $3,000

Top quality cine lens = $$$$$

Most other pro gear $$$$

Let me see now......tripod, what is involved in making this???

Mattbox...compare something to put filters in with a red one price comparison

Red One.....what is involved in making this.............Huge undertaking/ cost

The red one is not ready or complete. But the major parts needed to capture great footage does appear to be complete. Big projects are perhaps more interested in the main parts and much less interested in all the small parts that help assist and save money for the smaller budget guys (just guessing guys) so red gain max publicity with the big guys and sell many more cameras.

Production... Jim Jannard has always said right from the start that the camera will not be drip fed type of production. How many cameras can be mass produced per month taking into account some things might need to be checked individually so mass produced in a sense means most things mass produced but some things will greatly slow the process down. How slow i dont know just surmising really.

Just a beginners point of view really....

Mike the beginner

[Joel Kaye]

Originally it was forcasted that this camera would ship at the end of 2006. I mean, he sure doesn't have to, but he might. Santa sometimes returns to stuff the stocking a little higher :-)

Yep - anyone who got in very early probably remembers the first estimates were that a few cameras would probably ship November/December 06. Then people started hoping NAB.

I thought I was being conservative last year when I told people that if they were guessing December then it would probably be May before I see mine. As it sits RED is a solid 8 months behind original estimates...

BUT it's a better camera and workflow now which makes it worth the wait.

PLUS - how many years are they still ahead of the competition?

[Andrew Benz]

Are any of the field testers reservation holders or members of this community at all?

If not then I only hope these shoots don't employ any of the many individuals who have been putting the camera down from the beginning. I don't mind others testing it but it's the thought of people who have said we're all crazy for buying into it getting their dirty mitts on the camera before any RedUsers ever get to :). It'd be actually quite insulting to find someone who's been bashing the camera come on here to tell us all how good it is. I was also looking forward to this community being the ones to showcase the cameras capabilities to the world.

Nevermind though. :sad:

Paul, as usual, my sentiments exactly... honestly, this is such a multi-faceted issue-- I understand and feel the sentiments of most here, no matter which side of the the arguement. The bottom line is Jim and the RED Team need results, feedback for the betterment of the Camera and RED Community... even if we are out of the "early" loop. I simply wish some very early res holders like Gibby, Mark(OffHollywood), (just to name two--though most of you though are in these thoughts) would have been given the same opportunity-- no favoritism towards the studio elite, because if Jim had stated "WE HAVE RED RESERVATIONIST in the mix as well!"-- This would have eased the bitter pill (which I understand) for most.

Jim, having some early RES holders involved in this beta would have helped your cause (which is OUR cause). All that being said... there aren't any billionares busting their asses trying to greatly improve my life, much less deliver tools that I can (now) afford that leave me as the weakest link in the chain of acquisition... and I can shoot anything with anything (i have had too)...

I look forward to next Friday, I should be in my new loft aka live/work space:beta... my world has changed dramatically (for those that know me), now I just need a little RED in it.

Cheers to my fellow REDUSERS!

Andrew Benz

[Michael Schrengohst]

Sounds good RED GUY. I worked on Unforgiven, Legends of the fall, Jumanji, Shanghi noon,The edge and many other large features. So should I get my camera before Gibbys even though I have a camera reserve in the 900's?

Personally I don't think I should.

Nope, the film/video business in general is just too competitive.
All is not fair in love and war or in the film business. If you
were directing a 50 million dollar feature I am sure Jim would
lend you a RED for a week or so.

[S. Um]

Yes, the big kids got to cut to the front of the line, but there's only 4 of them and they're only getting prototype cameras. I think this will help us in the long run because they will be testing the camera's functionality and workflow in a strenuous environment. Hopefully they can flush out the bugs and the production cameras will be more stable. And when people see the footage in the theaters, you and your camera are going to be in more demand. Who knows, maybe some of these productions are reservation holders, too.

And look at it from Jim's perspective. He invested a lot of time and money to make Red a great digital cinema camera. He needs to get the word out about Red, and there's no better way than with big Hollywood productions. He'll probably make more money from the indies, but having the camera used in big productions will certainly increase its cache with the indi crowd.

I'm sure Jim would love to have the production cameras shipping by now, but he doesn't. He's only got a few partially working prototypes, and he's got to put them to work where he'll get the most return.

[Michael Schrengohst]

Red camera = $17,500 fantastic value for what it will do and have.

Top quality tripod = $6,000

Top quality mattbox = $3,000

Top quality cine lens = $$$$$

Most other pro gear $$$$



Just a beginners point of view really....

Mike the beginner

Curt 'CVB' is working on a Matte Box - $1,000???

Tripods are way overpriced....I would love to see a REDPOD.

RED is working on the lenses.....

The competition is heating up in the ProGear arena....

I don't think this has sunk-in on the big bloated companies yet?
May take a while longer, but it is all clearly turning in the Indies favor.
Now if we could work on the distribution channels......................

[Greg Voevodsky]

For all reservation holders, just be thankful that we are getting an incredible camera. This is like the first private flights into space at affordable rates.

Jim is the Burt Rutan of cameras. It's never been done. It will be done when it is done - not according to a man made deadline, rather when it works, and works well. Otherwise, RED and us will lose all respect when the camera does not perform. Best to wait, get camera, practice, then shoot for the stars.

People make predictions, predictions are often wrong. It will be done when Jim says it is period and that is how it should be. (Personally, I think Jim should be more like the Halo creators and say when it done and it's what I want, then it will be done.)

For those trying to make a super profit by being first, like selling water after a hurricane... I'd say be happy to be the first to help people or show your incredible talent. In the long run, you will profit from RED because of your talent and not the medium. If you are trying to profit from RED rather than your talent... well Karma will prevail.

No matter how painful, take your time Jim, let the pros find the flaws in professional testing (like Enzo Ferrari in racing) and when you are ready to sell us what shot a 100 million dollar film this July, we will be ready to buy all of your supply.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Could I ask the experts here an honest question in hopes of whatever they believe is a truthful answer?

How much should one really pay for a good tripod for the RED? David and I went to Birns & Sawyer two days ago, talked to a guy who claims to know Jim and sold him three cameras back in the day, and this guy was saying that to get anything even half-way decent, in his words, would cost us $8,000 and "really" we should buy this $12,000 tripod. Now maybe I'm showing my inexperience here, but in my book a tiny hunk of metal isn't worth $12,000 when you can go buy a brand new car for $12,000 that has 3,000 of materials that went into it, an engine, electrics, A/C, heat, a radio, CD player, etc. If you can get a car for $12,000, someone is really having fun making $12,000 on a freakin' tripod. It's quite possibly one of the world's simplest tools. I understand everything in this industry is ridiculously overpriced, and it's almost a badge of honor to brag about how much you spent (wasted) on equipment, I guess, but is that really necessary?

I mean is it really true that we cannot have a good, professional grade tripod for less than $8,000? I really thought that we could get something good for about $3,000, because of the low weight of the RED and whatnot, but if everyone else says that's impossible I guess we'll have to re-evaluate. I just personally cannot believe that. I would honestly be better off hiring a machinist and having it made myself rather than paying $12,000 for it. Now if it was holding a 150 pound 35mm film camera or something I might be able to understand that, but the RED and its attachments shouldn't weigh more than 20-25 pounds I don't think from looking at the specs.

[Greg Voevodsky]

JonathanLB,

Use your common sense and budget. I 'd go with the 3000 price and spend more money with RED lenses, jibs, steadycams than overspending on the Ferrari of tripods, when a Corvette at 1/3 the price has similar performance.

[Häakon]

For those trying to make a super profit by being first, like selling water after a hurricane... I'd say be happy to be the first to help people or show your incredible talent. In the long run, you will profit from RED because of your talent and not the medium. If you are trying to profit from RED rather than your talent... well Karma will prevail.
I haven't gotten that vibe from anyone; in particular, my point about releasing the cameras in the order that the reservation holders signed up wasn't about cashing in early but rather just getting those cameras into our hands so we can actually begin shooting with them. No one has to remind anyone that there are already 1,500+ people waiting. :-) If there are cameras out there going to "major motion pictures," then it's obvious that they are usable, even if all of the features aren't enabled yet. As early reservation holders, we were told our cameras wouldn't be fully enabled from the get-go anyway, so we were kind of expecting that already. Heck, Peter Jackson made an incredible movie with an "alpha" prototype - and that was over two months ago! So the point was not that anyone was upset about there being delays - we know that these things aren't in their control - but rather that we'd like to see the cameras dolled out in the order that people signed up for them, that's all. With all the perceived seriousness about "no reservations being transferable," you'd think the same would apply to the first cameras off the line - "beta" or not. As someone else posted, even if these cameras are intended to be replaced by "production level" cameras at some point, I guarantee you the first four people in line would be more than happy to be the "beta testers" in this situation. :-)

I also realize that it's great publicity for RED to get these cameras out to better-known directors and cinematographers for their own marketing advantages, there's no question about that. But RED's mantra up until this point has mostly been about being inclusive of everyone as possible (the low price point, being active on public forums, taking suggestions, etc.) and not just catering to the "major motion picture" guys. They're entitled to do whatever they want, but that doesn't mean that some decisions aren't going to ruffle some feathers.

I feel like we're beating a dead horse, so I'm done posting on this one... I just wanted to reply since your post talked about "karma prevailing" and "selling water after a hurricane," and I wanted to make certain that [at least my] intentions were coming across the right way. I hope that next Friday brings a little more clarity to the situation for all of us.

[David Mullen ASC]

As to why cars cost less than some tripods (and I'm not sure that's true):
http://economics.about.com/cs/economicsglossary/g/economies_of_s.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale

To answer your question, sure, you can get a cheaper, lighter-weight head and sticks for something like the RED camera, just below a certain point, you won't get as much stability when you operate a shot -- the head needs a certain mass to be able to smooth-out the motion of the camera. You don't necessarily need a head designed for 35mm motion picture work. Something built for a typical ENG camcorder would work.

You can also look into getting something used. For example, doing a Google search under "used sachtler head" yields things like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sachtler-7-7-Fluid-head-w-Ronford-2-stage-aluminum-trip_W0QQitemZ330131819159QQihZ014QQcategoryZ30095 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Tripod manufacturers generally rate their products by how much weight they are designed to handle, so just pick a head appropriate to the typical weight of the RED camera with its accessories.

I'm sure if you look around in the used market, you can find something in your budget range of $3000.

[SF Geek]

Hey Jonathan. I think you should look into O'Connor's 1030 series tripods. It'll still cost you around 6k but that's better than 13. You can't really compare a car to a porfessional tripod head. Everybody has a car. Not many people have pro level heads. That alone is going to affect the price greatly. Ask Curt from CVB about what makes tripods expensive. They are not as simple as they may seem. Also, try toning down your postings. You'll get better responses. Everything's not so black and white. Trust me, the people at arri and chrosziel and sachtler/oconnor aren't all rolling into work with Bentleys and laughing about how they are grossly overcharging their "stupid" customers.

[Alexander Nikishin]

For those trying to make a super profit by being first, like selling water after a hurricane... I'd say be happy to be the first to help people or show your incredible talent. In the long run, you will profit from RED because of your talent and not the medium. If you are trying to profit from RED rather than your talent... well Karma will prevail.

So that is to say that I can't profit financially and show my talent at the same time?

Shucks! :huh:

[Alexander Nikishin]

JonathanLB,

Use your common sense and budget. I 'd go with the 3000 price and spend more money with RED lenses, jibs, steadycams than overspending on the Ferrari of tripods, when a Corvette at 1/3 the price has similar performance.


Tripods are hardly over-priced. Now Steadicams, well.....

http://www.steadicam.com/images/content/Ultra2_pricesheet_40407.pdf

[john4321]

for me you are right, it's strange, but from the biz pov its clear. you need to wait, to pull in more buyers. but they track you down, once you sell your cam, and cancel your res. hmmmm


1) Will early reservations end up becoming a pointless investment in regards to those who reserved before NAB?

2) Upgrades? I already assumed the camera specs are as is displayed on the red.com website; does this mean otherwise?

3) I really dislike this early camera handout to big player with reputation and money. This is a smack in the face to the devoted believers and reservation holders. Despite any response I may get from this one, the fact is the reservation # should of had a meaning. To release it to big boys for testing purposes is still a slap to my reservation and time waiting effort.


I'm still a firm red believer and will keep my reservation, but not for long if news continues like this. I'm just very unsatisfied, venting, and would really like to know why the big players are getting access to it when I'm sure a majority of them we're in disbelief up until NAB reviews.

[Blair S. Paulsen]

There seems to be an assumption that opportunities to display one's talent are proportional to the amount of talent you have - not so much. With a little thought we could each name talented people that never get the big break, marginally talented people who have sweet deals, etc. What about highly talented creators who push the envelope a bit too far and end up with a mess? Are they less worthy of respect than a producer who plays it safe and cranks out formulaic tripe that scores financially?

Am I disappointed that my low rezzie didn't get me past the velvet ropes the way I might have fantasized? Of course, but that doesn't entitle me to anything. Jim is disappointed that he doesn't have a finished production camera to ship. Life is full of disappointments. You play the cards you're dealt.

Jim gets the hero worship around here because he "gets it". I feel incredibly lucky to be able to benefit from his vision. I'm not saying that to kiss up, its just the way it is.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I don't want to "cheap out" on a tripod, but also from talking to some other people they didn't seem to think it would be necessary to have like a $12,000 tripod.

Initially I would much prefer to buy something more within budget, if that costs $3,000 but it's a good tripod that will give me high quality movements and stability, then it's worth it. But I'd rather start with something like that for now than buy something that's three times as much before I even make a dime on the equipment. It would make more sense to me to make enough money first so that hopefully at some point if I don't care about spending $8,000+ on a tripod, I could do it, because of the money I made, but to throw myself too far into the hole initially seems like it wouldn't be too smart.

Do many professional DPs have really good tripods of their own? Like if you were to hire a professional DP for a shoot, and they really liked working with X tripod, any chance they'd actually have it? Or do they mostly rent, too?

Thanks for various recommendations. We'll definitely look into them. I was under the impression that with a tripod it's not just about how much weight it can hold, but also how smoothly it would be able to move. But maybe that's not correct. The first tripod I ever owned was about a $70 tripod ;) The next was a few hundred. Now the one we use is $600, which works just fine for an HDV cam, it's a nice tripod actually. It's just hard for me to imagine that something 2-3 times the weight can end up costing 10 times as much money, but I guess that is how it goes. If they don't sell very many tripods at that high end level, it makes more sense, but I still can't buy into what a lot of people in this industry seem to believe either from years of being here or just thinking "that's the way things are." I mean "the way things are" was a Sony F900 costing six times more than a RED even though the camera is six times less resolution and inferior in every respect to the RED. So when people tell me, "Well you know, they don't make that many tripods, so they cost an outrageous sum of money." It's just a lot harder to justify that kind of expense. When a computer of the same price would be able to do so much for your film and a tripod basically just is where the camera sits. You don't even need one. You could definitely (and people have, like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind for the most part) make a professional movie without it, and in 4K you could use Motion to stabilize shots later, it'd still be cheaper and easier than buying a $12,000 tripod. But I guess the reasoning in this industry is that since people rent so much, they can sell it to the rental houses, then they can rent it for $100 or $200 a day, whatever it is, and nobody complains too much because relative to a massive production it's not a big deal.

To me, though, being on the reasonable scale trying to make professional grade projects with a reasonable sum of money it seems very overpriced. It's easy to say not that many people need such a great tripod, but if you could offer a great tripod for $2,000 you'd find a lot more people WOULD buy it, the RED business model proves that. That's all I'm saying. You make something a self-fulfilling prophecy if you say, "Well only 1,000 people in the entire world really need something this good, so let's make it cost like $8,000 because otherwise we won't make enough money to make this worthwhile." Eventually I'm just hoping someone else comes along and says, "If we charged $2,000, our margins would be much smaller, but we think we can find 8,000 people who want this tripod at least." Until then I guess the industry is held hostage by car-priced tripods.

I'm a college graduate, my dad is one of the West Coast's biggest businessmen, I fully understand economics. You still can't convince me that there's any justification for a tripod costing $12,000. For me, there simply isn't. Now other people may feel perfectly justified in paying that if they make millions of dollars and that slight extra advantage, the extra 5% that you get out of something like that, really makes the difference to them. And hey if that's the case, awesome, wish I were making that much money in the industry. But I'm not convinced me buying an $8,000+ tripod instead of a $3,000 tripod is going to result in $5,000 or more in added revenue either directly or indirectly. *shrug*

[Costelloe Michael]

Could I ask the experts here an honest question in hopes of whatever they believe is a truthful answer?

I mean is it really true that we cannot have a good, professional grade tripod for less than $8,000? I really thought that we could get something good for about $3,000, because of the low weight of the RED and whatnot, but if everyone else says that's impossible I guess we'll have to re-evaluate.

Hey Jonathon,

I paid the equivalent of $14,000 for my O'Connor 2575c. I owned and used it for 4 years on a series of professional gigs and then sold it for $,9000. During that period, forgetting about asset depreciation and tax breaks, I charged it out for over $20,000 as part of my rate. Not a bad deal and reflective of it's worth. I never got into a situation where I couldn't use it on any camera due to payload from 35mm Panaflex to HD shooting on an Arri D20.

However, and for me more important than this, I got a piece of kit that enabled me to do my job with finesse. The quality of movement on this head is wonderful, the counterbalance system is second to none. I fell in love with the way it moved, the amount of friction it induced allowing you to stop dead on a frame at the end of a whip pan, completely different from the Sachtler and Ronford systems.

The question you should ask yourself is how much do you have to pay to get what you want. Try out some heads, I'm sure the rental houses won't mind you going in and trying their stock and find out what suits you. Then cut the best deal for what you need.

Mike C:ph34r:

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Hey Mike,

Well David and I discussed this, and if it's possible to make the money back that we'd spend buying it, then it's much easier to justify. I mean if everyone in the industry puts such a high value on these extremely expensive tripods, and their value doesn't plummet when they are used (sounds like you got a good amount back, too), then it makes a lot more sense financially. At that point you're not throwing away $14,000, you're just investing it in something that will pay off.

I guess what we need to see is whether we end up renting out the RED very much, because if we do and we get very professional DPs I would imagine they'll demand a high quality tripod, and if that's basically a deal-breaker, i.e. they can't rent from us if we don't offer all the camera equipment they need, then there's really no choice -- you can't be losing business because of one piece of equipment you don't have. So it's a matter of direction for us, though, if we are shooting our own stuff and find a much cheaper tripod that does a great job, great, we'll use it.

[David Mullen ASC]

Well, if anyone can figure out how to get a high-quality fluid head to market at low cost, it will be Jim -- the temptation to have a product called the REDHEAD may be great for him to ignore. :wink: Just imagine the marketing campaign...

[Costelloe Michael]

Jonathon,

Easy to do. Phone your local prefessional hire house and ask them how much it would cost to hire what you need to buy. Make your mind up from there. There's also the back up factor. I have links with facilities in the UK who would service my gear and / or provide a replacement if necessary. I know that Red is very competitively priced but you're still up against all the other companies who haven't adopted Red's marketing strategy.

Just think the lense set, at a very good price, is more than the camera! But it knocks the socks off buying an Ultra Prime or Digi Prime!

Mike C

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Yeah absolutely. I don't know why but I understand a lot more why lenses are expensive. I mean it's not hard to understand (for me) that if you didn't have great lenses, you don't have as good of shots, and since film is a visual medium... I realize that could apply to a tripod too, but lenses just make more sense to me as far as expense.

I'm slowly trying to figure out what our plan is in this industry, but the more I think about it the more I think it will make sense to be able to rent out my equipment. Let's say I film a feature, like this one I have in mind I think I can do in 3-4 weeks, seems crazy but it's all one location, 90 pages, no wardrobe changes, I think it's possible. Anyway regardless, say I film a feature, however long it takes, then there's going to be a much longer period in post-production where I will be actively involved (that's how I am with my work, would prefer to oversee it all even if I'm having other people do the work I like to be present and available for guidance). During that period if I can't be using my equipment anyway, wouldn't it make more sense to be able to rent it out at a reasonable cost to make some money while I'm otherwise occupied? Even if I am successful and have plenty of projects I can't imagine there wouldn't be open windows where to have that much equipment sitting around doing nothing would not be very smart. Unless I was just making so much I didn't care to have anyone else use my stuff, but that's not realistic for now or any time soon.

Also I thought more about it recently, when everyone says a highly professional shoot would want a backup camera available. At first I scoffed at that added price, but then I just realized... an extra RED camera body lying around is not expensive. I was thinking 2 x my entire RED package (lenses and all, $60,000 to $70,000), but actually I don't see why you'd need backup everything, if you had an extra RED body and maybe another charging kit, maybe a few more hard drives, you'd be able to offer those as extra on-set backups and not pass along that much extra cost. At least I wouldn't mind doing that. If I could charge $1,500 per day, 3 day rental weeks, with a loaded laptop on set for capturing, my camera package, a full assortment of lenses, EVF, LCD, maybe an HD reference monitor, plus backup camera body and batteries, etc. that wouldn't be half bad. It seems like that'd be a reasonable price, esp. if someone wanted to shoot 5 or 6 days and got all that for $4,500. Unless I'm crazy that seems like a great deal. But for me it would also be a fair amount of money...

Just a thought.

The REDHEAD, haha, I love that. That's just awesome.

[Keith Alan Morris]

I understand the feelings from the very early reservation holders. But lets look at this from reds point of view.

4 "major projects" could gain red another huge publicity/marketing hit with who knows maybe at least another 500 cameras ordered if the projects turn out positive for the red camera. The main advantage points for the red camera like 4k, price, dynamics etc will all shine through and make the camera even more known and talked about, which is likely to make it ever more sought after....

I just finished teaching marketing to filmmakers on the college level for 3 years. Marketing is all about one word: PERCEPTION. When you've got the faithful chomping at the bit, people that will never "leave or forsake you" just like in a marriage--don't you want to make them happy too? Then everyone wins.

One camera, one red user. Simple. Anything else... :waaa:

I'm sorry, but let's get real here.

[Costelloe Michael]

Realistically, you get an early res# up and running as a package and you can charge 5 day weeks! You wouldn't discount something that few people had and everyone wanted!

Hey Guys has anyone heard that Red cameras would be the ONLY cameras on these big budget movies? Or are they running alongside conventional and tested cameras.

Mike EC

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I would think they'd run alongside tested cameras, but I could be wrong. That's ballsy if not, hehe.

Well I'm not an early res number Mike, I ordered post-NAB 2007 so I'm sure the market will be more full than it will be at first, by the time I get mine. Still, I think the minimum I'd get for a package like that would be $4,500 per week, considering that's actually about $125,000 in equipment and I'm going to have to cover insurance on all of that equipment, too, which I'm guessing will not be cheap.

[Álex Montoya]

I guess in these big budget films, RED will be used for second units and FX shots.

And that the cameras will afterwards be taken away from them.

If so, everything's good. Studios will be convinced of the potential and when the first production units come out, their market value will be multiplied.

[Ramesh Jai]

#'s, Shnumbers.. let's forget 'boutit!

Has anyone used RED as a pickup line? (And succeeded?)

Think about it, 1 billion Chinese don't give a damn about RED. (I hope they don't otherwise we will have a RAD - Made in China soon)

[Darwin]

Wow..Just in general. How soon we forget where we started. Most remember that first RED site, with the funny cars? No picture of any camera at all, just a taste of what was to come. At that time alot of you here were asking if it was a joke. Then came the big guessing game before NAB! (How much?) most guessed 40-100k and up. I don't recall anyone saying $17500. Then The zoom another guessing game ensued. I got to say you all are some bad guessers myself and moderators inclued. It is easy for a early reservation holder to say I had faith all along! faith in what? your guessing?.....All reservation holders have faith the camera will be built. And Jim has rewarded that faith with a generous bonus! Jim has said there will be alot of testing of the camera. I dont recall Jim saying reservation holders only. I for one am happy it is being tested by the top dogs first. No one is getting leap froged here. The way I understand it, we all get are RED ONE cameras in reservation order. So whoever is doing the testing don't get there camera out of order anyways. The production one I mean. Even if Jim made all the cameras in one day and shiped the all out at the same time I would still be happy. Please Jim Take all the time needed.....serve no wine before it's time.

[fernando rocha]

The delay in the Red camera production is in fact a good thing,the feedback coming from those 4 film projects will be of enormous value to make the final Red camera right from the start.
So take your time.

[PaulClements]

Well, if anyone can figure out how to get a high-quality fluid head to market at low cost, it will be Jim -- the temptation to have a product called the REDHEAD may be great for him to ignore. :wink: Just imagine the marketing campaign...

Only problem is there is the lighting by the same name so it might infringe given they're both used in movie production, but it does sound good.

RedFluid maybe? nah that just sounds like some kind of grim bodily fluid!!! :)

[Ramesh Jai]

I too am all for big studios being used as Guinea Pigs for RED. We will all benefit from their experience.

So everyone at RED, take your time and hurry up.

[Curran Giddens]

I understand the point of view of early reservation holders, especially the top 100, but at this point I think we should be happy with just getting the damn camera and the already promised $2500. And if its specifications exceed our expectations, all the better.

I remember Jim saying the first 100 reservation holders also get a special gift. Or maybe that was the top 10.

[Darwin]

I remember Jim saying the first 100 reservation holders also get a special gift. Or maybe that was the top 10.

I think it was the top 334.... : )

[Clayton Harper]

I also realize that it's great publicity for RED to get these cameras out to better-known directors and cinematographers for their own marketing advantages, there's no question about that.

Have no doubts, 4 movies shooting RED increases the demand/value of your camera package by 10x. When you get it, it will be 100% legit with nothing to prove, and still supply constrained in the market place.

[Jesse Wendel]

I have a small bone to pick with the people whom are complaining about RED beta testing on live productions.

You are complaining about your assumptions, not about what RED actually promised.

No kidding, Jim and the RED Team are keeping faith. All the griping is petty.

RED never said they wouldn't run beta tests with whomever they damn well wanted. From the start all they've ever said is: "Specifications and delivery subject to change at any time."

All they've promised us is:


a) They'll do their best to deliver a camera Jim is proud of, when Jim is satisfied it is ready,

b) The specifications, delivery date and even the price may change at any moment (and sometimes it has!), and

c) If at any time we aren't satisfied, we may have our deposit back plus more, depending on our place in the queue.

That's it. So STOP WHINING. We're getting what we signed up for. Damn.


And oh yeah, Jim also promised us that he PERSONALLY guarantees we'll get our money back, no matter what, if at any point we ask for a refund, prior to camera delivery. His personal word. Beat that with a stick.

Now in addition to all that, RED has made every effort to stay open and communicate with us for over a year, throughout the entire development process. They've listened to our design requests and implemented many of them, no matter how weird they may have sounded sometimes -- *cracks up* -- with a speed and clarity and a deep understanding of design, which blows me away. The quality of the RED Team is frankly as good as any I've seen.

But nowhere did Jim or anyone at RED say, ever, that they wouldn't beta test or they wouldn't test market their cameras in a way which makes good technical sense for development and/or good business sense for RED. If you heard that, you made it up in your head. Really.

In this case, it seems to me RED's beta test is killing two birds with one stone, one technical, one marketing. I think it's a smart move. My opinion. *smiles* Regardless, putting four fairly incomplete named cameras at major shooting productions for test purposes is totally RED's call and all of you people complaining, please... stop whining. It makes you look small and petty.

Seriously, go write a script. Shoot a short movie. Get a new client. Play with your kids or ride a bicycle. Do something, but stop griping about your expectations. RED has kept its promises. Everything else is stuff -- all the stuff you're complaining about -- you made up in your head.

It's natural to be disappointed, especially when our expectations are let down for a bit and there isn't anything we can do to help. But taking out our upset on the people working around the clock to fix the problem, only makes things worse. Let's cut them and our colleagues on the Board some slack, okay?

One week to a shipping schedule if all goes well. *smiles*

Thanks much for your understanding,
Jesse Wendel

[Clayton Harper]

I think it was the top 334.... : )

Yeh, a 3 inch sticker and a post card. I appreciated it quite a bit actually. :usd:

[Costelloe Michael]

I would think they'd run alongside tested cameras, but I could be wrong. That's ballsy if not, hehe.

Well I'm not an early res number Mike, I ordered post-NAB 2007 so I'm sure the market will be more full than it will be at first, by the time I get mine. Still, I think the minimum I'd get for a package like that would be $4,500 per week, considering that's actually about $125,000 in equipment and I'm going to have to cover insurance on all of that equipment, too, which I'm guessing will not be cheap.

Hey Jonathon,

Insurance? Not for clients... No way. Either they have their own and they produce this for you on paper or you bill them for it. It's not included in the package price. Any production worth it's salt will have insurance on board.

Mike EC :ph34r:

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

I think we should be happy with this testing, and I can clearly see the reason why they would choose major motion pictures to test the camera.

I'm NOT saying that people here ain't professional, you guys know much more then I, and some of here ARE working in that high field (for example, David Mullen, Tom, ...) but these guys are like on the highest level.
They will know where to look at faults of the camera, better then anyone.
Their demands will be higher than anyone, because of the expactation, and money and talent involved...

The big boys are maybe a bit more demanding. Hence chosing them to test the camera.

[TimPipher]

Hello. I'm trying to figure out the posts saying that now there will be a shorter gap between the delivery of the camera to the early reservation holders and the later reservation holders.

What makes you think that?

[Michael Brennan]

Those clamouring to be Beta testers are probably Alpha males :)

Any Alpha females on the list?


Mike Brennan

[Michael Brennan]

They will know where to look at faults of the camera, better then anyone.
Their demands will be higher than anyone, because of the expactation, and money and talent involved...

The big boys are maybe a bit more demanding. Hence chosing them to test the camera.

I hope so, but this has not been the case with the introduction of f900, Panavised f900, D20 and Genesis.
Vested interest in film, ignorance, more ignorance, egos, bigger egos and overall lack of electronic experience of feature crews and production did more harm than good in the communication of the worth of these products.

Let the pictures do the talking.

Mike Brennan

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Hey Jonathon,

Insurance? Not for clients... No way. Either they have their own and they produce this for you on paper or you bill them for it. It's not included in the package price. Any production worth it's salt will have insurance on board.

Mike EC :ph34r:

Really? Good to know. But how can I make sure my stuff is generally insured so that if I use it on my own projects any problems would be covered by insurance? Would that be the same as having it insured on anyone else's shoots, or is that different? I haven't yet looked into this to be honest, but I should be doing that soon I realize. I just am not sure how that type of insurance works. I have home owner's insurance for the value of my collection and other contents of the condo, but that's about my knowledge of insurance (that and car insurance).

[Chris Gearhart]

I'm sure the two days with Peter Jackson and his crew was of surpassing value for the Red team. I can see why Jim would want to take this extra time they have waiting for bonehead suppliers and run it through additional quality crews in real production settings.

Just think of how the Viper got tweaked over the first productions--and it wasn't a "beta". Granted, digital acquisition was still fairly untried, but imagine this same scenario but with the modular, pre-production Red with Jim's development model operative. Plus with four crews, you're not limited to the quirks of just one DP/op/director.

I can't wait to see what the end results will be. Even the value of these tests for the re-design of accessories (as Red is wont to do) will be a great benefit--and I won't have to lock in on an "early" version. Cool.

[Chris Gearhart]

But this has not been the case with the introduction of f900, Panavised f900, D20 and Genesis.
Vested interest in film, ignorance, more ignorance, egos, bigger egos and overall lack of electronic experience of feature crews and production did more harm than good in the communication of the worth of these products.

Let the pictures do the talking.

Mike Brennan

Yeah, but you can't deny the value of having it run through an actual production environment with experienced operators and DP, who I am sure are more digital-savy than those who worked earlier with those cameras.

What is different here is: we're farther down the digital road; Jim is getting to decide where the cameras go; Jim's production M.O.; and having Red techs on set taking notes and helping out.

I'm very optimistic.

[Jay A. Kelley]

From Jim's post I have to assume the board problems have been solved.. This is good news. As for the rest, well we're looking at 6 days until the schedule.. I am fine with that, I am also VERY happy to hear they are releasing cameras to "beta testers" already.. This serves a lot of good both from a development and marketing standpoint.

Over all, I'm very happy.. I would have liked a schedule, but a one week delay in getting it is nothing that concerns me.

I just got a "kitchen sink" backpack for Father's day and I'm telling you guys, if the camera is 1/2 as tough as this backpack, our GRANDCHILDREN will be using the damn thing.

Jay

[Chris Gearhart]

if the camera is 1/2 as tough as this backpack, our GRANDCHILDREN will be using the damn thing.

Jay

Wow. How old are your grandchildren? I wouldn't let someone touch my Red who is under 10 no matter how tough it was. :whistling:

{heh heh. j/k. I get it.}

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

I just talked to an AIM bot about the RED, she didn't seem very impressed but I tried to turn her onto the product. Here's how it went:

7:26 Jonathan: Do you like the RED One?
7:27 Spleak: I don't really know how I feel about the RED. Do you like the RED?
7:27 Jonathan: Yeah the RED is awesome.
7:27 Spleak: Interesting. That's cool... No one else has ever told me what they think of the RED.
7:27 Jonathan: Well you're really missing out then.
7:27 Spleak: OK, maybe I am really missing out then.
7:28 Jonathan: You need to go get one on pre-order
7:28 Spleak: Okay, we all know by now that I NEVER leave my computer... so I really can't go anywhere...
7:28 Jonathan: I didn't suggest going anywhere, they have an Internet site you can order from.

Hey, I tried. Not everyone gets the revolution.

[HD Hildebrand]

I don't understand all the complaining about the 4 major films being beta testers. Personally, I'd rather someone else work out the bugs on their feature then on my own, and if the beta tests are successful on these larger productions, they've just increased the demand for my (your) soon to come Red.

Sure it's disapointing to push back my productions, but with straightforward timeline "targets" that Jim is updating us with - well, it allows one to at least roll with the punches and adjust accordingly.

[Steve Sherrick]

Jim is doing exactly what I had asked for when I first got involved in all of this. Test the camera in real production situations. I wanted the best DPs trying it out, working through the bugs, revealing any flaws in the design. If that was someone like Gibby or other reservation holders, that would be fine with me. But clearly there is an opportunity that Jim has come across to get these cameras into the hands of some high profile projects and use those as real world testing ground and a nice marketing angle as well.

Does this affect early res holders? Very much so. It means you will get a camera that is production ready and will only get better with firmware updates. The fact that there are a few cameras (prototypes by the way) out there is doing nothing to take any advantage away from you. In fact, when the articles start to flood the industry about the camera being used on these productions, your res # will have even more value. If Jim was to let every major studio and rental facility cut in line and buy production cameras, then we would all have a reason to be very upset. That would be unethical, and I can't see Jim taking that approach. It would be bad business and he doesn't seem the type to do bad business.

Let's not forget that Jim has given us a nice gift for being early - cash towards the accessories. Quite honestly, he didn't have to be as generous as he is being. He could have said - for the $1000 you put down, I'll give you a $1000 towards the accessories. Instead, he more than doubled that. So, that's one of the big advantages for getting in early as well.

I've seen too many other products be too good to be true and disappear. I've even heard people say this camera would never happen. NAB gave me the comfort level to sit back and say things are going to be fine, the proof was on the screen. If it takes a bit more time (and believe me I'd love to have one now) then I'm okay with it. I still stand by my statement to Jim in a previous post that at some point the camera has to be released, even if it's not 100% to his high standards, but I think we're still within the window of opportunity here. I will only be concerned if the camera is not delivered by NAB 2008, but I think it will and we'll find that out next week.

Until then...let's give these guys the benefit of the doubt. If you take a moment to sit back and really absorb what it is they are trying to do, with an incredibly small team of people, in an incredibly small window of time, it does quite boggle the mind. Makes you wonder if they've got a team of elves hidden away in some bunker working overtime on this.

Thanks for the update Jim!

Steve

[mezmo]

Hi Guys,
I'm not a Red resevation holder, so I don't have much commited here
but to me the testing of RED & Red code with somthing like Scratch & FCP/COLOR seems to be much more beneficial to potential Red users/Res holders and a much more exciting prospect all round.
It's great having Michael Mann & Dion play with the thing on their next
blockbuster but isn't this the camera for the people? The revolution?
The four Major Players will have Big post budgets as well. The Red footage should look great and give major creds to the camera but most of us will use this box for low budget indie work with limited post possibilities..
I think it's really important that this camera be "Beta Tested" the way
most customers are going to use it.
Come on Jim, punch out another two and hand em over to some "Indie"
reservation holders for testing.
Yours Mezmo

[Adrian Correia]

From Jim's post I have to assume the board problems have been solved.

Jay

Can we get confirmation on this? The board was the issue that was causing me concern. If that problem is solved then I would be very relieved!

[Matt Setnes]

I really do like how one can post here but get slammed by someone else. This is why I do not post.

Anyways, Tom. I was speaking for all reservation holders. I would like to see anyone from 1 to 10 to get a chance at these. But like someone said : the number means nothing. It's the concept of reservation.

Understandable this camera needs to be tested on major films, but why wasn't this stated a while back? Everyone seems to be agreeing with me on it that it really throws the believer (res. holder) to the side letting someone with cool clothes cut the line. What this makes me believe of the company right now, is that if they are capable of "cuts", then what's stopping them from letting a well known DP or director that is willing to pay 3 times the cost just to get an early camera?

To sum it up, business wise - this loses company trust with it's true supporters. Makes me start thinking that even though I still have and want my reservation, I should start earning on this investment I made until arrival. Only thing I have gotten out of all this was specs I never doubted, so in perspective, nothing.

Jim you are a great mind and successor, for that I respect you for. As a company I'm beginning not to.

Seriously though, I feel like I asked someone to the prom but wasn't due an answer till yesterday and only to find out she's going with a cooler guy. ) :

[Steve Sherrick]

I really do like how one can post here but get slammed by someone else. This is why I do not post.

Anyways, Tom. I was speaking for all reservation holders. I would like to see anyone from 1 to 10 to get a chance at these. But like someone said : the number means nothing. It's the concept of reservation.

Understandable this camera needs to be tested on major films, but why wasn't this stated a while back? Everyone seems to be agreeing with me on it that it really throws the believer (res. holder) to the side letting someone with cool clothes cut the line. What this makes me believe of the company right now, is that if they are capable of "cuts", then what's stopping them from letting a well known DP or director that is willing to pay 3 times the cost just to get an early camera?

To sum it up, business wise - this loses company trust with it's true supporters. Makes me start thinking that even though I still have and want my reservation, I should start earning on this investment I made until arrival. Only thing I have gotten out of all this was specs I never doubted, so in perspective, nothing.

Jim you are a great mind and successor, for that I respect you for. As a company I'm beginning not to.

Seriously though, I feel like I asked someone to the prom but wasn't due an answer till yesterday and only to find out she's going with a cooler guy. ) :

It was mentioned very early on that it would be tested in the field with whoever they chose to test it with. I believe if you do a search you will find those threads.

No one is cutting in line as far as we know. Jim can have anyone he wants beta test the prototypes. Production cameras, that's a different story.

Why do you feel you are entitled to interest on this investment. Jim never claimed that he would do that. Funny thing is, he's doing it anyway. You get back more than you gave. Seems like a pretty nice thing to do, since he never promised that from the beginning. The $1000 was simply a deposit, fully refundable. Now, it's a bit like an investment. Give Jim a break here man.

Hang in there. Jim isn't looking to screw anybody. He's trying to position the company so that we all benefit.

Steve

[liquidigital]

I read these posts and I really just don't understand what everyone expects. No one keeps their customers so well informed, and anyone familiar with camera technologies knows these delays are not uncommon.

To be honest I think Jim opened up Pandora's box allowing himself to be so personal with the buyers. You don't see the head of Mamiya conversing with people on a forum, and the 645d had major,major delays.

From my perspective (I'm not a reservation holder BTW) I'd want the camera I receive to be extensively tested before I received it, and this opportunity has presented itself. (Personally I always buy 2nd gen everything now.)

All the best guys.

[Steven Caesare]

Does anybody think a 5-star chef doesn't let some well-respected palates test his dinner menu before the first person with a reservation gets a table on opening night?

Does anybody think that Microsoft doesn't let companies like HP and Boeing test the beta code of their latest OS or SQL server before the final production code goes to those licensees on maintenance who have in essence already paid for it?

Can anybody who feels like they are getting sand kicked in their face provide a post from Jim that says they would be getting something other than a production camera according to their reservation?

They aren't in production. Therefore you aren't getting screwed out of anything.

And those who spun Jim's comments to imply he was looking for marketing value, as opposed to technical/production feedback, from the beta test sites ought to go back and carefully read his initial post on this thread, and then consider issuing a retraction.

My "ugh" has to do with the reaction of some of you folks here.

[Antoine Fabi]

There are 4 major projects that will receive RED Beta prototypes. None will have audio and all will only record 4K REDCODE RAW.

Jim

Ah... I understand a lot better now. (in a positive way).

thanks

[Finner]

If Jim was to let every major studio and rental facility cut in line and buy production cameras, then we would all have a reason to be very upset.


I think for most of the people who are concerned (not whiners or babies like some people have said) but concerned experienced proffesionals the above statement is the issue. The flood gates have been slightly cracked allowing others in front and no one other then a high ranked RED employee can say for sure that this will not happen more. Like I mentioned before if the beta testers were going out to a test shoot a not profit aimed short movie hey no problem. Don't go glorifing some big producer though and think they deserve a camera before any other reservation holding industry proffesional as small as their company may be. There is no difference between the two other then one makes more money. The people who signed up first deserve the first cameras and its not like big budget camera crews could do any better job then Gibby. In fact with all his years of experience and red specific research and time Gibby has put in I see not many others being able to beta test the camera much better then him.

I am not a whiner and do not expect my camera any sooner then the number I have (it is a big number so it is not like I was ahead of a bunch of people anyway.). It just looks like now we have no idea if more cameras above the 4 movies could be named and sent out making the whole reservation list meaning less. I hope this is not the case and truely Jim has been upfront and open throughout. I do not expect this to happen but I think many can see where it would be a concern. Also I just have trouble seeing what kind of different feedback could come on a limited features enabled camera from 4 movies that could not come from 1 or 2.

[Rob Lohman]

Beta testing is not the same as selling camera's or having people cut in line. There are always beta / test / prototype camera's (just like we used to shoot Crossing the Line). Jim has the first few camera's anyway with which he can do as he pleases.

I assume everyone prefers a tested product over a non-tested one?

[planet e]

if jim had just beta-tested a prototype camera with a few productions and then announced it after the fact, just as it ALREADY happened with the peter jackson short, it would be all oohs and aaahs here. and people begging for scraps of footage. instead, he gives us another heads up about his intentions, and it's all a big outcry about line crashing and undermining the spirit of the Revolution. it's quite mystifying, really. all this bluster about our Big Investments. if you think a thousand bucks or a coupla thousand bucks with a more-than-money back guarantee and a $2500 price break is a big investment, then you're in the wrong line of business. truly.

what amazes me is that he can push on with such continued generosity and humble expressions of ongoing gratitude and appreciation towards everyone in the face of the impoverished spirit of such egoic nonsense.

thanks for your efforts, jim and company. i'm looking forward to working with one of the finest cameras ever developed in the history of moving images.

[Matt Setnes]

scaesare: I realize this. Just a little aggravated how not one single holder of the early reservations will get any of these cams.

Respectively, Jim should be expecting this kind of talk.


Could we at least give these test cameras to people who are NOT our competition in this industry?

[RED-Tank]

Jim even mentioned in the last update that the delays would likely only affect the earlier serial numbers, so it's a lot easier for someone with a serial of, say, 400, to be less concerned with the news.


Thank you Häakon, this is exactly what I am thinking, I can go back to sleep now (i mean wake up early and work harder tomorrow to save the money).

Thank you Jim for the update and if there is any "ugh" found, it just makes this project more interesting to hold on with.. haa !

[Steven Caesare]

scaesare: I realize this. Just a little aggravated how not one single holder of the early reservations will get any of these cams.

Respectively, Jim should be expecting this kind of talk.


Could we at least give these test cameras to people who are NOT our competition in this industry?

Why?

What agreement do you have with Red that is not being met? What assurances have you been given (as opposed to what you may wish for) that are not being honored (and then some)?

This sense of entitlement baffles me.

[Tom Lowe]

You know I really have to laugh and shake my head at people who are continuing to cry and moan that the camera is actually being tested before being manufactured and shipped! Un-freekin-believable...

[Tom Lowe]

Well, if anyone can figure out how to get a high-quality fluid head to market at low cost, it will be Jim -- the temptation to have a product called the REDHEAD may be great for him to ignore. :wink: Just imagine the marketing campaign...

Ha Ha Ha. :)

[Adrian Correia]

You hear that Jim? Get to work. I expect renders of the REDHEAD by Monday at 8:00 a.m. No sleep for you!

[JD Holloway]

REDBOX could be made available to those over 18 in 48 states...

[CJ Roy]

I'm disappointed by the news, or lack there of. I waited 3 weeks to hear virtually nothing in regards to my order. However, I'm not dropping my order. I've waited since NAB '06 and it would be foolish to pull out now because it does have potential to be a great camera.

However, in regards to the productions that are receiving Red cameras, I have a couple of questions and concerns.

1. What is the length of the shoot for these "higher budget" productions? If they are high budget, they'd be anywhere from roughly 30-90 day shoots.

2. Will the productions give feedback as they go, or will you wait till end of principle photography to accumulate all the feedback then make changes to the camera?

3. What kind of changes is Red willing/expecting to make? Hardware or software? Obviously software would be easier to implement, thus cutting down on delay time. Hardware would require re-engineering designs and extend any expected delay.

Any info is appreciated. Thanks.

-CJ Roy

[Mardi_Gras]

Why?

What agreement do you have with Red that is not being met? What assurances have you been given (as opposed to what you may wish for) that are not being honored (and then some)?

This sense of entitlement baffles me.

I have to agree with you. There really is no reason for anyone to whine and moan about being stuffed by Jim/Red team. This is how I see it; the man is willing to refund your full deposit with interest, should you not have the stomach for the delays. Secondly, this is the first time I'm able to participate in the development of such a piece of tech from the perspective of a potential customer... its just not done anywhere else. Do your research. Beta testers are just that... beta testers and not customers. The manufacturer SHOULD reserve the right to assign their beta products for testing without being chastized.

Let's all take a deep breath and chill...

[Damien Molineaux]

I'd love to have a Beta camera to test.

I'm producing a 200 grand doc this summer. You know what ? I can't afford to use a beta camera.

When I get my Red I want it to be reliable (not Safari for Windows). I need it to be reliable, to be able to rent it out, and be confident it'll work as announced (although s..t happens, I know).

To all early reservation models, don't get confued between beta cameras and early production models, please. Production cameras are not supposed to be beta cameras. You want to be a beta tester, contact red personnaly, show them you have the experience required (to be useful to them) and the right project.

I'm bummed out to have to wait. I would love to test a red and yes I'm jealous of those who are, but I can't afford for my red to be a beta camera.

Cheers,
Damien

PS I do however agree it would be nice to see some early adopters, who can afford to be beta testers, given a chance to do so.

[Andrew Benz]

Wow, how times change. There is a HUGE lack of mutual respect on this forum... I am tired of it... no SICK of it!. We, as a group are composed of individuals of every geographic, socio-economic, religious, academic, vocational (military) backgrounds. We are tied together by this unquenching desire to communicate via images/sound, no matter their origination (film/digital) or their distro channel. We all have alot to learn from one another. So why all the unbridled attacks on people who think differently from yourself (the collective YOURSELF). There are valid seeds of truth to each and every side of this debate, the bashing does nothing but create ill will and if you have not noticed "REDUSERS" are collectively seen as... well. my point is let's not fuel the flames and the flaming of users--(especially from snipers with 1 or 2 posts... I do not get it... ego?...stirring the pot?)

If we keep attacking one another over insipid points then we are no better than the worst jackasses from the other forums.

I look forward to six months from now when we as Professionals can discuss craft directly related to RED.

Now, I love to get the insight from those that are very different than me, that have knowledge diff. from my own. But, why would they post when someone is going to rip them a new asshole for not being perfect---this is a place to learn and exchange ideas.... hence the word forum. This post is not being made from a high horse, I say this because for the most part I care about the people here and on the RED Team.

-- have a great weekend all,

Andrew

[Craig Schober]

When I get my Red I want it to be reliable (not Safari for Windows).

this might be the first offical tangent thread from this posting but you are describing exactly what the new safari for windows and mac currently is...a beta.

i hope i'll have more than just a tangent thread next friday.

[Mike the beginner]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike the beginner
I understand the feelings from the very early reservation holders. But lets look at this from reds point of view.

4 "major projects" could gain red another huge publicity/marketing hit with who knows maybe at least another 500 cameras ordered if the projects turn out positive for the red camera. The main advantage points for the red camera like 4k, price, dynamics etc will all shine through and make the camera even more known and talked about, which is likely to make it ever more sought after.... quote



I just finished teaching marketing to filmmakers on the college level for 3 years. Marketing is all about one word: PERCEPTION. When you've got the faithful chomping at the bit, people that will never "leave or forsake you" just like in a marriage--don't you want to make them happy too? Then everyone wins.

One camera, one red user. Simple. Anything else... :waaa:

I'm sorry, but let's get real here.

Sorry i disagree with you. I think Jim Jannard is one brilliant marketing man full stop. You are entitled to your opinion i am fine with that. Do you really think the vast majority of reservation holders are now un happy because 4 large projects are being done with red prototypes? Sure there will be some who might be a bit miffed but how many?? very few on a percentage basis. You ask me to get real????? Exactly what part is un real??

Jim Jannard has the first five cameras anyway (or was it four) so either way he can give his cameras to anyone. The red one will be a better camera due to the delay, that will make a lot of happy reservation holders. At $17,500 i cannot believe that anyone will be unhappy when the camera finally ships.

I happen to agree with the path he has taken right from the beginning and up until now. My only gripe as a beginner is the damn high price of all the other pro gear elsewhere. The more units red sells the better. Perhaps in the not too distamt future, demand for other pro gear will start to increase until it becomes worthwhile for others to step in and discount some of the pro gear prices to a level of price that equates to red pricing.

Mike the beginner

[Finner]

By the way Jim and team I'm not sure if you guys are even reading this anymore or if you all threw in the towel on this thread long ago but thanks for the openess. I feel bad that you have run into so many obstacles on the home stretch. It is clear you guys are working your asses off to get things completed and I for one appreciate it. Heck clearly you are taking steps to try and make this the best camera you possibly can and who is anyone to judge you on that. My posts were not meant to be all doom and gloom as that was not the intent. I guess I was just suprised as I had just thought the early testers would be the first in line.

So thanks for the hard work and I look very forward to the future of the camera and the company.

cheers,
Daren

[Jesse Wendel]

I too am simply stunned by people complaining how Jim and RED should do this, that or the other thing.

I spent almost ten years as a street and flight paramedic. You'd think I'd be used to people failing to say thank you or have any real appreciation for the competency and professionalism of a Team working hard right in front of them.


What is that old joke...

"Lord, save my son from drowning.
Please Lord, oh please, save him, save him.
Please, please Lord, save my dear, darling son..."
At which point the boy suddenly washes up onto the beach.
The mother runs over to the boy and throws her arms around him.
He looks up at her and breathes, "Mother."
The mother looks down at her son. He's alive!
She looks at him again. Looks at him carefully.
Then she looks up at the heavens...
"He had a hat..."

Jim is too professional to expect gratitude. And he certainly isn't doing this for people's praise. But at least, have the common courtesy to not insult the man's integrity on his own board, okay?

If you don't like how things are being done, ask for a refund. Otherwise, chill.

[cckid]

Jim hi,

an additional month or two of waiting for a something that weve been already waiting for decades wouldn't change anything at all...right? it just makes the excitement that much bigger...my last thought would be: make it work...make it work, really good

www.staderzen.com

www.honeymoonthemovie.net

[Jannard]

We don't deserve anything until we begin shipping. At that point, all we want... is happy customers.

Jim

[Jay A. Kelley]

I find most of this thread pretty funny. It shows how much reality we've lost touch with.

If our boy Jim has created a camera that film makers on MULTI-MILLION dollar movies are going to use to shoot their flicks instead of 35mm, Genesis, or Vipers, etc. And he's still planning on selling this thing for $17,500, then this project is going to be as big or bigger than many of us have dreamed.

I need Jim's company to be successful and strong. Getting the REDs in the hands of people that the media like to talk about is not only smart, it's responsible.

This is all going better than could be expected. I'm very excited.

Here's something else, a little gift Jim is giving those of us that got in early: By getting the cameras into beta with "big names" he will show people the camera can work on any type of project, AND that it's accepted in the industry! The buzz will be incredible.. And of course, so will demand!! Those of us in the early numbers (500 and below for sure, perhaps higher) should be able to make back our ENTIRE investment or much better in a matter of months.

With that in mind.. If you are an owner operator, and you plan to rent out, be sure to get a "full package". People will ask for it.

Jay

[Steven M. Bailey]

I understand the frustration of many as to the rental market situation. Sometimes things work out. Often times they don't.

As far as the testers not being Rez holders, I don't remember that ever being said specifically. I remember in a previous post Jim inviting David Mullen to come by anytime and take it for a spin.

Jim is smart and seems to have a good grasp on drama. He Knows that in a film, if you let out too much information too early, you spoil the ending and the audience looses interest. If you don't let out any information than the audience looses interest on the basis of boredom.

If you let out just enough information to allow an attachment if the imagination, then everyone will hang on, stirred up, if for no other reason than to see what will happen next. He's got most of us hook, line, and sinker. I don't mind. Like any good movie, I don't mind being taken for a joyride as long as it ends well.

Either I get a Kick ass camera, or I get my money back +. Whats not to like? The other fringe benefits, rentals, notoriety, status, etc..etc may or may not be there.

I haven't met Jim but I think I can see him sitting at his computer, Cheshire-cat grin on his face, posting only tid-bits to defuse only the most volatile of posts having gone astray from his greater scheme of things.

Not knowing that scheme we only see in part, the future he has planned for us, and in our imaginations we weave our own stories from his cryptic posts.

We have never had any more to stand on than the word of Jim. We can either continue on this ride and trust him to fruition, or not. It really is that simple.

I'm not tied to a current shooting schedule and that makes this easy for me to say, for those of you that are. Good luck and may Friday bring you a bigger piece of the mystery that is RED.

I don't think any of us are getting screwed, I think we have already gotten much more than we deserve.

[danielg]

The fact that there is a delay is not a shock. Trying to roll out a piece of major kit like this hard. I'm a EE, and the project I'm working on now has gone through several design revisions. It happens.

We're lucky to have the straight dope here. Some companies see telling the truth as a risky, and would rather 'spin' it. Risk amelioration, and all that. They seem to forget that sellers and buyers need to have bonds of trust, in addition to whatever geld changes hands.

Keep up the work, Red Heads.


=Dan

[Gbabymogul]

I'm disappointed by the news, or lack there of. I waited 3 weeks to hear virtually nothing in regards to my order. However, I'm not dropping my order. I've waited since NAB '06 and it would be foolish to pull out now because it does have potential to be a great camera.Actually it's closer to 5, but who's counting? ;) What can you do? Suppliers have their own prognostications. I would have preferred a simple, "no update till Friday", instead of refreshing for a whole day, haha.


However, in regards to the productions that are receiving Red cameras, I have a couple of questions and concerns.

2. Will the productions give feedback as they go, or will you wait till end of principle photography to accumulate all the feedback then make changes to the camera?Answer: No. Productions don't give out that kind of in depth technical access you're asking, IMO. That's the trade off for RED, have a highly professional crew test the camera and workflow (enriching us all eventually) but without substantive posts or info. One can guess that the tradeoff is amicable for RED because they don't necessarily want lots of test footage floating around with prototype cameras (the lack of PJ's short being aired probably follows this strategy too). Whether it be accurate or not, i think they felt the "prototype" rubric wasn't being heard whenever footage was released, so they are keeping a close reign on any footage (even spectacular footage by PJ, by all accounts). Again, this is a tradeoff because you keep the initial marketing high, but when the cameras hit the streets you'll lose all advantage of controlling the cameras reputation.


3. What kind of changes is Red willing/expecting to make? Hardware or software? Obviously software would be easier to implement, thus cutting down on delay time. Hardware would require re-engineering designs and extend any expected delay.
As previously stated, the updates will be software. Unless the boards problems haven't been solved.

I must say this thread has been bananas.

First off, i reserved early, so i can understand some of the questions that some people have been airing. I don't think it does service to call people names for them (on either side). A misapprehension, while unfounded, may still have some merit for the individual. That said, IMO,

1. Reservation numbers were for a place in the line. That's it. No magic ticket to Hollywood, no interest rate bearing bond, no seat on the board of directors. It was to guarantee that when they make camera numero ... that you will receive it. If you were planning on leveraging scarcity then it was a misapprehension.

2.As Rob stated these aren't production units. No one at no time has the right to tell the founder of a company how to use the cameras that belong to him. If he wanted to sell them for a million a piece or film his grandkids barbie doll party; it's his business. The fact that he's beta testing them at large productions benefits you. That R you have is a promise that you are important and your camera is and will be one of a kind.

3. What is more important, IMO, than who's testing the beta cameras (i wish Mr.Mullen was though) is that the board problem is solved and suppliers are reliable. If i were to voice concerns it would be that RED may be overly sensitive to releasing footage, but as a dude who has been an early reserve and been on the RED revolution from day zero, all i was guaranteed was a place in line, and a forum to interact with all my fellow geeks...

Long post. Bananas.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

This thread did go bananas... Wow.

I already said my piece a few pages back and it's the same message voiced by others here. The RED team is beta testing the camera to benefit us all. They will place cameras where they think it will provide the best real-world test results. These are not production cameras. No one is cutting in line at this point.

I also have to second what Finner and a few others have said. Jim and the guys at RED have been great and we appreciate all the open dialogue. So let's not screw it up.

[Häakon]

We don't deserve anything until we begin shipping.
Thanks for reminding everyone of that. I think that amongst the hoopla of what the camera may offer, it's easy to forget.

I predict you will have very happy customers upon release. Can't wait to hear the updates next week.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Ok I just skipped 10 pages so I hope I didn't miss something important but let me put forth a question to everyone who is dissapointed about the diminished lead time of the first few reservation holders.

There are two things RED can do. 1) Give the lower res holders the beta cameras. 2) Give big budget active productions the beta cameras.

Let's say they give you the beta cameras and you offer your services to the film projects.

Day 5: If the RED has been in 70% humidity for 3 days the chroma shifts by 20%. Now what? Who is responsible for the camera? Who is to blaim? How do you correct it?

Who here wants to be the fall guy for a production stopping for a day because your piece of equipment is failing? Who here is ready to personally stand behind a completely unknown piece of technology that's still in beta?

If these cameras were ready to be generally fielded... they would be retail cameras. I'm sure the only way RED even convinced these films to field test a prototype was by offering something a retail camera doesn't come with: The full backing of the manufacturer and its engineering team. If they're shooting and that same chroma shift happens there will probably be a RED engineer who is intimately familiar with the actual workings of the camera's DSPs and can either fix it or find a work around.

There is a lot more to field testing a piece of beta hardware than knowing how to plug in a firewire drive, backup to LTO and import into Avid.

[chuck colburn]

Right on Gavin.

Humidity,high and low temps, etc. all wreak havoc upon electronics. Hell, humidity is the bane of film cameras. Ever seen stiction in the gate? Or film that's sweating? Of course one would have to be crazy to shoot let alone live where the humidity is 70% for three days. I mean come on where in the world does it rain that much?

Chuck

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Portland, Oregon. It rains all of the time. ;)

[Nik Manning]

Hey Jonathan. I think you should look into O'Connor's 1030 series tripods. It'll still cost you around 6k but that's better than 13. You can't really compare a car to a porfessional tripod head. Everybody has a car. Not many people have pro level heads. That alone is going to affect the price greatly. Ask Curt from CVB about what makes tripods expensive. They are not as simple as they may seem. Also, try toning down your postings. You'll get better responses. Everything's not so black and white. Trust me, the people at arri and chrosziel and sachtler/oconnor aren't all rolling into work with Bentleys and laughing about how they are grossly overcharging their "stupid" customers.

If the tripods were 3k maybe everyone would have one? 13k for a tripod! That is Madness! I went to birns and sawyers and I never saw that tripod. Maybe they keep the $100 tripods in a different place than the 13k tripods. :) Anyway I support the RedPod idea 100%. Maybe 3 different ones from 1k,3k,5k. That would be some great pricing.

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Well the Birns & Sawyer guy told me in no uncertain terms that NOTHING would work for the RED except at least an $8,000 tripod. I have seen much, much cheaper tripods that would hold the weight no problems, but apparently if you don't buy a 35mm tripod you're just an amateur and don't deserve to own the RED. That's what I was told, anyway. ;)

[Nik Manning]

Well the Birns & Sawyer guy told me in no uncertain terms that NOTHING would work for the RED except at least an $8,000 tripod. I have seen much, much cheaper tripods that would hold the weight no problems, but apparently if you don't buy a 35mm tripod you're just an amateur and don't deserve to own the RED. That's what I was told, anyway. ;)

Hopefully RED will change this for us buddy. The guy that shot Napoleon Dynamite was more of an amateur also and he did okay. :)

[chuck colburn]

Portland, Oregon. It rains all of the time. ;)

Portland?
I thought that was in Maine. Oh well must be in some other part of the state.

[donatello b]

head & sticks - just depends on how you have the camera built & what YOU prefer ...
a sachtler 7+7 will work on any build any weight ...
a sachtler video 20 would work for some builds - many operators might feel video 20 is too light a head ...

for 16mm & 35mm ( arri II/III) i prefer the video 18 if i'm out in the woods and i have to carry it .. if somebody else is carrying it then i prefer the 7+7 ...

a RED with a cooke 18-100 , production matt box , follow focus etc would sit & operate better on the 7+7 .... i'd have to test it on a smaller head ?

[goldyprog]

I have never been so excited for a camera. Though the Nikon D2Xs is pretty sweet, too :)

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Portland?
I thought that was in Maine. Oh well must be in some other part of the state.

Haha, are you kidding me? Oregon has some of the worst weather in the nation, in my opinion. I say that not because it has HARSH weather, overall Oregon has moderate weather, never very hot, never very cold, doesn't snow much (except up at the mountains), etc. But Oregonians have the LOWEST level of Vitamin D in the nation because we hardly get any sunlight. That's especially true in Portland, where it's cloudy almost constantly. Other parts of Oregon are nicer, like Eastern Oregon obviously, I see you're from Ashland, but in Portland the weather is intolerable. I lived there for my entire life, finally got out, and I'm much happier that when I wake up every day I see sun!

[chuck colburn]

ahhh....
Guess I'm busted.
Yeah I was kidding.

[Gavin Greenwalt]

That's the first time I've ever heard the words "eastern oregon" and "nicer" put into the same sentence.

[Learvis Templeton jr.]

Had to get a post in on this thread to cover my once a month posting!

[Joe Aurili]

I happen to be there right now and it is not raining, though it looks like it might any time :)


Portland, Oregon. It rains all of the time. ;)

[chuck colburn]

I happen to be there right now and it is not raining, though it looks like it might any time :)

Yeah, consider yourself lucky you could be living in Denial (sp?). Or better yet the loverly little town of Drain. Speaking of Drain... there's a defunct cinema there that I think would make a wonderfull 4K screening facility for the mid Northwest area.
Looking for investors for this as we speak. lol

[Joe Aurili]

Tomorrow it's back to Phoenix and almost double the temperature. Not much of a treat either.


Yeah, consider yourself lucky you could be living in Denial (sp?). Or better yet the loverly little town of Drain. Speaking of Drain... there's a defunct cinema there that I think would make a wonderfull 4K screening facility for the mid Northwest area.
Looking for investors for this as we speak. lol

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

That's the first time I've ever heard the words "eastern oregon" and "nicer" put into the same sentence.

You are kidding, too, aren't you? There are only a few places in the U.S. growing faster than Eastern Oregon, one of them is LAS VEGAS. Eastern Oregon is incredibly nice, the weather there is much better than in Portland, and a lot of people who live in the Portland area end up eventually moving to Eastern Oregon.

[chuck colburn]

Eastern Oregon is pretty amazing. Everything from standing on top of the Steens at 10,000 ft. and looking towards the east at dry alkili beds and turning 180 degrees to view one of the most verdent canyons I've ever seen.
And miles upon miles of miniature Grand Canyons etc. etc. Not to mention Hells Canyon which is actually deeper then the Grand Canyon. Oregon is an amazing place. You probally wouldn't like it though so don't bother thinking about moving here.

[Steven M. Bailey]

Yeah, consider yourself lucky you could be living in Denial (sp?). Or better yet the loverly little town of Drain. Speaking of Drain... there's a defunct cinema there that I think would make a wonderfull 4K screening facility for the mid Northwest area.
Looking for investors for this as we speak. lol

A "Down the Drain" 4K film festival would be awesome. Its only four hours north of me. I'll see you there.:biggrin:

The only reason to live in Oregon is the fishing, sand dunes, petting Zoo's, safari's, and the jet-boat cruises on the rogue river. Skiing at Ashland and Bachelor and the Shakespearian festivals! and now the possibility of 4k theater. The place is practically uninhabitable imho.:whistling:

and to top it off no sales tax.

It's not nice to talk about rain when its so dang hot here in california.

[chuck colburn]

"Down the Drain" hahahahahahah
Getting a bit warm down there in Redding aye?
If I drive up to Mt. A and stand on my tippy toes I can almost see that far if it weren't for that darn Mt. Shasta being in the way.

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Ok I just skipped 10 pages so I hope I didn't miss something important but let me put forth a question to everyone who is dissapointed about the diminished lead time of the first few reservation holders.

But there's just one thing to consider here... We don't know if there is a diminished lead time for the first reservation holders. We don't know anything until Jim posts a schedule. Everyone is getting all worked up over speculation. The only thing we do know is that RED is or will be beta testing some new prototypes on some major productions.

If we're going to speculate or just take wild-ass guesses at what we think is going to happen, then here's my guess. RED will ship the first 1110 cameras in the first two months of production. ...Production will hit a snag right after my #1110 rolls off the line and everyone after me will have to wait for another 6 months. :bleh:

Gavin, you didn't miss a thing by skipping pages of this thread.

[Steven M. Bailey]

"Down the Drain" hahahahahahah
Getting a bit warm down there in Redding aye?
If I drive up to Mt. A and stand on my tippy toes I can almost see that far if it weren't for that darn Mt. Shasta being in the way.

I may climb Mt. Lassen tomorrow with my dad and my kids for fathers day. I'll take my binoculars and look for you up there on your tippy toes.

I was reading this thread earlier today when I looked out the window. The mountain to my south, between my house and Redding proper, was on fire. I wish I had my red.

I received my hv20 in the mail today and it was still in the box. I frantically pulled it out of the box, put in a tape, battery and shot 8-10 firetrol bombing runs and helicopter drops. It was kind of cool except that I think that the Zoom feels backwards somehow.

Five bombers and two helicopters made short work of it.

[Poi Boy]

Did you get a chance to put into 24p mode ?
-A

[Steven M. Bailey]

unfortunately not. They were bombing fast and from all directions. I didn't even get a chance to look at the manual. I'm gonna set it to manual in 24p tonight and play with it. I was just glad I bought a tape the other day in anticipation.

[Casey Green]

Hi Jim - and all reservation holders.

(Even though there only seems to be a small % of customers complaining, I thought it would be important to weigh in on this from another perspective - a non-reservation holders POV).

I just wanted to say that (as disappointing as it might feel for early res holders), I believe RED is doing the right thing re: beta testing. I also believe that it may SEEM unfair since it is new information, but really is no different than them testing in house before they are released to customers. After all, as far as I know, these are most likely Jim's own units and they will not be sold to anyone, merely taken on location with field techs, used on production, and then returned to RED for more testing.

If I'm not mistaken, Jim said there were new boards spun that were recently finished... it seems that these new Rev. boards (plus any of the other changes we are unaware of) should be put through all of the grueling conditions of some real-world productions similar to "Crossing the Line", before they are mass produced. What if other hardware issues are discovered in the field? These types of problems are NOT what end-users should be dealing with. It would be terrible for people (as well as RED) to have to send their units back into RED for replacement parts, troubleshooting, etc.

Releasing units that are hardware complete and fully tested, but have incomplete SOFTWARE, is another story, and I believe that most early res holders would be ok with taking delivery of such units. I just don't think they are quite that far yet.

I have worked for major Video Technology companies and I can't stress enough how VITAL it was for us to do real-world testing of our hardware before sending out even the early beta units. However this testing is done does not matter, as long as it reflects real-world production conditions. For a professional cinema camera, there seems no better place than on various professional film sets/locations to test it. If it can survive those conditions, and workflows, then it is ready for the real world.

Again, I understand the sense of a small percent of people with reservations that were hoping to be a part of that hardware beta testing phase, but I do not think that was ever stated by RED. From what I read, the shipping cameras were to be hardware complete, but lacking in some software features in the first 100 or so. Remember also that a production line will be in place at some point to mass produce these. So the beta units will need to be extremely reliable before the production run is given the green light. Then it will most likely slowly ramp up from there like a finely oiled machine, eventually hitting full steam with hundreds of units shipping in a given timeframe.

And last but certainly not least, please keep in mind your unique position here. I have been following RED for a couple of years now, and as some of you know, have done alot on my own to help promote the Camera in various industry circles and productions I have had the priviledge of working on. But because of my financial obligations, I did/do not have the opportunity to put in for a reservation... so for now, I must live vicariously though others, such as yourselves, until I can one day find a way to own one (and hopefully more) of these amazing cameras. Please do not take for granted your fortunate positions!

*This post is not intended as a personal response to anyone in particular on this forum and is only meant to help paint a bigger picture of how this project is being perceived by all walks of life. :) Please don't mistake my good intentions. Thanks so much. (Oh, and Jim... hope to see you at CineGear!)

[Poi Boy]

yeah you did the right thing steven, you wouldn't have gotten the shot. It took me a stupidly long time to find the 24p setting.
Aloha
-A

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Oregon is a beautiful place, no doubt about that, but I can't appreciate the beauty nearly as much when it rains constantly in Portland. I found it just depressing to be stuck there, I can't deal with waking up for weeks and weeks on end and seeing nothing but grey skies, clouds, rain, and feeling cold. It just beats down on you after a while. But I will say one thing, the people up there are really crazy, they are like the 5% of the population that somehow is defective with regards to understanding what "good weather" and "bad weather" mean. There's a reason when it's sunny and nice people say, "What good weather!" because that's the definition of good weather. When it rains people say, "Wow what crappy weather." But people in Oregon are like zombies, they are all, "The rain is so wonderful, I love the rain, it's so great, hearing it beat down on the roof *dreamy look in eyes* The rain is fantastic." Umm, yeah, it's great, it's wonderful walking down the street getting soaked or having to take your umbrella everywhere or having people drive poorly and slow or not being able to go out and enjoy nature because it's so miserable outside. Yup, rain rocks! *rolls eyes* They deserve the rain up there, most of them actually like it. As long as it keeps raining on them so that I can mooch off their water supply down here in L.A. it's all good. I've lived in L.A. for three months now and haven't been rained on a single time. I can only remember once that it has rained in the last three months, when I was looking outside that is, and it was over in about two hours and done for the day.

I wish that most people loved the rain like Oregonians, then they'd all move up to Oregon and L.A. would be much less crowded. Unfortunately, back here in REALITY, people don't love the rain, they hate it, and that's why most of the population lives in places with nice weather like L.A., San Diego, Las Vegas, Phoenix AZ, Texas, etc.

I find there's usually this specific personality trait that makes someone like rain. It's generally a person who is unhappy and wants the world around them to reflect their mood, so they listen to depressing music and they like it to rain, that way they feel like everything else around them is just as miserable with life as they are. My sister was like that for a while, constantly depressed and enjoyed horrible weather. But I'm just the opposite. MY personality type is if I'm depressed, I want to listen to UPBEAT music and see SUNSHINE so that it makes me happy again! ;) That's much better. When you're going to school and you don't do as well as you hoped on that test, but you walk outside and it's 80 degrees, sunny, light breeze, you just shrug it off like, "Eh, oh well, it's too beautiful to be worried about that anymore." Versus walking outside when it's raining and you basically want to go home and slash your wrists, haha.

My dad is a life-long Oregonian, but he has a house in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, and even before that he went there constantly, so he manages to get out of that rainhole-of-the-world frequently enough to avoid insanity.

[Poi Boy]

I'm not quite sure what to say about your rain issues..Hmmm. oh I know, I'll use the one my kids use; "whatever"
Aloha
-A

[Andrew Benz]

Gavin, you didn't miss a thing by skipping pages of this thread.

Yes this thread has become as useless as tits on a mule (southern colloquialism for our non U.S. friends). Can we get lockdown?

[readyandaction]

Hi Jim - and all reservation holders.

(Even though there only seems to be a small % of customers complaining, I thought it would be important to weigh in on this from another perspective - a non-reservation holders POV).

I just wanted to say that (as disappointing as it might feel for early res holders), I believe RED is doing the right thing re: beta testing. I also believe that it may SEEM unfair since it is new information, but really is no different than them testing in house before they are released to customers. After all, as far as I know, these are most likely Jim's own units and they will not be sold to anyone, merely taken on location with field techs, used on production, and then returned to RED for more testing.

If I'm not mistaken, Jim said there were new boards spun that were recently finished... it seems that these new Rev. boards (plus any of the other changes we are unaware of) should be put through all of the grueling conditions of some real-world productions similar to "Crossing the Line", before they are mass produced. What if other hardware issues are discovered in the field? These types of problems are NOT what end-users should be dealing with. It would be terrible for people (as well as RED) to have to send their units back into RED for replacement parts, troubleshooting, etc.

Releasing units that are hardware complete and fully tested, but have incomplete SOFTWARE, is another story, and I believe that most early res holders would be ok with taking delivery of such units. I just don't think they are quite that far yet.

I have worked for major Video Technology companies and I can't stress enough how VITAL it was for us to do real-world testing of our hardware before sending out even the early beta units. However this testing is done does not matter, as long as it reflects real-world production conditions. For a professional cinema camera, there seems no better place than on various professional film sets/locations to test it. If it can survive those conditions, and workflows, then it is ready for the real world.

Again, I understand the sense of a small percent of people with reservations that were hoping to be a part of that hardware beta testing phase, but I do not think that was ever stated by RED. From what I read, the shipping cameras were to be hardware complete, but lacking in some software features in the first 100 or so. Remember also that a production line will be in place at some point to mass produce these. So the beta units will need to be extremely reliable before the production run is given the green light. Then it will most likely slowly ramp up from there like a finely oiled machine, eventually hitting full steam with hundreds of units shipping in a given timeframe.

And last but certainly not least, please keep in mind your unique position here. I have been following RED for a couple of years now, and as some of you know, have done alot on my own to help promote the Camera in various industry circles and productions I have had the priviledge of working on. But because of my financial obligations, I did/do not have the opportunity to put in for a reservation... so for now, I must live vicariously though others, such as yourselves, until I can one day find a way to own one (and hopefully more) of these amazing cameras. Please do not take for granted your fortunate positions!

*This post is not intended as a personal response to anyone in particular on this forum and is only meant to help paint a bigger picture of how this project is being perceived by all walks of life. :) Please don't mistake my good intentions. Thanks so much. (Oh, and Jim... hope to see you at CineGear!)

verry well stated. I wait for upcoming news.

[Roberto B]

Shawn... I've always liked you. But I disagree with you on this point.

Thanks again for my NAB present.

Jim


Okay, thanks for noticing. I am glad you disagree! I'm simply noticing that the window between when my camera is ready and when everyone else's is ready appears to be narrowing. If this isn't the case or if there is some other advantage to being #27 that I don't know of, then I'm cool. I mean, I really am just talking about whether I get the cherry on the banana split at this point. Please don't mistake my questions or comments for genuine grousing.

I'm glad you like the present! I enjoyed getting to meet you.


it's not difficult to understand what shawn want to mean..

he isn't just a jerk like so many here.. i know this hurts because this is a friendly forum.. blablabla.. BUT:

as real RED SUPPORTER WITH MY MONEY (bringing others with me..) LIKE MORE THAN 1500 RESERVATION HOLDERS (and not only as a virtual poster magnifying a cool entrepreneur..), letting the film gurus going here.. dictating the rules, it's not really a clever attitude..

the same for the manufacturer.. letting any manufacturer dictating the rules of the game, it's not really a (much) clever attitude..

[Häakon]

Yes this thread has become as useless as tits on a mule (southern colloquialism for our non U.S. friends). Can we get lockdown?
Agreed, and request granted.